Israel

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

10 minutes ago, statsman said:

There actually is a definition for anti-semitism, and it goes into a lot of detail. 
 
https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/

It has some examples- holding Israel to a standard other nations aren’t held to, using the language of the Holocaust against Jews (such as “they’re acting like Nazis”), holding individual Jews accountable for the actions of Israel. Those are all anti-Semitic actions, per the definition. 
 
Maybe you disagree with the definition. If so, it would be helpful if you clarified, perhaps using financial lingo, “When I say this, you have to understand that I only mind ‘strong form anti-semitism’, not weak form”

Who are you talking to here, or are you just yelling at clouds again? Go on, spit it out. You're clearly aching to accuse someone here, so just do it instead of being a pussy.

Honestly you should have been banned months ago for doing this exact thing, but I'm bored so I'm willing to entertain your blathering again.

[DDD Dad 14,331]

@Brian Fantana@Rex Kramer

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

9 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

@Brian Fantana@Rex Kramer

Either put me on ignore or shut the fuck up. You know damn well by now that I'm not going to keep quiet.

Either way, fuck off.

Edited August 14 by Brian Fantana

[Foosters 17,844]

Guys, cut Rex some slack. Its obvious that he personally knows Madison and is simply relaying what Madison told him.

At least that's what I'm assuming based on his confidence unsupported by any actual evidence.

[DDD Dad 14,331]

5 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Either put me on ignore or shut the fuck up. You know damn well by now that I'm not going to keep quiet.

Either way, fuck off.

Look, if you and Rex want to swing your dicks at each other maybe find somewhere else to do it.  You're just thread shitting at this point.

[immamac 42,838]

This thread is so terrible. 

[wildcat09 29,348]

33 minutes ago, Foosters said:

Guys, cut Rex some slack. Its obvious that he personally knows Madison and is simply relaying what Madison told him.

At least that's what I'm assuming based on his confidence unsupported by any actual evidence.

He HAS assured us that his history is unassailable.  

[Huckleberry 32,850]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

There actually is a definition for anti-semitism, and it goes into a lot of detail. 
 
https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/

It has some examples- holding Israel to a standard other nations aren’t held to...

This logic makes me anti-American; I guess those MAGAts were right all along.

Edited August 14 by Huckleberry

[wildcat09 29,348]

On the double-standards WRT Israel vis a vis other democracies: I'm pretty sure that those of us here who are upset about Israel using mass starvation of a civilian population as a method of war would also be pissed if, say, Canada did the same thing. 

[Dahobbs 17,529]

1 hour ago, Foosters said:

Guys, cut Rex some slack. Its obvious that he personally knows Madison and is simply relaying what Madison told him.

At least that's what I'm assuming based on his confidence unsupported by any actual evidence.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the attacks on him at this point. While I disagree with some of his positions and think he is wrong on this particular issue, I also think he has been honestly engaging in this debate. Some folks troll, and maybe he has had a past reputation for that, but I don't see him doing that here. 

[bolverk 29,659]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

There actually is a definition for anti-semitism, and it goes into a lot of detail. 
 
https://www.state.gov/defining-antisemitism/

It has some examples- holding Israel to a standard other nations aren’t held to, using the language of the Holocaust against Jews (such as “they’re acting like Nazis”), holding individual Jews accountable for the actions of Israel. Those are all anti-Semitic actions, per the definition. 
 
Maybe you disagree with the definition. If so, it would be helpful if you clarified, perhaps using financial lingo, “When I say this, you have to understand that I only mind ‘strong form anti-semitism’, not weak form”

What standard is that?

Off the top of your head, name another country that is illegally occupying internationally recognized territory that belongs to an oppressed people while resettling and/or annexing that land for its own citizens.

Spoiler

Russia

And what are we doing right now about it?

Spoiler

Supplying them with military hardware to defeat the occupiers.

But we're (the US) not doing that in Israel's case, so I guess we're actually holding them to a lower standard than others.

I know I'd be pissed if the UK decided it was time to retake Ireland and told them: "Okay, you can administer and provide security for 18% of the land, but only in around a few cities, like Dublin, Cork, and Galway. Also, we reserve the right to conduct raids or bulldoze houses in these cities, and you can't do anything about it. You Irish can live in this other part that's 21% of Ireland, but we provide the security. Finally, you may not live on the other 61% of your land, since we claim that as our "security zone" that we will resettle with only Brits."

To be frank, I wish we'd hold Israel to the same standard as we do all our other allies.

[Nivek 16,923]

17 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

On the double-standards WRT Israel vis a vis other democracies: I'm pretty sure that those of us here who are upset about Israel using mass starvation of a civilian population as a method of war would also be pissed if, say, Canada did the same thing. 

Would we really?  I guess it depends on who is getting starved.

[Rex Kramer 1,334]

4 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

You're absolutely wrong. Look at how the colonies attempted to protest their treatment. They absolutely were critical of crown, and did so in dramatic ways including destroying a bunch of fucking tea in an event that is widely celebrated today. And they absolutely were in favor of openly discussing "burning down" an existing government. That's what the fucking revolution was after all. Madison himself was strongly opposed to the Alien and Sedition Acts (which essentially made inciting hatred of the government illegal). He viewed the acts as blatantly unconstitutional. Madison thought that even though freedom of the press may result in some abuse, that it was better to leave a few "noxious branches" than to cut away the "proper fruits". 

Flag burning was mentioned by fantana. Boston Tea Party of Madison’s day, more destructive to the mothership than burning a flag, would suggest I’m wrong in my supposition of what he was thinking at the time. However, I seriously doubt Madison and like minded crafters of the FA wrote it with terrorist sympathizers, wanting to eradicate any culture reminiscent of the colonies, Britain, Europe, etc.

Again, I’m not against this speech. It’s protected. I just take issue with Madison’s purported intent here. 

[Rex Kramer 1,334]

2 hours ago, Foosters said:

Guys, cut Rex some slack. Its obvious that he personally knows Madison and is simply relaying what Madison told him.

At least that's what I'm assuming based on his confidence unsupported by any actual evidence.

Madison’s descendants are my rich buddies. Not only did they tell me his intent, they also told me they’d never NIL on Surly. 

[DDD Dad 14,331]

2 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Madison’s descendants are my rich buddies. Not only did they tell me his intent, they also told me they’d never NIL on Surly. 

Do they dip on planes?

[Rex Kramer 1,334]

4 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Do they dip on planes?

They’re Madisons dude. Zyn 6 Peppermint. They also drink transfusions on the golf course with popped collars. 

Edited August 14 by Rex Kramer

[Dahobbs 17,529]

5 minutes ago, Rex Kramer said:

Flag burning was mentioned by fantana. Boston Tea Party of Madison’s day, more destructive to the mothership than burning a flag, would suggest I’m wrong in my supposition of what he was thinking at the time. However, I seriously doubt Madison and like minded crafters of the FA wrote it with terrorist sympathizers, wanting to eradicate any culture reminiscent of the colonies, Britain, Europe, etc.

Again, I’m not against this speech. It’s protected. I just take issue with Madison’s purported intent here. 

I think you're misrepresenting the beliefs of the protesters, but setting that aside, if the term were in use at the time, the revolutionaries in the colonies would have been described as terrorists by the British. As such, he very much had in mind "terrorists" sympathizers as we now use the term.  But, even assuming Madison would have found the protestors' beliefs and behavior repugnant, he was very clearly of the view that allowing such speech was a necessary evil in order to allow the good aspects of free speech to thrive. That's the whole point of his "noxious branch" metaphor. 

[immamac 42,838]

They are both taking a day off. Too much shit posting going on. 

[hpslugga 4,058]

2 hours ago, immamac said:

This thread is so terrible. 

Again, it’s been like that for almost a year. The amount of bullshit, not to mention sheer moral depravity, that’s been slung around here since October 7th has been absolutely, unbelievably breathtaking. 

[immamac 42,838]

7 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

Again, it’s been like that for almost a year. The amount of bullshit, not to mention sheer moral depravity, that’s been slung around here since October 7th has been absolutely, unbelievably breathtaking. 

I can't wait for this election to be over. It's ruining everyone's brain. 

[mdmost 43,001]

This is standard Rex Kramer stuff. It's why I have him on ignore. It's just not worth dealing with someone who just wants to argue all day long.

[hpslugga 4,058]

Just now, immamac said:

I can't wait for this election to be over. It's ruining everyone's brain. 

Oh the election will have precious little effect on the bu-fucking-foonery that’s gone on in this particular thread. Other threads? Yes. Even other boards? Maybe. But this one? No. No, the bullshit will continue as long as this needless cycle of violence persists. We’re gonna keep reading the same bullshit excuses and the same bullshit make believe stories.

[Blotto 23,491]

4 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

This might be the dumbest thing you've ever said. It's got a whole lot of competition, but goddamn.

Who do we have to talk to get the ball rolling on an official name change from the "Dunning-Kruger" effect to the "Porterhouse-Kramer" effect. 

[chainsaw 9,861]

https://zeteo.com/p/poll-harris-democrats-gaza-ceasefire-arms-embargo

Quote

A significant share of Democrats and independent voters in pivotal swing states Pennsylvania, Georgia, and Arizona are more likely to vote for the Democratic presidential nominee (presumptively Kamala Harris) if said nominee pledges support for an arms embargo to Israel, and if President Joe Biden secures a permanent ceasefire in Gaza. The findings come in new polling commissioned by the Institute for Middle Eastern Understanding Policy Project and conducted by polling firm YouGov.

In Pennsylvania, 34% of respondents said they would be more likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if the nominee vowed to withhold weapons to Israel, compared to 7% who said they would be less likely. The rest said it would make no difference. In Arizona, 35% said they’d be more likely, while 5% would be less likely. And in Georgia, 39% said they’d be more likely, also compared to 5% who would be less likely.

Similar results were found when respondents were asked separately if they were more or less likely to vote for the Democratic nominee if Biden called for an end to US.-funded weapons to Israel or if the US president secured a ceasefire.

The results were particularly stark when looking at responses by those who voted for Biden in 2020 and are currently undecided. In Pennsylvania, 57% of such voters said they’d be more likely to support the Democratic nominee if they pledged to withhold additional weapons to Israel for committing human rights abuses; in Arizona, 44% said the same; in Georgia, 34% said so.

“This polling clearly shows that if the Democrats want Vice President Harris to be the strongest nominee possible going into November, then they should be demanding that President Biden stop the flow of weapons to Israel and secure a permanent ceasefire immediately,” IMEU Policy Project Executive Director Margaret DeReus said in a statement. “Not only are these policies popular, but they actually move voters from the ‘undecided’ or ‘not voting’ column and into the Democrats’ column in the states Democrats will need to win.”

Harris leads Trump in Pennsylvania by 2.1%, Arizona by 0.7%, and Georgia by 0.1%, according to the data-driven news site FiveThirtyEight’s polling averages as of Aug. 14.

 

[TwiceHorn 31,440]

On 8/13/2024 at 6:46 PM, Rex Kramer said:

The first amendment was designed for people to proclaim the society that has provided for them should be dismantled?

Exactly what do you think the founding fathers were doing?  They were quite successful under British rule.

 

10 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

. It was NOT crafted with terrorist sympathizers and flag burners in mind.

Do you not think the king and his loyal subjects branded the Founding Fathers and many of their associates terrorists and terrorist sympathizers? https://history.stackexchange.com/questions/14373/are-there-cases-of-u-s-founding-fathers-burning-flags-of-other-nations#17229

The Founding Fathers were wary of their experiment and knew that it could be turned into an instrument of tyranny, likely by a foolish populace voting in  demagogue tyrants, hence the resistance to pure democracy embodied in the Senate and Electoral College.

Regardless, with the First and Second Amendments, they purposely built in the seeds of destruction, or at least serious modification, of their fledgling republic, in case it went wrong.  They specifically contemplated dissent short of violence and even violent overthrow of the new American republic.

What's a more controversial idea is whether they intended to protect falsehoods with the First Amendment.  On the one hand, they may have assumed that the blatant falsehoods that are au courant were so easily disproven in public discourse as not to be a concern.  On the other hand, although they were plenty skeptical of the intelligence and qualification of the common man to vote and govern himself, they may have seriously misunderestimated the stupidity and imperviousness to truth of the American people.

 

Edited August 15 by TwiceHorn

[Anastasis 23,464]

Love the direction of this discussion wrt examining the founders, the context of the first amendment and the American Revolution (in today's parlance, terrorism), and why bootlickers would rather focus on discussions of protestors instead of what our tax dollars, military support, and the state department clown show is running to ground. 

But at some point we should probably recenter around what they are distracting from. 

ETA: spoiler tagged for the sensitive types. 

Spoiler

 

Edited August 15 by Anastasis

[TwiceHorn 31,440]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Love the direction of this discussion wrt examining the founders, the context of the first amendment and the American Revolution (in today's parlance, terrorism), and why bootlickers would rather focus on discussions of protestors instead of what our tax dollars, military support, and the state department clown show is running to ground. 

But at some point we should probably recenter around what they are distracting from. 

 

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that our foreign policy has been intentionally and unintentionally bad, leading to a lot of discord and death in various regions of the world.

But, in the words of down east Stephen King, done bun can't be undone.

 

[Anastasis 23,464]

5 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I don't think anyone disagrees that our foreign policy has been intentionally and unintentionally bad, leading to a lot of discord and death in various regions of the world.

 

But I was told greatest period of peace and prosperity in world history and the rules based international order. 

[PRONG HORN 3,141]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

why bootlickers would rather focus on discussions of protestors instead of what our tax dollars, military support, and the state department clown show is running to ground. 

But at some point we should probably recenter around what they are distracting from.  

 

 

Are you just as motivated for Hamas to be de-funded?  If those who want to destroy Israel have funding, than Israel should also have funding from it's allies.  Unless what you want is for Israel to be defenseless while it's enemies are armed.  You can't take one side's arms away while the other side is still rogue.  

 

 

 

[Biff Tannen 45,667]

5 hours ago, immamac said:

I can't wait for this election to be over. It's ruining everyone's brain. 

Lol you think it’s all gonna be fine after that?  Maybe if we win a national title. 

[F250 28,766]

37 minutes ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

Are you just as motivated for Hamas to be de-funded?  If those who want to destroy Israel have funding, than Israel should also have funding from it's allies.  Unless what you want is for Israel to be defenseless while it's enemies are armed.  You can't take one side's arms away while the other side is still rogue.  

 

 

 

Did you recently bump your head a little too hard?

[PRONG HORN 3,141]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Did you recently bump your head a little too hard?

 

 

I'm curious to know if the people who don't want their tax dollars going to Israel's defense, wouldn't mind if it happened while Israel's enemies were still funded.  

 

 

[Anastasis 23,464]

8 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

Are you just as motivated for Hamas to be de-funded?  If those who want to destroy Israel have funding, than Israel should also have funding from it's allies.  Unless what you want is for Israel to be defenseless while it's enemies are armed.  You can't take one side's arms away while the other side is still rogue.  

 

 

 

There so many wrong headed underlying assumptions baked into this post. Israel is a capable nation with a strong economy and ample resources. They needed to be weaned from the tit a long long time ago. 

[RomaVicta 29,902]

On 8/8/2024 at 4:40 PM, Chuckie Finster said:

But I cannot stand protesters that do not understand the assignment.  The goal should not be to protest, the goal should be to drive change. 

Man, that's a great observation in the middle of a great post. 

When a mass of protesters of different causes would arise at international conferences in the US or even political conventions, they had no clear message. They just all showed up to get their tickets punched as protesters. The local news media always covered the events as police problems, so shame on them, too. Protesters, cops, local media idiots all getting their tickets punched for following the template.

Even the chants from the '60s are tired. What do we want? Justice. When do we want it? Now. They can't even come up with something specific.

No justice. No peace.  Yeah, you show up for a couple of hours saying that and it's self-parody. Just wait a few hours and, oh look! Peace!

Idiot World. Some good causes likely could have been advanced by not blending in with 20 other causes just so the crowd is big.

[RomaVicta 29,902]

On 8/14/2024 at 1:25 AM, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

Had my home been destroyed indiscriminately and members of my family made homeless, starving, or dead or all three in sequence, I'd be helping them with that rocket aimed at Israel's capital. 

I might have to crawl throught the rubble of apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and historic sites to get to that spot, but I'd be there. I wouldn't be defending the actions of Oct. 7. I wouldn't even give a fuck about helping Hamas. I'd likely hate them starting all of this, but I would be determined to strike back at the brutal invaders and destroyers of my people.

Israel needs to stop the terror attacks and obliteration. Now. 

Kill every Hamas guy you can find. I won't shed a tear. But stop this abomination now.

[aggie08 21,492]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

There so many wrong headed underlying assumptions baked into this post. Israel is a capable nation with a strong economy and ample resources. They needed to be weaned from the tit a long long time ago. 

You're going to have to be up from midnight-6AM ET to argue with Prong Horn. You know, like a totally sane, definitely from this country person.

Edited August 15 by aggie08

[Nivek 16,923]

16 hours ago, immamac said:

I can't wait for this election to be over. It's ruining everyone's brain. 

Meh, it is just exposing it.

[Nivek 16,923]

24 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

 

Had my home been destroyed indiscriminately and members of my family made homeless, starving, or dead or all three in sequence, I'd be helping them with that rocket aimed at Israel's capital. 

I might have to crawl throught the rubble of apartment buildings, schools, hospitals, and historic sites to get to that spot, but I'd be there. I wouldn't be defending the actions of Oct. 7. I wouldn't even give a fuck about helping Hamas. I'd likely hate them starting all of this, but I would be determined to strike back at the brutal invaders and destroyers of my people.

Israel needs to stop the terror attacks and obliteration. Now. 

Kill every Hamas guy you can find. I won't shed a tear. But stop this abomination now.

First of all, is the video verified?   

In your scenario, you are inviting yourself to be a pawn in someone else's game of redundant behaviors. 

[RomaVicta 29,902]

18 minutes ago, Nivek said:

First of all, is the video verified?   

In your scenario, you are inviting yourself to be a pawn in someone else's game of redundant behaviors. 

 

I wouldn't likely care about much of anything but revenge. I would become

and likely reduced to bloody bits by an Israeli 1000 lb bomb (stern America denied them the 2000 lb ones) that would take me, the Hamas terrorists, and a couple of apartment blocks out should any be left standing in Gaza.

My point stands whether the video is true or not. When we bomb the fuck out of people, we think they'll cower and submit. Nope. They get angry and want to find a way to hurt you back.

I don't expect anyone to remember all of my posts so I will restate that Israel had every right to strike back with a heavy hand after Oct. 7. This isn't about that anymore. It would be foolish to think that, in the face of horrible fates for innocent people, a Palestinian wouldn't feel the same way as an Israeli.

It does occur to me that you're being wry. If so, my compliments.

Edited August 15 by RomaVicta
grammah

[bolverk 29,659]

38 minutes ago, Nivek said:

First of all, is the video verified?   

In your scenario, you are inviting yourself to be a pawn in someone else's game of redundant behaviors. 

Bibi and his far-right government's lack of any sense of proportionality creates new enemies faster than they can kill them, and I suspect that he likes it that way.

I do hope you read this and put yourself in the shoes of those who've lost dozens of innocent family members and then reconsider how you would react. One of the guys cited in it has lost more extended family members than all of the hostages that Hamas took. One guy.

 

As Gaza death toll passes 40,000, corpses are buried in yards, streets, tiered graves

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Tiers of graves are stacked deep underground in a bloated Gaza cemetery, where Sa’di Baraka spends his days hacking at the earth, making room for more dead.

“Sometimes we make graves on top of graves,” he said.

Baraka and his solemn corps of volunteer gravediggers in the Deir al-Balah cemetery start at sunrise, digging new trenches or reopening existing ones. The dead can sometimes come from kilometers (miles) away, stretches of Gaza where burial grounds are destroyed or unreachable.

The cemetery is 70 years old. A quarter of its graves are new.

The death toll in Gaza since the beginning of the 10-month-old Israel-Hamas war has passed 40,000, according to the Health Ministry in the Hamas-run territory. The count does not distinguish civilians from militants.

The small, densely populated strip of land is now packed with bodies.

They fill morgues and overflow cemeteries. Families, fleeing repeatedly to escape offensives, bury their dead wherever possible: in backyards and parking lots, beneath staircases and along roadsides, according to witness accounts and video footage. Others lie under rubble, their families unsure they will ever be counted.

“One large cemetery”
A steady drumbeat of death since October has claimed nearly 2% of Gaza’s prewar population. Health officials and civil defense workers say the true toll could be thousands more, including bodies under rubble that the United Nations says weighs 40 million tons.

“It seems,” Palestinian author Yousri Alghoul wrote for the Institute for Palestine Studies, “that Gaza’s fate is to become one large cemetery, with its streets, parks, and homes, where the living are merely dead awaiting their turn.”

Israel began striking Gaza after Hamas-led militants stormed across the Israeli border on Oct. 7, killing about 1,200 people and taking some 250 others hostage. Israel seeks Hamas’ destruction and claims it confines its attacks to militants. It blames Hamas for civilian deaths, saying the militants operate from residential neighborhoods laced with tunnels. The fighting has killed 329 Israeli soldiers.

Even in death, Palestinians have been displaced by Israel’s offensives.

Palestinians move corpses, shielding them from the path of war. Israel’s military has dug up, plowed over and bombed more than 20 cemeteries, according to satellite imagery analyzed by investigative outlet Bellingcat. Troops have taken scores of bodies into Israel, searching for hostages. Trucked back to Gaza, the bodies are often decomposed and unidentifiable, buried quickly in a mass grave.

Israel’s military told The Associated Press that it is attempting to rescue hostage bodies where intelligence indicates they may be located. It said bodies determined not to be hostages are returned “with dignity and respect.”

Haneen Salem, a photographer and writer from northern Gaza, has lost over 270 extended family members in bombardments and shelling. Salem said between 15 and 20 of them have been disinterred — some after troops destroyed cemeteries and others moved by relatives out of fear Israeli forces would destroy their graves.

“I don’t know how to explain what it feels like to see the bodies of my loved ones lying on the ground, scattered, a piece of flesh here and bone there,” she said. “After the war, if we remain alive, we will dig a new grave and spread roses and water over it for their good souls.”

Honoring the dead
In peacetime, Gaza funerals were large family affairs.

The corpse would be washed and wrapped in a shroud, according to Islamic tradition. After prayers over the body at a mosque, a procession would take it to the graveyard, where it would be laid on its right side facing east, toward Mecca.

The rituals are the most basic way to honor the dead, said Hassan Fares. “This does not exist in Gaza.”

Twenty-five members of Fares’ family were killed by an airstrike on Oct. 13 in northern Gaza. Without gravediggers available, Fares dug three ditches in a cemetery, burying four cousins, his aunt and his uncle. Survivors whispered quick prayers over the distant hum of warplanes.

Those who died early in the war might have been the lucky ones, Fares said. They had funerals, even if brief.

Nawaf al-Zuriei, a morgue worker at Deir al-Balah’s Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital, is on the front lines of the rush of dead. Workers cover the damaged bodies in plastic to avoid bloodstains on white shrouds.

“We wipe the blood off the face so it’s in a suitable state for his loved ones to bid him farewell,” he said.

Following Israeli troop withdrawals, dozens of bodies are left on streets. With fuel scarce, workers collecting the dead fill trucks with corpses, strapping some on top to save gas, said civil defense official Mohammed el-Mougher.

Headstones are rare; some graves are marked with chunks of rubble.

When a corpse remains unidentified, workers place a plastic placard at the grave, bearing the burial date, identification number and where the body was found.

Searching for lost loved ones
The uncertain fate of relatives’ bodies haunts families.

Mousa Jomaa, an orthopedist who lives in al-Ram in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, has watched from afar as the war claimed 21 relatives in Gaza.

Jomaa’s cousin Mohammed was killed in an Israeli airstrike early in the war while operating an ambulance in southern Gaza and was buried in Rafah, away from the family’s home in central Gaza. The cemetery was damaged in a later offensive. There’s no sign of Mohammed’s body, Jomaa said.

A strike in December then destroyed Jomaa’s uncle’s house, killing his aunt and her children, 8-year-old Mira and 10-year-old Omar. Jomaa’s uncle, Dr. Hani Jomaa, rushed home to search the rubble. Before he could find Mira’s body, a strike killed him too.

Because her body has not been recovered, Mira has not been counted among the dead, said Jomaa, who showed a photo of the young girl standing beside her brother, with a rainbow handbag matching her barrette.

In July, an Israeli tank killed two more cousins, Mohammed and Baha. Baha’s body was torn apart, and the shelling made it too dangerous to collect the remains for weeks.

Jomaa said that come the end of the war, he plans to visit Gaza to search for Mira’s remains.

Smashed graves and cemeteries off-limits
Israeli evacuation orders cover much of Gaza, leaving some of the largest cemeteries off-limits.

Jake Godin, a Bellingcat researcher, has used satellite imagery to document destruction to more than 20 cemeteries. Sandy, bulldozed expanses appear where some cemeteries once stood. Gaza City’s Sheikh Radwan graveyard is cratered. In Gaza’s Eastern Cemetery, roads carved by heavy vehicles bury headstones under tire tracks, he said.

“Anywhere the (Israeli military) is active, they bulldoze and destroy the ground without regard to cemeteries,” Godin said.

The military told the AP it does not have a policy of destroying graves. “The unfortunate reality of ground warfare in condensed civilian areas” can result in harm to cemeteries, it said, adding it found Hamas tunnels underneath a cemetery east of the southern city of Khan Younis.

Mahmoud Alkrunz, a student in Turkey, said his father, mother, two brothers, sister and three of his siblings’ children were buried in the Bureij refugee camp’s cemetery after Israel bombed their home.

When Israel withdrew from Bureij in January, the graves were found unearthed. Alkrunz fainted when his uncle delivered the news.

“We don’t know what has happened to the bodies,” he said.

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

On 8/14/2024 at 2:51 PM, DDD Dad said:

Look, if you and Rex want to swing your dicks at each other maybe find somewhere else to do it.  You're just thread shitting at this point.

You're not necessarily wrong, I shouldn't be responding to Rex at all. It kind of all circles back to the board's ignore feature being entirely useless because I would have just put him on ignore right after he switched from Porterhouse back to Rex Kramer, but it is what it is.

There was an actual discussion going on between people that don't necessarily agree, but have fully developed and functioning frontal cortexes before Rex drops in to drop a tactical nuke of ignorance and rightfully starts getting shit on by [not just me]. It's not my fault he has to derail every discussion that doesn't involve him because he is stuck in the deepest Dunning-Kruger hole of all time, but it is my fault that I decide to argue with him every time.

That said, you want better discussion? Then engage with the topics bolverk, myself, and others continue to bring up in here to try and spark real and interesting discussion. It's not our fault that the Surly Make Israel Great Again crowd will only engage in conversations that revolve around stupid American protestors. That or they just want to play hall monitor like yourself.

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

On 8/14/2024 at 5:49 PM, hpslugga said:

Again, it’s been like that for almost a year. The amount of bullshit, not to mention sheer moral depravity, that’s been slung around here since October 7th has been absolutely, unbelievably breathtaking. 

On 8/14/2024 at 5:58 PM, immamac said:

I can't wait for this election to be over. It's ruining everyone's brain. 

On 8/14/2024 at 6:02 PM, hpslugga said:

Oh the election will have precious little effect on the bu-fucking-foonery that’s gone on in this particular thread. Other threads? Yes. Even other boards? Maybe. But this one? No. No, the bullshit will continue as long as this needless cycle of violence persists. We’re gonna keep reading the same bullshit excuses and the same bullshit make believe stories.

I have to agree with hpslugga here, the election ballyhoo has basically nothing to do with this thread. Many otherwise progressive posters have said things in this thread that are so outright insane/bloodthirsty that it's scarcely believable. It will continue no matter what happens in the election. In fact, if Harris wins and actually makes some reforms to how our government handles Israel, I suspect it will get much worse.

There's one very active and progressive poster (I will not tag them as I don't want to start an argument) that engages in good discussion around the election etc that very seriously and unironically suggested that Gaza should be nuked a la Japan and that it was completely justifiable to kill the entire population in response to what Hamas did on Oct. 7.

That's not to even get into the discussion of how often people have been accused of antisemitism in this thread and the many instances of absolutely disgusting and brazen Islamophobia and not one bit of it was ever moderated.

[bolverk 29,659]

1,250 terrorist attacks by settlers on Palestinians in the West Bank since October with 589 killed in that timeframe in the West Bank, which had nothing to do with October 7. To put it in perspective, that's roughly half the number killed (695 Israeli civilians, 71 foreign nationals, and 373 members of the security forces) on October 7. Yes, the murders and killings are spread out instead of on a single day, but a death remains a death.

So, in this region where all of Abraham's children seem to live by an "eye for an eye" ethos, how long before West Bank Palestinians erupt into their own retributive violence on settlers out of righteous rage? We all know where this leads: violence begets violence and the cycle keeps spinning.

I'll go ahead and ask, are the folks who defend Israeli actions, no matter what, going to continue to play dumb and lay blame on the Palestinians if when shit blows up in the West Bank? Or are we all going to finally realize that the illegal occupation and settlements are one of the leading factors if not the main cause, of this whole headache? You know, maybe create a separation between these two warring tribes instead of encouraging or turning a blind eye to the illegal creation of new settlements right alongside existing Palestinian ones? 

It's far past time that we should demand far-right extremists--both within the Israeli government and among its population (along with nutty apocalyptic American Christian Zionists)--to abandon any territorial claims beyond Israel's internationally recognized boundaries and finally allow the Palestinians freedom from oppression and the opportunity to create their own independent nation.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/18/world/middleeast/israel-settlers-attack-jit-west-bank.html
 

Quote

 

They came into the village just past sundown, dozens of Israeli settlers wearing masks, dressed in dark clothes and armed with rocks, Kalashnikovs and M-16s, witnesses said.

A local resident, Muawiya al-Sidee, said his 13-year-old daughter was one of the first to spot them as she and her younger siblings were playing on Thursday in their front garden in the village of Jit, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

“‘Baba, settlers are coming!’” the girl screamed.

Mr. al-Sidee and his wife, who was breastfeeding their 2-year-old daughter at the time, piled their five children into their car and drove off just as the settlers reached their front door.

Seconds later, he said, the Israelis from the nearby Eli settlement smashed the windows of his family’s home and threw in three Molotov cocktails, burning rooms where, moments earlier, the family had gathered.

As the family fled, a call went out over mosque loudspeakers in the village of some 3,000 people, imploring young men to come out and defend against the rampaging settlers.

When Mr. al-Sidee returned hours later, after the settlers had withdrawn, he found the sofas in his house were charred husks and the overhead lamps had melted.

Elsewhere in the village, Rasheed al-Seda, 23, awoke when the call for defenders sounded from the mosques. He joined a group determined to defend the village, armed with nothing but stones.

It would cost him his life, his mother and the Palestinian Ministry of Health said.

The Israeli military confirmed the attack on the village.

“Dozens of Israeli civilians, some of them masked, entered the town of Jit and set fire to vehicles and structures in the area, hurled rocks and Molotov cocktails,” a military statement said, adding that the military had opened an investigation and was looking into reports of a fatality.

More than 2.7 million Palestinians reside in ancestral cities, towns and farming villages in the West Bank, where, for generations, many have lived off the land. But that existence is increasingly under threat as more Israelis move to the territory — they now number nearly 500,000 — to live in settlements considered illegal under international law.

Since the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attack on Israel and the start of the war in Gaza, attacks by Jewish settlers on Palestinians across the West Bank have become common. There have been about 1,250 such attacks in this time, according to the United Nations — 25 in the past week alone.

More than 589 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces or Jewish settlers in the West Bank since Oct. 7, according to Palestinian health officials. Eighteen Israelis have been killed in the territory in the same time period, according to the United Nations.

On Thursday night, Mr. al-Seda became one of the latest Palestinian casualties.

He had just joined the other men who were running in the direction of the rampaging settlers when, according to residents and Palestinian health officials, he was shot in the chest by a settler.

Multiple residents said the Israeli army was preventing ambulances and fire trucks from entering the village. The Israeli military denied the accusations.

Other men carried Mr. al-Seda to a car — his blood staining the pavement. Residents said he was driven to the entrance of the village, where he was transferred to an ambulance that had been blocked from entering. From there he was taken to a hospital, where he was later pronounced dead.

In total, four houses and six vehicles were burned, according to Yesh Din, an Israeli rights group.

The military said that its forces, along with Israeli Border Police, had been dispatched to the site and dispersed the rampage by firing shots into the air and “removing the Israeli civilians from the town” within about 30 minutes from the time it began.

But rights groups and Palestinians have said in the past that the Israeli military often does nothing to stop such attacks. And Jit residents said that the military had not arrived at the scene until more than an hour after the settler rampage had begun.

The office of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, whose coalition government includes West Bank settlers in top positions, said the leader “takes seriously the riots that took place this evening in the village of Jit, which included injury to life and property by Israelis who entered the village.”

But far-right members of Mr. Netanyahu’s government, including Bezalel Smotrich, the finance minister, and Itamar Ben-Gvir, the minister of national security, have made inflammatory statements about Palestinians before and have advanced policies to expand Israel’s hold on the West Bank.

In October, Mr. Ben-Gvir, who oversees the police, promised to provide thousands of guns to Israelis, including to settlers. He posted photographs that showed him handing out assault rifles to civilians.

Jit residents said Mr. Netanyahu’s government bore some responsibility for the attack.

“Ben-Gvir gave them these weapons to attack us,” said Oomyma al-Sidee, a relative of Muawiya al-Sidee. She said she was holed up in her home with her six sons and other relatives as settlers tried to break through the metal front door.

“This is terrorism,” she said.

From the roof of their home, her sons threw rocks at the settlers, trying to push them away from the home and two vehicles parked out front. Some of the settlers smashed the vehicles’ windows and set them on fire with Molotov cocktails, she said.

Despite the danger, she said, Ms. al-Sidee’s husband ran outside with a hose to try to put out the fire, worried that the vehicles would explode and ignite their home.

“We escaped death,” she said.

This was not the first time that the family had been targeted, she said. In October, Israelis from the same settlement kidnapped her husband for an hour, beat him with guns and threatened to shoot him.

Since then, Ms. al-Sidee said, she has kept their IDs, important documents and gold jewelry in a lunchbox that she carries with her every time she leaves her house.

On Thursday night, after the attack, she and her family slept at a relative’s house.

“Tonight, I don’t know where we will sleep. They might come back,” Ms. al-Sidee said on Friday, expressing a widespread fear throughout the village.

She had just returned from the wake for Mr. al-Seda, who had been a student in an Arabic class she teaches.

Throughout the village, mourning posters had gone up for Mr. al-Seda. At his family’s home, a banner hung outside as villagers streamed in to attend the wake. Recitations from the Quran played in the background as women came in, offering their condolences and sipping bitter coffee.

In one corner, his mother, Iman al-Seda, sat reciting prayers and lamenting the loss of her son.

“My love, my life,” she said, weeping and wiping her bloodshot eyes with a crumpled tissue.

Mr. al-Seda, who had worked in computers, was a sociable person who brought life to their home, his mother said. He would always kiss on her cheeks and hands, a common sign of respect for elders in Arab culture.

“What am I going to do?” she said. “I wish he hadn’t gone to help.”

 

 

Edited August 18 by bolverk

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

Is it wrong to think Netanyahu is a gigantic piece of shit?

No more weapons until he agrees to a cease fire. 

I know all our politicians are bought off by AIPAC bit still.

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

54 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Is it wrong to think Netanyahu is a gigantic piece of shit?

No more weapons until he agrees to a cease fire. 

I know all our politicians are bought off by AIPAC bit still.

Netanyahu is an awful piece of shit, and we allow him to walk all over us to an embarrassing extent. He wields more power over Congress than any American politician, and it's high time it came to an end.

They should not get a single dollar or piece of equipment from us ever again, or at the very least until certain conditions are met.

• No more obstruction of a ceasefire agreement
• A full withdrawal from the West Bank including all armed forces and all of the settlers that have and are currently committing Israeli government-sponsored acts of terror in that region
• Allow Palestinians who have fled due to having their lands and property stolen by settlers the right to return and claim their homes
• An immediate end to the apartheid practices within Israel proper and in Palestinian territories
• Allow new elections to take place so Netanyahu can finally be voted out and brought to justice
• Pledge to help rebuild Gaza since Israel has destroyed almost all of its culture and infrastructure

I've little hope of any of that ever happening, but it must happen for peace to ever be on the table.

[InkaUtexas 25,877]

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Netanyahu is an awful piece of shit, and we allow him to walk all over us to an embarrassing extent. He wields more power over Congress than any American politician, and it's high time it came to an end.

They should not get a single dollar or piece of equipment from us ever again, or at the very least until certain conditions are met.

• No more obstruction of a ceasefire agreement
• A full withdrawal from the West Bank including all armed forces and all of the settlers that have and are currently committing Israeli government-sponsored acts of terror in that region
• Allow Palestinians who have fled due to having their lands and property stolen by settlers the right to return and claim their homes
• An immediate end to the apartheid practices within Israel proper and in Palestinian territories
• Allow new elections to take place so Netanyahu can finally be voted out and brought to justice
• Pledge to help rebuild Gaza since Israel has destroyed almost all of its culture and infrastructure

I've little hope of any of that ever happening, but it must happen for peace to ever be on the table.

I think all of that could happen except for the change of policy inside Israel. No way will they open up for potentially more attacks, be it stabbings, bombings, you name it.

stop the crap in Gaza now, withdraw from the settlements, and elections are not the hard. But as long as Bibi the cocksucker is in power nothing will change. So it all really needs to begin with that.

[chainsaw 9,861]

 

[Loch Ness Monster 3,533]

Pretty sad about pro Palestine people rioting against the DNC. Support their cause 100% but wrong place wrong time. We want a cease fire you idiots!!!! Why are you helping Trump.

[4th&Five 41,520]

 

[Brian Fantana 6,683]

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/keith-ellison-dnc-speech-gaza/

Quote

Keith Ellison Knows Peace in Gaza Is Possible, and He Wants Democrats to Talk About Achieving It

The Minnesota attorney general will use his speech at the DNC to call for a deeper dialogue around Palestine.