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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27375

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2 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

We’ve been over this twice now. 

I know it sounds crazy but, if I were a sovereign state, and in conflict with a hostile neighboring state, I would make any negotiation with that state include an acknowledgment of my legitimacy by that state as a prerequisite to opening negotiations. I know you think ceding territory won in battle makes more sense as an opening gambit. I guess we can agree to disagree 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28700

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

So fozz is your opinion Israel does not have a right to exist?

Is it your belief that the God of Abraham actually exists and promised the land they call Israel to the Jews? Unless you believe that fairy tale, there is no reason for there to be such a thing as a Jewish state, especially not on Arab land.

There's no reason to have a Christian state either, or an Islamic state, or a Hindu state, etc. There should be a wall separating church and state. Granting citizenship to anyone in the world who practices your religion, but not to people who have lived within your borders for centuries just because they practice a different religion, is immoral. 

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Biff Tannen

Biff Tannen 45477

Posted
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21 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is it your belief that the God of Abraham actually exists and promised the land they call Israel to the Jews? Unless you believe that fairy tale, there is no reason for there to be such a thing as a Jewish state, especially not on Arab land.

There's no reason to have a Christian state either, or an Islamic state, or a Hindu state, etc. There should be a wall separating church and state. Granting citizenship to anyone in the world who practices your religion, but not to people who have lived within your borders for centuries just because they practice a different religion, is immoral. 

This here.

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27375

Posted
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24 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is it your belief that the God of Abraham actually exists and promised the land they call Israel to the Jews? Unless you believe that fairy tale, there is no reason for there to be such a thing as a Jewish state, especially not on Arab land.

There's no reason to have a Christian state either, or an Islamic state, or a Hindu state, etc. There should be a wall separating church and state. Granting citizenship to anyone in the world who practices your religion, but not to people who have lived within your borders for centuries just because they practice a different religion, is immoral. 

I don’t believe they have a divine right to the land. The victors of ww2 gave them the land and they have had the military might to keep it. That is the reality that Hamas cannot accept. I completely agree with your second paragraph 

 

the bolded sentence is pretty pretty ironic 

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TxEx99

TxEx99 31

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27 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is it your belief that the God of Abraham actually exists and promised the land they call Israel to the Jews? Unless you believe that fairy tale, there is no reason for there to be such a thing as a Jewish state, especially not on Arab land.

There's no reason to have a Christian state either, or an Islamic state, or a Hindu state, etc. There should be a wall separating church and state. Granting citizenship to anyone in the world who practices your religion, but not to people who have lived within your borders for centuries just because they practice a different religion, is immoral. 

I'm sorry are you talking about Israel or Saudi Arabia?  

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28700

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24 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

I don’t believe they have a divine right to the land. The victors of ww2 gave them the land and they have had the military might to keep it. That is the reality that Hamas cannot accept. I completely agree with your second paragraph 

 

the bolded sentence is pretty pretty ironic 

The victors of WWII? Google the Balfour Declaration.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

Posted
Posted
7 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

I know it sounds crazy but, if I were a sovereign state, and in conflict with a hostile neighboring state, I would make any negotiation with that state include an acknowledgment of my legitimacy by that state as a prerequisite to opening negotiations. I know you think ceding territory won in battle makes more sense as an opening gambit. I guess we can agree to disagree 

all Arab states accepted Israel long time ago

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, David Dennison said:

They could always stop occupying Palestinian territories.

And The Palestinians could remove the whole we're going push Israel into the Med thingy.  They won't so Israel Ain't giving up any occupation nor should they.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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57 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And The Palestinians could remove the whole we're going push Israel into the Med thingy.  They won't so Israel Ain't giving up any occupation nor should they.

as if anyone has a realistic chance of destroying Israel. This is a lame excuse for Israel to continue to build settlements then whine about how the other side, who is completely powerless, is forcing the issue. 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, Orca of Peace said:

same here when South Africa was a thing of the 1980s.. the cultured civilized whites against the subhuman uneducated savage Negras. 

Yeah, that's the same.  I have been to Israel.  Multiple times.  Arabs in Israel have the exact same rights as Jews.

And of course when we went to Hebron, the Muslims threw rocks at us for no reason.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Yeah, that's the same.  I have been to Israel.  Multiple times.  Arabs in Israel have the exact same rights as Jews.

And of course when we went to Hebron, the Muslims threw rocks at us for no reason.

strange how the focus is on the Israeli Arabs, 1.5 million , and never on the actual Palestinians of the WB 2.0 million. 

Throwing rocks at you is understandable, since you are their enemy. 

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Johnny Sack

Johnny Sack 8397

Posted
Posted

From what I’ve gathered on the Twitterverse this week is a lot of people are believing a lie. People out there believe that Britain removed their military from Mandatory Palestine that a bunch of Jews showed up and kicked the Palestians out of their homes.

The truth of the matter is there were about 700k Jews in Mandatory Palestine in 1948 with a total population of roughly 2 million. The Israelites agreed to the UN’s two party solution that divided the country and gave each ethnic group control of the areas they dominated in numbers while leaving Jerusalem neutral. Palestians and the Arab league refused this and started attacking before Britain had completely removed their troops from the land. This attack included blockading Jerusalem affectively making it an “open air prison” for the Jewish population. Every Palestian driven from their home in 1948-1949 was a result of Arab aggression and the Jewish population in Israel defending themselves.

They thought since it was 5 on 1 they could end it immediately.  Israel beat them in a war where Arabs were the aggressor.  Tough shit.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

Posted
Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Is it your belief that the God of Abraham actually exists and promised the land they call Israel to the Jews? Unless you believe that fairy tale, there is no reason for there to be such a thing as a Jewish state, especially not on Arab land.

There's no reason to have a Christian state either, or an Islamic state, or a Hindu state, etc. There should be a wall separating church and state. Granting citizenship to anyone in the world who practices your religion, but not to people who have lived within your borders for centuries just because they practice a different religion, is immoral. 

There are some serious internal contradictions and double standards in this post.  Set aside the West Bank for the moment, since you are talking about Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.   What exactly makes the land within Israel proper "Arab land"? 

75% of Israel's Jewish population was born on the land.  The land is theirs by birth. How many global Palestinians are age 70+ and were born where Israel proper stands?   Why exactly aren't the rest all citizens of the countries in which they were born, like how the Palestinians born here are American citizens?   Why aren't West Bank Palestinians all citizens of Jordan, which held that territory before Israel took it?   

I don't support a number of things Israel is doing right now, just as I'm a proud American who doesn't support most of what the Trump administration is doing.   I support a Palestinian state that includes most of the West Bank.  But you've fallen for propaganda if you think this is about God's promise to the Jews versus the poor displaced natives.  It's not.  It's about the Arab nations using the Palestinians as political pawns, and you're playing right into their game. 

Edited by Mojo Hand
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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27375

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Orca of Peace said:

all Arab states accepted Israel long time ago

Do you want to explain how the quotes in my previous posts from the current and most recent past leader of Hamas demonstrate acceptance of Israel, or the AJ link by fozz that explicitly states Hamas “does not recognize state of Israel?”

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

From what I’ve gathered on the Twitterverse this week is a lot of people are believing a lie. People out there believe that Britain removed their military from Mandatory Palestine that a bunch of Jews showed up and kicked the Palestians out of their homes.

The truth of the matter is there were about 700k Jews in Mandatory Palestine in 1948 with a total population of roughly 2 million. The Israelites agreed to the UN’s two party solution that divided the country and gave each ethnic group control of the areas they dominated in numbers while leaving Jerusalem neutral. Palestians and the Arab league refused this and started attacking before Britain had completely removed their troops from the land. This attack included blockading Jerusalem affectively making it an “open air prison” for the Jewish population. Every Palestian driven from their home in 1948-1949 was a result of Arab aggression and the Jewish population in Israel defending themselves.

They thought since it was 5 on 1 they could end it immediately.  Israel beat them in a war where Arabs were the aggressor.  Tough shit.

Jews were killing Arab villagers long before 1948.  And "israelites"? the Jewish population was imposed on them by western powers so they were right to fight them. 

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

Do you want to explain how the quotes in my previous posts from the current and most recent past leader of Hamas demonstrate acceptance of Israel, or the AJ link by fozz that explicitly states Hamas “does not recognize state of Israel?”

Hamas is not an Arab state.

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Sawbonz said:

You’re right only Gaza. And they have zero influence on the rest of the country right?

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/03/palestinian-government-meets-in-gaza-for-first-time-in-three-years

even in Gaza they have lost control of the border crossings to the Palestinan Authority .  You don't seem to know much, so i won't engage with you any longer. 

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

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Well, if you're telling Jews to go home to where they already are, I suppose there's nothing anti-semitic about that.  But then it becomes a pointless statement. 

If you're simply arguing that Israel should withdraw from the West Bank, that's fine.  I favor a unilateral withdrawal myself.   But let's not pretend that wouldn't be an extraordinary thing for a country to do while getting nothing in return.  I can't fault Israel for demanding terms for peace in exchange, like any other country would do. 

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Orca of Peace

Orca of Peace 109

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Posted

regardless of a political deal or not, there is no justification for the brutal military dictatorship and apartheid system enabled by the settlements -- which makes a 2 state solution impossible. You know the Jews are burying their dead in the West Bank? They are never leaving. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28700

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Posted
1 hour ago, Mojo Hand said:

There are some serious internal contradictions and double standards in this post.  Set aside the West Bank for the moment, since you are talking about Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state.   What exactly makes the land within Israel proper "Arab land"? 

75% of Israel's Jewish population was born on the land.  The land is theirs by birth. How many global Palestinians are age 70+ and were born where Israel proper stands?   Why exactly aren't the rest all citizens of the countries in which they were born, like how the Palestinians born here are American citizens?   Why aren't West Bank Palestinians all citizens of Jordan, which held that territory before Israel took it?   

I don't support a number of things Israel is doing right now, just as I'm a proud American who doesn't support most of what the Trump administration is doing.   I support a Palestinian state that includes most of the West Bank.  But you've fallen for propaganda if you think this is about God's promise to the Jews versus the poor displaced natives.  It's not.  It's about the Arab nations using the Palestinians as political pawns, and you're playing right into their game. 

The rationale for giving the Jews their own state where it currently resides is based on the scriptural tale that the God of Abraham promised them that land in his covenant with Moses. You'd agree with that, right?

That land had been majority Arab for well over 1,000 years prior to the Balfour Declaration. The Jews that lived there during that time were more like their Arab neighbors than the European diaspora that came flooding in to create the Jewish state. It wasn't just a religious clash, it was also a cultural clash. Promises made to the Palestinian Arabs by the British were broken. 

If you were a Palestinian Arab 70 years ago, one not lucky enough to be granted citizenship (but not citizenship fully equal to your Jewish neighbors), you watched infidels come and push you off your land and force you into a life of subjugation. You have been deprived of any political power. Freedom and equality for you and your children is NOT an option. You will take your subjugation and like it.

If your Arab family lived there for centuries and you're now living under apartheid, you don't give a shit that the Jewish grandson of someone from Ukraine who's now living in your old house was actually born in the same hospital you were. A hospital that won't see you anymore. That statistic about 75% of Israeli Jews being born there is an insult to anyone who has lived there for dozens of generations. Or ten. Or six. How does that make them superior? 

Of course those people are going to react with violence. They have no alternative. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that that was the inevitable outcome of creating a Jewish state on Arab land. Again, it was Arab land because that's who lived there for centuries before Western (aka Christian) powers gave it to the Jews. That they once lived there 2,000 years ago doesn't make it their land. The only way you can argue that it does is to subscribe to religious myth which, not coincidentally, was authored by the very people making the claim on said land. (Funny how that works, isn't it?)

I don't care about the politics and as an American I'm really only exposed to Israeli propaganda. But I know my history. I also believe in the Constitution and the First Amendment. My solution, which I know will never happen, would be for everyone in Israel, including Gaza and the West Bank, to all be citizens of the same state with equal rights for all. But then it wouldn't be a Jewish state. So fucking what? It would be a true Western style democracy.

(Yes, I realize that we're still struggling to live up to our own ideals. I wish we would do a better job of setting a good example for the rest of the world but the religious nuts keep fucking things up over here too.)

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4039

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Sawbonz said:

So fozz is your opinion Israel does not have a right to exist?

Quote

They haven’t. Why should they?

Because that's what they're legally entitled to, and it's rather shocking that you don't see the very brazen contradiction between those two sentences. That's how their "right to exist" is defined under international law, which is what created their country in the first place. People who hold views like yours like to yammer about the "antiquity" and "irrelevance" of the UN, and they do so very selectively. They bray like sanctimonious asses whenever AI or HRW condemns Hamas for using indiscriminate weaponry, but when it comes to GA and SC resolutions either condemning Israeli human rights violations or the issue of Palestinian self-determination, suddenly "they're irrelevant! We should get out!" It's typical postmodernist spinelessness and hypocrisy: "all truth is relative...except for this one!!!"

Israel certainly has the right to exist within the borders of 1967 (well it's actually the right of self-determination, but that's semantics), including the Western portion of Jerusalem and there can also be, to quote UNSC 242, "minor and mutual adjustments" along the Jordanian border in the southeast (it was irregular at the time of the drafting of the map). And you should notice, I take that very seriously. I stand firmly against BDS' position that "all 7 million Palestinian refugees should be allowed to return to Israel" because doing so would shatter the Jewish/Hebrew/Israeli/etc demography of the country. I acknowledge that, and I therefore reject it and I prefer the line "just settlement of the refugee question" as a guide in future negotiations. In other words, I'm of the position that the refugees should be compensated monetarily, but that's where it should stop.

Since you scoff at the borders of 1967, you are effectively saying "Palestine has no right to exist." Well if that's your position, fine, but just know that you have no right whatsoever to demand that anyone respects Israel's right to exist. When you talk about Israel beyond its 1967 borders, you're not talking about their rights and you're not talking about their legal entitlements. You're just talking about what they want, and that's a totally separate question. Palestine's right to exist is defined by the very same international law as the whole of the West Bank, the whole of Gaza, and the whole of East Jerusalem. 

That bolded sentence I just typed is completely, 100% uncontroversial. Why? Because in the International Court of Justice's 2004 advisory opinion, they unanimously agreed on that very fact. The issue at hand was the legality of the so-called "separation wall," and the court repeatedly noted its illegality in the portions that lie between the Green Line and the West Bank. The Green Line is the border. That's the law, and not one justice in that opinion disagreed on that point. And of course someone is going to read that and play the anti-Israel or anti-Semitism card, fully ignoring that 1) one of the justices was the US Justice, a Czech-born Holocaust survivor named Thomas Buergenthal and 2) another justice, Rosalyn Higgins née Cohen is also Jewish. So the two Jewish judges from two of the five permanent UN members, not 3rd-world-judges-with-anti-US/Israel/Jewish-axes-to-grind, both agreed on those points. 

If you're unwilling to acknowledge that, then answer this: does Egypt have an obligation to give back the Sinai to Israel? If no, why?

Edited by hpslugga
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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14489

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

From what I’ve gathered on the Twitterverse this week is a lot of people are believing a lie. People out there believe that Britain removed their military from Mandatory Palestine that a bunch of Jews showed up and kicked the Palestians out of their homes.

The truth of the matter is there were about 700k Jews in Mandatory Palestine in 1948 with a total population of roughly 2 million. The Israelites agreed to the UN’s two party solution that divided the country and gave each ethnic group control of the areas they dominated in numbers while leaving Jerusalem neutral. Palestians and the Arab league refused this and started attacking before Britain had completely removed their troops from the land. This attack included blockading Jerusalem affectively making it an “open air prison” for the Jewish population. Every Palestian driven from their home in 1948-1949 was a result of Arab aggression and the Jewish population in Israel defending themselves.

They thought since it was 5 on 1 they could end it immediately.  Israel beat them in a war where Arabs were the aggressor.  Tough shit.

This is all correct and if you really listen to the Palestinians bemoan the "illegal occupation," they believe it started in 1948 and not 1967.  That's a huge difference.

The Israeli/Palestinian issue is a lot more complex than most Americans think and there is blame to go around on both sides but at the end of the day, Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians need to have a reason for existence other than killing jews.  Every time some minor issue pops up like cartoons or embassies, thousands of them take to the streets in armed protest.  Maybe they should get jobs instead.

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27375

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Posted (edited)

Has Palestine officially recognized Israel’s right to exist?  I cannot find any official state declaration that they have. I find it pretty hypocritical to fault only Israel for not recognizing the rights of a state that refuses to recognize its right to exist. 

 

That seems like a fairly reasonable condition of negotiating with a state that has ruling factions whose stated goals are your elimination. 

 

https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/Joint-declaration-calls-on-US-to-demand-Palestinians-recognize-Jewish-state-514479/amp

 

this is the most recent article I could find on the matter and it states Palestine has not officially recognized Israel. Are they lying? 

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Sawbonz

Sawbonz 27375

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Posted
11 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

This is all correct and if you really listen to the Palestinians bemoan the "illegal occupation," they believe it started in 1948 and not 1967.  That's a huge difference.

The Israeli/Palestinian issue is a lot more complex than most Americans think and there is blame to go around on both sides but at the end of the day, Israel has a right to exist and the Palestinians need to have a reason for existence other than killing jews.  Every time some minor issue pops up like cartoons or embassies, thousands of them take to the streets in armed protest.  Maybe they should get jobs instead.

^^^ and this is why it was the most idiotic idea to open the Jerusalem embassy on May 14

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Aqua Buddha

Aqua Buddha 14489

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Posted
Just now, Sawbonz said:

^^^ and this is why it was the most idiotic idea to open the Jerusalem embassy on May 14

I agree.  There's no upside, going to cost an assload of money, and be a bombing target for the rest of history.  Literally, zero upside.

However, Israel and the US have the right to put our embassy wherever we want it and the Palestinians need to deal.

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Mojo Hand

Mojo Hand 4580

Posted
Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

The rationale for giving the Jews their own state where it currently resides is based on the scriptural tale that the God of Abraham promised them that land in his covenant with Moses. You'd agree with that, right?

No, I wouldn't agree.  That was one rationale for some people.   But the main rationale was that there were already 650,000 Jews there by 1947 (about half the number of Arabs), and a brewing conflict, so splitting the country seemed like a reasonable compromise to enough people that Israel got the votes.   Historical ties to the land certainly motivated Jews to move there in the first place, but the UN vote was based in the reality that was developing on the ground, not ancient tales. 

But that is ancient history now.  Whatever the motivations in 1948, Israel exists, and far more Jews have a native claim to the land than Palestinians born elsewhere.  You might as well argue that the United States's claim to the West is nullified by the religious beliefs of the proponents of manifest destiny.  Yeah, that motivated many of them many years ago, but it's not the basis for the US sovereignty in California now. 

Jews have Israel now for the same reason that Arabs had it before them.  They moved there, they live there, the vast majority by now were actually born there, and they defend their land.   Yet you deride their claim to the land as merely ancestral, while elevating the claims of Palestinians based purely on their ancestors.  How does the land belong to an Arab baby born in Jordan or Lebanon or, hell, Germany or Mexico, because that baby's grandfather lived in Jerusalem in 1945, but a Jewish baby born in Jerusalem is an interloper?

Argue all you want about the partition in 1948, but that argument was resolved the moment the UN voted.  The consequences can't be unwound. 

Edited by Mojo Hand
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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28700

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, Mojo Hand said:

No, I wouldn't agree.  That was one rationale for some people.   But the main rationale was that there were already 650,000 Jews there by 1947 (about half the number of Arabs), and a brewing conflict, so splitting the country seemed like a reasonable compromise to enough people that Israel got the votes.   Historical ties to the land certainly motivated Jews to move there in the first place, but the UN vote was based in the reality that was developing on the ground, not ancient tales. 

But that is ancient history now.  Whatever the motivations in 1948, Israel exists, and far more Jews have a native claim to the land than Palestinians born elsewhere.  You might as well argue that the United States's claim to the West is nullified by the religious beliefs of the proponents of manifest destiny.  Yeah, that motivated many of them many years ago, but it's not the basis for the US sovereignty in California now. 

Jews have Israel now for the same reason that Arabs had it before them.  They moved there, they live there, the vast majority by now were actually born there, and they defend their land.   Yet you deride their claim to the land as merely ancestral, while elevating the claims of Palestinians based purely on their ancestors.  How does the land belong to an Arab baby born in Jordan or Lebanon or, hell, Germany or Mexico, because that baby's grandfather lived in Jerusalem in 1945, but a Jewish baby born in Jerusalem is an interloper?

Argue all you want about the partition in 1948, but that argument was resolved the moment the UN voted.  The consequences can't be unwound. 

I stopped reading at "1947." The story is a lot older than that.

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