Jump to content

Recommended Posts

Posted

Hostage releases suspended.

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c2056vkpkrgt

Hamas's statement - in fullpublished at 10:16

10:16

Here's the full statement from Hamas's armed wing:

"Over the past three weeks, the leadership of the resistance has monitored the enemy’s violations and its failure to comply with the terms of the agreement.

"These violations include delaying the return of displaced persons to northern Gaza, targeting them with shelling and gunfire in various areas of the Strip, and failing to allow the entry of humanitarian aid in all its agreed-upon forms.

"Meanwhile, the resistance has fully honoured its commitments.

"Accordingly, the release of the Zionist prisoners, which was scheduled for Saturday, February 15, 2025, will be postponed until further notice, pending the enemy’s compliance and the retroactive fulfillment of the past weeks’ obligations.

"We reaffirm our commitment to the terms of the agreement as long as the occupation adheres to them."

We'll bring you Israel's reaction as soon as we have it.

Posted

I find it mildly shocking Hamas has enough remaining personnel to hold hostages and put out a press release. I’m pretty sure I know how Israel will respond. Exactly as they should. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted

Did anyone seriously think either side would hold to the terms of the “deal”?  Netanyahu was always going to do the bare minimum, if that, in an effort to provoke Hamas to break the deal and give him cover to finish off the strip and the people in it.  And because Hamas are dumbasses they fall for it.  

Posted

What's next?  Ukraine?  Drop a few stray bombs on Greenland and consider it "war-torn" and just go in and take it?  Panama?  Canada?  

I tell ya, this guy sees everything through the eyes of what he can put his name on.  Property, buildings, countries.  That's the legacy he's shooting for, he's just placating all his minions by feeding their own little P2025 appetites, but in the end it's all about what he can conquer and give to America's oligarchs.  

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Rage+1 1
Posted

Palestine shouldn’t exist because they think Israel shouldn’t exist because they think Palestine shouldn’t exist and back and forth and so on and so forth for 75 fucking years and to eternity. Pretty sure any opinion that praises BIbi should be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

  • Like 1
Posted

🤘peace and love dude. Hope your brother gets better soon, that sounds awful. 
 

We will always be here talking heaps of shit to one another, so come back when you’re ready

  • Hook 'Em 3
  • Like 3
Posted
7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

@SydneyCarton apologies for never getting around to responding. My little brother was in a serious accident on his dirt bike and is currently in a coma, I was posting from the hospital whenever I posted that brief reply...hence why I haven't made any posts in the last week or so. I would be happy to continue the discussion at a later time, but I don't currently have the mental bandwidth to do arguments on the internet. Peace and love, homies.

No worries dude, it's a message board and we all know life can interfere, and it sounds like life has interefered with you in the worst possible way. 

I'm really sorry to hear about you and your family's current struggles. Everyone here is hoping for a full recovery for your brother. 

  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 2
Posted
8 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

@SydneyCarton apologies for never getting around to responding. My little brother was in a serious accident on his dirt bike and is currently in a coma, I was posting from the hospital whenever I posted that brief reply...hence why I haven't made any posts in the last week or so. I would be happy to continue the discussion at a later time, but I don't currently have the mental bandwidth to do arguments on the internet. Peace and love, homies.

Holy crap, that's awful.  My best to you, your brother and your family.

  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

No worries dude, it's a message board and we all know life can interfere, and it sounds like life has interefered with you in the worst possible way. 

I'm really sorry to hear about you and your family's current struggles. Everyone here is hoping for a full recovery for your brother. 

 

1 hour ago, jimmyjazz said:

Holy crap, that's awful.  My best to you, your brother and your family.

Thanks fellas. I should have clarified, he is in a medically induced coma. They put him under to treat his traumatic brain injury, he is expected to recover eventually as long as nothing unexpected goes wrong, but it will be a process and it's been tough on all of us. The fucking idiot wasn't wearing a proper helmet and I'm going to kick his ass after he recovers.

  • Hook 'Em 5
  • Like 3
Posted
11 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Thanks fellas. I should have clarified, he is in a medically induced coma. They put him under to treat his traumatic brain injury, he is expected to recover eventually as long as nothing unexpected goes wrong, but it will be a process and it's been tough on all of us. The fucking idiot wasn't wearing a proper helmet and I'm going to kick his ass after he recovers.

I mean, I appreciate the clarity, but even being in a medically induced coma is still horrible. Traumatic brain injuries can change people completely and have serious long term remifications for health and personality on people. It could be a longer road than you can imagine.

When you kick his ass definitely refrain from hitting him in the head at all. Stick to the body, or maybe straight to the genitals. 

Straight to the Genitals is a quality band name, if i do say so myself. 

  • Like 1
  • 3 weeks later...
Posted

Sickening. A photo from the NYT:

image.png.14aa998f221306bce20f2a79014be645.png

 

Destruction in Jabaliya, in the northern Gaza Strip, in January.

I had to lean in when I saw the photo because I didn't know what I was looking at. Then you see the skeletons of burnt and hollowed out buildings. Israel drops a 1000 pound bomb on an apartment building because they say Hamas fighters were there. This is what you get.

This is also what Israel wants. This is a repulsive image of a mercilessly carried out plan to displace people from their homes forever.

I guess where I see ruin, Donald Trump sees resort opportunities.

spacer.png

  • Rage+1 1
Posted
1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Very, very soon, people will start getting deported and/or thrown in jail for being critical of Israel.

[Elon Musk]BUT FREE SPEECH!!![/Elon Musk]

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1
Posted
3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Very, very soon, people will start getting deported and/or thrown in jail for being critical of Israel.

Not just Israel. Anyone critical of Trump or Elon is liable to face consequences.

  • Like 2
Posted

Krasnov's election has Netanyahu also feeling his authoritarian oats.

Netanyahu’s Move to Fire Shin Bet Chief Reflects Wider Push for Control
The effort is part of a dispute between Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing alliance and its opponents about the nature and future of the Israeli state.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s sudden attempt to remove the head of Israel’s domestic intelligence agency is the latest salvo in a two-year campaign by the Israeli government to exert more control over different branches of the state.

Mr. Netanyahu’s plan to hold a cabinet vote on the future of Ronen Bar, the head of the agency known as the Shin Bet, was announced less than a month after his government announced a similar intention to dismiss Gali Baharav-Miara, the Israeli attorney general. It also came amid a renewed push in Parliament by Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition to give politicians greater control over the selection of Supreme Court justices.

These moves mark a return to Mr. Netanyahu’s failed efforts in 2023 to reduce the power of state watchdogs that had acted as a check on his government’s power, including the Supreme Court and the attorney general.

That program — often described as a judicial overhaul — proved deeply divisive, setting off months of mass protests and widening rifts in Israeli society. The campaign was suspended only after the Hamas-led attack on Israel in October 2023 revived a sense of national unity. Now, amid a shaky cease-fire in Gaza, the easing of tension appears to have ended.

“The removal of the head of the Shin Bet should not be seen in isolation,” said Amichai Cohen, a law professor and fellow at the Israel Democracy Institute, a Jerusalem-based research group. “It’s part of the general trend of taking on these independent agencies and increasing the power of the executive.”

“The judicial overhaul is back,” Professor Cohen added.

The immediate context to the attempt to fire Mr. Bar was a personal dispute between the security chief and the prime minister. For months, Mr. Bar had angered Mr. Netanyahu by investigating officials in the prime minister’s office over claims that they had leaked secret documents. Mr. Netanyahu has denied wrongdoing.

The final straw for Mr. Netanyahu, analysts said, was most likely a rare public intervention last week from Mr. Bar’s predecessor, Nadav Argaman. In a television interview, Mr. Argaman said he might reveal further accusations of wrongdoing by the prime minister if he believed that Mr. Netanyahu was about to break the law.

Such comments from a close ally of Mr. Bar were “too much” for Mr. Netanyahu, said Nadav Shtrauchler, a former adviser to the prime minister. “He saw it as a direct threat,” Mr. Shtrauchler said. “In his eyes, he didn’t have a choice.”

But the broader context, analysts said, is a much wider dispute between Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing alliance and its opponents about the nature and future of the Israeli state.

Mr. Netanyahu’s governing coalition is formed from parties that variously represent ultrareligious Jews seeking to preserve their privileges; and settler activists aiming to deepen Israel’s control over the West Bank and further curb Palestinian rights.

For years, these groups have resented the independence of watchdogs like the judiciary, the attorney general and the security services, which have variously moved to limit some privileges for the ultra-Orthodox; block certain moves by the settler movement; and prosecute Mr. Netanyahu for corruption. He is standing trial on charges that he denies.

The government and its supporters say that reining in the judiciary and other gatekeepers like the Shin Bet actually enhances democracy by making lawmakers freer to enact what voters elected them to do.

The Shin Bet has “poked their noses into matters of governance, control, values, social cohesion and, of course, democracy,” Eithan Orkibi wrote in column on Monday for Israel Hayom, a right-wing daily newspaper. After Mr. Bar’s dismissal, Mr. Orkibi continued, the Shin Bet will “slowly be returned to their natural professional territory.”

But the opposition says such moves would damage democracy by removing a key check on government overreach, allowing Mr. Netanyahu’s coalition — the most conservative and nationalist in Israel’s history — to create a less pluralist and more authoritarian society.

“With a submissive coalition of yes men, Netanyahu is on his way to dismantling all of Israel’s gatekeepers,” Barak Seri wrote in a column for Maariv, a center-right daily. “To dismantling everything that is protecting Israel as we have known it since its establishment.”

Posted

I see that statsman is still on the ethnic cleansing train, even more so than the typical Israeli.

Israelis Take to Streets a Day After Gaza Strikes
Israeli protests are converging over the war in Gaza and domestic politics amid concerns about a government push to reduce the power of state watchdogs.

Thousands of Israelis gathered on Wednesday outside the Parliament building in Jerusalem to call for a renewed cease-fire deal in Gaza and to protest political moves by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, including firing the head of the Shin Bet intelligence agency.

The convergence of popular anger over both domestic and national security issues came a day after Israel carried out deadly aerial attacks across the Gaza Strip in what Mr. Netanyahu said was “only the beginning.” The strikes ended a temporary truce with Hamas that began in January and added to the uncertainty over the fate of hostages still held there.

The broad sense of national solidarity over the war in Gaza, which was set off on Oct. 7, 2023, by the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel, appears to be fraying. Critics accuse Mr. Netanyahu of placing his political survival and bolstering his right-wing government ahead of the country’s best interests.

The Israeli leader appears to be emboldened by the broad backing of President Trump, who has shown little opposition to his approach in Gaza. Despite its strong support for Israel, the Biden administration periodically pushed Israel to do more to avoid civilian casualties in the territory and to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

The Trump administration appeared to back Israel’s decision to resume wide-scale attacks, with the White House saying Israel had consulted with the United States before launching its assault. This month the Trump administration bypassed Congress to send Israel $4 billion in arms and floated a new cease-fire proposal that breaks significantly with the deal signed in January.

Opinion polls indicate that a majority of Israelis favor a complete cessation of hostilities in Gaza to secure the release of up to 24 living hostages and the bodies of more than 30 others still in Gaza. But politically, Mr. Netanyahu depends on far-right members of his governing coalition who have been pressing for a resumption of fighting, with the goal of fully defeating Hamas.

cont'd:

Spoiler

Protests were initially called for Wednesday after Mr. Netanyahu announced that he was moving to dismiss Ronen Bar, the head of the Shin Bet, Israel’s domestic intelligence agency, citing a lack of personal trust between them. That has raised public concerns that future appointments may be based on loyalty.

Protesters closed down the main highway into Jerusalem during the morning hours as they marched into the city in scenes reminiscent of social and political upheaval that roiled the country in the months before the war over government plans to curb the powers of the judiciary. At the time, Israeli security chiefs and experts said the internal strife had contributed to Israel’s vulnerability and encouraged its enemies.

The centrist leader of Israel’s parliamentary opposition, Yair Lapid, called on people to join the protests in a social media post on Wednesday morning.

“This government does not stop at red,” he wrote. “The only solution is unity, not silent, submissive, or fake unity, but the unity of an entire nation coming together and saying: Enough!” He added: “This is our moment, our future, our country. Take to the streets!”

Merav Hemi, 45, traveled from northern Israel with her mother to join the protest. “The government isn’t acting in the best interests of the people,” she said, adding, “Instead, they’re serving their own political interests to stay in power.”

The government has long faced widespread anger from protesters who believe the hostages should be brought back at any cost. Mr. Netanyahu defended the surprise attack on Gaza on Tuesday, which killed more than 400 people, as the opening salvo in a campaign to pressure Hamas into releasing more hostages after weeks of fruitless negotiations.

From now on, he said, Israel will increase its military action against Hamas and negotiations will take place “only under fire.”

This month Israel blocked the entry to Gaza of all commercial goods and humanitarian assistance in its bid to pressure Hamas into extending the temporary phase of the cease-fire and releasing more hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners.

Hamas wants any further negotiations to focus on the next phase of the original cease-fire deal, reached in January, which calls for a full Israeli troop withdrawal from Gaza and ending the war. Hamas is largely rejecting Israel’s conditions for ending the war, which include the group’s laying down its arms and its leadership’s leaving the Palestinian coastal enclave.

In an effort to bridge the gap, Mr. Trump’s Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, backed a proposal approved by Israel for the immediate release of 11 living hostages and half the bodies in exchange for the release of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel and a roughly six-week extension of the temporary cease-fire. During that period, negotiations would take place toward a more permanent solution.

But Hamas has so far refused those terms, and Israel has made clear that it will not allow for a cease-fire without more hostage releases.

As with Gaza, the Trump administration appears unlikely to take Mr. Netanyahu to task for domestic moves.

After the Shin bet head is removed, prominent members of Mr. Netanyahu’s government have made clear, the next target is the attorney general, Gali Baharav-Miara, who has frequently clashed with the government. A cabinet vote late Tuesday to reinstate Itamar Ben-Gvir, an ultranationalist, as Israel’s minister of national security flouted a legal opinion by Ms. Baharav-Miara that he should not be reappointed to that role.

Some Israelis are wary of the Trump administration, which pushed Mr. Netanyahu to approve the first part of the Gaza cease-fire and hostage release deal but seems to have given him free rein since then.

“It looks great, really having President Trump on our side,” said Mitchell Barak, an Israeli pollster and analyst who worked as an aide to Mr. Netanyahu in the 1990s. But he called it a double-edged sword. If Mr. Trump changes his mind, he said, Mr. Netanyahu will have no choice and “will have to do what Trump says, whether he likes it or not.”

Louise Geva, 76, a protester from a village in central Israel, said she was thankful to Mr. Trump for pressuring Mr. Netanyahu into making the original agreement with Hamas that resulted in the release of more than two dozen hostages.

But Mr. Trump is “unpredictable,” she said, “and shouldn’t be the one we pin our hopes on.”

 

Posted
1 hour ago, bolverk said:

I see that statsman is still on the ethnic cleansing train, even more so than the typical Israeli.

Israelis Take to Streets a Day After Gaza Strikes
Israeli protests are converging over the war in Gaza and domestic politics amid concerns about a government push to reduce the power of state watchdogs.

Thousands of Israelis gathered on Wednesday outside the Parliament building in Jerusalem to call for a renewed cease-fire deal in Gaza and to protest political moves by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, including firing the head of the Shin Bet intelligence agency.

The convergence of popular anger over both domestic and national security issues came a day after Israel carried out deadly aerial attacks across the Gaza Strip in what Mr. Netanyahu said was “only the beginning.” The strikes ended a temporary truce with Hamas that began in January and added to the uncertainty over the fate of hostages still held there.

The broad sense of national solidarity over the war in Gaza, which was set off on Oct. 7, 2023, by the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel, appears to be fraying. Critics accuse Mr. Netanyahu of placing his political survival and bolstering his right-wing government ahead of the country’s best interests.

The Israeli leader appears to be emboldened by the broad backing of President Trump, who has shown little opposition to his approach in Gaza. Despite its strong support for Israel, the Biden administration periodically pushed Israel to do more to avoid civilian casualties in the territory and to alleviate the humanitarian crisis there.

The Trump administration appeared to back Israel’s decision to resume wide-scale attacks, with the White House saying Israel had consulted with the United States before launching its assault. This month the Trump administration bypassed Congress to send Israel $4 billion in arms and floated a new cease-fire proposal that breaks significantly with the deal signed in January.

Opinion polls indicate that a majority of Israelis favor a complete cessation of hostilities in Gaza to secure the release of up to 24 living hostages and the bodies of more than 30 others still in Gaza. But politically, Mr. Netanyahu depends on far-right members of his governing coalition who have been pressing for a resumption of fighting, with the goal of fully defeating Hamas.

cont'd:

  Hide contents

Protests were initially called for Wednesday after Mr. Netanyahu announced that he was moving to dismiss Ronen Bar, the head of the Shin Bet, Israel’s domestic intelligence agency, citing a lack of personal trust between them. That has raised public concerns that future appointments may be based on loyalty.

Protesters closed down the main highway into Jerusalem during the morning hours as they marched into the city in scenes reminiscent of social and political upheaval that roiled the country in the months before the war over government plans to curb the powers of the judiciary. At the time, Israeli security chiefs and experts said the internal strife had contributed to Israel’s vulnerability and encouraged its enemies.

The centrist leader of Israel’s parliamentary opposition, Yair Lapid, called on people to join the protests in a social media post on Wednesday morning.

“This government does not stop at red,” he wrote. “The only solution is unity, not silent, submissive, or fake unity, but the unity of an entire nation coming together and saying: Enough!” He added: “This is our moment, our future, our country. Take to the streets!”

Merav Hemi, 45, traveled from northern Israel with her mother to join the protest. “The government isn’t acting in the best interests of the people,” she said, adding, “Instead, they’re serving their own political interests to stay in power.”

The government has long faced widespread anger from protesters who believe the hostages should be brought back at any cost. Mr. Netanyahu defended the surprise attack on Gaza on Tuesday, which killed more than 400 people, as the opening salvo in a campaign to pressure Hamas into releasing more hostages after weeks of fruitless negotiations.

From now on, he said, Israel will increase its military action against Hamas and negotiations will take place “only under fire.”

This month Israel blocked the entry to Gaza of all commercial goods and humanitarian assistance in its bid to pressure Hamas into extending the temporary phase of the cease-fire and releasing more hostages in exchange for Palestinian prisoners.

Hamas wants any further negotiations to focus on the next phase of the original cease-fire deal, reached in January, which calls for a full Israeli troop withdrawal from Gaza and ending the war. Hamas is largely rejecting Israel’s conditions for ending the war, which include the group’s laying down its arms and its leadership’s leaving the Palestinian coastal enclave.

In an effort to bridge the gap, Mr. Trump’s Middle East envoy, Steve Witkoff, backed a proposal approved by Israel for the immediate release of 11 living hostages and half the bodies in exchange for the release of Palestinians imprisoned in Israel and a roughly six-week extension of the temporary cease-fire. During that period, negotiations would take place toward a more permanent solution.

But Hamas has so far refused those terms, and Israel has made clear that it will not allow for a cease-fire without more hostage releases.

As with Gaza, the Trump administration appears unlikely to take Mr. Netanyahu to task for domestic moves.

After the Shin bet head is removed, prominent members of Mr. Netanyahu’s government have made clear, the next target is the attorney general, Gali Baharav-Miara, who has frequently clashed with the government. A cabinet vote late Tuesday to reinstate Itamar Ben-Gvir, an ultranationalist, as Israel’s minister of national security flouted a legal opinion by Ms. Baharav-Miara that he should not be reappointed to that role.

Some Israelis are wary of the Trump administration, which pushed Mr. Netanyahu to approve the first part of the Gaza cease-fire and hostage release deal but seems to have given him free rein since then.

“It looks great, really having President Trump on our side,” said Mitchell Barak, an Israeli pollster and analyst who worked as an aide to Mr. Netanyahu in the 1990s. But he called it a double-edged sword. If Mr. Trump changes his mind, he said, Mr. Netanyahu will have no choice and “will have to do what Trump says, whether he likes it or not.”

Louise Geva, 76, a protester from a village in central Israel, said she was thankful to Mr. Trump for pressuring Mr. Netanyahu into making the original agreement with Hamas that resulted in the release of more than two dozen hostages.

But Mr. Trump is “unpredictable,” she said, “and shouldn’t be the one we pin our hopes on.”

 

I think the only two solutions for the area in the long term are either the Palestinians or the Israelis leave - "ethnic cleansing" in your parlance - or they interbreed with one another to the point there's no distinction culturally or ethnically. Otherwise there will always be people on both sides who use the historical grievances to gain power and then the cycle of conflict begins anew. The Palestinians want their homeland back - ALL of their homeland. The Israelis are not keen on giving it back to them. I don't see intermarriage ever being a realistic solution given the strong identifications on both sides. 

What is completely baffling to me are the people in this country who supported Trump because Biden and the Democrats were too pro Israel. That made no sense whatsoever. Now Netanyahu has carte blanche. 

Posted
10 minutes ago, SL Xpress said:

I think the only two solutions for the area in the long term are either the Palestinians or the Israelis leave - "ethnic cleansing" in your parlance - or they interbreed with one another to the point there's no distinction culturally or ethnically. Otherwise there will always be people on both sides who use the historical grievances to gain power and then the cycle of conflict begins anew. The Palestinians want their homeland back - ALL of their homeland. The Israelis are not keen on giving it back to them. I don't see intermarriage ever being a realistic solution given the strong identifications on both sides. 

What is completely baffling to me are the people in this country who supported Trump because Biden and the Democrats were too pro Israel. That made no sense whatsoever. Now Netanyahu has carte blanche. 

I'm not going to argue the merits of your case other than to say ethnic cleansing is not my "parlance." It's exactly what you call making a group leave an area, either through force or coercion. Anyone who argues Palestinians should leave their homeland land, where they've been living for thousands of years, is in favor of ethnic cleansing.

Rex, statsman, Frank Drebin (fka Johnny Sack), and a number of other posters on this site have made their positions clear: they support kicking the Palestinians out of their homeland and are no better than the Germans who were silently satisfied during the Holocaust.

  • Hook 'Em 4
  • Like 1
Posted
1 hour ago, bolverk said:

I'm not going to argue the merits of your case other than to say ethnic cleansing is not my "parlance." It's exactly what you call making a group leave an area, either through force or coercion. Anyone who argues Palestinians should leave their homeland land, where they've been living for thousands of years, is in favor of ethnic cleansing.

Rex, statsman, Frank Drebin (fka Johnny Sack), and a number of other posters on this site have made their positions clear: they support kicking the Palestinians out of their homeland and are no better than the Germans who were silently satisfied during the Holocaust.

He is absolutely in favor of ethnic cleansing, he's already argued the point at length in the DT thread and demonstrated, frankly, a pretty startling fundamental misunderstanding of even the basic demographics of the region. If I'm being honest, I think earnestly arguing for a second Holocaust should get you permanently banned from this site, but sadly, the mods don't give a fuck. If that kind of rhetoric was aimed in the other direction, he would almost certainly eat an immediate permaban, and rightfully so. This time, he was careful to imply that he doesn't care which side gets ethnically cleansed, which contrasts with his previous posting in the DT thread, which amounted to "Man, I really don't like it, but the Israelis should just get rid of them all and get it over with *wink wink*".

People like him think of such things as if it's simply two opposing sides, hell bent on annihilation, sharply divided by racial/religious/whatever lines that are locked, nose-to-nose, in some existential battle straight out of a bad movie. Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work that way, and unserious people like him never consider such minor details like there being a significant Arab/Muslim population among the Israeli citizenry already. They completely ignore the fact that Israel would be completely unable to oppress the Palestinians to the almost unimaginable extent that they already do without our money, weapons, and (most importantly) permission.

In this incredibly dumb and short-sighted fantasy, removal of the Palestinian population would somehow instantly lead to peace, when the reality is:

  1. To accomplish this, you would have to remove and/or kill around 4 million people, and that's before you even get to the 20%~ of the Israeli population that is Arab/Muslim.
  2. Their populations are already comingled to such an extent that forcible separation such as the kind he desires is an unimaginably violent act that no country could recover from.
  3. Such an act would almost certainly lead to a massive, global conflict that the world is already teetering on elsewhere.

 

  • Like 3
Posted (edited)

Well said, @bolverk.

Sometimes, the next position of the wipeout Gaza crowd is that if we can't name a solution, then what else can possibly be done? The Gazan people become a Gordian Knot to be put to the sword.

I hate what Israel is doing. I hate even worse that we're complicit. Biden's soft shoe wasn't enough to change that. Trump in a cheerleading outfit is mortifying.

Edited by RomaVicta
  • Hook 'Em 1
  • Like 1
Posted
3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

All I will say is:

  1. Jewish students (or Jews in general) should not bullied, harassed, or subjected to violence because of the actions of Israel
  2. Protesting against the actions of Israel/making BDS demands are not antisemitism
  3. Israel does not do what it does because of Judaism and does not speak for the worldwide Jewish community
  4. The rhetoric around this issue isn't just a Trump problem, it was happening during the Biden admin, Trump is just making it worse with his blatant suppression of protected speech
  • Hook 'Em 2
  • Like 1
Posted
2 hours ago, bolverk said:

I'm not going to argue the merits of your case other than to say ethnic cleansing is not my "parlance." It's exactly what you call making a group leave an area, either through force or coercion. Anyone who argues Palestinians should leave their homeland land, where they've been living for thousands of years, is in favor of ethnic cleansing.

Rex, statsman, Frank Drebin (fka Johnny Sack), and a number of other posters on this site have made their positions clear: they support kicking the Palestinians out of their homeland and are no better than the Germans who were silently satisfied during the Holocaust.

I haven’t said that. I do think Hamas should be completely eradicated. The fact that they, and 54 hostages remain is not tenable and it’s come to the point where these facts are just plain ignored. 

  • Hook 'Em 1
Posted (edited)

Before responding to Denison, I'll await the expose, uncovering instances of Islamophobia and the targeting of Palestinians in and around college campuses across the country, such as the two cases in which Islamic students were physically assaulted in separate incidents, as well as a third one where meatheads who claimed to be IDF soldiers barged into and threatened attendees at a university-sanctioned meeting of a group of pro-Palestinian students (which occurred well before the protests), and finally where two TAs were fired by the university contrary to policy following that event:

On Oct. 12, students with the Palestine Solidarity Committee held an event on UT-Austin’s campus to discuss the history and context of the war. Roughly an hour into the event three men, who appeared to be unaffiliated with the university, disrupted the meeting and began intimidating students, calling them “fucking terrorists.”

The students, shaken by the event, called on the university to condemn the harassment. The university stayed silent, which students said felt particularly deafening after President Jay Hartzell sent a message to the UT-Austin community the next day announcing increased security for Jewish groups on campus.

Shortly after, a student approached Daghighi and Kennedy, who were working as teaching assistants in a course titled “Women and Madness,” asking if they could address the mental health needs of Palestinian and Arab students on campus. The two worked with course professor Lauren Gulbas on the letter and sent it to students on Nov. 16.

“The message fully aligned with the scope of the course and our responsibility as teaching assistants,” Kennedy said.

The letter addressed the Oct. 12 harassment incident and concluded by declaring that “we firmly support the rights and autonomy of Palestinians, Indigenous people, and displaced peoples across the globe.”

One day later, Gulbas informed Daghighi and Kennedy that a student in the class had filed a grievance with School of Social Work Dean Allan Cole regarding the statement. The three met, but before they had an opportunity to address the class, Cole dismissed Daghighi and Kennedy from their positions with pay. Cole said they would not be reinstated as teaching assistants the following semester.

Talk to me when you're equally committed to protecting all races, genders, religions, etc., from bigotry -- and not just individual cases but also (or especially) systematic and institutional ones. 

Edited by bolverk
  • Hook 'Em 2
Posted
4 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

He is absolutely in favor of ethnic cleansing, he's already argued the point at length in the DT thread and demonstrated, frankly, a pretty startling fundamental misunderstanding of even the basic demographics of the region. If I'm being honest, I think earnestly arguing for a second Holocaust should get you permanently banned from this site, but sadly, the mods don't give a fuck. If that kind of rhetoric was aimed in the other direction, he would almost certainly eat an immediate permaban, and rightfully so. This time, he was careful to imply that he doesn't care which side gets ethnically cleansed, which contrasts with his previous posting in the DT thread, which amounted to "Man, I really don't like it, but the Israelis should just get rid of them all and get it over with *wink wink*".

People like him think of such things as if it's simply two opposing sides, hell bent on annihilation, sharply divided by racial/religious/whatever lines that are locked, nose-to-nose, in some existential battle straight out of a bad movie. Unfortunately, the real world doesn't work that way, and unserious people like him never consider such minor details like there being a significant Arab/Muslim population among the Israeli citizenry already. They completely ignore the fact that Israel would be completely unable to oppress the Palestinians to the almost unimaginable extent that they already do without our money, weapons, and (most importantly) permission.

In this incredibly dumb and short-sighted fantasy, removal of the Palestinian population would somehow instantly lead to peace, when the reality is:

  1. To accomplish this, you would have to remove and/or kill around 4 million people, and that's before you even get to the 20%~ of the Israeli population that is Arab/Muslim.
  2. Their populations are already comingled to such an extent that forcible separation such as the kind he desires is an unimaginably violent act that no country could recover from.
  3. Such an act would almost certainly lead to a massive, global conflict that the world is already teetering on elsewhere.

 

 

I'm saying there are three options. 

Option 1: Fighting between the two groups until the end of time. Broken up by periods of peace, but only until one group or the other has someone come to power galvanized by the identification of the other group as an existential enemy. I do not believe the Palestinians have ever had anyone in leadership who truly wants to ensure the permanent existence of the Israeli state, but even if someone like that were to come into power, I do not believe they would last long. Maybe for the length of their lifetime, at most. I don't believe Hamas is going to willingly give up power in the Gaza strip. If Hamas isn't the titular power, the person who is in charge is going to have a difficult time running things if they're seen as toadies for Israel. October 7 will be celebrated as a great victory for the Palestinian people, regardless of the consequences suffered. 

I also don't believe the preponderance of Israeli leadership has ever seriously entertained the existence of a two party state. I do believe plenty of Israelis want it, but it's my opinion they are wishing for a pipe dream. For the most part Israeli leadership has seen the Palestinians as an existential threat to a Jewish homeland. Which means a lot of repression, insufferable living conditions, and under the worst conditions, rollbacks of the territory possessed.

I suppose this could go on for a very long time. We're going on 80 years now. As long as they don't kill each other off, especially with a weapon of mass destruction, I suppose it could go on for another 800. 

Option 2: Arabs and Jews intermarry and have lots of babies together, blending the cultural identity together to the point of indistinction. Kind of like what happened to the Northern Kingdom in Biblical times after Assyria conquered them.  

I consider this option farcical. I put it out there mostly to show how intractable the problem is. As long as the possibility of widespread intermarriage/interbreeding remains nonexistent, the potential of violent solutions will always exist.

Option 3: One group or the other is forced to leave or is decimated. Historically this is how these kinds of conflicts are resolved. It is only in modern times where we have this quixotic ideal that two groups that hate each other and consider the other group their historical enemy living on land that is rightfully their's can somehow live next to each other in peace. The only way that happens is when one group is forced into a marginal minority status, with its own set of issues.

____________________________________________________________

1) Well, not all of them have to be removed. You wouldn't have to remove all the Israelis from Israel. If you remove 90% of them or so and the Palestinians were in power then the remaining Israelis would be relatively immaterial. No one killed all the indigenous people in the western hemisphere, Australia, or New Zealand. But they've been marginalized to where it doesn't matter. Shoot, plenty of indigenous people were removed from their lands before European colonization occurred. 

2) I would argue India/Pakistan recovered from it. Not ideally, certainly, but that was a traumatic migration which separated peoples who had lived alongside one another for centuries. 

It's a horrible solution. There's never been a case of a people migrating from their land because they couldn't live there any more that wasn't tragic in one sense or another. Most of the time it leads to the disappearance of their culture and way of life. But just because it's horrible doesn't mean it's unthinkable. It's happened throughout human history. I'd argue that IS human history. Certainly the middle east is as replete with examples as anywhere on the face of the earth, mostly because that's where it all started. 

3) Could be. We're on the darkest of timelines in this country, that's for sure. I don't think I fear the US going to war externally as much as I fear the decimation of the judiciary, control over the media, the military, and domestic security, and the loss of the ability to have peaceful transfers of power. But maybe you're right.

Posted

The map of nations that recognize the State of Palestine is getting greener. I don't think most Americans realize we're among the global outliers.

Policies of some of the remaining major countries (from Wiki):

  • FRANCE: In October 2014, France's foreign minister said France would recognize a Palestinian state even if peace talks with Israel fails.[250] On 2 December 2014 the French National Assembly approved a non-binding motion calling on the government to recognise Palestine.[251] In 2024, French President Emmanuel Macron said "I am completely ready to recognize a Palestinian state, but ... I believe that this recognition must come at a useful time".[252]
  • GERMANY: In April 2011, Chancellor Angela Merkel labelled the Palestinian bid for recognition a "unilateral step",[253] and stated unequivocally that Germany will not recognize a Palestinian state without its prior acceptance by Israel. "Unilateral recognitions therefore definitely do not contribute to achieving this aim ... This is our stance now and it will be our stance in September. There needs to be mutual recognition, otherwise it is not a two-state solution".[254] She also reaffirmed her government's commitment to see an agreement reached as soon as possible. "We want a two-state solution. We want to recognize a Palestinian state. Let us ensure that negotiations begin. It is urgent".[255]
  • JAPAN: Japan voted favorably for the United Nations General Assembly resolution to accord Palestine Non-member Observer State status in the United Nations in November 2012, and since then, refers to the country as "Palestine".[275] In August 2024, a Japanese official stated that the country was considering recognition.[276]
  • UK: In October 2014, the UK House of Commons passed a symbolic non-binding Motion by a vote of 274 in favour to 12 against which called on the Government to recognize Palestine.[340][341] Also in October 2014, the devolved government of Scotland called for recognition of Palestine as an independent state and for the UK to open an Embassy.[342] Shortly before the UK general election in June 2024, Labour Party leader Keir Starmer stated that recognition of Palestine could jeopardise the UK's relationship with the U.S.[343]

undefined 

  • Like 1
Posted

Erosion of checks and balances. Consoldiation of power in the Executive. Corruption.

Sounds familiar.

Netanyahu Expected to Fire Shin Bet Chief Despite Protests
Israelis have been demonstrating against the move, which many see as part of an effort to reduce checks on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing government.

A big crowd of people, some holding Israeli flags.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel was expected on Thursday to formally fire the head of the Shin Bet domestic intelligence agency, despite growing street protests and scuffles over the move that have further roiled a deeply divided country still at war.

The Israeli cabinet was set to convene for a nighttime vote on the dismissal of the Shin Bet chief, Ronen Bar, just days after Mr. Netanyahu announced his intention to oust him, citing a lack of personal trust between them.

It comes after Israel’s military resumed a deadly campaign in Gaza that has raised concern among many Israelis about the fates of hostages still held in the enclave. Sirens warning of incoming rocket fire from Gaza sent Israelis in the Tel Aviv area running for cover on Thursday for the first time in months.

The Shin Bet is deeply involved in Israel’s war against Hamas in Gaza, providing intelligence and targets. By law, the agency is also tasked with protecting Israeli democracy.

The discord between Mr. Netanyahu and Mr. Bar goes to the heart of a broader battle playing out over the nature and future of Israel’s democracy and the rule of law. Critics of Mr. Netanyahu’s ruling coalition, the most right-wing and religiously conservative in Israel’s history, accuse it of working to reduce the authority of independent state watchdogs and to remove checks and balances on the powers of the government, which holds a narrow majority in Parliament.

The firing of Mr. Bar on grounds of personal trust has also raised public concerns that future appointments may be based primarily on loyalty to the prime minister.

Thousands protested in Jerusalem on Wednesday in anticipation of the move, and more protests took place on Thursday. By lunchtime, a long column of academics had marched in stormy weather from a campus of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem toward one of Mr. Netanyahu’s private residences, beating on drums, chanting, “Democracy!” and scuffling with police officers after trying to break through a barricade.

Some prominent opposition figures joined the demonstrators. Video footage from the scene showed police officers aggressively pushing protesters, including Yair Golan, a former deputy chief of the military and now the leader of the center-left Democrats party, who ended up on the ground. The police used a water cannon and sprayed protesters with a foul-smelling liquid in an effort to disperse them.

The new protests recall weekly demonstrations in 2023 against attempts to overhaul the judiciary to reduce its power as a check on the government, with business leaders at one point joining labor unions to hold a national strike. Those protests came to an abrupt halt with the Hamas-led attack on southern Israel that ignited the war on Oct. 7, 2023, though the broad sense of national solidarity that prevailed then is now fraying.

Mr. Netanyahu and his allies have made accusations of overreach against the judiciary and other independent branches, saying that they have hampered the government’s freedom to make decisions and to represent the will of voters.

Mr. Netanyahu has been under police investigation and is on trial on charges of corruption, which he denies. He has repeatedly accused a liberal “deep state” of conducting a witch hunt against him and his family.

For months, Mr. Bar had angered Mr. Netanyahu by investigating officials in the prime minister’s office over claims that they had leaked secret documents to the media and also worked for people connected to Qatar, an Arab state close to Hamas. The investigation, called “Qatargate” in the local news media, is continuing in secrecy under a sweeping gag order.

Mr. Netanyahu has denied wrongdoing and his office has dismissed the episode as “fake news.” The Qatari government did not respond to requests for comment.

Mr. Bar, who has led the Shin Bet since 2021, issued a rare public statement last week, after Mr. Netanyahu’s announcement, saying that the expectation of “personal trust” was in opposition to the public interest.

“It’s a fundamentally flawed expectation that is in contravention with the Shin Bet law and statesmanship,” Mr. Bar said.

Mr. Bar and the Shin Bet have taken responsibility for their part in the intelligence failure that led to the Hamas-led attack, which resulted in the deadliest single day for Israelis since the foundation of their state in 1948.

But in a summary of the agency’s internal probe into its conduct issued earlier this month, the Shin Bet also pointed to years of lenient government policy toward Hamas and Gaza as a major contributing factor, likely angering Mr. Netanyahu.

Appearing emboldened domestically, as well as in Gaza, by the staunch support of the U.S. administration, Mr. Netanyahu made common cause with President Trump in a blunt social media post late Wednesday.

“In America and in Israel, when a strong right wing leader wins an election, the leftist Deep State weaponizes the justice system to thwart the people’s will,” he wrote. “They won’t win in either place! We stand strong together.”

The billionaire Elon Musk, a close ally of Mr. Trump, replied with a red “100” emoji, suggesting that he agreed with Mr. Netanyahu.

Many Israelis view the country’s democracy as increasingly fragile. Israel has no formal written constitution, only one legislative chamber and a president whose role is mostly ceremonial and symbolic.

By taking the vote straight to the government on Thursday, Mr. Netanyahu was also defying a legal opinion of the attorney general, Gali Baharav-Miara, who advised that the dismissal of Mr. Bar must first be approved by an advisory committee that oversees senior appointments.

Ms. Baharav-Miara, who was appointed by the previous government, has frequently clashed with the current one. Prominent members of Mr. Netanyahu’s cabinet have said that after Mr. Bar’s removal, the attorney general will be the next.

The families of hostages still held in Gaza, up to 24 of whom are believed to be alive, have expressed outrage and alarm over what they view as Mr. Netanyahu’s misguided priorities, as well as the collapse of a temporary cease-fire and the renewed military campaign.

“First, return the hostages. Everything else comes after!” the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, a grass-roots organization that advocates on behalf of captives and their relatives, said in a statement on Thursday. The forum described the hostages as being “in danger of death and disappearance in the Hamas tunnels in Gaza.”

Posted

Same corruption playbook. 

In just this week in Washington, Mr. Trump called for the impeachment of a federal judge who was seeking basic information about his mass deportation efforts, fired two Democratic commissioners of an independent trade commission and was rebuked by a judge who said his administration’s gutting of the agency in charge of foreign aid most likely violated the Constitution.

This week in Jerusalem, Mr. Netanyahu’s cabinet fired Ronen Bar, the head of Shin Bet, Israel’s equivalent of the F.B.I., after the agency started investigations into the prime minister’s aides. Among other claims, the aides are accused of mishandling classified information and leaking a document to a foreign newspaper. Mr. Netanyahu’s office has strongly denied the allegations.

*****

Like Mr. Trump, Mr. Netanyahu is seeking to rein in domestic watchdogs and judicial authorities that, like in the United States, have pursued investigations against him or his allies.

Like Mr. Trump, the Israeli prime minister has faced criminal charges that he says are false claims fomented by left-leaning and unelected bureaucrats. In Mr. Netanyahu’s case, he is standing trial in a yearslong corruption case that requires him to appear in court several times a month.

*****

Alon Pinkas, a political commentator and Israel’s former consul-general in New York, said it was doubtful Mr. Netanyahu would have moved against the Shin Bet chief had Mr. Trump not been president. The two leaders were kindred spirits politically, he said, and had “both adopted an identical language that would make George Orwell cringe with envy.”

Mr. Trump and Mr. Netanyahu also regularly use this language to discredit the news media, another institution they often view with contempt. Israel’s national broadcaster, Kan, reported this week that it was during a meeting with Mr. Trump in Washington last month when Mr. Netanyahu was inspired to fire Mr. Bar.

Asked to comment on that report, Mr. Netanyahu’s spokesman, Omer Dostri, responded with a terse text message: “fake news.”

 

image.thumb.png.70c8b42423f7947fd68e23fdc4cf5a5f.png
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/21/us/politics/trump-netanyahu-israel-political-strategy.html

Quote

 

If it wasn’t obvious that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel believes he has an ally in his battle against the country’s attorney general, its judges and even the head of its domestic security service, he made it clear on Wednesday evening.

“In America and in Israel, when a strong right wing leader wins an election, the leftist Deep State weaponizes the justice system to thwart the people’s will,” he wrote in a social media post. “They won’t win in either place! We stand strong together.”

The defiant, Trumpian blast was the latest evidence that Mr. Netanyahu and President Trump are running the same playbook to achieve strikingly similar goals: to neuter the judiciary, dismantle a system of oversight that puts a check on their authority and discredit national security professionals they see as arrayed against them.

These moves come as Mr. Trump has aligned his Middle East policy squarely to benefit Mr. Netanyahu, including giving the Israeli prime minister freedom to renew the war in Gaza and launching U.S. airstrikes against the Houthis in Yemen, a group that is an avowed enemy of Israel.

In just this week in Washington, Mr. Trump called for the impeachment of a federal judge who was seeking basic information about his mass deportation efforts, fired two Democratic commissioners of an independent trade commission and was rebuked by a judge who said his administration’s gutting of the agency in charge of foreign aid most likely violated the Constitution.

This week in Jerusalem, Mr. Netanyahu’s cabinet fired Ronen Bar, the head of Shin Bet, Israel’s equivalent of the F.B.I., after the agency started investigations into the prime minister’s aides. Among other claims, the aides are accused of mishandling classified information and leaking a document to a foreign newspaper. Mr. Netanyahu’s office has strongly denied the allegations.

Mr. Netanyahu’s move against the Shin Bet chief came weeks after his administration announced plans to fire the attorney general, Gali Baharav-Miara, an apolitical judicial official appointed by the previous government who has frustrated Mr. Netanyahu by blocking some of his decisions on legal grounds.

Like Mr. Trump, Mr. Netanyahu is seeking to rein in domestic watchdogs and judicial authorities that, like in the United States, have pursued investigations against him or his allies.

Like Mr. Trump, the Israeli prime minister has faced criminal charges that he says are false claims fomented by left-leaning and unelected bureaucrats. In Mr. Netanyahu’s case, he is standing trial in a yearslong corruption case that requires him to appear in court several times a month.

“Trump’s own illiberalism has given Netanyahu an unprecedented opportunity to impose his own on Israel,” said Aaron David Miller, a Middle East expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “Trump’s popularity in Israel and the Vulcan mind meld between Trump and Netanyahu on undermining the independence of the courts, and fighting the ‘woke left’ protects and energizes Netanyahu.”

Mr. Miller said Mr. Netanyahu had long taken cues from other authoritarian leaders, like Prime Minister Viktor Orban of Hungary. And Mr. Netanyahu’s battle against what he calls the “deep state” predates Mr. Trump’s presidency.

He was first questioned by the police about the corruption charges in early 2017, weeks before Mr. Trump took office for his first term. When Mr. Netanyahu’s trial began in 2020, he stood on the steps of the court in Jerusalem, accusing the prosecution, the police and the media establishment of a joint attempt “to thwart the will of the people.” He is accused of granting regulatory favors to businessmen and media moguls in exchange for gifts and favorable news coverage, which he denies.

The prime minister’s formal attempts to undermine judicial power began in 2022, when his coalition government introduced legislation intended to limit the power of the Supreme Court and give the government more control over the appointment of its judges. After mass protests, the government suspended most of these moves for more than a year.

But Mr. Netanyahu appears galvanized after Mr. Trump’s election in November. Since then, his government revived the overhaul of the judicial appointments process and is pushing the bill through Parliament.

One Israeli official briefed on Mr. Netanyahu’s thinking said that Mr. Trump’s election had given the prime minister greater confidence to take provocative steps at home and in the war in Gaza, which escalated this week after the collapse of a cease-fire deal that had been brokered earlier this year. The official spoke on the condition of anonymity.

For his part, Mr. Trump has found common cause with other illiberal leaders like Mr. Orban, Prime Minister Narendra Modi of India and President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia. Mr. Trump said this month that Mr. Putin “went through a hell of a lot with me,” referring to the F.B.I’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election and contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian operatives.

It was in the midst of that investigation when Mr. Trump fired James B. Comey, the F.B.I director who had refused to publicly clear him of any ties to Russia. Mr. Comey had also refused to give in to Mr. Trump’s pressure to drop an F.B.I. investigation into Michael T. Flynn, the former White House national security adviser.

Eight years later, Mr. Netanyahu persuaded his cabinet to fire Mr. Bar, despite large street protests in Jerusalem this week denouncing his threats to remove the Shin Bet chief. On Friday, Israel’s Supreme Court issued an injunction freezing Mr. Bar’s dismissal until the justices could hear petitions that had been filed against it.

Alon Pinkas, a political commentator and Israel’s former consul-general in New York, said it was doubtful Mr. Netanyahu would have moved against the Shin Bet chief had Mr. Trump not been president. The two leaders were kindred spirits politically, he said, and had “both adopted an identical language that would make George Orwell cringe with envy.”

Mr. Trump and Mr. Netanyahu also regularly use this language to discredit the news media, another institution they often view with contempt. Israel’s national broadcaster, Kan, reported this week that it was during a meeting with Mr. Trump in Washington last month when Mr. Netanyahu was inspired to fire Mr. Bar.

Asked to comment on that report, Mr. Netanyahu’s spokesman, Omer Dostri, responded with a terse text message: “fake news.”

 

 

Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, mchookem said:

didn't that film just win an Oscar?? seems like that should make this a big story...

The only way it will make the news in American media is to present whatever lie the IDF inevitably tells about it. This is just exhibit #infinity of Israel disappearing/killing journalists they have a problem with. It basically never gets reported on unless it's something like the AP building getting bombed.

Palestinian Director of 'No Other Land' Attacked by Settler Mob, Arrested by Soldiers, Israeli Co-director Says - Israel News - Haaretz.com

e: I know he's not technically a journalist but in this context it's effectively the same thing

Edited by Brian Fantana
Posted
On 3/19/2025 at 4:32 PM, David Dennison said:

I'll just leave this here.

 

Anyone who wants to focus on anti-semitism on college campuses in 2025 is knowingly helping nazis.

Posted (edited)

Oscar-winning Palestinian director Hamdan Ballal released from detention | AP News

The IDF kidnapped and tortured this dude for days for the crime of filming a documentary that showed the realities of life as a Palestinian in occupied Palestine.

e: Just so those of you who refuse to recognize Israel's crimes understand why Israel kills so many journalists, why independent journalists are so heavily restricted from entering Gaza/West Bank, and why you see almost no Western journalists covering every day life of Palestinians.

They can't afford the rest of the world recognizing the ongoing apartheid and genocide, though their efforts have been slowly failing over the last few years.

Edited by Brian Fantana
  • Like 2
Posted
On 3/19/2025 at 9:35 PM, SL Xpress said:

 

I'm saying there are three options. 

Option 1: Fighting between the two groups until the end of time. Broken up by periods of peace, but only until one group or the other has someone come to power galvanized by the identification of the other group as an existential enemy. I do not believe the Palestinians have ever had anyone in leadership who truly wants to ensure the permanent existence of the Israeli state, but even if someone like that were to come into power, I do not believe they would last long. Maybe for the length of their lifetime, at most. I don't believe Hamas is going to willingly give up power in the Gaza strip. If Hamas isn't the titular power, the person who is in charge is going to have a difficult time running things if they're seen as toadies for Israel. October 7 will be celebrated as a great victory for the Palestinian people, regardless of the consequences suffered. 

I also don't believe the preponderance of Israeli leadership has ever seriously entertained the existence of a two party state. I do believe plenty of Israelis want it, but it's my opinion they are wishing for a pipe dream. For the most part Israeli leadership has seen the Palestinians as an existential threat to a Jewish homeland. Which means a lot of repression, insufferable living conditions, and under the worst conditions, rollbacks of the territory possessed.

I suppose this could go on for a very long time. We're going on 80 years now. As long as they don't kill each other off, especially with a weapon of mass destruction, I suppose it could go on for another 800. 

Option 2: Arabs and Jews intermarry and have lots of babies together, blending the cultural identity together to the point of indistinction. Kind of like what happened to the Northern Kingdom in Biblical times after Assyria conquered them.  

I consider this option farcical. I put it out there mostly to show how intractable the problem is. As long as the possibility of widespread intermarriage/interbreeding remains nonexistent, the potential of violent solutions will always exist.

Option 3: One group or the other is forced to leave or is decimated. Historically this is how these kinds of conflicts are resolved. It is only in modern times where we have this quixotic ideal that two groups that hate each other and consider the other group their historical enemy living on land that is rightfully their's can somehow live next to each other in peace. The only way that happens is when one group is forced into a marginal minority status, with its own set of issues.

____________________________________________________________

1) Well, not all of them have to be removed. You wouldn't have to remove all the Israelis from Israel. If you remove 90% of them or so and the Palestinians were in power then the remaining Israelis would be relatively immaterial. No one killed all the indigenous people in the western hemisphere, Australia, or New Zealand. But they've been marginalized to where it doesn't matter. Shoot, plenty of indigenous people were removed from their lands before European colonization occurred. 

2) I would argue India/Pakistan recovered from it. Not ideally, certainly, but that was a traumatic migration which separated peoples who had lived alongside one another for centuries. 

It's a horrible solution. There's never been a case of a people migrating from their land because they couldn't live there any more that wasn't tragic in one sense or another. Most of the time it leads to the disappearance of their culture and way of life. But just because it's horrible doesn't mean it's unthinkable. It's happened throughout human history. I'd argue that IS human history. Certainly the middle east is as replete with examples as anywhere on the face of the earth, mostly because that's where it all started. 

3) Could be. We're on the darkest of timelines in this country, that's for sure. I don't think I fear the US going to war externally as much as I fear the decimation of the judiciary, control over the media, the military, and domestic security, and the loss of the ability to have peaceful transfers of power. But maybe you're right.

Option 4 - get serious and send the Kushman back over there to sort things out

New Book Details Kushner's Ridiculous Middle East Peace Plan



×
×
  • Create New...