Israel

[InkaUtexas 25944]

It is genocide. Israel is playing like the Serbs did in their siege of Sarajevo.

Open up an aid corridor, get international forces to provide movement security. Base it out of Egypt and fuck Bibi.

Use their SF to get Hamas. Not 155mm rounds and 500 pound bombs.

[bolverk 29675]

New plans: Take more destruction of housing & land for a buffer zone, long-term military occupation, civilian collaboration, Israeli control of education & welfare in addition to the current authority over telecoms & utilities, and continued opposition to any foreign recognition of a Palestinian state.

The only democracy in the Middle East?

Netanyahu’s postwar plans for Gaza are at odds with some allies’ positions.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel released on Friday his most detailed vision yet for a postwar Gaza, pledging to retain indefinite military control over the enclave while ceding the administration of civilian life to Gazans without links to Hamas.

The plan, if realized, would make it almost impossible to establish a contiguous Palestinian state in Gaza and the Israeli-occupied West Bank, at least in the short term. That would likely accelerate a clash between Israel and a growing number of its foreign partners, including the United States, that are pushing for Palestinian sovereignty after the war ends.

Mr. Netanyahu released his plan on the day that Israeli, Qatari, U.S. and Egyptian officials were set to meet in Paris in an effort to advance a deal for a cease-fire and the release of hostages captured by Hamas and its allies in their Oct. 7 attacks. While Israeli officials have indicated that they are open to making a deal to pause fighting and free captives, they have steadfastly rejected pressure to move toward a permanent cease-fire, insisting that they are prepared to wage a protracted campaign to destroy Hamas.

Mr. Netanyahu’s plan envisions the creation of an Israeli-controlled buffer zone along the length of Gaza’s border with Egypt, a move that risks inflaming tensions with the Egyptian government. That aspect of the plan would require Israel to invade Rafah, the southernmost city of Gaza, where most Gazans are currently sheltering, risking their mass displacement onto Egyptian territory, an outcome that Egypt has repeatedly warned against.

The plan also says Israel will seek to retain control over a sliver of land inside Gaza along the Israeli border, where its military is systematically demolishing thousands of buildings in order to create another buffer zone. Israel’s intention is to make it harder for militants in Gaza to repeat a raid like that of Oct. 7, in which Israeli officials say some 1,200 people were killed, although the United States and others have spoken out against any effort to reduce the size of Gaza.

The plan was circulated to cabinet ministers and journalists in the early hours of Friday morning. Though Mr. Netanyahu has laid out most of the proposals in public statements, this is the first time that he has collected them in a single document.

The plan does not say whether Israeli settlers would be allowed to re-establish communities on Gazan soil, as Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing supporters are pushing for. A senior government official, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss a matter that puts the prime minister at odds with his base, said that there were no plans to resettle Gaza with Jews, but declined to say so on the record, leaving Mr. Netanyahu with room for maneuver in the future.

Israel dismantled its settlements in Gaza in 2005, while maintaining control over its airspace, access to the sea, population registry and telecommunication networks.

Other parts of the plan include:

• Handing administrative control to “local stakeholders with managerial experience” who are “not affiliated with countries or entities that support terrorism.” The reference to terrorism aims to exclude anyone that Israel says has connections to Hamas. And while the document does not explicitly mention the Palestinian Authority, the body that administers parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank, the reference to local residents implicitly rules out the involvement of the authority’s leadership in the postwar set-up — a position that is at odds with that of the Biden administration.
• The dismantling of UNRWA, the main U.N. agency operating in Gaza. Israel has accused 30 UNRWA workers of participating in the Oct. 7 attack. UNRWA’s leaders say the agency tries to ensure its 13,000 employees in Gaza uphold standards of neutrality, but they say it is not possible to track the private allegiances of all its employees.
• The overhaul of the Gazan education and welfare systems. Israel says schools and other public institutions in Gaza foment extremism.
• Opposing foreign recognition of a Palestinian state. The plan says that a final resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict can only be achieved through bilateral talks between the two sides — an implicit rejection of hints by countries including Britain and France that they could unilaterally recognize a Palestinian state. Mr. Netanyahu has previously rejected the concept of an independent Palestinian state, but his plan released on Friday did not explicitly rule it out.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33871]

this is nutty. this is second time I am aware of this weapon being used. this shit is crazy. the projectile doesn't explode, it just ginsu's whomever is in its path.

 

[Anastasis 23469]

On 2/22/2024 at 2:34 PM, nbmishoid said:

Agreed.   Shameful.  Each additional day.

American taxpayer dollars funding ethnic cleansing right in front of our eyes. Fun stuff.  

[hobbes2702 13033]

Remember all the “well what should they do” in this thread and the replies of “not genocide”. Weird how that played out.

Edited February 23 by hobbes2702

[Anastasis 23469]

If only the good ole days when Israel was just bulldozing a rando house every once in awhile, settlers stealing orchards, IDF boot prints in the shape of the star of david literally on the face of palestinians, killing journalists and then deploying police to beat people up at their funerals, incarcerating the random juvenile and shoving a broom stick up their ass during interrogation. Simpler times. Back when it was easy for people to deflect and they could act like they weren't paying attention.    

[Brian Fantana 6689]

 

[David Dennison 18860]

On 2/23/2024 at 3:52 PM, Anastasis said:

American taxpayer dollars funding ethnic cleansing right in front of our eyes. Fun stuff.  

We hold these truths to be self evident, yada, yada, yada.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23367]

Gotta wonder if the MAGA cult is as committed as that serviceman. 

Edited February 26 by Hugo Stiglitz

[Brian Fantana 6689]

https://time.com/6821425/israel-embassy-air-force-protest-fire-self-immolation-aaron-bushnell-latest-updates/

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

On 2/14/2024 at 3:18 AM, PRONG HORN said:

Imagine if a bunch of Native Americans did here what happened a few months ago in Israel.  Violence is never the answer, but I would have a pretty good appreciation of the reasons why.

As poorly as we treat/have treated the Native Americans, the Israelis treat the Palestinians much, much worse. At least the Native Americans are all U.S. citizens, can vote, and are even eligible to be President.

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

On 2/23/2024 at 10:53 AM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

this is nutty. this is second time I am aware of this weapon being used. this shit is crazy. the projectile doesn't explode, it just ginsu's whomever is in its path.

 

The first being the time they took out the IS leader in Syria, right?

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/09/drone-strike-islamic-state-leader-syria-00105334

[YGIFS 19450]

47 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

As poorly as we treat/have treated the Native Americans, the Israelis treat the Palestinians much, much worse. At least the Native Americans are all U.S. citizens, can vote, and are even eligible to be President.

Yes, I’m sure the millions of Native Americans annihilated by disease and genocidal extermination are super excited one of their descendants can be President one day.  You know that thing we totally know will never fucking happen.  
 

All Yahweh and Allah had to do was just show them all a map of the whole world instead of just one small region of it.  Instead they all got stuck in a bag to fight it out.  I’m starting to think none of this real.  

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Yeah I mean the only material differences are we allow them to be citizens and we don't bomb the parcels of land we allow them to have.

[YGIFS 19450]

Parcels of land?  I dunno.  Sounds like a big gamble. 
 

I’ll see myself out. 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33871]

1 hour ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The first being the time they took out the IS leader in Syria, right?

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/07/09/drone-strike-islamic-state-leader-syria-00105334

yeah, that was the first time I was aware of the weapon used. I suppose if we can guide bombs down chimneys, we can direct a human spiralizer to its target

[RomaVicta 29908]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:53 AM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

this is nutty. this is second time I am aware of this weapon being used. this shit is crazy. the projectile doesn't explode, it just ginsu's whomever is in its path.

 

I remember reading about them years ago. It limits collateral damage to whomever is in the car.

You can see the ruptured roof. In the full screen view, it looks like the windows have blood curtains.  I'm glad we didn't blow up the guys on the sidewalk enjoying the Bagdhad evening air. I'm sure they appreciate it and love us for it.

Edited February 26 by RomaVicta
Errant comma

[Anastasis 23469]

Matthew Miller in rare form today. I miss Ned. 

 

 

 

[HenryJames 66055]

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/02/world/middleeast/gaza-deaths.html

[Bozo_Casanova 26462]

On 2/26/2024 at 9:48 AM, RomaVicta said:

I remember reading about them years ago. It limits collateral damage to whomever is in the car.

You can see the ruptured roof. In the full screen view, it looks like the windows have blood curtains.  I'm glad we didn't blow up the guys on the sidewalk enjoying the Bagdhad evening air. I'm sure they appreciate it and love us for it.

 

[bolverk 29675]

1 hour ago, HenryJames said:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/02/world/middleeast/gaza-deaths.html

30,000+ dead—one in 73 Gaza residents. Two-thirds are women and children. So many smiling faces are gone forever.

[Anastasis 23469]

1 hour ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 

Good to see a check in from Mr decency Pax Americana every once in a while. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26462]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Good to see a check in from Mr decency Pax Americana every once in a while. 

Pax America ended a while back, Mr Burn-it-all-down.  Great work, by the way.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

This been posted in here yet?

https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/

[Anastasis 23469]

29 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

Pax America ended a while back, Mr Burn-it-all-down.  Great work, by the way.

Unsurprised to hear crickets from you. 

[HenryJames 66055]

On 2/23/2024 at 9:53 AM, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

this is nutty. this is second time I am aware of this weapon being used. this shit is crazy. the projectile doesn't explode, it just ginsu's whomever is in its path.

 

[DDD Dad 14339]

13 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

This been posted in here yet?

https://theintercept.com/2024/02/28/new-york-times-anat-schwartz-october-7/

That article appears to suffer from many of the same issues of which it accuses the NYT. 

[WhatTheBuck 28781]

15 hours ago, bolverk said:

30,000+ dead—one in 73 Gaza residents. Two-thirds are women and children. So many smiling faces are gone forever.

What is the number where we decide that what Israel has done to the Palestinians in Gaza is worse than what Hamas did to the Israelis on Oct. 7?

[BrickHorn 18235]

10 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

What is the number where we decide that what Israel has done to the Palestinians in Gaza is worse than what Hamas did to the Israelis on Oct. 7?

I don’t know exactly but, whatever the number is, they hit it in 1948.

Edited March 3 by BrickHorn

[Anastasis 23469]

16 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

I don’t know exactly but, whatever the number is, they hit it in 1948.

But you see terrorism. Never mind that the nation of Israel was built on terrorism. 

[Brian Fantana 6689]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

That article appears to suffer from many of the same issues of which it accuses the NYT. 

Elaborate?

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

That article appears to suffer from many of the same issues of which it accuses the NYT. 

Elaborate?

e: Do it twice, apparently

Edited March 3 by Brian Fantana

[tx 3 putt 76958]

One more to go ….

 

[956 Worldwide 34715]

6 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

That article appears to suffer from many of the same issues of which it accuses the NYT. 

 

LOL at citing “Electronic Intifada” and Max Blumenthal/“The Grayzone.” 

 

[bolverk 29675]

Another report of abuse of Palestinian detainees, including sexual abuse and torture. "Its findings echo those of several Israeli and Palestinian rights groups, as well as separate investigations by two U.N. special rapporteurs, all of whom allege similar abuses inside Israeli detention centers."

[Brian Fantana 6689]

10 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

LOL at citing “Electronic Intifada” and Max Blumenthal/“The Grayzone.” 

 

Yes, the article certainly suffers from some of the same issues, but that doesn't change the fact that a lot of shit in that front page, national news NYT piece was little more than hearsay, or worse, completely made up whole cloth.

A lot of those points were parroted repeatedly in this thread, including by yourself.

But hey, by all means, take this as absolution you genocidal robotic freak.

[RomaVicta 29908]

17 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

One more to go ….

 

Even Hamas has a guy doing the horns down. Must've gone to A&M Qatar.

[RomaVicta 29908]

I subscribe to the NYT internet version. I find this objectionable:

Calling this brutal invasion a "war" is a lie that sugar coats what is actually going on. This is more like the NAZI army clearing the ghettos of Warsaw.

Israel nakedly shows its goal: expulsion by any means:

Any means including starvation:

 

We're complicit, and I hate it.

This is not a war. The news media won't call this what it is.

Another defeat for the obvious. Such a strange world this has become.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

2 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Are you implying that Oct. 7th was justified then by the past tragedies inflicted, i.e. "...1948"?

Please read the thread before you start slinging shit all over it. That very clearly is not what @BrickHorn is saying, but nice try. We're not going to play this game with you, this type of bad faith argument has been tried many times in this thread before and you're just going to embarrass yourself.

Try again.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

24 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

It read to me as an attempt at a moral equivalency, to minimize the most recent powderkeg in the long standing Palestine/Israel feud.

Nobody thinks Oct. 7 was good.

[Brisketexan 105142]

Nobody thinks Oct. 7 was good.

I know that people say that.
But what they have consistently refused to say is what Israel should do/should have done in response. It’s easy to say “well…not what they’re doing.” But if your position is NOT “oh well, Hamas gets away with Oct 7, so sad too bad,” then you would get credibility if you suggested a meaningful course of action for Israel.
And again, pushing that query does not excuse or absolve Israel for the overreach and atrocities of its current campaign in Gaza - I’m just suggesting that a credible position is one that says “Israel should have done X, instead of the Y it is doing.”
Understand that most of us are pretty much out of sympathy for either “side,” broadly speaking, in this conflict. The actions of the chosen and supported leadership for each have opted for the most bellicose path, time after time.

[Anastasis 23469]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Understand that most of us are pretty much out of sympathy for either “side,” broadly speaking, in this conflict.

And yet we continue to arm and fund Israel military activities and run interference at the UN and from the podium. Not only that, but we are using emergency declarations to expedite the process.

Alternative approaches have been offered multiple times on this thread, including unleashing Mossad in targeted fashion against Hamas leadership. 

And yet we still have posters here deflecting from what is systematic collective punishment at best, outright ethnic cleansing at worst and throwing their hands up in the air saying, "what alternatives do they have?" 

['stache 21815]

31 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I know that people say that.
But what they have consistently refused to say is what Israel should do/should have done in response. It’s easy to say “well…not what they’re doing.” But if your position is NOT “oh well, Hamas gets away with Oct 7, so sad too bad,” then you would get credibility if you suggested a meaningful course of action for Israel.
And again, pushing that query does not excuse or absolve Israel for the overreach and atrocities of its current campaign in Gaza - I’m just suggesting that a credible position is one that says “Israel should have done X, instead of the Y it is doing.”
Understand that most of us are pretty much out of sympathy for either “side,” broadly speaking, in this conflict. The actions of the chosen and supported leadership for each have opted for the most bellicose path, time after time.

I've said it several times. They should treat Hamas as terrorists and not representatives of 2 million residents of Gaza. Hamas should be tracked and hunted strategically, not just bomb the shit out of the entire region. 

[RomaVicta 29908]

49 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And again, pushing that query does not excuse or absolve Israel for the overreach and atrocities of its current campaign in Gaza - I’m just suggesting that a credible position is one that says “Israel should have done X, instead of the Y it is doing.”

Well, they could start by not lying about their goal in Gaza and justifying it by pointing to the horrors of October.

Using an accusation of lack of imagination for presenting a solution to how Israel should deal with Hamas was indeed used to cover Israel's air bombardment of Gaza and the early part of the ensuing ground invasion. 

What are they supposed to do? There have been answers to this including two independent states; cease colonization of land cede to Palestinians; use precision attacks. The answer has been consistently, "well, that hasn't/won't work."

First, the above paragraph is not license for Israel to execute murder from the air, murder on the ground, or murder by deprivation and starvation until a better policy is discovered. 

Second, the issue is no longer what Israel should do to destroy Hamas. The issue is what is actually happening: a ruthless, brutal campaign to terrorize a population into leaving their homeland. 

And we're complicit. We're all pearl clutching and talking about how bad things are. Until we cease support for Israel as a response to this action, we're abetting them.

Edited March 4 by RomaVicta
I see Anastasis and 'Stache have antipated my response. Compliments.

[Brian Fantana 6689]

43 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I know that people say that. But what they have consistently refused to say is what Israel should do/should have done in response.

You're literally just trolling at this point.

Edited March 4 by Brian Fantana

[Captainant 27669]

23 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

And yet we continue to arm and fund Israel military activities and run interference at the UN and from the podium. Not only that, but we are using emergency declarations to expedite the process.

Alternative approaches have been offered multiple times on this thread, including unleashing Mossad in targeted fashion against Hamas leadership. 

And yet we still have posters here deflecting from what is systematic collective punishment at best, outright ethnic cleansing at worst and throwing their hands up in the air saying, "what alternatives do they have?" 

Evangelical fundamentalism is a hell of a drug. Much of what's motivating the support for Israel is that its existence is a condition for Jesus to return

[Brisketexan 105142]

30 minutes ago, 'stache said:

I've said it several times. They should treat Hamas as terrorists and not representatives of 2 million residents of Gaza. Hamas should be tracked and hunted strategically, not just bomb the shit out of the entire region. 

As to your first sentence, it's a false premise -- although its falsity shouldn't change the calculus in this case.  Whether we like it or not, Hamas is the representative government of the residents of Gaza.  It's support went UP after the October 7th attacks.  It's a big fucking problem for Gaza....just like it's a big fucking problem for Israel that it has chosen a government that is the most bellicose, uncompromising, genocidal government they could select.  Yes, a large plurality of Israelis do not support Bibi's government....but enough of them have over the years to empower it, and a large plurality LIKES what the government is doing.  I noted it in an earlier discussion -- it really only takes around 30% of the population to opt for the shittiest, bloodiest of paths, to send a state/government down that path.  Gaza's path has been tied to Hamas and is still tied to Hamas.  That's fucking bad.  As bad as Israel's path being tied to Bibi's government.

As to your second sentence, I'm all about it.  I agree, that's what should have been done: limited broad military action (I'd allow for limited airstrikes and cross-border combined arms assaults, but with discretion and specific targeted purpose and yield, but we'd really only be quibbling about the methodology for "tracked and hunted strategically.").  Because the "bomb the shit out of everything" approach is shit from every angle: it's chock-full of war criming, it's not particularly effective at rooting out Hamas, and it is cementing Israel's status as a global pariah (is that standard evenly applied?  Of course not.  E.g., Iran says Israel is evil for bombing civilian areas, as it happily supplies Russia with weapons to do just that.  But, of course, as noted above by @RomaVicta, we suffer from the same inconsistency: condemning bombing of civilians in Ukraine, while supplying Israel hardware to do just that in Gaza.  Regardless of whether you think Israel's war against Gaza is just vs. Russia's unjust invasion, knowing what Israel is doing and will do with our weapons makes us culpable).

But @RomaVicta, my "accusation of lack of imagination for presenting a solution to how Israel should deal with Hamas" stands.  The world (especially including those parties critical of Israel today) missed the opportunity to set the tone and expectations.  A clear and simple statement to the effect of "Israel has a right to defend itself from these horrific attacks and the continuing threat from Hamas as an armed threat.  Israel should exercise that right with necessary force, tempered with the restraint necessary to protect all civilians in Gaza.  Its response should be targeted and methodical, waged against Hamas operatives only, while minimizing the risk/harm to civilians.  That may take time and patience, but the requirement that civilians not be unduly harmed requires that patience.  We will support Israel in such effort.  We will not support Israel waging war against civilian populations" would have gotten out in front of shit and set a standard that Israel could then be called out on, cleanly and unambiguously, when it violated them.   We told you the conditions for our support.  You violated them.  We do not support you in doing so.

The fact that the debate has descended to where it always does -- whose long-term grievances are the most meritorious?...is why nothing ever gets fixed.  Is it the grievances of the Palestinians, who have chosen terrorism and violence over and over....but who have also eaten a shit sandwich in the region since 1948?  Is it Israel and the jews, who have chosen genocidal tactics and exclusionary expansion instead of a path of peaceful co-existence.....but who have also been under constant attack/threat since their founding, and if you are to characterize them as "colonizers," how would one characterize the millions of Israelis who were expelled from other states and have no "colonizing country of origin" to return to?  We're never going to settle that argument.  People are entrenched, they will not move, and that is that.  Israel is an evil colonizer.  Palestinians are brutal animals.  And on and on, no minds will change.  So maybe that's a pointless fucking debate to have.  Skip it.  Figure out how a path of belligerence can become one of non-belligerence.  That's the best we can do.  And yeah, I'm disappointed that nobody seems to be pushing it very hard.  Maybe the US admin is making some tiny progress behind the scenes, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Edited March 4 by Brisketexan

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Hmm I wonder where you copy pasted that from

[Brian Fantana 6689]

Also, I absolutely love the sections in the copy pasted part that betray how you really feel. You know, how you were posting about this directly after Oct. 7th as opposed to how you have reshaped your posting on this topic since. I still see right through you.

[Brisketexan 105142]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Hmm I wonder where you copy pasted that from

I assure you that my half-assed thoughts are mine alone.

And yes, I've grown increasingly frustrated and angry with Israel's response since it began.  Are we not supposed to adjust our thinking and opinions based on continuing developments?  Although I'm pretty sure that my responses in the week or so after October 7th included some version of the phrase "measured/targeted response."  But I haven't taken the time to go back and dig through the threads.

Oh, I've also learned a lot by watching the tennis match between the two "sides" on this thread.  Yeah, it's pretty fucking clear that one contingent....even though they pay minimal lip service to Israel's right to exist....view Israel primarily as evil colonizers who really should accede to circumstances that would lead to extinction of the state and massive violence against the jews within it.  And it's also pretty fucking clear that the other contingent views the Palestinians as evil mooslem animals who all like beheading infidels, so someone might as well wipe 'em off the map.

Sue me for being disgusted with both.

Edited March 4 by Brisketexan

[BrickHorn 18235]

2 hours ago, BeardIP said:

Are you implying that Oct. 7th was justified then by the past tragedies inflicted, i.e. "...1948"?

No, that was not my intent at all.