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8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Okay, got it. I thought you were just being intentionally dense, but you're actually just blindingly stupid.

e: This is your hero, btw, @DDD Dad

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Yes, I’m the emotional one about this. You’re totally rational.  Multiple insults in consecutive posts. I asked about your family weeks ago out of concern. Your wrath-filled responses have killed any concern. Your repetitive presence here betray your anti-Israel stance and true feelings. 

I’ll wave at you when I pass by my weekly Free Palestine protest. Also, bro calm down. 

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2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Okay, got it. I thought you were just being intentionally dense, but you're actually just blindingly stupid.

e: This is your hero, btw, @DDD Dad

John Goodman Lol GIF by Roseanne

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ETA Can you please stop shitting all over this thread with Rex?  Y'all should just fuck already.

Edited by DDD Dad
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1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

Yes, I’m the emotional one about this. You’re totally rational.  Multiple insults in consecutive posts. I asked about your family weeks ago out of concern. Your wrath-filled responses have killed any concern. Your repetitive presence here betray your anti-Israel stance and true feelings. 

I’ll wave at you when I pass by my weekly Free Palestine protest. Also, bro calm down. 

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

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What are my true feelings? Let's hear it.

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Also, I won't talk about my family beyond the fact that they exist (ostensibly, in some cases). It's not personal.

 

1 hour ago, Rex Kramer said:

I mean can you fucking read?  I’ve enumerated above. Not gonna rehash. I think this conversation has run its course. 

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Ok, I guess. You haven't enumerated shit other than to cry about me being "anti-Israel" whatever the fuck that means.

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17 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

So a F35 or something was outside Iran airspace and fired a missile into Iran, nothing was detected ?

I read the bomb was planted months ago, monitored for when the target was in there, detonated remotely. 

Now I have to find where I saw that.

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34 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Can you please stop shitting all over this thread with Rex?  Y'all should just fuck already.

Yeah this thread was so awesome before all that. That was the very first instance of shitting.

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How many cruise missiles can an Ohio clas sub carry ?

Each SSGN is capable of carrying 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles, plus a complement of Harpoon missiles to be fired through their torpedo tubes.

 

Philly GIF by Philadelphia Flyers

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This occurred at the same facility where previous accusations by Israel's own medical staff that thousands of non-combatants (hostages, IMO) have been abused, detained in squalid conditions, not allowed to use restrooms, forced to wear diapers, continuously handcuffed/blindfolded, and undergone surgeries without adequate painkillers. Oh, and Israel refuses to grant journalists or the Red Cross access.

When the soldiers responsible for the abuse in this video were arrested, right-wingers were allowed to overrun the facility. 

Israel court hears bid to close prison where soldiers are accused of sexually assaulting Palestinian

JERUSALEM (AP) — The Israeli Supreme Court considered a petition Wednesday to shutter a desert military prison where soldiers have been accused of abusing Palestinians, as a new video emerged purporting to show the sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee.

Rights groups have been engaged in a legal battle since June to shut down the detention facility, known as Sde Teiman, where Israel has held many Palestinians detained in Gaza during the 10-month war with Hamas. The groups claim that conditions at the facility are grave and that abuse by Israeli soldiers is common, basing their claims on testimony from released detainees and Israeli whistleblowers.

Calls for the prison’s closure ramped up in late July, when Israeli military police arrested 10 soldiers from Sde Teiman on suspicion of their involvement in the alleged sexual assault of a Palestinian detainee at the facility. Five of the soldiers are no longer under investigation. A physician who identified himself as the person who reported the attack said last week that the detainee appeared to have been seriously sexually abused.

The soldiers’ detention triggered angry protests by supporters, and at least two government ministers demanded their release. The response underscored tensions between the military command and hard-line nationalists in Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government who advocate even harsher treatment of Palestinians detained from Gaza.

Defense lawyer Nati Rom told The Associated Press that the soldiers were arrested about a month after the alleged attack and are accused of performing acts of sodomy on the detainee. He said the soldiers used force to defend themselves against a detainee who attacked them during a search, but did not sexually abuse him.

A video purporting to reveal the assault shows a group of masked soldiers wresting a detainee from the ground, where he and other Palestinians appear to be lying face down in a fenced-in pen, their arms cuffed above their heads. The soldiers take the detainee to an area of the pen they appear to cordon off using shields. Footage then shows about eight soldiers and a dog with the detainee, largely hidden from view by shields held up by some of the soldiers. Israel’s Channel 12 news, which broadcast the video, said it captures the moment of the attack.

Two soldiers who formerly worked at the facility and requested anonymity for fear of retribution told the AP they believed the video had been taken at Sde Teiman. The room in which the detainees appear, a corral topped by barbed wire, matches photos of the facility shared with the AP and the description of incarceration conditions that whistleblowers have previously described.

Military prosecutors stated that evidence brought forth in the case indicates “a reasonable suspicion of the commission of the acts,” the Israeli military said Tuesday. The military did not comment on the video.

U.S. officials have seen the video, State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said Wednesday. He called the reports of sexual abuse “horrific.”

“Prisoners’ human rights need to be respected in all cases and when there are alleged violations, the government of Israel needs to take steps to investigate those who are alleged to have committed abuses and, if appropriate, hold them accountable,” Miller said.

Meanwhile, more information about the case has come to light from a doctor who treated the detainee in question.

Dr. Yoel Donchin, an Israeli anesthesiologist at the field hospital for Palestinian detainees at Sde Teiman, came forward Friday as the person who reported the case to the military authorities.

In an interview with Israeli public broadcaster Kan, Donchin said the detainee’s life was in danger and that he was in need of emergency surgery after the attack.

During the interview, Donchin confirmed information attributed to an unidentified medical official who said the detainee had fractured ribs, showed signs of beating and bore evidence of being sodomized, leading to a tear in the lower part of the intestines.

Donchin said the detainee’s case was the most extreme he had witnessed since working at the facility.

Naji Abbas, a case manager with Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, said the detainee was transferred to a civilian hospital outside Sde Teiman about a month ago because his injuries were too severe for treatment at the military facility. Abbas received his information from a medical source with knowledge of the case.

In a written submission to the Israeli Supreme Court in advance of Wednesday’s hearing, state attorneys did not mention the military’s sexual assault investigation, but insisted the rights groups’ claims of deplorable conditions were inaccurate.

The Israeli organization arguing in court for the military prison’s closure, the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, had alleged that detainees at the facility are punished with severe violence, including with attack dogs and sexual assault; made to sit on the ground blindfolded and handcuffed 24 hours a day; forbidden from moving or speaking and rarely shower or change clothes.

An investigation by the AP into the facility documented how detainees are blindfolded, handcuffed and diapered during medical treatment.

The state, in a written response, said detainees were given sufficient food and water, showered regularly, accessed medical treatment as needed, and were blindfolded and handcuffed because of concerns that they could harm staff. The state said a new wing of Sde Teiman set to open Sept. 5 would improve conditions, including adding a walking area for detainees. Additional improvements are expected to be made later this year, it said.

Following Wednesday’s hearing, the court gave the state a week and a half to provide more information about conditions at the prison.

Sde Teiman was the main military prison holding Palestinians captured in large-scale raids on the Gaza Strip. Israel began moving detainees out of the facility following the rights groups’ petition to shut it down. State filings show 28 detainees remain.

Under Israeli law, Palestinians from Gaza can be held at the facility, and other military detention camps, without a detention order, trial or charge for over a month. Many Palestinian detainees have spent weeks in the facility before being released back to Gaza after Israeli authorities deemed them unaffiliated with militant groups.

 

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Breaking the Silence is an organization of veteran soldiers who have served in the Israeli military since the start of the Second Intifada and have taken it upon themselves to expose the public to the reality of everyday life in the Occupied Territories. We endeavor to stimulate public debate about the price paid for a reality in which young soldiers face a civilian population on a daily basis, and are engaged in the control of that population’s everyday life. Our work aims to bring an end to the occupation.

Soldiers who serve in the territories witness and participate in military actions that change them immensely. Cases of abuse toward Palestinians, looting and destruction of property have been the norm for years, but these incidents are still described officially as “extreme” and “unique” cases. Our testimonies portray a different – and much grimmer – picture, in which the deterioration of moral standards finds expression in the character of the military orders and rules of engagement that the state considers justified in the name of Israel’s security.

While this reality is well-known to Israeli soldiers and commanders, Israeli society in general continues to turn a blind eye and deny what is being done in its name. Discharged soldiers returning to civilian life discover the gap between the reality they encountered in the territories, and the silence about this reality they find at home. In order to resume civilian life, soldiers have to ignore what they have seen and done. We strive to make heard the voices of these soldiers, pushing Israeli society to face the reality it has created.

https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/videos

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22 minutes ago, tx 3 putt said:

 

 

Come on, man. Don't be like PRONG HORN. How about you address the systematic brutality being perpetrated on the Palestinian people instead of reposting shit from a right-wing rage account like Visegrad. 

Our very own Traces of Texas has more followers on Instagram:

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19 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Smart, this will surely widen their approval and appeal others to their cause.  

Those people are clowns. The only people who give them any traction in the public eye are right-wingers and Islamophobes who spread it to purposely piss everyone else off. As I've said from the beginning, these protestors' antics have been counterproductive and have only given people an excuse to wave away any concerns about civilians in harm's way.

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37 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

Smart, this will surely widen their approval and appeal others to their cause.  

I agree with @bolverk's response to this, but I'll add that I find it pretty damned amusing that you have all kinds of smoke for this utterly irrelevant and entirely toothless group of dumb students, and nothing but crickets for the human rights abuses that the IDF is perpetrating, with full throated support (and threats of toppling the government if it were to stop) from certain prominent Israeli politicians.

I know that you've since walked back your position that those of us that speak up for Palestinians and criticize the actions of the Israeli government are just antisemites in disguise, and I do thank you for that, but maybe you should reconsider your approach to this topic if you continue to find yourself on the same side as the worldwide reactionary right, and have nothing else to add but drive by shitposts whenever someone posts a tweet from a right-wing rage bait account.

28 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Come on, man. Don't be like PRONG HORN. How about you address the systematic brutality being perpetrated on the Palestinian people instead of reposting shit from a right-wing rage account like Visegrad. 

Our very own Traces of Texas has more followers on Instagram:

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It's amazing how this particular subject turns people like him, otherwise great posters, into barely coherent reactionaries. He's not going to respond because he never does when called out (refusing to defend your positions in any way also being a common reactionary tactic), but yeah.

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That's all fair.  I have generally come to avoid this topic because my views on it are not straightforward, likely conflicting, and honestly not worth trying to justify on a message board where I know people feel very strongly in the other direction.

What I will gladly discuss, however, is process.  You'll see posts of mine touching on it all over this forum, from the football board to the Astros thread to recruiting.  Generally, I am okay with bad results as long as the process is sound.  Game planning, making a baseball deadline deal, whatever: I get the most upset when the process is flawed from the start.

I fully support the right to protest.  I think it's an important part of the history of our country and we are better now than we used to be largely because of this right.  But I cannot stand protesters that do not understand the assignment.  The goal should not be to protest, the goal should be to drive change.  Nobody has ever been swayed by dumbasses laying down on the highway blocking traffic to the airport. Nobody has ever seen those idiots throwing paint on works of art and decided to join the cause.  So many of the protesters I've seen seem to have an end goal of yelling "Free Palestine" instead of actually fucking freeing Palestine.  Learn your fucking audience, understand the objective, and act accordingly.  There is nothing gained by claiming that you want to end western civilization, unless the only goal is to piss people off.

I admit I've likely been too crass on the topic in here, but I assure you my hostility is not specifically toward a side in this conflict.  It's towards stupidity and a flawed sense of self-importance.

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42 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

That's all fair.  I have generally come to avoid this topic because my views on it are not straightforward, likely conflicting, and honestly not worth trying to justify on a message board where I know people feel very strongly in the other direction.

What I will gladly discuss, however, is process.  You'll see posts of mine touching on it all over this forum, from the football board to the Astros thread to recruiting.  Generally, I am okay with bad results as long as the process is sound.  Game planning, making a baseball deadline deal, whatever: I get the most upset when the process is flawed from the start.

I fully support the right to protest.  I think it's an important part of the history of our country and we are better now than we used to be largely because of this right.  But I cannot stand protesters that do not understand the assignment.  The goal should not be to protest, the goal should be to drive change.  Nobody has ever been swayed by dumbasses laying down on the highway blocking traffic to the airport. Nobody has ever seen those idiots throwing paint on works of art and decided to join the cause.  So many of the protesters I've seen seem to have an end goal of yelling "Free Palestine" instead of actually fucking freeing Palestine.  Learn your fucking audience, understand the objective, and act accordingly.  There is nothing gained by claiming that you want to end western civilization, unless the only goal is to piss people off.

I admit I've likely been too crass on the topic in here, but I assure you my hostility is not specifically toward a side in this conflict.  It's towards stupidity and a flawed sense of self-importance.

I understand your position and thanks for the reply. It actually sounds like my approach to poker (not being results oriented but trying to make the correct decisions in any given situation). I totally agree there are too many people that don't understand the assignment, mostly students with their hearts in the right place, but not sufficiently educated or experienced to understand how to actually advance the cause instead of just rubbing shit in people's faces when they disagree with you.

There's a fine line between making people uncomfortable (which any effective protest must do) and just pissing them off so they close their minds to what you're saying, for sure.

On that note, I'm certainly guilty myself of being overly aggressive on this topic at times, but mostly I just get enraged when I see people post shit from right wing rage bait accounts and just smile and nod, especially when it's a poster (like tx 3 putt) that I consider otherwise excellent and level headed. The same applies to the OSINT propaganda dorks.

It's the same reason that I will immediately shit all over PRONG HORN when he posts in this thread, because he'll post some absolute dogshit agitprop from Ian Miles Cheong or some other reactionary dipshit and instead of getting absolutely barbecued by the board at large like he would in any other thread (that's not in the DT), it's always just crickets because looking the other way regarding Israel is the default position in this country.

Personally, the fact that Bibi can just waltz into to our country and scold Congress on national TV because the president or whomever tells him he needs to dial the violence back or no more weapons is incredibly insulting to me.  The fact that we subsequently arrested hundreds of people for protesting at the capital while he was speaking (most of whom were protesting peacefully with Jewish Voice for Peace) is absolutely unconscionable to me and yet it can't be discussed in here at all because no one will engage the topic. It's just drive by tweets and nothing else.

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I’m happy to enage. The protesters at the capitol were not there while Netanyahu was speaking but the day before, no groups at all are allowed to occupy the capitol rotunda for protests and political demonstrations, and they were all advised they could disperse or be arrested and they chose to be arrested.  
 

All in all, highly indicative of asshole behavior of a certain type, which is deliberately confusing the existent right to protest, petition, and speak with the non-existent right to force people to listen to you at any time and place of your choosing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m happy to enage. The protesters at the capitol were not there while Netanyahu was speaking but the day before, no groups at all are allowed to occupy the capitol rotunda for protests and political demonstrations, and they were all advised they could disperse or be arrested and they chose to be arrested.  
 

All in all, highly indicative of asshole behavior of a certain type, which is deliberately confusing the existent right to protest, petition, and speak with the non-existent right to force people to listen to you at any time and place of your choosing.

Always interesting to see what you're willing to engage with. Human rights abuses? Netanyahu's shitty conduct? Certainly not. Anyone you can scold while hiding behind legal technicalities? That's your jam! Here's my counter point:

Who gives a fuck?

Ignoring the fact that it doesn't matter even a little bit that they protested the day before, they were clearly doing it in response to Netanyahu's forthcoming speech before Congress, in addition to their ongoing protest against the genocide. Really weird argument to make, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make besides trying to be a debatelord. Aha, they were there the day BEFORE, so clearly it had NOTHING to do with Bibi! Points for me!!!

As to the rest, I can tell you right now, as a person with a functioning brain that does not equate legality with morality, that I don't give a single fuck about an arbitrary rule that was deliberately made policy by the Capitol Police in order to circumvent the first amendment and neither should you. Shouting "b-b-b-b-b-but they're breaking the law" is not, and never has been, a compelling argument against peaceful protest. Unless you're a bootlicker, I suppose.

On the contrary, civil disobedience is, in fact, the only effective way to protest. The laws/rules/policies in place that tell you when, where, and how you are allowed to protest are largely designed to minimize the impact and visibility of your protest, not to actually protect anyone.

That said, do I agree that you're an asshole if you block a road where hard working people are just trying to get to work and survive? Of course. Are you an asshole if you vandalize public or private property to try and get your message across? Definitely.

Are you an asshole if sit down in the middle of the capitol rotunda and peacefully protest? Abso-fucking-lutely not. In fact, you should keep doing it (as JVP has been) and tell them to suck your fucking dick every time they arrest you for it.

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1 hour ago, Biff Tannen said:

Well this seems like it may be about to ramp way up. God dammit. 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-01/ty-article/.premium/is-israel-deliberately-provoking-escalation-that-might-drag-the-u-s-into-the-conflict/00000191-0e5d-dc54-a7dd-ffdfbb610000

And this was written at the beginning of the month. It's just going to be an endless series of escalations until either Bibi's coalition is ousted or we're dragged into another massive conflict in the middle east.

Spoilering the whole article because it's paywalled:

Spoiler

The assassination of terrorists, for lack of a better word, is good. It is the epitome of raw justice served. It is morally and ethically justifiable. But human sentiment, vendettas and natural rage aside, assassinations are not a strategy or a policy. They also rarely, if ever, change the fundamentals, parameters and dynamics of a conflict.

In terms of an ongoing conflict, assassinations are by definition tactical with very few examples in history of having strategic consequences, such as the political assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in 1914 that ignited World War I.

Before engaging in qualms, questions, reservations or skepticism on the real efficacy and cost-effectiveness of recent targeted killings carried out by Israel, an unequivocal and unambiguous caveat is required: This week's assassinations of senior Hezbollah commander Fuad Shukr in Beirut and Hamas' political leader Ismail Haniyeh in Tehran were warranted and justified. In fact, the two – together with Mohammed Deif, the Hamas military commander whose killing in Gaza last month was confirmed by Israel on Thursday – deserved to be eliminated more than once if that were possible.

But that is not the question. The question is: was it smart?

Revenge and justice are two very strong motivations and driving forces in human behavior. They are equally potent elements in how countries pursue foreign policy, particularly against terrorism. That many Israelis were rejoicing was natural, human, understandable and justifiable. But that too is not the issue.

If you want a broad history of Israel's assassination policy in both theory and practice, read Ronen Bergman's excellent 2018 book "Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel's Targeted Assassinations." Here, we should discuss not the value of the assassinations, the meticulous intelligence, the precision of the execution and the impressive pyrotechnics, nor the dispensability and replaceability of the targets, but the issue of escalation.

Killing Deif in Gaza during a war is one thing. Killing Shukr – who was wanted also by the United States for his involvement in the killing of hundreds of American soldiers – falls into that category too, given Hezbollah's incessant harassment and firing of rockets and drones into Israel.

But the assassination of Haniyeh in Tehran after the inauguration of the new Iranian president, widely attributed to Israel, is an entirely different story. This is not about justice, retribution or settling accounts. This is about flirting with major escalation.

This leads to two possible explanations: That Israel did not perform a serious risk-assessment analysis and was motivated instead by instant gratification, with disregard to the ramifications. Or, conversely, that Israel is deliberately provoking escalation in the hope that a conflagration with Iran will drag the United States into the conflict, further distancing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu from the debacle of October 7 – a calamity that to this day he has not been held accountable for.

The intensity and speed of unfolding events in the Middle East over the past 10 months is such that while I'm writing on the likelihood and potential of escalation, by the time you read this we may be fully immersed in such a spiraling and sprawling escalatory whirlpool.

This week's assassinations raise three fundamental questions.

First, why didn't Israel employ this months ago instead of launching a full-scale invasion of Gaza and dumping 2,000-pound (907-kilogram) bombs and decimating neighborhoods, before a hostage deal was negotiated. If Israel can perform a precise, impeccable, intelligence-driven operation 2,000 kilometers (1,240 miles) away, why bomb Gaza for 10 full months?

Second, what did it achieve in terms of changing the equation and dynamics, given that Israel has no plan or political framework for Gaza whatsoever?

Third, was escalation considered an inevitability, and is Israel prepared for it or could benefit from it?

Devout readers will recall that in June I introduced you to a term called ipcha mistabra. There are the familiar concepts of expressing a "contrarian view," whether ad hoc or just for spite. And there's the accompanying idea of "thinking outside the box," which we've all encountered. But then there's a bigger, broader idea: ipcha mistabra – an Aramaic term that literally means "the opposite is evident." In intelligence and planning circles, there are ipcha mistabra divisions endowed with the task of thinking the opposite of what conventional wisdom dictates and analyzing the other side's unpredictable options in a way that makes the opposite, counterintuitive notion evident.

Now let's think slightly deeper and beyond the instinctive gratification over the two assassinations in Beirut and Tehran. What could they tangibly achieve and what are their possible ramifications? Where was the ipcha mistabra on Iran?

Israel could have killed Haniyeh anywhere in the Middle East, yet deliberately chose to do so in Iran during the inauguration. That's not daring – that's the very definition of provocative.

"This attack was a huge slap in the face for Iran's status in the region," Ali Akbar Behmanesh, a prominent politician in new President Masoud Pezeshkian's party, told The New York Times. "It humiliated our country and undermined our entire security apparatus, showed that we have serious holes in intelligence."

If the idea was to expose Iran's vulnerabilities, the depth of penetration to its intelligence and to humiliate the Islamic regime, mission accomplished. That's a good thing, right? Sure, but there's a "but" here.

Israel left Iran no choice but to retaliate, the scope of which remains the big question mark. But Israel also outsourced "escalation dominance" by handing to Iran to decision over whether to escalate. That's a legitimate course of policy – except that Iran may not see it that way.

Israel had two luminous tactical successes. Iran will concede that. But viewed from Tehran, Israel is in a position of strategic inferiority, surrounded by Iranian proxies, condemned throughout the world, isolated with no geopolitical plan. In this context, Iran will have to make a decision on whether it can really control escalation following a retaliation.

The worst case scenario for Iran is an escalation that somehow involves the Americans. Iran's prize asset, its "military nuclear threshold" status, could be undermined in such an event if the United States, even reluctantly, is dragged into a conflict and attacks the Iranians.

This is where it gets interesting. Who has no interest in such an escalation? The United States, whose makeshift Middle East policy will now have to be revisited, and Iran, which clearly prefers attrition and low intensity.

Who does have a vested interest in an expanded war? Mr. Netanyahu. Which is why the conventional wisdom in Washington over the last 36 hours is that Israel carried out the Haniyeh assassination deliberately in Iran and intentionally on that day.

How all this plays out is purely speculative at this point. One thing is clear, though: the idea to assassinate Haniyeh, however justified, has "escalation" written all over it.

 

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