Israel

[mdmost 43846]

27 minutes ago, 4th&Five said:

 

And if that is true and if Bibi capitulates, that's when you freeze all military aid to Israel and state exactly why you are doing this. You had a brokered deal that Bibi agreed to and he only backed out because of Trump. But I bet Bibi knows which way the winds are blowing. 

[David Dennison 19439]

17 minutes ago, mdmost said:

And if that is true and if Bibi capitulates, that's when you freeze all military aid to Israel and state exactly why you are doing this. You had a brokered deal that Bibi agreed to and he only backed out because of Trump. But I bet Bibi knows which way the winds are blowing. 

I doubt very seriously we'll cut Israel off even if this is the case.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I doubt very seriously we'll cut Israel off even if this is the case.

You don't cut off Israel. You go after Netanyahu, which would be good for Israel. You do that by squeezing until he squeals. He already cried like a little bitch in front of Congress just from the mere thought of reduced military aid. He is desperate and can be controlled.

Regardless of how either of us think we should respond, If this is real it absolutely cannot be allowed.

Edited August 20 by Brian Fantana

[Chuckie Finster 22978]

You don't cut off Israel. You go after Netanyahu, which would be good for Israel. You do that by squeezing until he squeals. He already cried like a little bitch in front of Congress just from the mere thought of reduced military aid. He is desperate and can be controlled.
Regardless of how either of us think we should respond, If this is real it absolutely cannot be allowed.

I do think you might be on to something here. Too many people (by Bibi’s design) view Israel and Bibi as one in the same.

If the US can deftly communicate a “we are trying to help Israel, but one man is standing in the way” then that could greatly shift the narrative, both here and abroad, positively towards resolution.

[bolverk 30228]

56 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You don't cut off Israel. You go after Netanyahu, which would be good for Israel. You do that by squeezing until he squeals. He already cried like a little bitch in front of Congress just from the mere thought of reduced military aid. He is desperate and can be controlled.

Regardless of how either of us think we should respond, If this is real it absolutely cannot be allowed.

 

13 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I do think you might be on to something here. Too many people (by Bibi’s design) view Israel and Bibi as one in the same.

If the US can deftly communicate a “we are trying to help Israel, but one man is standing in the way” then that could greatly shift the narrative, both here and abroad, positively towards resolution.

Absolutely. It's Netanyahu and the far-right assholes he's in bed with who are the obstacles from the Israeli side. Since they are the ones we (the US) have any real potential leverage with, they're the ones we need to lean on to get a deal done. I posted it in the worldwide protest thread over in the Daily Texan because there were massive protests in Tel Aviv over the weekend, but there's mention of a poll in a clip that 56% of Israelis want the war to end and a ceasefire signed right now to bring the 100+ hostages home.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20834]

27 minutes ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I do think you might be on to something here. Too many people (by Bibi’s design) view Israel and Bibi as one in the same.

If the US can deftly communicate a “we are trying to help Israel, but one man is standing in the way” then that could greatly shift the narrative, both here and abroad, positively towards resolution.

Two men are standing in the way

[Tuco 5093]

 If the story has legs, the Israelis will take care of Bibi.  I don't think killing a peace deal that returns hostages bodes well for his future.  That may be why the story is out there in the first place: put pressure on Bibi to make sure he doesn't stand in the way. 

[Brian Fantana 6856]

2 minutes ago, Tuco said:

 If the story has legs, the Israelis will take care of Bibi.  I don't think killing a peace deal that returns hostages bodes well for his future.  That may be why the story is out there in the first place: put pressure on Bibi to make sure he doesn't stand in the way. 

They'll take care of him next election cycle regardless. As I said in the other thread, as long as he keeps the American money flowing, he can keep himself out of the ringer. He's already likely going to prison after he gets voted out anyway.

[Tuco 5093]

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

They'll take care of him next election cycle regardless. As I said in the other thread, as long as he keeps the American money flowing, he can keep himself out of the ringer. He's already likely going to prison after he gets voted out anyway.

I don't follow Israeli politics that closely, but I assume the next cycle can be accelerated with a no confidence vote.

I certainly support cutting off all military aid to Israel.

But, either way the mechanics are the same: enough Israelis need to be pissed to call for an election.  Whether that's because Bibi is blocking a peace deal (and the release of hostages) because of Trump or because the money is cutoff, it's the same challenges. 

[GopherRock 1773]

Unfortunately, Bibi has a rock solid majority in the Knesset, so unless his coalition completely collapses, he's the PM until October 2026.

[statsman 5674]

The Israeli government is reported (by newspapers) to be amenable to a proposed cease fire deal. Hamas walked away from the table and sent a suicide bomber to blow up (thankfully, just himself) in Tel Aviv, as a message. 

[InkaUtexas 26793]

2 hours ago, GopherRock said:

Unfortunately, Bibi has a rock solid majority in the Knesset, so unless his coalition completely collapses, he's the PM until October 2026.

Would be cool to sanction them, no US travel, etc. They would turn on him.

[Dnaguy 12569]

American Jews are too important for the democratic coalition.

Biden isn’t going to rock the boat this close to an election.

And say what you will, rank and file American Jews equate Israel and Jews as the same thing. An attack on Israel is an attack on all Jews. Whether it’s Hamas or American foreign policy.

Even for a largely successful and educated bloc, nuance doesn’t really work bc identity and emotion is wrapped into it.

The part that pisses me off is that Bibi uses this / knows this. 
In addition, the ‘center’ of Israeli politics is firmly on the right.

Since the late 90’s Israel has been on a steady rightward track that hasn’t really stopped.

If Bibi cuts a deal, his coalition falls as his nutty fanatics in his ruling coalition will bail. If he’s not in power, he’ll go to jail.

There is not way off his ride unless he ‘wins’ the war. You can’t negotiate with someone who has no motive to concede anything. And like I said earlier, we aren’t going to take away guns or $ so he can keep doing his thing hoping to ‘win’ or just outlast the worlds attention until the next crisis.

[chainsaw 10240]

Jews are probably the most "blue no matter who" voting bloc in the US, and there aren't enough of them in swing states for a shift in Biden's Israel policy to make any electoral difference. The vast majority of Zionists are evangelicals, almost all of whom are MAGA.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

It's not like people want Joe Biden to delete Israel from the map. Putting pressure on Bibi to act like less of a piece of shit isn't harming Israel nor will it cost Harris any votes.

[Tuco 5093]

57 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

American Jews are too important for the democratic coalition.

 

39 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Jews are probably the most "blue no matter who" voting bloc in the US, and there aren't enough of them in swing states for a shift in Biden's Israel policy to make any electoral difference. The vast majority of Zionists are evangelicals, almost all of whom are MAGA.

So, looking at the percentages, Jewish population is 2.17% of the American population.  In Pennsylvania, it is 3.3% of the population.  WI: 0.6%.  MI: 0.9%.  AZ: 1.7%.  NV: 2.6%.  

The latest poll I could find was from April.  

Jews break 57% Dem, 27% Ind, 14% Rep.

58% had a favorable opinion of Biden, compared to 23% for Trump and 29% for Netanyahu.  The Democrats trailed Biden by 5 points, so I imagine Kamala may have a lower percentage.

While 81% said they are either "very attached" or "somewhat attached" to Israel, only 25% listed Israel as one of their top two issues, behind "the future of democracy" (46%), abortion (30%), and "inflation and economy"(26%).  It would be interesting to see the Venn diagram between those how had Israel higher than abortion or future of democracy, but preferred Biden over Trump.  I would imagine it's a thin slice. 

I think the bigger concern would be how Harris deals with the protestors.  Antisemitism is a concern with 94% of the respondents.  Even though it's slightly less when considering college campuses (91%), the Harris team definitely will need to vet anyone before having a sit down meeting.  It would be pretty bad to have a picture of some dipshit with antisemitic sign attached to a story of Harris meeting with their group.    

 

 

 

 

 

[Dnaguy 12569]

11 minutes ago, Tuco said:

 

So, looking at the percentages, Jewish population is 2.17% of the American population.  In Pennsylvania, it is 3.3% of the population.  WI: 0.6%.  MI: 0.9%.  AZ: 1.7%.  NV: 2.6%.  

The latest poll I could find was from April.  

Jews break 57% Dem, 27% Ind, 14% Rep.

58% had a favorable opinion of Biden, compared to 23% for Trump and 29% for Netanyahu.  The Democrats trailed Biden by 5 points, so I imagine Kamala may have a lower percentage.

While 81% said they are either "very attached" or "somewhat attached" to Israel, only 25% listed Israel as one of their top two issues, behind "the future of democracy" (46%), abortion (30%), and "inflation and economy"(26%).  It would be interesting to see the Venn diagram between those how had Israel higher than abortion or future of democracy, but preferred Biden over Trump.  I would imagine it's a thin slice. 

I think the bigger concern would be how Harris deals with the protestors.  Antisemitism is a concern with 94% of the respondents.  Even though it's slightly less when considering college campuses (91%), the Harris team definitely will need to vet anyone before having a sit down meeting.  It would be pretty bad to have a picture of some dipshit with antisemitic sign attached to a story of Harris meeting with their group.    

 

 

 

 

 

 

But seriously. 
This is a solid post.

Thanks.

[PRONG HORN 3219]

 

[PRONG HORN 3219]

 

 

UN omits Oct 7 victims from exhibit for fatalities of terror.

 

https://www.jpost.com/international/islamic-terrorism/article-815598

 

 

[InkaUtexas 26793]

2 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

UN omits Oct 7 victims from exhibit for fatalities of terror.

 

https://www.jpost.com/international/islamic-terrorism/article-815598

 

 

Got a link to the exhibit? I searched for it and did not see one on the UN site. I did see the panel they are going to tell the stories of. Not 1 palestinian presenting. Nor Sudanese, Afghans, Burmese, Colombians, the list goes on. Nor are they all victims from last year.

Maybe Israel should not be so sensitive. Oh Noes, we did not get mentioned, we are leaving.

Meanwhile, don't remember Palestinians bitching about being left out. Oh, and they should be at the forefront for all the other days. Here is a list. I know you will keep us posted and be a diligent and respectful viewer.

Related observances

• International Day for the Prevention of Violent Extremism as and when Conducive to Terrorism (12 February)
• International Day Commemorating the Victims of Acts of Violence Based on Religion or Belief (22 August)
• International Day of Peace (21 September)
• Human Rights Day (10 December)

[Hank Kingsley 21597]

 

 

[Rex Kramer 1522]

17 hours ago, statsman said:

The Israeli government is reported (by newspapers) to be amenable to a proposed cease fire deal. Hamas walked away from the table and sent a suicide bomber to blow up (thankfully, just himself) in Tel Aviv, as a message. 

Is this real?  Current?  Do you have a link?

Assuming the answers above are yes, is this not worthy of comment?

[statsman 5674]

1 minute ago, Rex Kramer said:

Is this real?  Current?  Do you have a link?

Assuming the answers above are yes, is this not worthy of comment?

Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing attempt in Tel Aviv, threatening to open a violent new chapter of the conflict
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-attempted-suicide-bombing-as-cease-fire-diplomacy-resumes-f13b4f0f?st=m23vuuqld1jhi0n&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

[Rex Kramer 1522]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing attempt in Tel Aviv, threatening to open a violent new chapter of the conflict
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/hamas-claims-attempted-suicide-bombing-as-cease-fire-diplomacy-resumes-f13b4f0f?st=m23vuuqld1jhi0n&reflink=share_mobilewebshare

Thank you. Hard to deal with these people. It could’ve been a one-off rogue, but Hamas claims responsibility for it.  How stupid do you have to be?

I know Bibi detractors will dismiss this based on the power dynamic between Israel and run-of-the-mill Palestinians / Hamas operatives. And that has merit. Still, a cease fire amidst suicide bombings (and other Hamas bullshit) is tough. 

[David Dennison 19439]

4 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

 

UN omits Oct 7 victims from exhibit for fatalities of terror.

 

https://www.jpost.com/international/islamic-terrorism/article-815598

 

 

Says the guy representing Netanyahu's government.

 

[chainsaw 10240]

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israeli-hostages-reportedly-killed-by-fire-started-by-idf-operation-b7yz8zki

Quote

Four Israeli hostages whose dead bodies were recovered from Gaza this week suffocated to death after the IDF started a fire in their vicinity, Hebrew language media has reported.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

[statsman 5674]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/israeli-hostages-reportedly-killed-by-fire-started-by-idf-operation-b7yz8zki

 

So, their deaths are the fault of Hamas, right?

[bolverk 30228]

I suppose you're going to blame Hamas for the IDF rounding up non-combattant civilian Palestinians and forcing them to act as human shields, which is a clear violation of international law. Just throw it on the pile of war crimes being investigated.

This is how you lose any claim to a moral high ground, which one would think is hard to do when you're fighting a despised terrorist organization.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

https://archive.is/GnCb1

At first it's hard to recognize them. They're usually wearing Israeli army uniforms, many of them are in their 20s, and they're always with Israeli soldiers of various ranks.

But if you look more closely, you see that most of them are wearing sneakers, not army boots. And their hands are cuffed behind their backs and their faces are full of fear. The soldiers call each of them a shawish, an obscure Arabic word of Turkish origin meaning sergeant.

Random Palestinians have been used by Israeli army units in the Gaza Strip for one purpose: to serve as human shields for soldiers during operations.

"Our lives are more important than their lives," soldiers were told. The thinking is that it's better for the Israeli soldiers to remain alive and for the shawishim to be the ones blown up by an explosive device.

This description is one of many obtained by Haaretz, some from combat soldiers, others from commanders. The picture that emerges: In recent months, Israeli soldiers have used human shields in this way all over Gaza; even the chief of staff's office knows.

Soldiers choose Gazans for the missions and bring them to the brigades and battalions operating in the Strip. "There is pride in it," said a source who took part in some of the "locating" work.

"The senior ranks know about it," the source said. The army has played innocent despite footage shown on Al Jazeera about two months ago. Israeli soldiers can be seen dressing Palestinian detainees in uniforms and flak jackets, putting cameras on them and sending them into badly damaged houses and tunnel entrances with their hands bound by plastic ties.

The Americans are furious, though Vedant Patel, a State Department spokesman, has said that the Israel Defense Forces is investigating the incidents and that the evidence in the videos does not reflect the IDF's values and violates rules and regulations.

"When I saw the report from Al Jazeera, I said: 'Ah, yes, it's true,'" a combat soldier in a conscript IDF brigade who took part in the use of Gazans as human shields told Haaretz. "And then I saw the IDF's response, which totally doesn't reflect reality. It's done with the knowledge of the brigade commander, at the least."

(Some of the soldiers' comments in this article have also been told to the nongovernmental organization Breaking the Silence.)

The soldier said that in the IDF, "they know that it's not a one-time incident of a young and stupid company commander who decides on his own to take somebody."

There is also evidence that in some cases, minors or the elderly are used. "There were times when really old people were made to go into houses," one combat soldier said. If the Palestinian knows Hebrew, that's an advantage for the IDF; when Gazans are used in buildings and tunnels, they need to report to the forces outside.

As one soldier put it, Palestinians are told: "Do one mission of ... a [tunnel] shaft and you're free."

Still, even though some Palestinians are required to remain with a unit "only" for 24 hours, others wind up staying for two days or even a week. "When you're inside this thing, you don't know how to say what's okay," the soldier said. "What's certain is that it's a horrible feeling."

For its part, the IDF Spokesperson's Unit said: "IDF instructions and orders prohibit the use of Gazan civilians caught in the field for military missions that pose a deliberate risk to their lives. The IDF's instructions and orders on the subject have been made clear to the forces. Upon receipt of the request, the allegations were forwarded to the relevant authorities for review."

The incidents described to Haaretz occurred in different parts of Gaza, but they are all very similar – as the story of a combat soldier who spent months there reveals. One day, he and his comrades arrived at the brigade commander's building.

The soldier saw someone he didn't recognize walking back and forth, accompanied by soldiers who were guarding him. "He was wearing a uniform without a [flak jacket] and with sports shoes … They asked us to accompany him if he needed to go to the bathroom, and to make sure he had food."

The soldier said he didn't understand what was going on at this stage; he and his fellow soldiers wondered if the Palestinian was a prisoner now collaborating with the IDF.

But the next day, the troops needed to inspect a tunnel, and, viewing a screen, soldiers realized that the Palestinian had been sent inside the tunnel wearing an IDF uniform. His hands were tied behind his back and a camera was attached to his body.

"We heard very deep breaths; it sounded like he was a little afraid," said a soldier who viewed footage of this incident. "They simply sent him in and he mapped it out for the commanders, with the brigade commander watching on the outside."

One soldier said that when soldiers there expressed concerns, they were told that "the idea in general was that if the house was booby-trapped, or if there was an ambush or terrorists were in the area, they would kill [the Palestinian who was sent in] and not the soldiers. That was also the first time the commanders said the word 'shawish.'"

Another soldier in that unit said that this happened time after time; he said that in every operation, a human shield would be sent out 10 minutes before everyone else; then came the wait for the brigade commander.

"People began to ask questions, very quickly a mess began about this procedure," one soldier said. "Some argued that they weren't willing to carry out operations if it included a Gazan who was forced to sacrifice himself. Of course, there were those who supported it, but at least with us there were just a few of them, mostly the commanders who were afraid to deal with the more senior commanders."

In one case, an Israeli soldier who took part in a raid on a building said one of the units had a Gazan dressed in white overalls. As part of an attempt to make armed Palestinians inside the building come out, the Gazan was sent there as a kind of mediator. But the attempt failed and the armed men shot the man.

When no doubt exists
Palestinians were already used as human shields in 2002's Operation Defensive Shield in the West Bank during the second intifada. This was often known as "the neighbor procedure" – soldiers fearing booby traps sent Palestinians into buildings; this was also done in the search for wanted men.

Rights groups then petitioned the Supreme Court, serving as the High Court of Justice, which ruled in 2005 that the procedure was illegal and violated international law. The IDF chief of staff at the time, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, ordered the military to thoroughly enforce the court's ruling.

But in recent months the IDF has preferred not to comment officially on the matter, even though it was reportedly discussed by the most senior officers. Sources say that IDF Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi is among the senior officers aware of the use of Gazans as human shields.

"The head of Southern Command, Maj. Gen. Yaron Finkelman, knows too," a source at Southern Command says. "In every meeting where this issue was raised, there were commanders who warned about the ethical and legal implications if the matter was exposed publicly. There were officers who asked that the meeting be halted so that they would be allowed to leave."

A soldier in a conscript army brigade added: "About five months ago, two Palestinians were brought to us. One was 20 and the other was 16. We were told: 'Use them, they're Gazans, use them as human shields.'"

According to this soldier, that day, soldiers in the unit began to ask questions about this use of civilians as human shields; they also wanted to know who gave the order.

According to the soldier, "They tried to say something about October 7, not something concrete. One person said: 'Don't beat them too much because we need them to open the locations'" where troops need to enter, such as buildings and tunnels.

This order was just one that the soldiers received. For example, they were also required to keep the Gazans handcuffed, and to ensure that the Gazans didn't escape or enter the rooms and floors where the commanders were. The Gazans were given combat rations and water.

Many soldiers felt uncomfortable about this, demanded answers and even shouted, said a person who was near one of the Gazans. "Most of them realized there was a problematic incident here, and it was hard for them to process," he said.

He added: "One of the commanders turned to one of the combat soldiers who tried to receive answers and told him: 'You don't agree that the lives of your friends are much more important than their lives? And isn't it better that our friends will live and not be blown up by an explosive device, and that they get blown up by an explosive device?"

This soldier said that the commander's comment was made with such aggressiveness that it was clear that there was little room for the troops to express doubts.

One soldier said that when he and his colleagues asked "why," they were told about the dogs of the Oketz canine unit. Dogs were getting killed or wounded when they were sent in to locate explosives or attack the enemy. Or after their experience, the dogs had to be discharged because their operational senses had deteriorated.

A more senior official confirmed this claim, though some soldiers said they thought this was just an excuse to soothe consciences.

An irrelevant law
Either way, many soldiers still have harsh feelings. "You keep quiet and try to convince yourself, 'Yalla, okay, let's use them.' They tried to explain it rationally, but in the end a 16-year-old kid is sitting there handcuffed inside the house with his eyes covered," a person who was there said.

"The soldiers needed to help him go to the bathroom or feed him. It wasn't an incident that begins and ends with his entering the houses and tunnels or the blowing up of buildings. There's the time you spent with these same people in the house for a few days."

After two or three days in which a teenager was used as a human shield by soldiers, they asked to speak with the battalion commander and told him they no longer wished to take part. Some also raised doubts about another issue – the need for the order to burn buildings after the buildings were searched.

The term "international law" came up a number of times, but the battalion commander reportedly had one response to all the soldiers' questions: "A soldier doesn't need to take an interest in the laws of war. You need to think about the IDF's values and act according to the IDF's values, not the laws of war."

The next day the teenager was released. He was taken to a checkpoint and told to walk south. "Then we finally realized that these weren't really terrorists but civilians who were taken especially for these operations," the soldier said.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-21/ty-article/.premium/netanyahus-war-goal-is-not-the-hostages-return-its-the-occupation-of-gaza/00000191-7477-d7fc-ab93-f67774cb0000

Quote

Netanyahu's War Goal Is Not the Hostages' Return. It's the Occupation of Gaza

 

[fuggled 576]

7 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Got a link to the exhibit? I searched for it and did not see one on the UN site. I did see the panel they are going to tell the stories of. Not 1 palestinian presenting. Nor Sudanese, Afghans, Burmese, Colombians, the list goes on. Nor are they all victims from last year.

Maybe Israel should not be so sensitive. Oh Noes, we did not get mentioned, we are leaving.

Meanwhile, don't remember Palestinians bitching about being left out. Oh, and they should be at the forefront for all the other days. Here is a list. I know you will keep us posted and be a diligent and respectful viewer.

Related observances

• International Day for the Prevention of Violent Extremism as and when Conducive to Terrorism (12 February)
• International Day Commemorating the Victims of Acts of Violence Based on Religion or Belief (22 August)
• International Day of Peace (21 September)
• Human Rights Day (10 December)

Here's a summary of what's going on at the UN (https://www.un.org/en/un-chronicle/voices-peace-crucial-role-victims-terrorism-peace-advocates-and-educators)

So first, this year's commemoration has a theme focused on peace advocates and educators.  It doesn't sound like the event was designed around capturing every single instance of terrorism in the world.

Quote

This year’s seventh commemoration of the International Day will focus on "Voices for Peace: Victims of Terrorism as Peace Advocates and Educators", emphasizing the pivotal role of victims and survivors as agents of change and peace educators. The International Day will pay tribute to the efforts of victims and survivors to transform their personal tragedies into collective strengths, and to foster dialogue and understanding among diverse communities. These efforts are critical components of peaceful and open societies.

Second, the exhibit in that video is called the the "Memories" exhibition.  It was launched in 2022 and highlights stories of 22 victims.  It predates Oct 7th and, again, wasn't intended to chronicle every act of terrorism.  The most recent victim in the exhibit is from 2019.

[chainsaw 10240]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/story/dnc-2024-palestine-israel

Quote

A Palestinian American’s Place Under the Democrats’ Big Tent?

Though the Uncommitted movement is lobbying to get a Palestinian American on the main stage, the Harris campaign has not yet approved one. Will there be a change before Thursday—and does the Democratic party want that?

 

At some point during the first evening of the Democratic National Convention, somewhere between the land acknowledgements and the Jesse Jackson tribute, it occurred to me how relatively few white people I was seeing on the program. They were there, of course, and by the end of the night, white speakers seemed, if not a majority, then at least a plurality. I don’t know if that first day looked like America, but it certainly looked like what people who use the phrase “look like America” imagine the country to be. A wave of edgy jokes flooded my various group chats. I was happy to contribute, but the truth is I’m a lover not a fighter, and thus sincerely believe in the meaning of the symbolic as something beyond cynical political manipulation. In the case of the DNC, the symbols communicated the breadth of the Democratic Party’s coalition, as well as its limits. Perhaps that’s why I’ve spent the past two days sweating the one major omission of the party that claims diversity as its strength.

 

The host city for the DNC is Chicago, whose metro area is home to more Palestinian Americans than anywhere else in the country. But you would not know this looking at that stage. Despite the appeals of Palestinian American delegates and activists, no Palestinian American is scheduled to address the convention from the main stage. I suspect this is because of what such a speaker might feel compelled to say. In response to the massacre perpetrated by Hamas last October, the state of Israel has killed some 40,000 Palestinian people. The intention behind this carnage has been declared openly. “We are fighting human animals,” Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant has said. “And we are acting accordingly.” Acting accordingly has meant the erasing of roughly two percent of the entire population of the Gaza Strip, a fact not to be mourned since, according to Israeli President Isaac Herzog, “There are no innocent civilians in Gaza.”

 

The most destructive bombs that have actualized this rhetoric of extermination are being furnished by America, and more specifically, by the head of the Democratic party. In February, as President Joe Biden sought to seal the nomination from that party, activists in Michigan rallied registering voters in the state to check “uncommitted” as a protest against the Biden administration’s backing of the war. The campaign garnered 13 percent of the vote and quickly spread to other states. By Democratic party rules, this entitled the Uncommitted movement to 29 delegates, who are here in Chicago to press their case against what has been labeled, convincingly I might add, a genocide.

On Tuesday, the Uncommitted co-founders Abbas Alawieh and Layla Elabed hosted a group of doctors who’d been to Gaza to speak to a group of reporters on what they saw. Alawieh opened on an optimistic note. “Vice President Harris is engaging with us on this issue,” he told assembled press. “We do view that as a step in the right direction.” But he noted that their request for a “Palestinian voice” to take the stage had not yet received a “yes.” As important as this request was, it was also secondary to the group’s ultimate aim: “Stop sending bombs,” Alawieh said.

The assembled doctors were charged with making the import of these bombs apparent. Their testimony was bracing. They spoke of a campaign that was “destroying life and everything needed to sustain it,” of “entire families exterminated.” Dr. Tammy Abughnaim, a Chicagoan, said that when she was practicing in Gaza in March, she was hopeful for a quick end. “I remember thinking this will be over soon. This has to be over soon,” she said. Instead, conditions had only gotten worse. “Every single child in the Gaza strip is either undernourished or malnourished. Every single child is in need of psychological care that they will not get for a long time.”

Dr. Ahmad Yousaf, a pediatrician who did shifts in Al Aqsa hospital in Gaza, told us about his first day in the trauma bay. “We could hear the bombs and we knew the people would come in pieces,” he said. He described a woman brought in with burns over 70 percent of her body, “a death sentence in a place with no gauze and no water.” And then the doctors made a discovery—the woman was pregnant. He imagined this “pregnant woman sitting in her home until a bomb dropped on her head.” After that, he said, “every day she lived, until the day she died, she was in pain.”

I saw then that Alawieh and Elabed were both openly weeping—as were a number of doctors. I took this as a testament to the intimacy of the violence being visited upon Gaza and now spreading out into the West Bank. Elabed’s mother’s family is from Beit Ur, a village on the West Bank, where conditions have only worsened since the onset of war. “When I talk to my cousins and family members, they’re just trying to survive. They don’t have the freedom of movement,” she told me. “They’re trying to keep their heads down.”

Alawieh’s family is from South Lebanon, and one of his defining childhood memories is the bombs dropped during the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah. For most of the presser he and Elabed projected a diplomatic open posture toward a party which seemed to hold them, and their community, at arm’s length. But by the end, during the Q&A with reporters, the pain broke through. “President Biden, you are lying to us,” Abbas said. “You are lying when you say you are working for a ceasefire, but you are sending more and more bombs that are killing babies…The question is to president Biden, do you want your final act to be sending more bombs to blow more children up? Is that what you want your final act to be?”

This is a formulation that depends on seeing Palestinians, and Palestinian life, with the same clarity as all other human life. One way this clarity and equality is expressed in our society is through our arts, our media, our public rituals—rituals like national political conventions. Maybe more than in any other year, this DNC has urged its various constituencies to highlight their identities and the collective pain that animates them. Racism, forced birth, land theft. It has been an exhibition of what the Palestinian scholar Edward Said called “the permission to narrate,” and it is that permission that Palestinian Americans have been denied. They have heard their names mentioned fleetingly by a handful of speakers but have not been granted the right to speak their names themselves. Perhaps that is for fear of what else a Palestinian American speaker might name. I cannot say that fear is unwarranted.

Last summer I spent ten days traveling the lands under Israeli rule. What I saw was hauntingly familiar. For as sure as my ancestors were born into a country where none of them was the equal of any white man, Israel is a state where no Palestinian is ever the equal of any Jewish person. In Israel itself, I met with Palestinians who were nominally empowered, with the right to vote. But unlike their Jewish countrymen, these Palestinians could not pass on their citizenship to spouses and children. Moreover, discrimination against them was perfectly legal. Frequently they were the subject of outright racism, as when Netanyahu warned his country during the 2016 election that “the right-wing government is in danger. Arab voters are heading to the polling stations in droves.”

Palestinians in the occupied West Bank are packed onto an archipelago of land. There they have enjoyed local elections through the Palestinian Authority. But that authority is still subordinate to Israeli rule, which Palestinians can neither vote for or against. Meanwhile, their neighbors, Israeli settlers, enjoy the full benefits of Israeli citizenship. And then there is Gaza, which had alarmed human rights advocates and public-health officials well before last October. For 17 years, the people of Gaza have been trapped by a blockade that extends across air, sea, and land. Gaza is commonly referred to as the largest open-air prison in the world, and it is here that so many American bombs have been dropped.

Israel and its defenders often claim that it is the “only democracy in the Middle East.” But what I saw was an ethnocracy, where half the people are first-class citizens, and the other half are something less. And this is a system sponsored and endorsed by the United States of America. The endorsement is not contradictory. For most of its history, America too was an ethnocracy in democratic clothing. The ostensible triumph over that old system, which we call Jim Crow, is one of the most uplifting stories America tells itself, one that has been repeatedly invoked at the DNC. How odd I find it that a people, presently brutalized by a similar system, whose relatives are being erased by that system’s wanton violence, are also being erased from the stage.

As of Tuesday night, the Uncommitted delegates were still hopeful. Alawieh told me they’d managed to recruit a total of 210 delegates to the cause of ceasefire. The energy from their movement was palpable. In McCormick Place and the United Center, it was relatively common to see people in keffiyehs emblazoned with the tag “Democrats for Palestinian Rights,” and they’d be surrounded by other curious convention-goers or media. When we last spoke, Alawieh was still hopeful that one of the speakers they’d submitted would be approved. “We haven’t gotten a no, yet.” The DNC confirmed to me there is not yet a no, but there is not yet a yes—I was told that “there was no update.”

As of Day 3 of the DNC, the Palestinian permission to narrate was still under consideration.

 

[PRONG HORN 3219]

 

 

Defund Israel Now seems legit

 

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

 

[Tuco 5093]

So, this my longcat post is about protestors and politics.  

I don’t really want to get into the meat of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  It is just a fucking beating.  My main conclusion which is that an occupying army is bombing civilians - either through intent or apathy - with weapons that I help pay for. We could get into the nitty gritty on the historical rationalizations for this from 5000 years ago or 80 years ago or last year.  I don’t believe it will change my conclusion.  I also recognize I am unlikely to move anybody off their conclusions. 

So, back to protestors and politics: people who engage in protests are fundamentally different than people who engage in politics.  Their core belief is that they will not achieve their goals in the current political landscape.  They can only effect policy changes by working outside the system.  First and foremost is bringing attention to their cause, second is to grow the cause into a movement, third is to have that movement interfere with goals of people who actually have the power to change things - businesses, politicians, etc..  I think most people can understand this, given the right context.  In places like Iran, nobody is going to effect change the clerics disagree with within the political system.  It’s pointless.  The Iranian protestors need to interfere with commerce or stability enough to drive change.  It’s not a big leap that protestors in America feel the political system is theater run by the monied elite. On the issue of Israeli support, it is understandable to conclude that neither political party is interested in standing up to Israel, although I get that a Republican administration will cheer while a Democratic one will work quietly to push back.  

People who engage primarily in politics believe that important change can be manifested through politics.  They may show up to protests, but they understand the short term goals at the ballot box are more important.  

This causes conflict between the political folks and the protestors.  Always has.  Go read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.”  The opening sentence is “My Dear Fellow Clergymen:While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities ‘unwise and untimely.’ “  Just one more quote…”Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.… The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”  (That letter so good.) Protestors have always been counseled to have patience, to look at the big picture.  And they have always ignored it.  It’s just not in line with their core belief. 

To be clear, I am not trying to convince anyone that the protestors are right to take this approach in this situation and at this time.  I just tire of people calling them stupid.  They understand what they are doing.  They are following the playbook - trying to create a crisis to drive negotiation.  And, in this particular cause, time is a huge factor.  This isn’t something they can wait six months on.  

And then you have Abbas Alawieh, the unofficial spokesperson for the uncommitted delegates.  He believes in politics.  He is a former Congressional Chief of Staff for Cori Bush, who just got primaried in part because of the money from AIPAC.  He just got turned down to have a Palestinian speaking slot at the DNC. Is his way the right way to effect change? 

Personally, I hope the protestors stay within their delegated spaces and don’t cause to much shit.  At the level they are currently, I think they actual provide a left-wing bookend to Harris’s approach.  (In other words, for her to look moderate, there needs to be someone to the left of her.) But I continue to fear that coverage showing cops in riot gear will hurt Harris’s chances.  I still believe in politics.  I understand why others do not, particularly on this issue. 

[Tuco 5093]

Response to Gopher Rock: 

 

All of the speakers so far the DNC are advocating for the very thing the protestors are calling for. 

I haven't had a chance to type out all my thoughts on Walz's speech last night, but after it was over, it took me an hour and a half to calm down enough to go to sleep.   

I haven't heard all the speakers saying we should immediately stop funding Israel.  It's one thing to say we should immediately work to a ceasefire.  It's another to say what a more concrete, immediate policy is to so.  

(And quoting from a different thread is hard for me, apparently.) 

Edited August 22 by Tuco

[chainsaw 10240]

37 minutes ago, Tuco said:

Is his way the right way to effect change? 

I think his way is the most effective option. He has tried tirelessly to work within the DNC's system. All they are asking for is an equal opportunity to share the lived experience of doctors who are treating suffering children in Gaza. It would even be a vetted speech.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

35 minutes ago, Tuco said:

So, this my longcat post is about protestors and politics.  

I don’t really want to get into the meat of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.  It is just a fucking beating.  My main conclusion which is that an occupying army is bombing civilians - either through intent or apathy - with weapons that I help pay for. We could get into the nitty gritty on the historical rationalizations for this from 5000 years ago or 80 years ago or last year.  I don’t believe it will change my conclusion.  I also recognize I am unlikely to move anybody off their conclusions. 

So, back to protestors and politics: people who engage in protests are fundamentally different than people who engage in politics.  Their core belief is that they will not achieve their goals in the current political landscape.  They can only effect policy changes by working outside the system.  First and foremost is bringing attention to their cause, second is to grow the cause into a movement, third is to have that movement interfere with goals of people who actually have the power to change things - businesses, politicians, etc..  I think most people can understand this, given the right context.  In places like Iran, nobody is going to effect change the clerics disagree with within the political system.  It’s pointless.  The Iranian protestors need to interfere with commerce or stability enough to drive change.  It’s not a big leap that protestors in America feel the political system is theater run by the monied elite. On the issue of Israeli support, it is understandable to conclude that neither political party is interested in standing up to Israel, although I get that a Republican administration will cheer while a Democratic one will work quietly to push back.  

People who engage primarily in politics believe that important change can be manifested through politics.  They may show up to protests, but they understand the short term goals at the ballot box are more important.  

This causes conflict between the political folks and the protestors.  Always has.  Go read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.”  The opening sentence is “My Dear Fellow Clergymen:While confined here in the Birmingham city jail, I came across your recent statement calling my present activities ‘unwise and untimely.’ “  Just one more quote…”Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored.… The purpose of our direct action program is to create a situation so crisis packed that it will inevitably open the door to negotiation.”  (That letter so good.) Protestors have always been counseled to have patience, to look at the big picture.  And they have always ignored it.  It’s just not in line with their core belief. 

To be clear, I am not trying to convince anyone that the protestors are right to take this approach in this situation and at this time.  I just tire of people calling them stupid.  They understand what they are doing.  They are following the playbook - trying to create a crisis to drive negotiation.  And, in this particular cause, time is a huge factor.  This isn’t something they can wait six months on.  

And then you have Abbas Alawieh, the unofficial spokesperson for the uncommitted delegates.  He believes in politics.  He is a former Congressional Chief of Staff for Cori Bush, who just got primaried in part because of the money from AIPAC.  He just got turned down to have a Palestinian speaking slot at the DNC. Is his way the right way to effect change? 

Personally, I hope the protestors stay within their delegated spaces and don’t cause to much shit.  At the level they are currently, I think they actual provide a left-wing bookend to Harris’s approach.  (In other words, for her to look moderate, there needs to be someone to the left of her.) But I continue to fear that coverage showing cops in riot gear will hurt Harris’s chances.  I still believe in politics.  I understand why others do not, particularly on this issue. 

I don't even understand what you mean when you say you believe in politics. Everything is politics. Nothing changes without politics. I'm honestly unsure of what you're trying to say here. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't get it.

You're referencing MLK here and you clearly understand his philosophy about protests: They need to be disruptive and make people uncomfortable while also being strictly non-violent. That's the ONLY way any protest is ever effective. And yet, despite this, you finish off by saying you hope that they stay within their designated spaces and are not disruptive.

This is the disconnect I keep hammering on with regard to the discourse around these protests. The rules put in place with regard to when, where, and how protestors can operate are there for one reason only: To diminish the effectiveness and minimize their voice. It is never in the establishment's best interest to make protesting their actions easier.

[Tuco 5093]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I think his way is the most effective option. He has tried tirelessly to work within the DNC's system. All they are asking for is an equal opportunity to share the lived experience of doctors who are treating suffering children in Gaza. It would even be a vetted speech.

I had not heard it was a vetted speech.  It seems that is something they could have sat down with him on and negotiated what he was going to say, rather than just a phone call that said "no."

I think the political way is the better way.  But I say this because I don't think the protests will be effective. It hasn't grown into a movement that is pushing change. I don't think the political version will be drive change as quickly as I would like, but it will do less damage on other fronts.  It's more of a do-no-harm approach. 

We spend a lot of time talking about the mistakes the US had done in its history.  I feel that this is one we are watching in real time and there isn't much that is going to change it. 

[chainsaw 10240]

Just now, Tuco said:

I had not heard it was a vetted speech.  It seems that is something they could have sat down with him on and negotiated what he was going to say, rather than just a phone call that said "no."

I think the political way is the better way.  But I say this because I don't think the protests will be effective. It hasn't grown into a movement that is pushing change. I don't think the political version will be drive change as quickly as I would like, but it will do less damage on other fronts.  It's more of a do-no-harm approach. 

We spend a lot of time talking about the mistakes the US had done in its history.  I feel that this is one we are watching in real time and there isn't much that is going to change it. 

Everything on that stage gets vetted (although there's a rumor that the part of Warnock's powerful sermon recognizing the sanctity of Palestinian life was ad libbed).

Demanding an equal voice is a just and valid thing for Uncommitted to be pushing for. The speech itself would not be a form of protest. The real reason they are being denied equal treatment is AIPAC. The DNC is terrified of AIPAC.

[Tuco 5093]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't even understand what you mean when you say you believe in politics. Everything is politics. Nothing changes without politics. I'm honestly unsure of what you're trying to say here. I'm not trying to be argumentative, I just don't get it.

I mean, are you going to spend your time, effort, money, etc. in working within the political system.  Is your main focus to get people elected.  Are you working on changing platforms and issuing statements by sitting in meetings run by parliamentary procedures.  That's what I mean by politics.  

I get that it's not entirely either or.  Many politicians will attend protests.  Many protestors will attend political meetings.  But it's question of what do you believe will drive progress.  And protestors do not believe the political system will drive changes unless they can cause tension ("good trouble") in the community.

The point of citing LfBJ is to showcase the philosophy behind "direct action."  Only a fool would believe that is the only course of action for everything.  

[Brian Fantana 6856]

Ok cool I get it, thanks.

[naija 2961]

It would be malpractice to trust that any vetted speech would be the only thing said up there.

[Brian Fantana 6856]

6 minutes ago, naija said:

It would be malpractice to trust that any vetted speech would be the only thing said up there.

File this one under exhibit one million of the weirdly aggressively hostile othering that Palestinian people face in Western countries, aka what I was talking about in the DNC thread.

Everyone knows you can't trust "them" is certainly an uplifting message.

[chainsaw 10240]

49 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 

Everyone knows you can't trust "them" is certainly an uplifting message.

And then the DNC wonders how enthusiasm gets deflated among Gen Z and Palestinian voters

[956 Worldwide 35513]

The group pushing for this speaker has very publicly announced that they are “Uncommitted Delegates.” That is, they are not willing to commit to the Democratic nominee and Vice President.  Are you all insane?  Do you know what the convention and all the speeches are for?  On what planet would anyone agree to give space to someone who is uncommitted to the candidate? 
 

 

[chainsaw 10240]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The group pushing for this speaker has very publicly announced that they are “Uncommitted Delegates.” That is, they are not willing to commit to the Democratic nominee and Vice President.  Are you all insane?  Do you know what the convention and all the speeches are for?  On what planet would anyone agree to give space to someone who is uncommitted to the candidate? 
 

 

Why give space to an Uber executive? Why give space to multiple republicans?

[Brian Fantana 6856]

13 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The group pushing for this speaker has very publicly announced that they are “Uncommitted Delegates.” That is, they are not willing to commit to the Democratic nominee and Vice President.  Are you all insane?  Do you know what the convention and all the speeches are for?  On what planet would anyone agree to give space to someone who is uncommitted to the candidate? 
 

 

To be clear I said in the other thread that asking them to endorse is entirely fair and that they should. Yes we know what's going on. You're not the smartest person in the room, relax.

[VivaNaranja 466]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Why give space to an Uber executive? Why give space to multiple republicans?

because they committed to voting for Harris/Walz