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On 10/1/2024 at 1:16 PM, Brisketexan said:

The smart response?  Keep playing the game YOU have chosen, not the game your impotent enemy wants to play.

Israel has been making masterful chess moves v. Iran in recent months.  Keep playing that game, don't be distracted AT ALL by theatrics and performative bullshit.  Iran just made noise.  Ignore it and keep on trucking, pursuing your plans using your intel as you have been.

I strongly suspect that will be how Israel plays it.  Israel isn't looking to put on a show.  They aren't looking to "escalate."  They also aren't looking to "de-escalate."  They have goals they want to accomplish re Iran and Hezbollah.  They are accomplishing them, and they are likely to keep doing so for some time.

 

To me, it looks like the war criminal Netanyahu is trying to recreate the baptism montage from the Godfather. To me, it looks like he wants to create a greater Israel through bloody, inhuman conquest.

They dropped 2000 lb bombs on the neighborhoods where Hezbollah headquarters. If they repeat their Gaza strategy, they'll use that justification to use high explosives in non-combatant neighborhoods whether there is a real threat to Israel there or not.

I see Israeli policy as pointing to a general showdown and greater MidEast conflagration in order to get rid of the Palestinians once and for all. 

They are justified in attacking Hezbollah and certainly for attacking Hamas. Their lack of concern about precision and their brutal treatment of captives shows bloodlust to me. I don't want our name on it. I wouldn't supply Israel with anything for a few weeks and then re-negotiate any deal we have.

I would not have an Israeli Donald Trump leading up by the nose into a war against Islam. I don't want to see Israel driven into the sea, so I would help with air defense. That's it.

 

20 hours ago, Brisketexan said:


Fair, but there are still ways Israel can lose, in terms of standing in the world, as well as in cost/losses. To continue the metaphor, losing too many pieces as you get the win would not be the best outcome.

It would still be the outcome they seek. It's clear Israeli leadership doesn't give a fig for their standing in the world.

Edited by RomaVicta
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Massive displacement. Destruction of medical facilities. Interference with humanitarian aid. Targetting of journalists. Tons of high explosive bombs (made in the USA! Supplied by the USA!) dropped among non-combatants. 

America aids and abets a slaughter in the Middle East pretty obviously designed to inflict maximum harm on general populations. Netanyahu makes Israel an outlaw state way over on the bloodthirsty side of the spectrum.

Shame on us.

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16 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

image.png.9739419d3a53ce63dd78e6a1a5173b3a.png

image.png.415e0d6c750cbd2b5e69aff17ad369c9.png

Massive displacement. Destruction of medical facilities. Interference with humanitarian aid. Targetting of journalists. Tons of high explosive bombs (made in the USA! Supplied by the USA!) dropped among non-combatants. 

America aids and abets a slaughter in the Middle East pretty obviously designed to inflict maximum harm on general populations. Netanyahu makes Israel an outlaw state way over on the bloodthirsty side of the spectrum.

Shame on us.

And yet they’ll still have their US-based cheering section, as evidenced by the sheer depravity, buffoonery, and not least of all, historical incompetence by our usual suspects in this ghastly thread. But they’ll keep marching in lockstep, mindlessly droning the same popular refrains like the intellectual beggars they’ve always been, regardless of what you tell them…no differently than MAGA, actually. 

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1 hour ago, hpslugga said:

And yet they’ll still have their US-based cheering section, as evidenced by the sheer depravity, buffoonery, and not least of all, historical incompetence by our usual suspects in this ghastly thread.

It’s amazing how ignorant seemingly educated Americans are about the most basic historical facts of this conflict.

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2 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

"Those responsible for sacking the previously leader of Hezbollah, who had been sacked after he replaced the previous leader of Hezbollah, who had been sacked, have sacked his successor."

 

 

 

And it won't make a bit of difference. We celebrate these justified killings as though they are great victories. The terrorist armies are still there. But, hey, we impotently blew up a dickhead! 

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1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

And it won't make a bit of difference. We celebrate these justified killings as though they are great victories. The terrorist armies are still there. But, hey, we impotently blew up a dickhead! 



Apparently, Israel got the whole Hezbollah Shura Council that was meeting to elect Safieddine as Nasrallah's successor. This makes me think that Israel knew where Safieddine has been, all along, and was waiting for this meeting to take them out wholesale, instead of one by one. Israel knew exactly when and where the meeting was to take place. The explosion was massive --- even more massive than the one that took out that first guy last week.

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if anyone hasn't figured it out, israel has the largest drone force on the planet, with sigint capability beyond anything *deployed* by the us team

they fly every night and could probably do things such as record every conversation they want to record in any structure that is not hardened against EM signal propagation; build a 3-d heat map of any building they are interested in; even refine the IR signature of individuals they are interested in

remember the below video?

 

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On 10/2/2024 at 3:43 PM, RomaVicta said:

They are justified in attacking Hezbollah and certainly for attacking Hamas. Their lack of concern about precision and their brutal treatment of captives shows bloodlust to me. I don't want our name on it. I wouldn't supply Israel with anything for a few weeks and then re-negotiate any deal we have.

Not directed towards you but its amazing how many Americans believe everything started October 7 2023. Chomsky was talking about the killing of Palestinians in Gaza using American weapons and illegal settlements in the West Bank 10 years ago.

Also how many Americans believe a lot of Middle Eastern countries hate the USA because of freedom. No they realize America has helped destabilize the region for decades and supported a lot of oppressive regimes.

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13 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Not directed towards you but its amazing how many Americans believe everything started October 7 2023. Chomsky was talking about the killing of Palestinians in Gaza using American weapons and illegal settlements in the West Bank 10 years ago.

Also how many Americans believe a lot of Middle Eastern countries hate the USA because of freedom. No they realize America has helped destabilize the region for decades and supported a lot of oppressive regimes.

Absolutely agree. A smaller point that has bothered me when we pick a new country to invade but use the word "liberate" is how we don't call the enemy the enemy; we call them bad guys. I don't like how that re-enforces the notion that we're always good fighting evil.

We keep telling ourselves that everywhere we go to kill people ourselves is a re-run of WWII. Our war discussion or discussions about issues like the expanding Israeli war on the civiliam populations around them is so seldom pragmatic. What is good for the US in all of this?

But we love those balleyhooed tactical victories where we blow up a terrorist leader, and nothing changes.

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18 hours ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

"Those responsible for sacking the previously leader of Hezbollah, who had been sacked after he replaced the previous leader of Hezbollah, who had been sacked, have sacked his successor."

 

 

 

Stuff like this tells me that Israel has good intelligence and is capable of fighting targeted wars against terrorist groups without having to level cities and displace millions of civilians.

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3 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

 

But we love those balleyhooed tactical victories where we blow up a terrorist leader, and nothing changes.


I disagree that nothing has changed. It certainly has changed, even if that change is not permanent.  It would appear that a lot of institutional knowledge has been and continues to be decimated by Israel.    I would imagine that it's pretty hard to find anybody who wants to lead Hezbollah right now and I'm thinking that, as Israel continues to prove that it can destroy Hezbollah almost at will, that recruiting new Hezbollah fighters might be a challenge, too.  I can hear the conversations now.  "Hezbollah? Me? Never heard of them.  I'm just a simple pizza delivery boy."

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23 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:


I disagree that nothing has changed. It certainly has changed, even if that change is not permanent.  It would appear that a lot of institutional knowledge has been and continues to be decimated by Israel.    I would imagine that it's pretty hard to find anybody who wants to lead Hezbollah right now and I'm thinking that, as Israel continues to prove that it can destroy Hezbollah almost at will, that recruiting new Hezbollah fighters might be a challenge, too.  I can hear the conversations now.  "Hezbollah? Me? Never heard of them.  I'm just a simple pizza delivery boy."

Oddly enough enough, there were scholars on an NPR show this morning all concurring that Israel is brilliant at tactical victories, but they can't seem to parlay them into achieving any larger goals.

Respectfully, I think your rationale reflects what is always getting us into trouble. We regularly believe that our force of arms will terrorize prospective opponents into cowed submission. It never happens that way. Other peoples are as brave as us. They object angrily when people they know are blown up by American bombs just like we do when somebody blows up Americans. Just like us, people will find a way to fight when roused.

Specifically, I don't think any terrorist leaders have expected to retire in comfort one day. We and the Isrelis have been killing them off for decades. The movements using terrorism largely remain as they have for decades. 

I've felt for a long time that American foreign policy has been reduced to cheap theater for rubes back home. This theater is the same as our mythology about good guys killing bad guys and we celebrate the easy closure. In the real world, the curtain never comes down. Solutions aren't often easy. Being right doesn't guarantee you'll prevail. 

The mature world (I'm speaking generally not condescending to you) is that of Leonard Cohen. 

Everybody Knows.

 

Edited by RomaVicta
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8 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

We regularly believe that our force of arms will terrorize prospective opponents into cowed submission. It never happens that way. Other peoples are as brave as us. They object angrily when people they know are blown up by American bombs just like we do when somebody blows up Americans. Just like us, people will find a way to fight when roused.

It's not a perfect fit because it really addresses the resigned determination to just muddle through as best as folks can despite the mental toll, but this section of your post reminded me of a short piece I read earlier this afternoon.

image.png.1751487dc4e5a3b2839e2009f85ada9a.png

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/10/04/world/israel-iran-hezbollah-lebanon

Beirut is sleepless.

The Israeli airstrikes are worst at night. By day, residents walk the city with haggard faces, trying their best to fight fatigue and calm their nerves. Empty cigarette packets pile up in handbags and in the footwells of cars. Anti-anxiety medication is shared among friends.

Many people have simply fled the city, deeming it, after two weeks of intense bombardment, unlivable.

“When will this end?” the 7-year-old daughter of Farah Choucair, an economist who spent 14 years working for the United Nations, asked her mother last week.

For the child, the pounding Israeli strikes are a flashback to the deadly Beirut port blast, which ripped through the Lebanese capital just over four years ago and destroyed entire neighborhoods. Ms. Choucair, who now works for a media technology company, said it took years of psychological support for her to process the trauma, but her daughter never did.

“I don't think she ever recovered,” she said of her daughter.

For many in Beirut, the continuing conflict is just one in a long line of human catastrophes. The city’s bullet-ridden apartment buildings serve as a daily reminder of Lebanon’s bloody 15-year civil war, which ended in 1990. A crippling economic collapse that struck decades later has left much of the country in poverty, and residents are still grappling with chronic power cuts even as the capital is bombarded.

Beirut and its surrounding neighborhoods have been pounded by Israeli airstrikes targeting Hezbollah and its leaders for the past two weeks, reducing sections of the city to ruins. Just months ago, an Israeli strike in the heart of the city was an abrupt turn of events that escalated the conflict. Now, it is fast becoming the norm, punctuating bedtimes, family dinners and phone calls with friends.

Many residents say they loathe the stereotype that the Lebanese are resilient.

“I wish sometimes that we could just sit and cry our eyes out and not know what to do, but we always know what to do — what to pack, what we need,” said Ms. Choucair. “It has nothing to do with resilience or any positive trait. It’s a natural survival mode that we have been trained to automate.”

She added: “This is how it is living in Beirut. It will never change. I am 41. It has been like this for as long as I remember.”

Many apartments now lie vacant in Beirut, a once-bustling Mediterranean city and home to 2.5 million people. Those that had the means have fled up the coast or into the surrounding hills, but this has done little to ease their growing fears. The distant thump of Israeli airstrikes seems to draw closer with each passing day. Nights, too, are spent fretting over whether a sound was just a neighbor’s slamming door — or something more.

“All my dreams are about bombs,” said Heba Jundi, 36, who was staying at a friend’s house in the mountains above Beirut with her cat, Benji.

“Some nights I go to bed, I close my eyes, but I don’t allow myself to sleep,” said Ms. Jundi. “I’m telling myself that I’m waiting for the bomb to happen, and that I’m going to hear it any second now. We are all waiting for this to stop, but at the same time we know it is not going to stop, and we just have no clue or understanding of where this is going to go.”

Like so many others, she had begun taking anti-anxiety medication to deal with the stress, but said it was having little effect.

“I don’t know how much more the city can take,” Ms. Jundi said, “and I don’t think anyone wants to find out.”

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1 hour ago, bolverk said:

It's not a perfect fit because it really addresses the resigned determination to just muddle through as best as folks can despite the mental toll, but this section of your post reminded me of a short piece I read earlier this afternoon.

image.png.1751487dc4e5a3b2839e2009f85ada9a.png

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/10/04/world/israel-iran-hezbollah-lebanon

Beirut is sleepless.

The Israeli airstrikes are worst at night. By day, residents walk the city with haggard faces, trying their best to fight fatigue and calm their nerves. Empty cigarette packets pile up in handbags and in the footwells of cars. Anti-anxiety medication is shared among friends.

Many people have simply fled the city, deeming it, after two weeks of intense bombardment, unlivable.

“When will this end?” the 7-year-old daughter of Farah Choucair, an economist who spent 14 years working for the United Nations, asked her mother last week.

For the child, the pounding Israeli strikes are a flashback to the deadly Beirut port blast, which ripped through the Lebanese capital just over four years ago and destroyed entire neighborhoods. Ms. Choucair, who now works for a media technology company, said it took years of psychological support for her to process the trauma, but her daughter never did.

“I don't think she ever recovered,” she said of her daughter.

For many in Beirut, the continuing conflict is just one in a long line of human catastrophes. The city’s bullet-ridden apartment buildings serve as a daily reminder of Lebanon’s bloody 15-year civil war, which ended in 1990. A crippling economic collapse that struck decades later has left much of the country in poverty, and residents are still grappling with chronic power cuts even as the capital is bombarded.

Beirut and its surrounding neighborhoods have been pounded by Israeli airstrikes targeting Hezbollah and its leaders for the past two weeks, reducing sections of the city to ruins. Just months ago, an Israeli strike in the heart of the city was an abrupt turn of events that escalated the conflict. Now, it is fast becoming the norm, punctuating bedtimes, family dinners and phone calls with friends.

Many residents say they loathe the stereotype that the Lebanese are resilient.

“I wish sometimes that we could just sit and cry our eyes out and not know what to do, but we always know what to do — what to pack, what we need,” said Ms. Choucair. “It has nothing to do with resilience or any positive trait. It’s a natural survival mode that we have been trained to automate.”

She added: “This is how it is living in Beirut. It will never change. I am 41. It has been like this for as long as I remember.”

Many apartments now lie vacant in Beirut, a once-bustling Mediterranean city and home to 2.5 million people. Those that had the means have fled up the coast or into the surrounding hills, but this has done little to ease their growing fears. The distant thump of Israeli airstrikes seems to draw closer with each passing day. Nights, too, are spent fretting over whether a sound was just a neighbor’s slamming door — or something more.

“All my dreams are about bombs,” said Heba Jundi, 36, who was staying at a friend’s house in the mountains above Beirut with her cat, Benji.

“Some nights I go to bed, I close my eyes, but I don’t allow myself to sleep,” said Ms. Jundi. “I’m telling myself that I’m waiting for the bomb to happen, and that I’m going to hear it any second now. We are all waiting for this to stop, but at the same time we know it is not going to stop, and we just have no clue or understanding of where this is going to go.”

Like so many others, she had begun taking anti-anxiety medication to deal with the stress, but said it was having little effect.

“I don’t know how much more the city can take,” Ms. Jundi said, “and I don’t think anyone wants to find out.”



Sounds like the native Lebanese and anybody else who cares about Beirut or who fondly remembers how cosmopolitan/international it used to be should demand that Hezbollah leave. 

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