Israel

[chainsaw 9857]

Jews aren't a monolith. So many living in Israel are mortified by and ashamed of the occupation and genocide. Same in the US.

[Brian Fantana 6680]

2 hours ago, Ghost of LL said:

I don't want to speak for @mdmost, but I also have generally been sympathetic to Israel.  And for a long time, there were good justifications for that sympathy. 

From a national-interest standpoint, Israel was a staunch ally in the Eastern Mediterranean facing Soviet-backed enemies.  Its position near Suez and straddling the Eastern Med into the Middle East makes it strategically important.  And in the binary world of the Cold War, if it wasn't going to be our ally, it was going to be the Soviets'.  

From an emotional standpoint, yeah--it's easy to agree that the Jews ought to have a safe space given the unpleasantries of not just the past century, but the centuries before that.  And as one of the sponsors of the establishment of that safe space (along with the rest of the UNSC), we owe some obligation to ensure that it remains safe.

But those justifications are rapidly fading into the ether of history.  The Cold War is over.  And while the Soviet threat is somewhat replaced by threats from China and Russia, Israel is not exactly a reliable ally in any sort of anti-Russian or anti-Chinese bloc.  As we try to build alliances in the region to address regional threats, Israel is often more of a hinderance than a help.

And while creating a safe space for Jews in the Levant made sense, I don't think we ever signed up to support a starvation genocide of the Palestinian Arabs.  And if we did, we ought to un-sign right the fuck now.  Because "Never Again" shouldn't be read as "Never Again to us, but maybe it's ok if it's by us against some other group."

When Secretary Blinken was in Jerusalem last week, the Israelis announced the largest seizure of Palestinian land in the West Bank since 1993, with the land to be converted into settlements.  That's not how you treat the foreign minister of your most important ally.  And now Israel isn't sending a delegation that was summoned by the United States?  As @Brisketexan asks, what exactly does Israel think the power dynamic is in this relationship?

Israel obviously thinks that the United States is some sort of vassal state that owes it an unquestioning obligation to supply it arms and money in times of war.  Israel should be disabused of that notion.  If Israel wants to be an ally, then it can start acting like a fucking ally.  But if it wants to be our feudal lord, then fuck that--we ought to declare our independence and cut Israel off.

Great post. I was mostly sympathetic to Israel until I started learning (first from extended family and then from my own reading) about the history of the conflict, the settlements, the apartheid, etc. The fact that we support all of this with our public policy, money, and weapons is disgusting to me.

At the same time I have plenty of Jewish (mostly from the very Eastern European branch of my extended family on my mother's side) family and friends and I sympathize deeply with their fear of something like the Holocaust ever happening again. I just wish that Zionist sympathizers could see how close they are to perpetrating one of their own.

I know that most Jewish people/Israelis don't want to be in conflict with their Palestinian brothers and sisters, but at this point I lose a little sympathy (at least towards Israelis in Israel) every day Netanyahu and his special little cabal of right wing psychopaths (honestly, it feels a little too on the nose to call them Nazis, but do they behave any differently?) remain in power.

[Brian Fantana 6680]

33 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Jews aren't a monolith. So many living in Israel are mortified by and ashamed of the occupation and genocide. Same in the US.

This is so true and exactly why I got so pissed off in this thread every time someone had the fucking audacity to conflate Israel's (specifically Likud's) mission with the interests of Jewish people worldwide. It's not just that they're wrong, it's a directly anti-Semitic thing to do.

[956 Worldwide 34700]

13 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

I know that most Jewish people/Israelis don't want to be in conflict with their Palestinian brothers and sisters, but at this point I lose a little sympathy (at least towards Israelis in Israel) every day Netanyahu and his special little cabal of right wing psychopaths (honestly, it feels a little too on the nose to call them Nazis, but do they behave any differently?) remain in power.

Yes, very much so.  And not even when talking strictly about the attempted extermination of Jews.  I’m tempted to say something snarky but instead I’ll just suggest you do as much reading on this as you did on the Israel-Palestine conflict.  Making comparisons like this is a short circuit to trivializing yourself. 

[Brian Fantana 6680]

15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Yes, very much so.  And not even when talking strictly about the attempted extermination of Jews.  I’m tempted to say something snarky but instead I’ll just suggest you do as much reading on this as you did on the Israel-Palestine conflict.  Making comparisons like this is a short circuit to trivializing yourself. 

Just say what you want, dude. I'm over it. I tried to be a bigger person about this and I guess that was a mistake. So, that being said, do you feel better? You can call me antisemitic (again) if it's not enough for you.

I will not apologize, ever, for comparing aspects of Likud rhetoric directly to Nazi rhetoric. Obviously the two groups are not the same, for a multitude of reasons. I will not apologize, ever, for referring to Netanyahu as a right wing psychopath, because that's what he is. If you still have a problem with that, I'm not sure what to tell you other than just put me on ignore so you can stop reading my posts.

Edited March 25 by Brian Fantana

[956 Worldwide 34700]

10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Just say what you want, dude. I'm over it. I tried to be a bigger person about this and I guess that was a mistake. So, that being said, do you feel better? You can call me antisemitic (again) if it's not enough for you.

I will not apologize, ever, for comparing aspects of Likud rhetoric directly to Nazi rhetoric. Obviously the two groups are not the same, for a multitude of reasons. I will not apologize, ever, for referring to Netanyahu as a right wing psychopath, because that's what he is. If you still have a problem with that, I'm not sure what to tell you other than just put me on ignore so you can stop reading my posts.

LOL, you went from “do they behave any differently?” to “they are not the same” in back to back posts.  Completely incoherent. 

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Jews aren't a monolith. So many living in Israel are mortified by and ashamed of the occupation and genocide. Same in the US.

liberal Israeli Jews are a minority. The Labor party is dead, with only 4 of the 120 Knesset. 

[chainsaw 9857]

3 minutes ago, Make em eat Taco Bell said:

liberal Israeli Jews are a minority. The Labor party is dead, with only 4 of the 120 Knesset. 

I'm not talking about liberals here. I'm talking about anti-Zionists, which are an oppressed class within Israel. Many are intimidated into silence there.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/3/9/the-anti-zionists-israelis-calling-for-end-to-their-countrys-war-on-gaza

[Make em eat Taco Bell 1549]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I'm not talking about liberals here. I'm talking about anti-Zionists, which are an oppressed class within Israel. Many are intimidated into silence there.

https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2024/3/9/the-anti-zionists-israelis-calling-for-end-to-their-countrys-war-on-gaza

the body politic has moved far right with the anti-Zionists/liberals , whatever the name, are a very small part of the overall scene. The term "anti-Zionist" means wanting to eliminate the state of Israel , ie, Hamas is anti-Zionist, those protestors are anti oppression and racism. 

 

[Brian Fantana 6680]

21 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

LOL, you went from “do they behave any differently?” to “they are not the same” in back to back posts.  Completely incoherent. 

I was referring to their openly genocidal rhetoric, but whatever man. You're clearly just trolling so fuck off and farm more fattyflattie likes somewhere else.

[956 Worldwide 34700]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I was referring to their openly genocidal rhetoric, but whatever man. You're clearly just trolling so fuck off and farm more fattyflattie likes somewhere else.

I’m sorry, I thought you said “behave.” 
 

So many right-wing figures to choose from and you land on “Nazis…..” 

(if you’re looking for a better comparison, try maybe the Burmese junta or the Croatians in the 1990s). 

[Dnaguy 11919]

5 hours ago, Gatorubet said:

The US just refused to veto a resolution calling for a cease-fire in Palestine. The Israelis are unhappy and Bibi has canceled a visit to DC.

Hey Bibi:

[chainsaw 9857]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Burmese junta

You're joking right?

[956 Worldwide 34700]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You're joking right?

You’re right, the Burmese were much worse to the Rohingya. 

[chainsaw 9857]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

the Burmese were much worse

Were they, though?

[Brian Fantana 6680]

23 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m sorry, I thought you said “behave.” 
 

So many right-wing figures to choose from and you land on “Nazis…..” 

(if you’re looking for a better comparison, try maybe the Burmese junta or the Croatians in the 1990s). 

I did say behave. I was unclear about what I was referring to. I used the wrong word. A hell-worthy trespass, for sure.

[956 Worldwide 34700]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Were they, though?

Dawg, you’re not going to be denying what happened to the Rohingya on an Israel thread are you? They were all forced out of their homes and live in the worlds largest refugee camp, tens of thousands murdered, more raped.

[chainsaw 9857]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Dawg, you’re not going to be denying what happened to the Rohingya on an Israel thread are you? They were all forced out of their homes and live in the worlds largest refugee camp, tens of thousands murdered, more raped.

In six months? By a world class military? With my tax dollars?

[immamac 42835]

Count me in on the “let them deal with this shit themselves”. We have enough of our own shit to worry about to keep catching shit for picking sides in a lose lose. 

[Anastasis 23459]

Is this how the rules-based international order is suppose to work? 

 

Also related.

 

 

[chainsaw 9857]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

It's like he hasn't been paying attention

[Anastasis 23459]

57 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It's like he hasn't been paying attention

The particularly sad thing is that I find that unlikely. 

Edited March 26 by Anastasis
is is hard.

[Da Fino 2775]

5 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I tried to be a bigger person about this and I guess that was a mistake.

What  backwards world do you live in? Seriously. All you’ve done is call everyone you disagree with a troll or worse. You are a constant umbrage taker. This discussion could be so much more interesting if it wasn’t for you slinging your sophomoric shit at everyone that you don’t deem worthy. And how in the hell did fatty get brought into this? I don’t think he’s even fucked with this thread yet. 

[bolverk 29655]

3 minutes ago, Da Fino said:

What  backwards world do you live in? Seriously. All you’ve done is call everyone you disagree with a troll or worse. You are a constant umbrage taker. This discussion could be so much more interesting if it wasn’t for you slinging your sophomoric shit at everyone that you don’t deem worthy. And how in the hell did fatty get brought into this? I don’t think he’s even fucked with this thread yet. 

Here's how I see things from a very basic level.

There's a group of people who had a land claim from 2,000 years ago, and they'd been treated like shit for a very long time all over the world after they lost their land claim. Then, there was another group of people who tried to exterminate them. Well, the exterminators got their asses kicked, and the rest of the people felt bad. So, the people with the land claim were gifted the original land that another group of people already lived on to make the exterminators feel better about themselves.

The people whose land was given to the almost exterminated people weren't too happy about their land being given away, but they lost to the new land-owners, like, 3-4 times in wars. So, the nearly exterminated people got a little cocky and said, "There's no place for you on our land that we claim from 2,000 years ago! This land was promised to us by our sky daddy!"

The losers said, "The prophet of our sky daddy ascended to heaven from here!!! You can't have it."

Then, another separate group said, "Well, the son of our sky daddy and his 12 buddies said that the people whose sky daddy said this was their land needed to have it back so that the son of our sky daddy could rule the world for something like10,000 years according to our sacred book. Also, we feel really guilty about what happened to the previous landowners from 2,000 years ago by some of our own exterminators, and you guys are brown. So..."

Well, the people that had been living on that land didn't take too kindly to any of that, and they devised fucked up ways to resist all that shit, including blowing up the new landowners, along with buddying up with some neighbors. But they still didn't do too well and lost even more land.

Now, the previous landowners are still pissed and doing fucked up shit to resist, while the new landowners are doing some fucked up shit to the previous landowners. Never mind that the new landowners have some genocidal fucks among their leadership alongside genocidal fucks amount the previous landowners.

So, yeah, maybe we should take a step back and reconsider our involvement in all this fucked up bullshit.

[956 Worldwide 34700]

16 hours ago, chainsaw said:

In six months? By a world class military? With my tax dollars?

“The Burmese junta can’t be doing a genocide of Muslims as bad because they’re not aligned with the U.S. and their military isn’t as good,” thanks for this crystalline distillation of tankie thought and reminder that this isn’t really about Palestinians or lives at at all.

[chainsaw 9857]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“The Burmese junta can’t be doing a genocide of Muslims as bad because they’re not aligned with the U.S. and their military isn’t as good,” thanks for this crystalline distillation of tankie thought and reminder that this isn’t really about Palestinians or lives at at all.

Those were just some of the things that came to mind. Are the muslims being intentionally starved without any means of escape?

[Brisketexan 105064]

11 hours ago, bolverk said:

So, yeah, maybe we should take a step back and reconsider our involvement in all this fucked up bullshit.

I believe our response is "don't care, got delicious hummus," or something equally as trivial.

[Brian Fantana 6680]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Those were just some of the things that came to mind. Are the muslims being intentionally starved without any means of escape?

I swear homie is a Destiny fan

 

E: That's probably not fair tbh, he knows way too much history to be a Destiny fan.

Edited March 26 by Brian Fantana

[statsman 5450]

On 3/26/2024 at 12:19 AM, bolverk said:

Here's how I see things from a very basic level.

There's a group of people who had a land claim from 2,000 years ago, and they'd been treated like shit for a very long time all over the world after they lost their land claim. Then, there was another group of people who tried to exterminate them. Well, the exterminators got their asses kicked, and the rest of the people felt bad. So, the people with the land claim were gifted the original land that another group of people already lived on to make the exterminators feel better about themselves.

The people whose land was given to the almost exterminated people weren't too happy about their land being given away, but they lost to the new land-owners, like, 3-4 times in wars. So, the nearly exterminated people got a little cocky and said, "There's no place for you on our land that we claim from 2,000 years ago! This land was promised to us by our sky daddy!"

The losers said, "The prophet of our sky daddy ascended to heaven from here!!! You can't have it."

Then, another separate group said, "Well, the son of our sky daddy and his 12 buddies said that the people whose sky daddy said this was their land needed to have it back so that the son of our sky daddy could rule the world for something like10,000 years according to our sacred book. Also, we feel really guilty about what happened to the previous landowners from 2,000 years ago by some of our own exterminators, and you guys are brown. So..."

Well, the people that had been living on that land didn't take too kindly to any of that, and they devised fucked up ways to resist all that shit, including blowing up the new landowners, along with buddying up with some neighbors. But they still didn't do too well and lost even more land.

Now, the previous landowners are still pissed and doing fucked up shit to resist, while the new landowners are doing some fucked up shit to the previous landowners. Never mind that the new landowners have some genocidal fucks among their leadership alongside genocidal fucks amount the previous landowners.

So, yeah, maybe we should take a step back and reconsider our involvement in all this fucked up bullshit.

There is a little more to this. 
 
During the Holocaust, the western nations had opportunities to help, by taking in refugee Jews. Some individuals helped, bending rules and skirting regulations, to help some escape. They had to break rules, because western governments were more concerned about keeping another war from breaking out, and dealing with domestic issues. For example, see the ship that FDR sent away from Miami, full of German Jews trying to find sanctuary in America, pre-war. 
 
After the war, there were survivors of the camps. Some tried to return home, and reclaim property. Many were killed, notably in Poland. It turns out that murderous anti-Semitism was not purely a German feature. 
 
This played a big part in the creation of modern Israel. The western nations were trying to settle down, and really didn’t want the agitation of dealing with “them” (check out contemporary news accounts of Jewish post war refugees in the NYT archives; they are jarring in their anti-Semitism). When the Zionist proposed the Levant, the western powers couldn’t believe their luck. 
 
“Never again” to the Gentile world means “we’ll never stand aside and watch a genocide again”, which clearly, is bullshit (ask the Rohingyas and Uighers, among others). The world absolutely will stand aside and watch. 

“Never again” to Jews means “we’ll never count on Gentiles to save us or even do simply the right thing again. We’ll take care of our protection ourselves” and they mean it.

So, here we are. There is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Israel could do more to help. Hamas is actively trying to keep aid from civilians, because this disaster is their best chance of survival as an organization. And if Hamas does survive as an organization? They will be seen as the victors, and the leaders of the Palestinian people. Goodbye, Fatah and Palestinian Authority. 
 
A couple of things that could be discussed more:

Iran is bankrolling Hamas’ military ventures. Their hands are far more involved in this than Qatar’s. Oh, for a coherent Iran policy. 
 
I don’t know if Israel has an end game strategy for Hamas, but it will have to involve killing a lot of Hamas militants and leaders. They “declared war” on Hamas, but any ending that looks like a conventional war ending (surrender, detentions of leaders, occupation) isn’t a real ending at all, but merely a stay in the conflict. We know from experience with Guantanamo releases that nobody gets reformed and rehabilitated in ME conflicts. 
 
So, part of me wonders if Israel has thought this ending through, and part of me fears that it has and we might see it. 

Edited March 27 by statsman

[Brian Fantana 6680]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

We’ll take care of our protection ourselves” and they mean it.

Cool. They can stop using my tax dollars, then.

[statsman 5450]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Cool. They can stop using my tax dollars, then.

I think that’s in the future. 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

23 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think that’s in the future. 

I don’t. 

[RomaVicta 29902]

We are inevitably one of the wishy-washiest too-cute-by-half participants in international affairs, or we're bloodthirsty invaders without a clear policy at all. You see, this is very clever and subtle. We didn't vote against the kind of measure we've used to justify invasions which we now claim are non-impactful to our policies.

You see, we voted that this slaughter was bad, but we're still going to fund it until Israel reaches its goal. Then we'll denounce the carnage and send crates and crates of Band Aids to show how we're really not attached to what precipitated their need.

Fucking embarrassing and cruel. Please don't explain why it's politically essential. The embarrassment and cruelty won't be diminished. 

@chainsaw responds to @956 Worldwide

 

 

I missed the first part of this, but I think I get the gist. 

Comparing the relative evil of two slaughters or debating the use of the word "genocide" is pointless. They're two slaughters. I hadn't heard of the horrors visited on Rohingya until today. It's terrible. It's irrelevant to the discussion of the Israel obliteration campaing in Gaza.

I don't have an answer for the Rohingya. I'm glad we're not part of it. If we are part of it as in the case with Israel, then I'm horrified yet again.

Chainsaw boiled down the essential elements of the Gaza campaign (not war).

• It's a brutal campaign executed by a  first-rate conventional military force against a nation possessed of no way to defend against it.
• It's moving at high speed to meet its bloody goals before there are any consequences.
• We, the goddamn USA, are helping.

It's all monstrous. 

Edited March 27 by RomaVicta

[statsman 5450]

4 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

 

It's all monstrous. 

I have a line I use in discussions about the U.S. using nukes to end the war in the pacific. 
 
“We were at war with monsters (Imperial Japan could match Hamas, atrocity for atrocity), and in order to defeat them, we did monstrous things”. 

[chainsaw 9857]

16 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

We are inevitably one of the wishy-washiest too-cute-by-half participants in international affairs, or we're bloodthirsty invaders without a clear policy at all. You see, this is very clever and subtle. We didn't vote against the kind of measure we've used to justify invasions which we now claim are non-impactful to our policies.

You see, we voted that this slaughter was bad, but we're still going to fund it until Israel reaches its goal. Then we'll denounce the carnage and send crates and crates of Band Aids to show how we're really not attached to what precipitated their need.

Fucking embarrassing and cruel. Please don't explain why it's politically essential. The embarrassment and cruelty won't be diminished. 

@chainsaw responds to @956 Worldwide

 

 

I missed the first part of this, but I think I get the gist. 

Comparing the relative evil of two slaughters or debating the use of the word "genocide" is pointless. They're two slaughters. I hadn't heard of the horrors visited on Rohingya until today. It's terrible. It's irrelevant to the discussion of the Israel obliteration campaing in Gaza.

I don't have an answer for the Rohingya. I'm glad we're not part of it. If we are part of it as in the case with Israel, then I'm horrified yet again.

Chainsaw boiled down the essential elements of the Gaza campaign (not war).

• It's a brutal campaign executed by a  first-rate conventional military force against a nation possessed of now way to defend against it.
• It's moving at high speed to meet its bloody goals before there are any consequences.
• We, the goddamn USA, are helping.

It's all monstrous. 

That, and it was preceded by decades of apartheid rule and, for the victims, life in an open air prison. Again, this is a population consisting overwhelmingly of children or people who were not old enough to have voted Hamas into power back in the mid aughts. So there's a sort of collective punishment going on, too. We also should note that Netanyahu wanted Hamas to remain in power precisely because it would invariably lead to escalating tensions and the pretext necessary to sell allies and the Israeli public on invading Gaza.

I won't dispute that the Nazis were a unique evil, nor that the Holocaust presented unique horrors. I will dispute the idea that @Brian Fantana's comparison of their behavior to what we're seeing unfold in real time is somehow beyond comprehension. There are similarities: a population is being deliberately placed in a camp, that same population is being deliberately subjected to malnutrition and medical neglect, that population is not able to easily or freely escape its captivity. The fact that there are also important differences doesn't mean the comparison is unhelpful.

Making these comparisons to advocate against genocide does not trivialize the unique horrors of the Holocaust. It's much worse to use the Holocaust to deflect or derail anti-genocide advocacy, in my opinion.

Edited March 27 by chainsaw

[RomaVicta 29902]

20 minutes ago, statsman said:

I have a line I use in discussions about the U.S. using nukes to end the war in the pacific. 
 
“We were at war with monsters (Imperial Japan could match Hamas, atrocity for atrocity), and in order to defeat them, we did monstrous things”. 

Such is war. That's why I'm slow to criticize soldiers in the field or some of the ferocious decisions made by warring governments so long as it stays within some bounds. The Nagasaki bomb is a questionable choice. Hiroshima likely isn't.

This isn't war in Gaza. Israel wants that label for the line you use regarding monstrous actions. They want that lattitude that can be claimed by an attacked nation. They have that lattitude with Hamas as far as I'm concerned. They don't, IMHO, have the lattitude allowed for war in their campaign against the Gazans. 

We used a nuclear weapon against a nation state refusing to surrender. We didn't kill everyone in Japan or force them off their island. 

Pointing to atrocities is an emotional argument for justifying something no longer related to those atrocities. The atrocities have simply become the stated reason for the war. Think of the Maine or the Gulf of Tonkin. This is the equivalent of, "what if it were your sister?" Even if it were, I wouldn't advocate killing or displacing everyone within a 20 mile radius of where the suspects were hiding.

Edited March 27 by RomaVicta

[chainsaw 9857]

8 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

We used a nuclear weapon against a nation state refusing to surrender.

This actually might not be true.

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/hiroshima-and-myths-military-targets-and-unconditional-surrender

Quote

Commentators who continue to claim that the Hiroshima bombing was the lesser evil rely on a flawed assumption: that unconditional surrender was the only acceptable outcome. Those who perpetuate the myth of unconditional surrender forget that U.S. decision-makers in 1945 considered other ways of ending the war with Japan. Weighing the lives lost from the atomic bombings against the potential lives lost in an American invasion of Japan ignores the possibility that the war could end with neither an invasion nor nuclear attacks.

At the Potsdam Conference, Stimson recommended that the U.S. modify the unconditional surrender terms to signal to the Japanese government that Emperor Hirohito would not be put on trial. Truman rejected this advice, and the Potsdam Declaration instead stated that “[t]here must be eliminated for all time the authority and influence of those who have deceived and misled the people of Japan into embarking on world conquest” and warned that “stern justice shall be meted out to all war criminals.”

 

[statsman 5450]

No intent to derail thread; I hope this adds perspective on making horrible decisions (when the question itself is horrible and all the options are horrible). 
 
Imperial Japan had a bio weapon research unit in China, Unit 731. They killed 200-300k, but they were almost entirely Chinese populations, so the west took little notice. They were working on a plan to spread pestilence to California. 
 
Their operation shut down immediately upon the post Nagasaki surrender. The army leaders went to the pens where human test subjects were kept, popped a cap into each of them, and abandoned the base. 
 
Unit 731 did not factor into the atom bomb decision, but I can be persuaded that almost anything that expedited its end was worthwhile. 

[Brian Fantana 6680]

Wow.

 

[statsman 5450]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Wow.

 

Yeah. I would argue that whoever a society or people gets it into their heads that they are innately superior to another, really shitty things happen. 
 
That’s why I think we Americans should embrace an identity as the mongrels and castoffs of the world. 

[BrickHorn 18216]

9 minutes ago, statsman said:

Yeah. I would argue that whoever a society or people gets it into their heads that they are innately superior to another, really shitty things happen. 
 
That’s why I think we Americans should embrace an identity as the mongrels and castoffs of the world. 

Or we could learn from our sordid past and make better decisions.

Edited March 27 by BrickHorn

[chainsaw 9857]

36 minutes ago, statsman said:

 almost anything that expedited its end was worthwhile. 

I guess this gets into trolley problem higher level philosophical stuff. The only thing I wanted to say was that there is evidence Japan was willing to surrender (presumably that meant no bio weapons) before the atomic bombs were dropped. The only condition Japan had was to protect the Emperor from prosecution.

If that is true, then it's revisionist history and immoral to say the mass killing of innocent civilians through the use of nuclear weapons was "necessary" to get Japan to surrender when a much less extreme option (accepting Japan's condition) was available.

[Anastasis 23459]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:14 PM, statsman said:

I would argue that whoever a society or people gets it into their heads that they are innately superior to another, really shitty things happen. 

You mean, kinda like the Children of the Light?

Edited March 29 by Anastasis

[statsman 5450]

58 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

You mean, kinda like the Children of the Light?

I don’t know who that is. 
 
I was talking about the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese, both believing they had some kind of genetic superiority. 

[Anastasis 23459]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

I don’t know who that is. 
 
I was talking about the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese, both believing they had some kind of genetic superiority. 

 

Fun little game of guess who said it, a Nazi, an Imperial Japanese, or an Israeli.

"We must create a situation whereby killing a [ethnicity] is like killing a rat, where [ethnicity] are dirt, and thereby showing that we and not they are the power to be reckoned with in [country]"

"They aren’t human beings and not human animals, they’re subhuman and that’s how they should be treated."

"Exterminating the roaches... exterminating the rats...Share this beauty."

"We have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads."

"Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live"

 

 

[BrickHorn 18216]

1 hour ago, statsman said:

I don’t know who that is. 
 
I was talking about the Nazis and the Imperial Japanese, both believing they had some kind of genetic superiority. 

Ironically, exceptionalism is universal.

[Brisketexan 105064]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Fun little game of guess who said it, a Nazi, an Imperial Japanese, or an Israeli.

"We must create a situation whereby killing a [ethnicity] is like killing a rat, where [ethnicity] are dirt, and thereby showing that we and not they are the power to be reckoned with in [country]"

"They aren’t human beings and not human animals, they’re subhuman and that’s how they should be treated."

"Exterminating the roaches... exterminating the rats...Share this beauty."

"We have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads."

"Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live"

I don't know exactly who said that, I just know that he is already the presumptive 2028 GOP presidential nominee.

[chainsaw 9857]

7 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

Fun little game of guess who said it, a Nazi, an Imperial Japanese, or an Israeli.

"We must create a situation whereby killing a [ethnicity] is like killing a rat, where [ethnicity] are dirt, and thereby showing that we and not they are the power to be reckoned with in [country]"

"They aren’t human beings and not human animals, they’re subhuman and that’s how they should be treated."

"Exterminating the roaches... exterminating the rats...Share this beauty."

"We have no solution, you shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads."

"Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live"

 

 

Not to derail things too much, but I've long believed that this type of speech has no value and deserves zero protection. If we need a constitutional amendment to clarify the scope of the First Amendment, we should pass that amendment.

[safe sex 11696]

On 3/25/2024 at 2:38 PM, TreatyOak said:

Democracy is always at a disadvantage. The very nature of being tolerant puts you at a disadvantage against people who are willing to use a democratic system to seize power, and install a totalitarian regime. The Nazis were a prime example of this, as were the Bolsheviks. I can see Trump and his minions using the courts to have him declared president for life. 

Recently read that the Paradox of Tolerance can be resolved if you look at tolerance not as a moral standard but as a social contract. And as the bigots, fascists, et al. do not abide by that terms of that contract, then they should not enjoy its protection.

[Brisketexan 105064]

53 minutes ago, safe sex said:

Recently read that the Paradox of Tolerance can be resolved if you look at tolerance not as a moral standard but as a social contract. And as the bigots, fascists, et al. do not abide by that terms of that contract, then they should not enjoy its protection.

TLDR; do what my grandpa did: shoot nazis in the face.  It's the only fucking way they get the message.