Israel

[RomaVicta 29847]

2 hours ago, Hornius Emeritus said:

 

 

 

 

 

I don't care that much, but I decided to try to run down the source. Eli cited OSint. OSI cited the Times of Israel and Kyle Bass:

 

The Times of Israel seems to be a reputable news source, however several different searches there revealed no article about this. Kyle Bass is a financial guy who didn't have a source.

It looks to me like Imperial Israel apologists are trying to make up shit to mitigate the crime of using high explosive bombs on civilians. If I'm wrong, I welcome correction.

[chainsaw 9841]

I'd sooner trust Kyle Gass.

[Brisketexan 104789]

16 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'd sooner trust Kyle Gass.

I'd sooner trust Lance Bass.

 

 

Really, I hear he's a pretty good dude.

[Anastasis 23404]

Anyone that puts their academic credentials in their Twitter handle, but esp a computer science phd that uses the title Dr. in their Twitter handle, is a fucking psychopath. 

[956 Worldwide 34525]

On 10/10/2024 at 8:52 PM, statsman said:

UN peacekeepers? What’s their mission? Keeping Hezbollah from firing missiles into northern Israel, so the 100,000 displaced Israelis can return home?

You’re getting some hate for this but UNIFL’s approved mission is in fact to demilitarize southern Lebanon aside from government of Lebanon and UNIFL forces (read: de-arm Hezbollah). It has of course been an utter failure at doing so. 
 

It’s not cool to shoot at UN Peacekeepers, and Israel shouldn’t do it.  The fact that Hezbollah and not the government of Lebanon controls the area and has rockets does mean that UNIFL is completely meaningless and has accomplished nothing since 2006. 

[Napoleon 8634]

Interesting BBC headline.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28730]

16 hours ago, chainsaw said:

The brilliant Eli David

 

How many times last year did Americans drive the 104 million cars they own, Eli?

[Brian Fantana 6672]

6 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You’re getting some hate for this but UNIFL’s approved mission is in fact to demilitarize southern Lebanon aside from government of Lebanon and UNIFL forces (read: de-arm Hezbollah). It has of course been an utter failure at doing so. 
 

It’s not cool to shoot at UN Peacekeepers, and Israel shouldn’t do it.  The fact that Hezbollah and not the government of Lebanon controls the area and has rockets does mean that UNIFL is completely meaningless and has accomplished nothing since 2006. 

He's getting hate for not bothering to spend the barest minimum effort to understand the various actors involved and implying it's ok to shoot at them because they suck at their job or they're affiliated with the UN or whatever the fuck. He could try, just once, to not be so fucking lazy and dumb and try to engage in good faith once or twice and he'd be fine.

[Jhawkmvp 1489]

22 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Anyone that puts their academic credentials in their Twitter handle, but esp a computer science phd that uses the title Dr. in their Twitter handle, is a fucking psychopath. 

 

69pussylover69 MBA

69pussylover69

[Brian Fantana 6672]

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/netanyahu-israel-un-peacekeepers-lebanon-hezbollah/

Stuff going on today.

Quote

A drone strike hit central Israel on Sunday, wounding more than 60 people, some of them critically, rescue services said, in one of the bloodiest attacks in Israel in a year of war. The Lebanon-based Hezbollah militant group said the strike targeted a military camp

Israeli media reported that two drones were launched from Lebanon, and Israel's military said one was intercepted.

It was not immediately clear who was hurt, military or civilians, or what was hit. There were no details from Israel's military, which earlier reported that at least 115 rockets were fired from Lebanon.

Hezbollah said in a statement that it targeted an Israeli military training camp in retaliation for two Israeli strikes in Beirut on Thursday that killed 22 people.

Luckily it doesn't seem anyone was killed, so that's a plus.

Quote

Earlier Sunday, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu called on United Nations peacekeepers to heed the Israeli military's warnings to evacuate Lebanon immediately as the fighting intensifies.

Israeli forces have repeatedly fired upon locations where first responders and U.N. peacekeepers were present since the start of the ground operation against Hezbollah. The military has accused the Iran-backed militant group of using ambulances to ferry fighters and weapons and says Hezbollah operates in the vicinity of the peacekeepers, without providing evidence.

This is a classic, straight out of the IDF greatest hits playbook. Claim that whatever humanitarian group you're shooting at is sheltering the enemy so you can have an excuse to keep shooting at them. Provide no evidence whatsoever, knowing that most Western media will simply parrot your claim without any pushback.

[Satchel 6911]

The world can’t keep the same supportive disposition toward Israel and expect a different result. It’s insanity operationally defined. Something has to change.

[Brian Fantana 6672]

33 minutes ago, Satchel said:

The world can’t keep the same supportive disposition toward Israel and expect a different result. It’s insanity operationally defined. Something has to change.

[softlynow 1798]

1 hour ago, Satchel said:

The world can’t keep the same supportive disposition toward Israel and expect a different result. It’s insanity operationally defined. Something has to change.

Why? Because it would be the right thing?

The cycle we’ve seen play out for decades will continue until there is a massive shift in power dynamics. Humanitarian considerations are merely a PR problem rather easily dealt with as long as the status quo holds. 

[statsman 5431]

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hezbollah-tunnel-entrances-abut-u-n-peacekeeping-position-israel-alleges-4b821c03?st=jJpDNY&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

[Brian Fantana 6672]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hezbollah-tunnel-entrances-abut-u-n-peacekeeping-position-israel-alleges-4b821c03?st=jJpDNY&reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink

Dude, literally everyone here that pays attention, no matter their perspective on all this, has repeatedly told you to stop using WSJ as a source. Seriously, be better. This is a shitpost.

[statsman 5431]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Dude, literally everyone here that pays attention, no matter their perspective on all this, has repeatedly told you to stop using WSJ as a source. Seriously, be better. This is a shitpost.

What? Is it your contention that posting a link to a news story from the news reporting (not editorial) section of the WSJ is shit posting? 
 
Can a moderator chime in on whether that is the standard here?

[Rex Kramer 1311]

18 minutes ago, statsman said:

What? Is it your contention that posting a link to a news story from the news reporting (not editorial) section of the WSJ is shit posting? 
 
Can a moderator chime in on whether that is the standard here?

WSJ isn’t a good enough source. Wow.

Edited October 14 by Rex Kramer

[BrickHorn 18199]

12 hours ago, Satchel said:

The world can’t keep the same supportive disposition toward Israel

“The world.” Lol. 

[956 Worldwide 34525]

FT reporting similar.  I am not sure why this is contested, the UNIFL mission has a mandate but not the authority to actually do anything about Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. 
 

Quote

 

 

In one square kilometre, Israeli officers said, the IDF battalion operating in the area had found around 100 Hizbollah military positions, including a tunnel 10 meters deep and 50 meters wide with firing positions for mortars and anti-tank guided missiles. Another weapons cache was filled with army kit, small arms, mines and explosive devices. “You can’t take a step [in this area] without coming across Hizbollah [military] infrastructure,” said Ariel, an IDF officer in the division. “And without forces physically on the ground you can’t clear out this area from this . . . infrastructure because of the tunnels and the forests.” Multiple Israeli officers were incredulous that the UN peacekeepers in the area, some in a base located less than 200 meters from a Hizbollah tunnel, had not detected the extensive building project.

 

[bolverk 29486]

Yeah, I don't know why a news article from the WSJ wouldn't be considered a credible source of information. Sure, it's right-leaning, but it's widely viewed as reliable and accurate reporting. Its editorial board is pretty fucking nuts, but the news section is good, even with an inevitable slight bias you might get from just about any major publication.

On a different note, here's another article about the IDF using Palestinians as human shields (an obvious war crime) in their operations. Tell me, @statsman, you posted an article a few weeks ago about Russians dehumanizing Ukrainians. Do you maybe see a parallel here? Or do you maintain the Israelis remain as innocent as lambs? Is it okay in your mind when the IDF uses captured Palestinian civilians as human shields but not okay when Hamas uses captured Israeli civilians in the same way?

Based on this piece and previous reporting of the same technique, along with the video of a Palestinian civilian being used as a literal human shield strapped to the hood of an IDF Humvee, it would seem to be a commonplace and widespread practice, especially since IDF soldiers use slang terms like "wasps" and "mosquitos" to describe Palestinians used in this way.

Of course, this is just an extension of the Israeli government's refusal to recognize a Palestinian state since apparently "those people" are unworthy of the inalienable right to self-governance. And many of us seem to be perfectly fine with Palestinian noncombatants being rounded up, held in prisons and treated as hostages, sexually assaulted, and refused medical care or visits by international human rights groups like the Red Cross.

 

How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza
Israeli soldiers and Palestinian former detainees say troops have regularly forced captured Gazans to carry out life-threatening tasks, including inside Hamas tunnels.

After Israeli soldiers found Mohammed Shubeir hiding with his family in early March, they detained him for roughly 10 days before releasing him without charge, he said.

During that time, Mr. Shubeir said, the soldiers used him as a human shield.

Mr. Shubeir, then 17, said he was forced to walk handcuffed through the empty ruins of his hometown, Khan Younis, in southern Gaza, searching for explosives set by Hamas. To avoid being blown up themselves, the soldiers made him go ahead, Mr. Shubeir said.

In one wrecked building, he stopped in his tracks: Running along the wall, he said, was a series of wires attached to explosives.

“The soldiers sent me like a dog to a booby-trapped apartment,” said Mr. Shubeir, a high school student. “I thought these would be the last moments of my life.”

QuoteAn investigation by The New York Times found that Israeli soldiers and intelligence agents, throughout the war in Gaza, have regularly forced captured Palestinians like Mr. Shubeir to conduct life-threatening reconnaissance missions to avoid putting Israeli soldiers at risk on the battlefield.

 

An investigation by The New York Times found that Israeli soldiers and intelligence agents, throughout the war in Gaza, have regularly forced captured Palestinians like Mr. Shubeir to conduct life-threatening reconnaissance missions to avoid putting Israeli soldiers at risk on the battlefield.

While the extent and scale of such operations are unknown, the practice, illegal under both Israeli and international law, has been used by at least 11 squads in five cities in Gaza, often with the involvement of officers from Israeli intelligence agencies.

Palestinian detainees have been coerced to explore places in Gaza where the Israeli military believes that Hamas militants have prepared an ambush or a booby trap. The practice has gradually become more widespread since the start of the war last October.

Detainees have been forced to scout and film inside tunnel networks where soldiers believed fighters were still hiding. They have entered buildings rigged with mines to find hidden explosives. They have been told to pick up or move objects like generators and water tanks that Israeli soldiers feared concealed tunnel entrances or booby traps.

The Times interviewed seven Israeli soldiers who observed or participated in the practice and presented it as routine, commonplace and organized, conducted with considerable logistical support and the knowledge of superiors on the battlefield. Many of them said the detainees were handled and often transported between the squads by officers from Israel’s intelligence agencies, a process that required coordination between battalions and the awareness of senior field commanders. And though they served in different parts of Gaza at different points in the war, the soldiers largely used the same terms to refer to human shields.

The Times also spoke to eight soldiers and officials briefed on the practice who all spoke on the condition of anonymity in order to discuss a military secret. Maj. Gen. Tamir Hayman, a former chief of military intelligence who is routinely briefed by top military and defense officials on the conduct of the war, confirmed the use of one version of the practice, saying that some detainees had been coerced into entering tunnels while others had volunteered to accompany troops and act as their guides, in the hope of gaining favor with the military. And three Palestinians gave on-the-record accounts about being used as human shields.

The Times found no evidence of any detainees being harmed or killed while being used as human shields. In one case, an Israeli officer was shot and killed after a detainee sent to search a building either did not detect or failed to report a militant hiding there.

The Israeli military said in a statement that its “directives and guidelines strictly prohibit the use of detained Gaza civilians for military operations.” It added that the accounts of the Palestinian detainees and soldiers interviewed by The Times would be “examined by the relevant authorities.”

International law forbids the use of civilians or combatants as a shield against attack. It is also illegal to send captured combatants to places where they would be exposed to fire, or to force civilians to do anything related to the conduct of military operations.

While the laws are vaguer about the rights of people detained during conflicts with a nonstate actor like Hamas, it is illegal to force Palestinian detainees to explore dangerous places “regardless of whether those detainees are civilians or members of the fighting wing of Hamas,” said Lawrence Hill-Cawthorne, a professor at the University of Bristol in England and an expert on laws governing detention in conflicts with nonstate actors.

The Israeli military employed a similar practice, known as the “neighbor procedure,” in Gaza and the West Bank in the early 2000s. Soldiers would force Palestinian civilians to approach the homes of militants to persuade them to surrender.

That procedure was banned in 2005 by Israel’s Supreme Court, in an expansive ruling that also outlawed the use of human shields in other contexts. The court’s president, Aharon Barak, ruled that a resident of an occupied territory “should not be brought, even with his consent, into an area where a military operation is taking place.”

The power imbalance between soldier and civilian, his decision said, meant that no one could be considered to have volunteered for such a task. Soldiers should also not ask civilians to do things they assumed were safe, the ruling added, given that “this assumption is sometimes unfounded.”

The war in Gaza began last October when Hamas and its allies committed widespread atrocities in Israel before retreating into underground tunnels to escape a devastating Israeli counterattack that has killed tens of thousands of Palestinians.

Accused of acting without enough concern for civilian casualties, Israel has defended itself by saying that Hamas embeds its fighters and weapons in civilian areas, effectively using entire communities as human shields.

Israeli soldiers have used human shields in a different way.

Prof. Michael N. Schmitt, a scholar at West Point who has studied the use of human shields in armed conflicts, said he was unaware of another military routinely using civilians, prisoners of war or captured terrorists for life-threatening reconnaissance missions in recent decades. Military historians say the practice was used by U.S. forces in Vietnam.

“In most cases,” Professor Schmitt said, “this constitutes a war crime.”

The soldiers who spoke to The Times said they began using the practice during the current war because of a desire to limit the risks to infantry.

Some of the soldiers who saw or participated in the practice found it deeply troubling, prompting them to take the risk of discussing a military secret with a journalist. Two were connected to The Times by Breaking the Silence, an independent watchdog that gathers testimony from Israeli soldiers.

Two soldiers said that members of their squads, which each comprised roughly 20 people, expressed opposition to commanders. Soldiers said some low-ranking officers tried to justify the practice by claiming, without proof, that the detainees were terrorists rather than civilians held without charge.

They said they were told that the lives of terrorists were worth less than those of Israelis — even though officers often concluded their detainees did not belong to terrorist groups and later released them without charge, according to an Israeli soldier and the three Palestinians who spoke to The Times.

One Israeli squad forced a crowd of displaced Palestinians to walk ahead for cover as it advanced toward a militant hide-out in central Gaza City, according to Jehad Siam, 31, a Palestinian graphic designer who was part of the group.

“The soldiers asked us to move forward so that the other side wouldn’t shoot back,” Mr. Siam said. Once the crowd reached the hide-out, the soldiers emerged from behind the civilians and surged inside the building, Mr. Siam said.

After seemingly killing the militants, Mr. Siam said, the soldiers let the civilians go unharmed.

A picture provided by Breaking the Silence, a watchdog group, showing Israeli soldiers and two Palestinian detainees who were sent into homes suspected to be booby-trapped in Gaza City.

Searching a Yard at Gunpoint
Hamas has turned large parts of Gaza into a labyrinth of booby traps and hidden tunnel networks, rigging civilian homes and institutions with explosive traps or using them as temporary military bases and arms caches.

After invading Gaza in late October, Israeli soldiers said they found they were often at most risk when entering homes or tunnel entrances possibly lined with traps. To combat that threat, they used drones and sniffer dogs to scout a location before entering.

When no dogs or drones were available or when officers believed a human would be more effective, they sometimes sent in Palestinians.

Basheer al-Dalou, a pharmacist from Gaza City, said he was forced to act as a human shield on the morning of Nov. 13, after being captured at his home. Mr. al-Dalou, now 43, had fled the neighborhood with his wife and four sons weeks earlier, but had briefly returned to fetch some basic supplies, even though the neighborhood was a battlefield.

The soldiers ordered Mr. al-Dalou to strip to his underwear, then handcuffed and blindfolded him, he said in an interview in Gaza after his release without charge.

After being interrogated about Hamas activities in the area, Mr. al-Dalou said, he was ordered by the soldiers to enter the backyard of a nearby five-story home. The yard was littered with debris, including birdcages, water tanks, gardening tools, broken chairs, shattered glass and a large generator, he said.

“Behind me, three soldiers pushed me forward violently,” Mr. al-Dalou recalled. “They were afraid of potential tunnels under the ground or explosives hidden under any object there.” Walking barefoot, he cut his feet on the shards of glass, he said.

After being provided with the location, date and description of Mr. al-Dalou’s experience, the military declined to comment. His description echoed accounts of similar episodes from 10 Israeli soldiers who also described witnessing or being briefed on how Palestinian detainees had been used to scour buildings and yards.

Roughly seven or eight soldiers hid behind the rubble of the yard’s shattered wall, taking cover in case Mr. al-Dalou stumbled across a bomb, he said. One of them directed him using a loudspeaker.

With his hands tied behind his back, he said, Mr. al-Dalou was ordered to walk around the yard, kicking bricks, scraps of metal and empty boxes. At some point, the soldiers tied his hands in front of him so that he could more easily shunt suspicious objects in his path.

Then something stirred suddenly from behind a generator in the yard. The soldiers started firing toward the source of the noise, narrowly missing Mr. al-Dalou, he said. It turned out to be a cat.

Next, the soldiers ordered him to try to shift the generator, suspecting that it concealed a tunnel entrance, he said. After Mr. al-Dalou hesitated, fearing that Hamas fighters might emerge from within, a soldier hit his back with his rifle butt, Mr. al-Dalou said.

A picture provided by Breaking the Silence of two Israeli soldiers forcing a Palestinian detainee to walk first into a dangerous area.

Later that day, he said, he was ordered to walk in front of an Israeli tank as it advanced toward a mosque where soldiers worried they would encounter militants. Some of his neighbors were taken to look for tunnel entrances at a nearby hospital, Al-Rantisi, and he has not seen them since, he said.

That evening, he said, he was taken to a detention center in Israel. Given his experiences that day, he said, the transfer felt like a small blessing, even though he expected to face abuse inside Israeli jails.

“I was over the moon at that moment,” Mr. al-Dalou remembered thinking. “‘I will leave this danger zone for a safer place inside the Israeli prisons.’”

Beneath a U.N. Compound
In early February, the Israeli military captured the Gaza City headquarters of UNRWA, the main United Nations agency for Palestinian refugees.

Discovering that Hamas’s tunnel network extended beneath the compound, military engineers drilled into the ground to create new access points.

At one point, the engineers lowered a camera into the tunnels using a rope, so that they could more clearly see what was inside, according to a soldier involved in the operation. Watching a live feed from the camera, the engineers saw a man inside the tunnel, probably a Hamas operative.

Concluding that Hamas fighters were still using the tunnel, the officers at the site decided that they would send a Palestinian with a bodycam to explore it further, instead of Israeli engineers, the soldier said.

Two other soldiers confirmed that this soldier’s account generally matched how engineers typically deployed Palestinians in tunnels. This soldier’s description of the site also matched that of a reporter for The Times who visited it shortly afterward with a military escort but did not see any Palestinians.

After being provided with the location, date and description of the soldier’s experience, the military declined to comment.

At first, the officers considered deploying one of the several dozen Palestinian civilians who had been captured in the area and were being held until the operation ended, the soldier said.

Eventually, the officers decided to send what they called a “wasp,” or a Palestinian detained in Israel, for reasons that were not clear to the soldier. That set off a more complicated process that took several days and considerable coordination with other units to complete, the soldier said.

Throughout the war, soldiers across different units generally referred to the detainees by the same terms. A “wasp” generally meant people brought to Gaza from Israel by intelligence officers for brief and specific missions; however, some soldiers said it referred to paid collaborators who voluntarily entered Gaza, while others said it referred to detainees. A “mosquito” described detainees who were captured in Gaza and swiftly deployed without being taken to Israel, sometimes for several days and even weeks. “Mosquitoes” were used far more often than “wasps.”

They were all considered expendable, the soldier said. “If the tunnel explodes, at least he will die and not one of us,” he recalled an officer saying.

Inside the tunnel underneath the U.N. compound, the unit discovered a huge bank of computer servers that the Israeli military later concluded was a major Hamas communications hub.

Days later, the military brought a group of journalists, including from The Times, to see the servers in the tunnels.

The military escorts did not disclose that a Palestinian detainee had been used to explore the area. The Times discovered his involvement nearly four months afterward.

Instructed by a Drone
Mr. Shubeir was captured after the army overran his neighborhood on the edge of Khan Younis, in southern Gaza.

The army had ordered the residents to evacuate, but the Shubeir family decided to wait out the looming Israeli advance in its fourth-floor apartment. To leave, the Shubeirs would have had to pass through Israeli checkpoints, where they faced the possibility of arrest and detention.

The Shubeirs soon found themselves in the middle of a battle, Mr. Shubeir said. Shells struck their building, killing his father, a blacksmith, Mr. Shubeir said. His sister, 15, was later shot and killed after Israeli soldiers entered the building, he said. Mr. Shubeir said he was captured and separated from his surviving relatives.

Until his release without charge some 10 days later, Mr. Shubeir said, he was often sent by the soldiers to wander the streets of Khan Younis accompanied by only a small overhead drone known as a quadcopter. The drone monitored his movements and issued instructions to him from its loudspeaker.

Near a neighborhood school, he was ordered to search through rubble for tunnel entrances, said Mr. Shubeir, who was previously interviewed by Al Jazeera. He said he was sent inside apartment blocks, the small drone hovering a yard or two from his head. He was told to look for the bodies of militants, which the Israelis typically feared were booby-trapped.

In one apartment, he saw the booby trap that had him fearing for his life.

“It was the hardest thing I have experienced,” he said. “I understood it was a trap.”

In the end, the device did not explode, for reasons he said he did not understand.

In another apartment, he found a body with a gun lying next to it, he said. Mr. Shubeir was told to throw the gun from a window for the Israeli soldiers to collect, he said.

A few days before his release, the soldiers untied his hands and made him wear an Israeli military uniform, he said. Then they set him loose, telling him to wander the streets, so that Hamas fighters might fire at him and reveal their positions, he said. The Israelis followed at a distance, out of sight.

His hands free for the first time in days, he considered trying to flee, he said.

Then he decided against it.

“The quadcopter was following me and watching what I was doing,” he said. “They will shoot me.”

 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

4 hours ago, statsman said:

What? Is it your contention that posting a link to a news story from the news reporting (not editorial) section of the WSJ is shit posting? 
 
Can a moderator chime in on whether that is the standard here?

I thought it was an editorial. I can see that I was mistaken now, my fault, I take it back!

[Brian Fantana 6672]

58 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, I don't know why a news article from the WSJ wouldn't be considered a credible source of information. Sure, it's right-leaning, but it's widely viewed as reliable and accurate reporting. Its editorial board is pretty fucking nuts, but the news section is good, even with an inevitable slight bias you might get from just about any major publication.

 

4 hours ago, Rex Kramer said:

WSJ isn’t a good enough source. Wow.

Yeah this is literally what I thought it was. That's what I get for staying up too late. I'll take the L on that one, totally my bad.

[wildcat09 29306]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, I don't know why a news article from the WSJ wouldn't be considered a credible source of information. Sure, it's right-leaning, but it's widely viewed as reliable and accurate reporting. Its editorial board is pretty fucking nuts, but the news section is good, even with an inevitable slight bias you might get from just about any major publication.

On a different note, here's another article about the IDF using Palestinians as human shields (an obvious war crime) in their operations. Tell me, @statsman, you posted an article a few weeks ago about Russians dehumanizing Ukrainians. Do you maybe see a parallel here? Or do you maintain the Israelis remain as innocent as lambs? Is it okay in your mind when the IDF uses captured Palestinian civilians as human shields but not okay when Hamas uses captured Israeli civilians in the same way?

Based on this piece and previous reporting of the same technique, along with the video of a Palestinian civilian being used as a literal human shield strapped to the hood of an IDF Humvee, it would seem to be a commonplace and widespread practice, especially since IDF soldiers use slang terms like "wasps" and "mosquitos" to describe Palestinians used in this way.

Of course, this is just an extension of the Israeli government's refusal to recognize a Palestinian state since apparently "those people" are unworthy of the inalienable right to self-governance. And many of us seem to be perfectly fine with Palestinian noncombatants being rounded up, held in prisons and treated as hostages, sexually assaulted, and refused medical care or visits by international human rights groups like the Red Cross.

 

How Israel’s Army Uses Palestinians as Human Shields in Gaza
Israeli soldiers and Palestinian former detainees say troops have regularly forced captured Gazans to carry out life-threatening tasks, including inside Hamas tunnels.

After Israeli soldiers found Mohammed Shubeir hiding with his family in early March, they detained him for roughly 10 days before releasing him without charge, he said.

During that time, Mr. Shubeir said, the soldiers used him as a human shield.

Mr. Shubeir, then 17, said he was forced to walk handcuffed through the empty ruins of his hometown, Khan Younis, in southern Gaza, searching for explosives set by Hamas. To avoid being blown up themselves, the soldiers made him go ahead, Mr. Shubeir said.

In one wrecked building, he stopped in his tracks: Running along the wall, he said, was a series of wires attached to explosives.

“The soldiers sent me like a dog to a booby-trapped apartment,” said Mr. Shubeir, a high school student. “I thought these would be the last moments of my life.”

 

"It's ok when we do it because _________." IDF and Hamas defenders are the same people.

[bolverk 29486]

This American Life had an excellent piece last week about the Israeli hostages held by Hamas.

https://www.thisamericanlife.org/842/51-days

 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

FT reporting similar.  I am not sure why this is contested, the UNIFL mission has a mandate but not the authority to actually do anything about Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon. 
 

 

Some related reporting

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/14/attacks-by-hezbollah-and-iran-showed-a-degree-of-israeli-vulnerability-what-now

[statsman 5431]

OK, Bolverk, I’m going to get negged, but here goes. 
 
I have been told by lots of posters that all of these issues had been hashed out, the details, the history, the stances, if I would just read the entirety. I have read and searched a lot, but the question that is so little discussed (although one of the most important questions affecting Israel and the Palestinians) is: “What’s the ask?”

Protests on campus calling for BDS. Campus faculties voting for BDS (more in Europe than the U.S.). What’s the ask? What does Israel have to do, what discrete act, to drop the calls for BDS?

UN condemnations, pre war. What’s the ask? There has to be something specific and concrete, right? Beyond the public demands to divest from Israel, what do they want from Israel to drop the demands?

From my googling (because it is always talked around in public pronouncements), the ask is”right of return”, allowing descendants of displaced Palestinians (displaced voluntarily or involuntarily, driven out by Israelis, British, or fleeing a lost war) to resume residence within the borders of Israel. 
 
Is that getting it wrong? Is something else the “ask”, that would cease the condemnations, that would remove the calls for BDS, if Israel would just comply? We know it’s not just having a Palestinian state- that has been offered and rejected. Even though Israel is not at all a fan of a (presumably hostile) Palestinian state bordering them, they have been led to such agreements in the past. Is there something else than “right of return” that I am missing? 

If that’s the demand, I see a problem. Israel has a population of 9.2 million. UNRWA has 5.6 million refugees registered. Two million Israelis are not Jewish. The minute right of return is executed, Jews are a minority in Israel. At that point, Israel has two choices: no longer be a Jewish state, or remain a Jewish state by becoming a true apartheid system (which we all know they wouldn’t do, and is unworkable). Does anyone think either option doesn’t bring a lot of massacres of innocents?
 
Now, after negging me, telling me that I’m stupid, that I don’t know anything about this, please explain to me where I am wrong. Tell me what the real “ask” is, that would please global community aligned against Israel (anti-Zionists of bourse, not anti-Semites, because they would never be anti-Semites. Zionism is the worst thing in the world, worse than organ harvesting of enslaved Uighur, of Rohingya ethnic cleansing or massacres of black Sudanese by Arab Sudanese. Zionism is the evil that gets the kids out protesting).
 
Now, I suspect that most of the protesters haven’t thought it through much beyond “injustice done to Palestinians, Israel not helping”. I think most Israel critics are people of good will. I just don’t know that they have thought through the ultimate goals of the anti-Israel protest leaders and movements. 
 
What is the demand, the thing Israel could do to satisfy its critics? To me, it looks like, more than any, a lot of the world doesn’t really mind if Israel were to go away (diaspora preferred, obviously, over pogrom and holocaust). 
 
That’s why I am sympathetic to Israel, as a bias. This looks like an existential conflict for them and they have precious view allies. The European nations the Jews fled after the Holocaust- the nations that remain so happy that they can blame their Holocaust activities on the Nazis (much like how the citizens of Tulsa get to blame the Klan for their 1920 massacre)- they are done with this. Hey- you can’t call the Euros anti-Semites! They have laws against anti-Semitic speech!

What about the Palestinians? I do have sympathy for them. It seems that many of the world’s actors see them more as pawns than real clients for help. The UNRWA is established to maintain, not relieve, their refugee status, generation after generation. The Palestinians have had the crappiest leadership, focused more on fighting, killing and using the populace as shields than actually caring for them. I would like for them to have a liberal democracy state, and have no interest in them having any other kind. I know that’s a shitty thing to say, given that their circumstance will not allow liberal democratic leaders to appear. 
 
I haven’t posted anything about Netanyahu. He will be gone from the scene, soon, and I’m not really expecting that to change the political calculus much. 
 
Sigh. Neg away. 

[bolverk 29486]

Since you're asking me, @statsman, I only "ask" that Israel stay within its internationally recognized 1967 borders and allow space for the Palestinians to figure out their own shit within a wholly independent and fully sovereign West Bank and Gaza that's not suffering from a crippling Israeli blockade or illegal occupation.

[statsman 5431]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

Since you're asking me, @statsman, I only "ask" that Israel stay within its internationally recognized 1967 borders and allow space for the Palestinians to figure out their own shit within a wholly independent and fully sovereign West Bank and Gaza that's not suffering from a crippling Israeli blockade or illegal occupation.

What are they allowed to do for their security, given active hostility from Iran and its clients?

[Brian Fantana 6672]

@statsman with regard to right of return, I think that most people support a two-state solution. Your assertion that Jews would become a minority in Israel only really applies if a single state is the solution. I generally consider any discussion with regard to a one-state solution as fundamentally unserious.

26 minutes ago, statsman said:

What about the Palestinians? I do have sympathy for them. It seems that many of the world’s actors see them more as pawns than real clients for help. The UNRWA is established to maintain, not relieve, their refugee status, generation after generation. The Palestinians have had the crappiest leadership, focused more on fighting, killing and using the populace as shields than actually caring for them. I would like for them to have a liberal democracy state, and have no interest in them having any other kind. I know that’s a shitty thing to say, given that their circumstance will not allow liberal democratic leaders to appear. 

The bolded illustrates the issue I often have with your posting on the topic, because you are completely blind to the fact that this absolutely applies to Israel as well. You simply don't apply the same standard of behavior to them because they're not Arabs.

[bolverk 29486]

1 minute ago, statsman said:

What are they allowed to do for their security, given active hostility from Iran and its clients?

As a fully sovereign state, Israel (I assume that's who the "they" you're referring to) has every right to defend its territorial integrity within its internationally recognized 1967 borders. They should not be "allowed" to colonize territory in the West Bank and Gaza. The same applies to every nation on earth -- just as we oppose Russia trying to take away land from Ukrainians or denying their right to self-governance.

I mean, that one principle is pretty fucking straightforward and simple. It shouldn't be too hard to stand by, but somehow, a lot of Americans seem to have a problem with understanding it as they cheerlead 1,000-lb bombs being dropped on civilians.

[wildcat09 29306]

It should be noted that Israel colonizing territory in the West Bank and Gaza isn't really unique.  Russia is attempting to do the same in Ukraine right now, China is threatening Taiwan, hell there's numerous Republicans who quite literally want us to invade Mexico and conquer some of its territory. 

It's only very recently in human history that humanity really developed a commonly-held moral opposition to military expansionism, which developed in response to the horrors of the world wars that resulted from a bunch of shitty heads of state thinking it was cool and good to try and expand their borders.  The post-World War 2 international order definitely has its faults, but it was a damned sight better for most people than what came before, which Netanyahu, Trump, Putin, Erdogan, Orban, etc. want to go back to. "It's only ok when Israel does it" just isn't a compelling argument against that shit. 

[Bullneck 19036]

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

The footage is wild, never seen anything like that

[Brian Fantana 6672]

Love how we just let Bibi make us his bitch over and over.

[Brian Fantana 6672]

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/what-john-kelly-said-about-trumps-praise-of-hitler-and-fascist-tendencies

All this kind of makes me wonder why the ADL hasn't made a statement on this shit yet. I mean, I know why, but still.

[Evil Bill Obrien 3221]

 

 

 

 

[Leeroy Jenkins 2394]

Fucking great. You knew he was going to do that before the election.

[Biff Tannen 45577]

Oh good. This should go well. 

[Brian Fantana 6672]

19 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Fucking great. You knew he was going to do that before the election.

A whole bunch of people posting in the election thread that are voting/have voted for Kamala will just look at OSINT twitter and drool and not even have a single thought that this is absolutely intended to try and torpedo her chances at winning. Trump and Bibi colluding? No big deal, more billions, more weapons. Fingers in ears. La la la la la.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33854]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

A whole bunch of people posting in the election thread that are voting/have voted for Kamala will just look at OSINT twitter and drool and not even have a single thought that this is absolutely intended to try and torpedo her chances at winning. Trump and Bibi colluding? No big deal, more billions, more weapons. Fingers in ears. La la la la la.

something something election interference

[RomaVicta 29847]

Fuckin' Middle East. Fuckin' fascists.

[mdmost 42954]

6 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

A whole bunch of people posting in the election thread that are voting/have voted for Kamala will just look at OSINT twitter and drool and not even have a single thought that this is absolutely intended to try and torpedo her chances at winning. Trump and Bibi colluding? No big deal, more billions, more weapons. Fingers in ears. La la la la la.

We're not all 3putt who seems weirdly horny for war with Iran. Almost like war with Iran is a big fat girl with daddy issues. 

[HellesBier 188]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

A whole bunch of people posting in the election thread that are voting/have voted for Kamala will just look at OSINT twitter and drool and not even have a single thought that this is absolutely intended to try and torpedo her chances at winning. Trump and Bibi colluding? No big deal, more billions, more weapons. Fingers in ears. La la la la la.

She torpedoed her chance of winning when she got in front of a camera. She toast, mate.

[Brian Fantana 6672]

34 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

She torpedoed her chance of winning when she got in front of a camera. She toast, mate.

You're mentally ill, mate. Motherfucker cares enough to go to Ukraine to help out and still votes Trump. Go post in this thread if you have any balls.

 

[HellesBier 188]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're mentally ill, mate. Motherfucker cares enough to go to Ukraine to help out and still votes Trump. Go post in this thread if you have any balls.

 

I can look at Ukraine and look at the democrats and not think everything is black and white. Why is that so hard for you. Republicans have been after the Russians since the 50s. I understand that is very hard for you to understand and I appreciate the insult brother, it says a lot about you.

[Brian Fantana 6672]

20 minutes ago, HellesBier said:

I can look at Ukraine and look at the democrats and not think everything is black and white. Why is that so hard for you. Republicans have been after the Russians since the 50s. I understand that is very hard for you to understand and I appreciate the insult brother, it says a lot about you.

Dude you have said way, way worse about me in the DT thread. Every accusation a confession etc etc.

[DDD Dad 14272]

3 hours ago, mdmost said:

We're not all 3putt who seems weirdly horny for war with Iran. Almost like war with Iran is a big fat girl with daddy issues. 

Live look at Vic Mackey:

[Burt 4075]

Regardless of your thoughts on this Israel-Iran "thing", you gotta admit that this is a spectacular set of frame-by-frame photos captured by an AP photographer.

[mdmost 42954]

I'm curious if Blinken's diplomacy led to this limited response from Israel on targets in Iran. I'm hopeful Blinken told Bibi that we're not supporting any larger effort from Israel and we're only going to help defensively. The last thing we need is a wider war in that region, especially when that fuckface keeps pushing past our calls for a ceasefire. 

[WhatTheBuck 28730]

23 hours ago, Burt said:

Regardless of your thoughts on this Israel-Iran "thing", you gotta admit that this is a spectacular set of frame-by-frame photos captured by an AP photographer.

Missing a few frames.