Israel

[Brian Fantana 6865]

22 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

OK, where was the genocide? Using the UN's definition. I know you know it. None cited meet genocide as part of US policy, even with exporting training, equipment and morale support.

And I do think Israel is committing genocide. We are not exporting it. We are complicit in giving, not even fucking selling them, the tools.

Playing devil's advocate. It is a term tossed around and when it matters or is taking place, and it is in more places of the world than Palestine, it gets lost. Just like terror. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.

I'm just using the word export as an umbrella term to cover instances in which we are complicit in genocide, terrorism, etc. There are plenty of examples out there and I know you probably know most or all of them.

I don't think quibbling about the definition of genocide is useful at all. We didn't commit genocide in Iraq by the UN definition, but a million fucking people still died. I doubt they care if it was technically genocide or not.

[hpslugga 4097]

10 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm just using the word export as an umbrella term to cover instances in which we are complicit in genocide, terrorism, etc. There are plenty of examples out there and I know you probably know most or all of them.

I don't think quibbling about the definition of genocide is useful at all. We didn't commit genocide in Iraq by the UN definition, but a million fucking people still died. I doubt they care if it was technically genocide or not.

You can sub out “genocide” and use “aggression” as it pertains to Iraq and it’s just as awful, in addition to being more accurate. I mean I would never want to associate myself with a person whose moral values are such that they would look at Iraq and say “well at least it was only aggression and not genocide. I can live with that.”

But you are correct. Quibbling over what defines “genocide” entirely misses the point. It’s a fucking dodge. 

[chainsaw 10289]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor

[InkaUtexas 26869]

Agree to the above posts. Not making arguments for any of these events. They all sucked.

 

[WhatTheBuck 28929]

8 hours ago, Keef said:

I have no idea why we went to Iraq.

Mainly to get George W. Bush re-elected. There were other reasons. There were various factions with varying motivations. There were GOP hawks who thought Bush (41) should’ve invaded and removed Saddam Hussein after freeing Kuwait in the first Gulf War. Dick Cheney wanted to remove Saddam because that would allow us to lift sanctions on Iraqi oil which would help global energy markets (and his cronies at Halliburton). The military wanted a more target rich environment than Afghanistan because it would look better waging a “War on Terror” on TV. But the primary reason, and the reason they waited until 2003 to invade, was to get Dubya re-elected.

[Anastasis 23717]

The beat goes on...

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

"working tirelessly for a ceasfire."  sure.

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Quote

 

He just wanted to fix his shoes

Soha Hamdona The Electronic Intifada 29 August 2024
Damaged books lie in rubble

The aftermath of an Israeli airstrike on a school in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza City on 20 August. Hadi Daoud APA images

On 3 August at 7 pm, Israeli occupation forces struck al-Hamama and al-Huda schools in Gaza’s Sheikh Radwan neighborhood.

Seventeen people were killed and more than 60 were injured.

Those martyred and injured are not just numbers.

An hour before the bombings, struggling with famine and difficult living conditions in the north, Ahmed Nayef Ayish, 16, the brother of a close friend of mine, had asked his sister Jumana if he could go to the tailor to get a torn shoe fixed since he couldn’t afford a new one.

The tailor was next to al-Hamama School.

This is life in Gaza.

The call came soon after the bombing. Ahmed had been injured. He had sustained fractures to his rib cage and shoulder. He had shrapnel wounds all over his body. One piece was lodged in his neck and head.

He was first listed in unstable condition at the Baptist Hospital.

Then he fell into a coma.

On the morning of 6 August, we received the news that Ahmed had passed.

Every day in Gaza is like this. Every day, someone we love is murdered.

What was 16-year-old Ahmed’s fault?

What was the fault of his friend who accompanied him and who was also martyred?

I will never forget you, Ahmed. No matter how much time passes, I will bring the voice of northern Gaza to the whole world and tell everyone how the Israeli occupation killed you.

You were just a child. You did not carry any weapons, just your own shoes to have them fixed.

At a tailor’s shop next to a school.

Rest in peace, little one.

 

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

"The school’s updated code of student conduct, announced earlier this month, classifies criticism of Zionism as a violation of the university’s antidiscrimination policies."

 

Quote

 

Students arriving on campus at New York University (NYU) this fall are being greeted with a few changes. The school, like many others across the country, was a hotbed of pro-Palestine rallies and protests during the prior school year, a response to Israel’s still-ongoing war on the Gaza Strip, the death toll of which is now estimated to be anywhere from 40,000 to more than 100,000. With no end in sight — Joe Biden, an ardent supporter of Israel, is still sending Israel bombs — NYU’s administrators spent the summer break coming up with ways to nip campus activism in the bud.

It’s not only the barricades blocking off seating in the public spaces on campus, watched over by security guards, though that sends a decidedly unwelcoming message. The school’s updated code of student conduct, announced earlier this month, classifies criticism of Zionism as a violation of the university’s antidiscrimination policies.

According to the updated conduct guide, “Speech and conduct that would violate the NDAH [nondiscrimination and anti-harassment policy] if targeting Jewish or Israeli people can also violate the NDAH if directed toward Zionists.” In other words, at NYU, Zionists are now a protected class.

To pull that off requires conflating Zionism, an ethnonationalist ideology, with Judaism itself. That sleight of hand has long been a priority for supporters of Israel — including the powerful ones who constitute the Israel lobby, the coalition of pro-Israel organizations, some of them funded by the Israeli state, who work to ensure that the United States continues sending money and weapons to its Middle East ally.

The conflation accomplishes an important trick: if “Zionist” is a synonym for “Jew,” criticism of Zionism becomes bigotry, as it now has at NYU. As the school’s code of conduct puts it, “Using code words, like ‘Zionist’ does not eliminate the possibility that your speech violates the NDAH policy.”

“The new guidance sets a dangerous precedent by extending Title VI protections to anyone who adheres to Zionism, a nationalist political ideology, and troublingly equates criticism of Zionism with discrimination against Jewish people,” NYU’s Faculty for Justice in Palestine said in a statement in response to the updated code of conduct.

NYU’s administrators aren’t the only ones greeting the school year with new restrictions on speech. At the University of California, which saw a UC-wide graduate-student strike last spring, administrators are finalizing their own new restrictions on protest, which are expected to include bans on face masks and encampments.

There are parallel efforts among the state’s elected officials: as the end of the legislative session nears, lawmakers are now considering a bill which would require schools to adopt and enforce rules against harassment, discrimination, or any behavior that “creates a hostile environment on campus.”

Senate Bill 1287, introduced in February by Democratic state senator Steve Glazer, originally included a ban on any “call for or support of genocide,” which many saw as concerned not with Israel’s actions but rather as a response to the slogan “From the river to the sea.” That language has since been removed after free speech advocates raised concerns that the legislation violates the First Amendment.

“It was very clear who this bill was targeting,” Leena Sabagh, a policy manager with the Council on Islamic-American Relations, told the Intercept. Free speech organizations are still alarmed by the amended bill: the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) in California has said that it will “set a dangerous precedent of chilling speech on campuses across the state.”

 

But Israel is still bombing the Gaza Strip, and the US government is still aiding and abetting that violence. US universities are still implicated in the genocide through their investments in companies that profit from the war. Just this week, Israel launched its most sweeping offensive in the occupied West Bank since the Second Intifada. In Gaza, Israel is still starving civilians and destroying Palestinians’ water infrastructure.

The Democratic Party may be hell bent on running a good-vibes-only presidential campaign, but expect that to run headfirst into a wave of campus protests that only died down because of the summer recess. No amount of repression and restrictions will stop students from protesting a genocide. Columbia University students demonstrated that mere months ago. (Columbia’s administrators, too, have added restrictions to their student conduct guidelines as well as limiting public access to campus, moves that have elicited criticism among some faculty and staff.)

Classes are only just getting underway, and already, college students are under arrest at the University of Michigan after police attempted to break up a pro-Palestine demonstration. The reasons for protest are just as pressing as they were during the previous school year.

https://jacobin.com/2024/08/college-protests-nyu-gaza-israel

 

 

[Brian Fantana 6865]

They're going to get sued big time for that. You can't make an ideological choice a protected class.

[bolverk 30323]

This is so stupid. Aren't there multiple flavors of Zionism that range from 1) the establishment and protection of Israel, 2) ensuring Israel remains majority Jewish, and 3) revisionist Zionism which is an expansionist ideology that envisions Israel on both sides of the Jordan River?

If I were against any of those three positions (there are obviously more than just three), would I be labeled anti-Zionist and my speech anti-Semitic?

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

Netanyahu is a legit psychopath. Asking him nicely to agree to a cease fire isn't gonna work. 

Have nothing against Israel but their current leader is evil and is not going to voluntarily stop in the name of peace.

[InkaUtexas 26869]

This is a hard post. I study society's mindset in conflict. It is part of my job when we do reconstruction scenarios. But this has me thinking and in no way accepting what Israel is doing in Gaza and the West Bank.

So what is it that changed in Israel? Was talking to a few Jewish American friends a few days ago. One is against operations in Gaza and now the West Bank. The other is a fence sitter. Their takes led to this thinking.

I asked them if immigration has changed the Israeli mindset. Mostly gone are those who went through the Holocaust, replaced with those who grew up with the Never Again speech, but did not create the early vision of Modern Israel. Add to that a new wave who see Israel as their last bastion to make a life. Mainly these are the immigrants from Eastern Europe. A lot of those are the new settlers and do not have the same approach to government. Russians accept, and like, a strong leader who screams about what is best for the citizen is all that matters. Law and Order, your right to expand, second class citizens. You know, the shit we hear from the MAGA segment in the US.

The first said no, any good Israeli (notice the word good) will support Bibi and his actions. They are in the interest of the state. The state must eliminate any and all threats and expand to provide land for the new people. Actions must continue until every Israeli is safe.

The second said yes. Whereas Modern Israel was always a hodge podge of language and cultures, there was an agreement that they were above the past and just wanted their piece of land. Now the only common bind is punishment and rights to expand.

Surl thougths? Sorry if this is a bit garbled, there is never a clear cut answer on these subjects. But it leads to questions.

1- How strong is Bibi? We do not see a mass movement against the attacks in Gaza. We see events, but not labor strikes, etc.

2- At a time there was a thaw in relations with Arab states (Israelis can buy lease apartments in Dubai, etc.) how does this change? Will Israelis want to continue to engage?

3- If the conflicts and atrocities ended tomorrow, can both sides find a new normal that is not full occupation or full out civil war?

There is never peace until the populations both accept it.

 

[InkaUtexas 26869]

Prong Horns kin?

 

[chainsaw 10289]

https://www.news-journal.com/news/local/q-a-u-s-rep-colin-allred-talks-with-news-journal-about-bid-to-win/article_ae699160-6563-11ef-8fbd-bb4d5d97af48.html

Good journalism from.....Longview???

Quote

LNJ: As the war in Gaza approaches the one-year mark, national polls show a majority of Americans in both parties now support a ceasefire. Back in December, you were reluctant to call for an unconditional ceasefire. What actions would you support now?

Allred: What I've always said is that we need to bring the hostages home and have an end to the conflict. What I think is sometimes lost in the conversation about the tragedy in Gaza is the fact that Hamas is still holding over 100 hostages, and that this has to be part of an agreement that has to be struck.

I'm on the Foreign Affairs Committee, and I've spent a lot of time in the region. I've met with Prime Minister Netanyahu several times. I am a supporter of the U.S.-Israel relationship. I am not a supporter of his actions in Gaza… and the conflict as it’s being pursued now is not in the interest of Israel either.

What we have to do is continue to put forward the plan for not only the end of this conflict, but what comes next. I do think that the (Biden) administration has done that. We've laid out a pretty detailed plan of how this conflict can come to an end, and also the beginning steps of what rebuilding and the pathway towards a two-state solution can be. But we are not the deciding party, unfortunately. Otherwise, I think this would have been settled already.

This involves a terrorist organization in Hamas who has an interest in increased civilian casualties and who hides among the civilian population, and part of their battle plan is that they're going to use civilians as a shield. We also have in Netanyahu and the current Israeli government folks who have not pursued the release of the hostages and the ending of the conflict with nearly as much effort as I would want to see.

What we need to do now is use every lever we have to try and encourage both of these parties to reach an agreement. We have more levers than just our aid that have to be used. This conflict has gone on far too long. There's no more practical military goal that Israel can achieve in Gaza and Hamas’ ability to commit an Oct.t 7 style attack has been completely decimated.

But let me be clear, some things that we provide to Israel are defensive in nature. For example, when there's rocket attacks from Hezbollah, some of our military aid goes to tools like the Iron Dome system that intercept attacks, save lives, and reduce the chance of escalation. Our priority has to be to provide Israel with what they need to be safe and secure. However, if we can create diplomatic pressure, or there are things that can be specifically withheld to influence this situation, we should try and apply that pressure. But It’s not a straightforward situation where you withhold military aid and the conflict ends. This has to be a multi-faceted approach.

I want to see an independent and peaceful Palestinian state next to a stable, secure Jewish democratic state in Israel. That has to be the end goal. Right now, I think we're working every single day towards that. I've been a part of some of these discussions on the Foreign Affairs Committee, but fundamentally, we have to get these parties to agree to it. That means having the leaders in place who will reach the agreement and can execute it.

 

[BrickHorn 18447]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

The first said no, any good Israeli (notice the word good) will support Bibi and his actions. They are in the interest of the state. The state must eliminate any and all threats and expand to provide land for the new people. Actions must continue until every Israeli is safe.

This person sounds like a fucking asshole. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

16 hours ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

Netanyahu is a legit psychopath. Asking him nicely to agree to a cease fire isn't gonna work. 

Have nothing against Israel but their current leader is evil and is not going to voluntarily stop in the name of peace.

The thing is, it isn't as easy imo as just Netanyahu is evil.  You can find all kinds of evil quotes and ideas through out government positions in Israel.  google searches, reddit, e.t.c.  And the big Israeli protest recently was for the right to rape Palestinian prisoners.  The settlers raiding homes have been doing this for decades now.  It isn't netanyahu personally sniping children.  Or sniping protestors in the past.  Sure there is absolutely some dissent about the actions of the Israeli government within Israel right now.  Most noticably many of the families of hostages who quite undertand that the actions being taken really have nothing to do with freeing hostages. 

But something about being a colonizing ethnostate goes beyond just one party or leader within that place.  

[chainsaw 10289]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

The thing is, it isn't as easy imo as just Netanyahu is evil.  You can find all kinds of evil quotes and ideas through out government positions in Israel.  google searches, reddit, e.t.c.  And the big Israeli protest recently was for the right to rape Palestinian prisoners.  The settlers raiding homes have been doing this for decades now.  It isn't netanyahu personally sniping children.  Or sniping protestors in the past.  Sure there is absolutely some dissent about the actions of the Israeli government within Israel right now.  Most noticably many of the families of hostages who quite undertand that the actions being taken really have nothing to do with freeing hostages. 

But something about being a colonizing ethnostate goes beyond just one party or leader within that place.  

There's a growing opposition movement in Israel, even though it is brutally suppressed.

[MC Fresh Breath 4075]

Only tangentially related but there sure quite a few Palestinian hostages as well these days.  And they're being tortured and there's no real talk of why or of release.

Just now, chainsaw said:

There's a growing opposition movement in Israel, even though it is brutally suppressed.

yes

[Brian Fantana 6865]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

There's a growing opposition movement in Israel, even though it is brutally suppressed.

On the other hand, the majority of Israelis polled didn't think the guy that raped Palestinians to death in a prison camp should have been tried, so just maybe their society is a bit sick.

[chainsaw 10289]

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

On the other hand, the majority of Israelis polled didn't think the guy that raped Palestinians to death in a prison camp should have been tried, so just maybe their society is a bit sick.

No doubt about that. They are in desperate need of an awakening.

[chainsaw 10289]

Some bad news

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-war-hostages-hersh-netanyahu-29496f50a9b1740bd3905035ffd23052

This was the guy whose family was invited to speak at the DNC.

AP doesn't say how he died or who killed him, which is par for the course when the culprit is Israeli incompetence. The only information available is vague, saying IDF "found bodies."

[Loch Ness Monster 3533]

 

 

[chainsaw 10289]

2 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

 

 

Jon Stewart's an antisemite ya dumb sip!

[WhatTheBuck 28929]

16 minutes ago, Loch Ness Monster said:

 

 

“Neighbours?”

Maybe the Brits should sit this one out. 

[InkaUtexas 26869]

Most aggression happens between neighbors. History and all that. Mongols did not invade the Aborigines.

[WhatTheBuck 28929]

26 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Most aggression happens between neighbors. History and all that. Mongols did not invade the Aborigines.

And then there’s the creation of the state of Israel. 

[InkaUtexas 26869]

37 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

And then there’s the creation of the state of Israel. 

Um, yeah, that is the point. Neighbors usually attack neighbors.

[chainsaw 10289]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Um, yeah, that is the point. Neighbors usually attack neighbors.

Neighbors are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots

[InkaUtexas 26869]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Neighbors are natural enemies. Like Englishmen and Scots

Yes I understand the concept. The statement overlooks history.

 

[Satchel 6982]

Biden must summon the courage to use the considerable he has to force a cease fire. This won’t be precedent setting:

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/13/us-presidents-red-lines-israel

Other U.S. presidents have also threatened to withhold aid from Israel.

Dwight Eisenhower

During the Suez Crisis of the 1950s, then-President Dwight Eisenhower leveraged the threat of sanctions to convince Israel to withdraw from the Sinai Peninsula, per AP.

• In 1953, the Eisenhower administration also temporarily delayed $26 million in funding to Israel over its construction of a hydroelectric project on the Jordan River.

• Ronald Reagan

  Back in 1981, former President Ronald Reagan indefinitely delayed two shipments of F-16 fighter jets to Israel over the ''escalating level of violence'' in the Middle East.

• The following year, the Reagan administration warned Congress that Israel might have violated its arms agreement with the U.S. by using American-made weapons during its invasion of Lebanon, the New York Times reported.
• In 1983, Reagan reaffirmed that he would not send F-16 jets to Israel until Israel withdrew its forces from Lebanon. 
• "While these forces are in the position of occupying another country that now has asked them to leave, we are forbidden by law to release those planes,' he said.

 

• In 1992, the Bush administration threatened to withhold the delivery of $10 billion in loan guarantees to Israel if it continued building settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza, the Washington Post reported.

 

[Satchel 6982]

All we have to do is enforce our own laws:

The Leahy Laws or Leahy amendments are U.S. human rights laws that prohibit the U.S. Department of State and Department of Defense from providing military assistance to foreign security force units that violate human rights with impunity. It is named after its principal sponsor, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont).

[Anastasis 23717]

16 minutes ago, Satchel said:

All we have to do is enforce our own laws:

That's not how any of this international rules based order shit works. 

[linux 1787]

We are about to reach the one year anniversary of the Israelis promising us they were going to get rid of Netanyahu.

I still remember the infographic of the IDF standing in front of the Israeli people as the shield as a gotcha moment, well for the past 10+ years they abandoned their people and are standing in front of Netanyahu.

The rot, the MAGA like rot. is the majority over there. A real friend would start witholding weapons and funds right about now.

[PRONG HORN 3219]

6 hours ago, linux said:

The rot, the MAGA like rot. is the majority over there. A real friend would start witholding weapons and funds right about now.

 

You don't withhold until their enemy is disarmed or agrees to peace.  It's not rocket science.  

 

 

 

[bolverk 30323]

Make people suffer enough and they'll be willing to be subject to certain indignities in exchange for some peace. The natural instinct for self-preservation in some form or fashion makes it easy to understand why people would choose the less shitty option--not that everyday civilian Palestinians really have a choice. But, if the IDF's oppressive occupation of the West Bank and the history of Israeli settlers are guides, I could certainly understand why some would be reluctant, knowing that any right-wing Israeli government will take things too far and eventually prompt a future uprising.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/04/world/middleeast/gaza-war-cease-fire-israel.html

https://archive.is/wM9kk

Cease-fire talks in Gaza have stalled again, in part over Israel’s demand to retain a military presence in the territory, which Hamas and Egypt oppose. But the view among some Gazans on that point is less clear-cut.

Their lives have been devastated after almost a year of war and they say they find the idea of Israeli soldiers staying on — and of the checkpoints becoming permanent — disturbing. But if that helps bring an end to the war, it is a price they are willing to pay. Other Gazans expressed serious misgivings about allowing an Israeli military presence in Gaza, and some opposed it outright.

“Of course I do not accept the presence of checkpoints on our return to the north,” said Mohammad Qadoura, 40, who was displaced from his home in Gaza City.

“But if this would lead to the end of the war, I would reluctantly agree.”

Abdul Aziz Said, 33, a social worker from central Gaza, said that if an Israeli presence in the territory was “what it takes to end this war, I would totally agree.” He added, “I want this war to come to an end now and at any cost.”

Israel has said that the presence of its soldiers in Gaza after a permanent cease-fire is necessary to prevent Hamas from regrouping and weapons from being smuggled across the territory. In particular, Israel wants some Israeli troops to patrol part of the Egypt-Gaza border because it believes Egypt has not done enough to prevent Hamas from smuggling arms. And Israel believes that having Israeli troops within Gaza would aim to prevent Hamas fighters from going back en masse to regroup in the northern part of the enclave.

The latest high-level effort to reach a cease-fire agreement in Gaza ended on Aug. 25, with Israel and Hamas, the group that governs the enclave, remaining far apart on several critical issues. One of those, according to an American official who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive negotiations, is whether Israeli forces will remain on the Gaza side of the border with Egypt, and if so, how many.

This has emerged as a crucial issue. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel considers an Israeli military presence in the area, which Israel calls the Philadelphi Corridor and Egypt calls Salah Al Din, vital to preventing Hamas from rearming after the war or rebuilding tunnels to Egypt.

Hamas rejects a continued Israeli presence in the area and is demanding a complete Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Egypt says that keeping Israeli troops in the Philadelphi Corridor would raise national security concerns and be unacceptable to the Egyptian public.

Additionally, Israeli forces have built a security road, which they call the Netzarim corridor, that cuts across Gaza from east to west. Israeli officials have said that they want troops to keep patrolling that road, through which Palestinians must travel between the north and south of Gaza. While the negotiators haggle over the terms of a cease-fire, nine Gazans said in interviews with The New York Times in recent days that they were mainly concerned about getting home safely after multiple displacements and months of relentless bombardment.

Israel operates a number of checkpoints across Gaza that are often mobile and temporary. Many Gazans say they fear that the checkpoints will become permanent or expand if a cease-fire deal is reached that includes the Israeli demands.

Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians have fled their homes after repeated Israeli evacuation orders and moved from the north to the south since the war began. For many, returning home could mean confronting Israeli troops and passing through the Netzarim corridor, where they could be subjected to searches, interrogations and arrest.

Even though growing numbers of Gazans appear to fault Hamas for its role in starting the war and helping to bring death and destruction upon them, they blame Israel first and foremost.

Mohamed al-Sek, 44, a teacher and father of four from Gaza City who was displaced to central Gaza, said that he was not concerned about passing through Israeli checkpoints or being searched.

He said that only those affiliated with Hamas should be worried. “My priority is to return to my home in Gaza City and restore my old life,” Mr. al-Sek said.

But Salah Gharbia, 57, who crossed a checkpoint across the Netzarim corridor while evacuating to central Gaza from Gaza City with his seven daughters without too much trouble a few months ago, said he was worried that other families with young sons could have a more difficult time at checkpoints “even if they are not Hamas.”

The continued presence of Israeli checkpoints in Gaza would just create “more obstacles and suffocating procedures for Palestinians,” he said.

But not all Gazans were able to stomach the idea of Israel’s presence after the war ends.

“Arrests and oppression will continue,” Faten Alyan, 40, a housewife from northern Gaza, said of having Israeli troops and checkpoints in Gaza after the war. “The brutality of the occupation will confront us in a humiliating way.”

Nedaa Adel, 27, a therapist from Gaza City who was displaced to central Gaza, said she worried that Israeli troops could arrest her husband at checkpoints because she said he worked for the Hamas government but was not a militant.

“I want this war to end now, but not with this condition,” Ms. Adel said.

Najlaa al-Ghalayiny, 44, a social activist from Gaza City who now lives in a tent in an area Israel has designated a humanitarian zone after multiple displacements, said it would be difficult for Palestinians to accept the regular sight of Israeli soldiers near their homes.

A prolonged Israeli presence in Gaza “might be the first step of reoccupying” it, she added, referring to the years before Israel withdrew its decades-long military presence on the ground from Gaza in 2005.

Fadel al-Tatar, 47, said he believed that Israel wanted to “place its authority on Gaza,” in a similar way to what it had done in the occupied West Bank, where Israeli checkpoints and settlements are widespread.

“I am afraid of having more checkpoints in the future that will divide the Gaza Strip into pieces,” he added.

Still, Mr. al-Tatar said that if a cease-fire deal was reached, he would go back to his home in the north “without caring about the procedures the army can place.”

He said that many others would also do the same, “leaving behind their makeshift tents and painful memories.”

 

 

[linux 1787]

5 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

You don't withhold until their enemy is disarmed or agrees to peace.  It's not rocket science.  

 

 

 

Lol we are 20+ years on that strategy, they don't want Hamas to disarm because peace is a threat to their power.

Real friends withold money from their junkie friends.

[Brisketexan 106889]

1 hour ago, linux said:

Lol we are 20+ years on that strategy, they don't want Hamas to disarm because peace is a threat to their power.

Real friends withold money from their junkie friends.

Ding ding ding.

Bibi helped create the monster, then holds on to power with a promise of "you need me to protect you from the monster."  Then, when the monster does....what monsters do....says "now you REALLY need me.  And also, let's kill all those people there."

Quote

According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Israel continues to give the arsonists the task of putting out the fire they helped set.  Fucking insanity.

[Satchel 6982]

8 hours ago, PRONG HORN said:

 

You don't withhold until their enemy is disarmed or agrees to peace.  It's not rocket science.  

 

 

 

Would this require Bibi to no longer fund the activities of Hamas in order to keep his foil viable?

[BrickHorn 18447]

On 9/1/2024 at 10:30 AM, InkaUtexas said:

Most aggression happens between neighbors. History and all that. Mongols did not invade the Aborigines.

 

On 9/1/2024 at 10:57 AM, WhatTheBuck said:

And then there’s the creation of the state of Israel. 

 

On 9/1/2024 at 11:37 AM, InkaUtexas said:

Um, yeah, that is the point. Neighbors usually attack neighbors.

[chainsaw 10289]

I am once again asking the media to remember that Bibi was aware of the plan and allowed the attack to happen instead of preventing it.

[statsman 5693]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Ding ding ding.

Bibi helped create the monster, then holds on to power with a promise of "you need me to protect you from the monster."  Then, when the monster does....what monsters do....says "now you REALLY need me.  And also, let's kill all those people there."

Israel continues to give the arsonists the task of putting out the fire they helped set.  Fucking insanity.

So, just a week after Hamas popped caps into the heads of defenseless hostages, because they would rather they be dead, than lost to them as barter to get murderers out of captivity, we’re going to criticize Israel for not managing the Hamas relationship better. Because, if Israel had used the period of relative inactivity by Hamas to turn the screws on Gaza, all of Israel’s critics would have understood. 
 
I guess no one else sees a disconnect between criticizing Israel/Likud/Netanyahu for trying to live with Hamas pre-Oct 7, and criticizing Israel for not agreeing to a cease fire that will require them to live with Hamas going forward?

The cease fire is a myth. Israel won’t agree to one that allows Hamas to exist- that would be a surrender for Israel and a victory for Hamas. Hamas won’t agree to a cease fire that doesn’t guarantee their survival. Israel plays along to satisfy its (dwindling) western allies. Hamas plays along to satisfy Qatar and Egypt. Neither side will give. I suppose Israel could change governments, and the new one could make a deal and let the old one get tagged for the blame…of trading over a thousand murderers for a couple dozen surviving hostages, which seems like a really awful agreement. (Sinwar is free today because he was released in a similar deal before). 
 
I get that family members of hostages want any deal, no matter how bad, if it gets their loved ones back. It has to be agonizing, knowing that the hostages are being abused, tortured and killed, with no one in Hamas particularly invested in them living. They have to realize, at some level, that all these ceased negotiations are just a show. 

[Brisketexan 106889]

20 minutes ago, statsman said:

So, just a week after Hamas popped caps into the heads of defenseless hostages, because they would rather they be dead, than lost to them as barter to get murderers out of captivity, we’re going to criticize Israel for not managing the Hamas relationship better.

Oh, that criticism pre-dates the SHIT out of Hamas' latest act of evil criminality.  It goes all the way back to willingly and knowingly allowing Hamas to arm up, having advance knowledge of their planned attack, and letting it happen to provide political advantage and a pretext to do what Likud has wanted to do all along: ethnically cleanse Gaza and make it fully Israeli territory again.

Bibi and Likud weren't being nice to Gaza -- they were playing them up as a foil against the PA (who, at all costs, Bibi and Likud had to keep from having any path to becoming a legitimate government of what might become an actual Palestinian State).  Bibi and Likud bolstered Hamas (including allowing funding and resulting arming) in order to prevent, at all costs, a Palestinian State.  Their strategy cost a shitload of Israeli and other lives on October 7th.  And, in return, we are rewarding them with exactly what they've always wanted: brutal elimination of the Palestinian people and identity sufficient to prevent there from EVER being a "two-state" solution.  Likud fed the beast to prevent peace.  It worked.

[statsman 5693]

11 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Oh, that criticism pre-dates the SHIT out of Hamas' latest act of evil criminality.  It goes all the way back to willingly and knowingly allowing Hamas to arm up, having advance knowledge of their planned attack, and letting it happen to provide political advantage and a pretext to do what Likud has wanted to do all along: ethnically cleanse Gaza and make it fully Israeli territory again.

Bibi and Likud weren't being nice to Gaza -- they were playing them up as a foil against the PA (who, at all costs, Bibi and Likud had to keep from having any path to becoming a legitimate government of what might become an actual Palestinian State).  Bibi and Likud bolstered Hamas (including allowing funding and resulting arming) in order to prevent, at all costs, a Palestinian State.  Their strategy cost a shitload of Israeli and other lives on October 7th.  And, in return, we are rewarding them with exactly what they've always wanted: brutal elimination of the Palestinian people and identity sufficient to prevent there from EVER being a "two-state" solution.  Likud fed the beast to prevent peace.  It worked.

That is some crazy paranoid conspiracy talk. 
 
The PA was on a track to being a state? Do you know why the Pa doesn’t have elections in the WB? Because Hamas would win them. 
 

[Brisketexan 106889]

Just now, statsman said:

That is some crazy paranoid conspiracy talk. 
 
The PA was on a track to being a state? Do you know why the Pa doesn’t have elections in the WB? Because Hamas would win them. 
 

What's crazy and paranoid about what I said?  Seriously, what fact is wrong?  Bibi and Likud said these things (some externally, some internally).  I didn't make them up.  Likud pretty plainly stated and followed a "divide and conquer" path to ensure that the PA never got any power or legitimacy.  I never said the PA was "on track" to becoming a state -- indeed, the efforts of the Israeli right helped ensure that they would never, ever, even get on that track.  Likud much preferred feeding the militant Palestinian beast and starving/crippling the potentially functionally governing Palestinian beast because the Israeli right 1) needed a monster to be the protectors against, and 2) needed to ensure that Palestinian statehood never, ever happened (a militant Palestinian governing entity, like Hamas, was never going to be able to garner enough support globally to give birth to a Palestinian state).

These are strategies that Likud and their hardline pals have made little secret of.

And again, no excusing the shitbaggery of Hamas.  It just, ummm, might have been nice for Israeli leadership to have spent the effort they took to boost Hamas to instead boost the PA in the WB.  But they were never, ever going to do that because they want to take the entire WB, and they sure as shit never want a Palestinian state.  The Israeli right has gotten what it wanted.  It only cost stacks of dead Israelis and now even bigger stacks of dead Palestinians.  Hamas played exactly the role that they needed to play, because they are stupid, bloodthirsty shitheads: the role of the monster.

[Satchel 6982]

It’s hard to imagine the number of little baby terrorists being formed amidst the carnage and death in Gaza and Rafah.

[Anastasis 23717]

7 minutes ago, Satchel said:

It’s hard to imagine the number of little baby terrorists being formed amidst the carnage and death in Gaza and Rafah.

Tens of thousands of children, maybe more, with severe PTSD. Wait. You can't actually call it post-traumatic, cause the trauma is still ongoing. And our politicians literally the sign the bombs. Decency. We the people. And whatever other delusions help us sleep better at night. 

 

[statsman 5693]

13 hours ago, Satchel said:

It’s hard to imagine the number of little baby terrorists being formed amidst the carnage and death in Gaza and Rafah.

I think a bigger problem is the small Palestinian children being told, “Here where we live? This isn’t our home. That place 50 miles away? That’s our home. It was taken from your great grandparents by those bad people and you need to grow up and take it back”. 

[BrickHorn 18447]

4 minutes ago, statsman said:

I think a bigger problem is the small Palestinian children being told, “Here where we live? This isn’t our home. That place 50 miles away? That’s our home. It was taken from your great grandparents by those bad people and you need to grow up and take it back”. 

It’s nice to see that, over the past 11 months, your takes haven’t gotten any less shitty.

[bolverk 30323]

Today, an American woman was murdered while protesting illegal Israeli settlement expansions. As the piece below documents, she's not the first and certainly won't be the last.

Oh, and yesterday, the IDF shot and killed a 13yo Palestinian girl.

 

Israeli soldiers fatally shot an American woman at a West Bank protest, witnesses say

NABLUS, West Bank (AP) — Israeli soldiers killed an American woman demonstrating against settlements in the West Bank on Friday, according to two witnesses who said what began as a peaceful demonstration devolved into a clash between stone-throwing protesters and troops firing live ammunition. Two Palestinian doctors said 26-year-old Aysenur Ezgi Eygi of Seattle was shot in the head.

The U.S. government confirmed Eygi’s death but did not say whether the recent graduate of the University of Washington, who was also a Turkish citizen, had been shot by Israeli troops. The White House said it was “deeply disturbed” by the killing of a U.S. citizen and called on Israel to investigate what happened.

The Israeli military said it was looking into reports that troops had killed a foreign national while firing at an “instigator of violent activity” in the area of the protest.

The killing came amid a surge of violence in the West Bank since the Israel-Hamas war began in October, with increasing Israeli raids, attacks by Palestinian militants on Israelis, attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinians and heavier military crackdowns on Palestinian protests. More than 690 Palestinians have been killed, according to Palestinian health officials.

On Thursday, Israeli troops shot and killed a 13-year-old Palestinian girl, Bana Laboom, in her village outside the West Bank town of Nabul, Palestinian health officials said. There was no immediate military comment on the report.

Eygi, a volunteer with the activist group International Solidarity Movement, was attending a weekly demonstration against settlement expansion that has been held for years and has often brought Israeli crackdowns and protester stone-throwing.

Jonathan Pollak, an Israeli participating in Friday’s protest, said the shooting occurred shortly after dozens of Palestinians and international activists held a communal prayer on a hillside outside the northern West Bank town of Beita overlooking the Israeli settlement of Evyatar.

Soldiers surrounded the prayer, and clashes soon broke out, with Palestinians throwing stones and troops firing tear gas and live ammunition, Pollak said.

The protesters and activists retreated and clashes subdued, he said. He then watched as two soldiers on the roof of a nearby home trained a gun in the group’s direction and fired.

He said he saw Eygi “lying on the ground, next to an olive tree, bleeding to death.”

Mariam Dag, another ISM activist at the protest, also said she saw an Israeli soldier on a rooftop, then heard the firing of two live bullets. One hit a Palestinian protester in the leg; the other hit Eygi. Dag said she saw blood coming from the fallen woman’s head.

“The shots were coming from the direction of the army,” she said.

Eygi had just arrived in the West Bank on Tuesday, Dag said. She had been “very excited this morning to start. She was really keen on coming to the demonstration.”

“This has been happening to Palestinians for decades. This happened because of the impunity which the Israelis act with,” while Western governments do little, she said.

Two doctors confirmed Eygi was shot in the head — Dr. Ward Basalat, who administered first aid at the scene, and Dr. Fouad Naffa, director of Rafidia Hospital in Nablus where she was taken.

ISM said 17 Palestinians have been killed by Israeli forces at the weekly Beita protests since March 2020. A month ago, an American, Amado Sison, was shot in the leg by Israeli forces, he said, as he tried to flee tear gas and live fire.

At the University of Washington, where Eygi recently graduated with a degree in psychology, Aria Fani, a professor of Middle Eastern languages and cultures, recalled Eygi’s activism earlier this year at a pro-Palestinian encampment, and remembered her as someone with a gift for listening to others.

Fani said he had tried to talk Eygi out of going to the West Bank but that she told him “she needed to bear witness for the sake of her own humanity.”

Secretary of State Antony Blinken said the U.S. was “intensely focused” on determining what happened and that “we will draw the necessary conclusions and consequences from that.”

In a posting on X, the Turkish Foreign Ministry condemned “this murder carried out by” the Israeli government. Turkey will work “to ensure that those who killed our citizen is brought to justice,” ministry spokesman Oncu Keceli said.

Human rights groups say Israeli soldiers who kill Palestinians – or their foreign supporters – rarely are held to account. The Israeli military says it investigates such instances and takes action if there is criminal wrongdoing.

At least three activists from the International Solidarity Movement have been killed since 2000.

Two of them were killed in Gaza in 2003. American Rachel Corrie was crushed to death as she tried to block an Israeli military bulldozer from demolishing a Palestinian home. About a month later, British citizen Tom Hurndall was shot in the head by an Israeli soldier. ISM activists often place themselves between Israeli forces and Palestinians to try to stop the Israeli military from carrying out operations.

The Israeli military ruled Corrie’s death an accident, a conclusion widely rejected by rights groups. The soldier who killed Hurndall was sentenced to 11 and a half years in prison and was released after serving just over half of it.

Shireen Abu Akleh — a Palestinian-American journalist with the Al Jazeera news network – was shot to death covering an Israeli raid in the West Bank in 2022. The United States concluded an Israeli soldier likely killed her by mistake, and Israel acknowledged that was a “high probability” but not certain and ruled out a criminal investigation. Al Jazeera accuses troops of intentionally killing her.

A handful of Americans have been killed in the West Bank since the Israel-Hamas war began, apparently by Israeli fire. Two Palestinian-American teens, Mohammad Khdour and Tawfic Abdel Jabbar, were shot to death in the span of a month while driving close to their villages. The findings of U.S. and Israeli investigations into their deaths have not been released.

In a statement Thursday, U.S. Senator Chris Van Hollen of Maryland said the Biden administration has not done enough “to pursue justice and accountability” for Khdour and Abdel Jabbar. He said it must “use American influence to demand the prosecution of those responsible for harm against American citizens.”