Israel

[GHOSTUSER 361]

4 hours ago, hpslugga said:

Hell even Benny Morris has been admitting that much for years. 

From the book I read that I mentioned, I was shocked at the disparity in population and clusters of population that the Jews and Arabs had respectively in Palestine at the time of partition. My impression from the mandate era is that despite political differences between the Ben Gurion and Jabotinsky wings of Zionism, the Jews were much more organized, united and ready to take over the levers of power. The Palestinians were in a confused state, there was a large sentiment that believed they had a shared history with Syria and should be in a united state with them but that was not possible because of Sykes-Picot.

The Jews were ready to go with a state of their own as they were self-governed in their own communities, had their own militias, etc. Despite lip service of being concerned for both the Jewish and Arab populations, the British definitely helped the Zionist cause for independence more than the Arabs. The same problems the Palestinians had at the time of partition are still present today. Disorganization, lack of representative government, absolutist positions and a stance of refusing to negotiate/boycott. The fatal bad move they made as a people was leaving their homes during the 1948 war. The Arabs had legit reasons to fear for their lives because of Jewish led massacres that were committed which is different from the oft-repeated claim that the Arabs left their homes in order to pave the way for the Arab armies to drive the Jews into the sea.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[Hank Scorpio 17,924]

 

[F250 29,201]

What is interesting is that the British Mandate while having geopolitical reasons was in part domestically supported based on Christian Zionism. The United States continues a similar support for Israel for geopolitical reasons with a large domestic support from Christian Zionism. I'm curious if Israel would need to compromise a bit more if the evangelical vote wasn't so dominant with the GOP. Granted, the Democrats take in a large amount of AIPAC money just like the Republicans.

 

[NowThis 931]

we only have the present and the future. Discussing the justification of zionism or Arab rejectionism is  a moot point now due to Israel's absolute dominance in all areas. The future of the Palestinians is not is their negotiating teams but in the hands of the Israeli army, settler movement, Netanyahu and the US Congress as directed by AIPAC. 

So what is the resolution? In all the discussions, it's "the Pals must do this or that". But what must the Jews do to resolve it. Remember, in life, only those who have the power can make the real change, Arabs have zero. 

[David Dennison 19,554]

3 minutes ago, NowThis said:

we only have the present and the future. Discussing the justification of zionism or Arab rejectionism is  a moot point now due to Israel's absolute dominance in all areas. The future of the Palestinians is not is their negotiating teams but in the hands of the Israeli army, settler movement, Netanyahu and the US Congress as directed by AIPAC. 

So what is the resolution? In all the discussions, it's "the Pals must do this or that". But what must the Jews do to resolve it. Remember, in life, only those who have the power can make the real change, Arabs have zero. 

Israel does not want a resolution. The status quo is more valuable as a political issue.

[DaysOff 8,212]

Pretty good.  Fucking American government and our lobby apparatus.
Another point of view....
 

Don't confuse the American far left with fact. They're too busy being anti-Semitic. The party of Hitler. They should just own it and embrace it.

[hpslugga 4,097]

7 minutes ago, DaysOff said:

Don't confuse the American far left with fact.

Don’t worry; he’s not.

[NowThis 931]

the UN has condemned IDF shootings as murder.   Purposefully shooting at kids, nurses, disabled, and journalists - at close range.

Watch the video, you'll find it interesting

 

[bad_teammate 13,552]

Israel is a client state of the United States and this is what we actually want them to be doing. The expansionist, Arab-hostile policies are features of our Israel project, not bugs.

 

[NowThis 931]

the AIPAC types are going after Omar harder than any politician i can remember

[Foosters 18,285]

On 2/12/2019 at 10:40 AM, DaysOff said:

On 2/12/2019 at 4:32 AM, Cajun said:

Pretty good.  Fucking American government and our lobby apparatus.
Another point of view....
 

Don't confuse the American far left with fact. They're too busy being anti-Semitic. The party of Hitler. They should just own it and embrace it.

LOL. Trump's base marches in public chanting "Jews will not replace us."

[David Dennison 19,554]

6 minutes ago, NowThis said:

the AIPAC types are going after Omar harder than any politician i can remember

Proving her point.

[NowThis 931]

4 minutes ago, Foosters said:

LOL. Trump's base marches in public chanting "Jews will not replace us."

his racist base is split regarding Jews.  A small percentage are the Nazi/Aryan Nation type who are whites only; others are western white cultural chauvinists who are Judeo-Christian white supremacists and include Jews , mainly via Israel - as a forward stabbing spear - against the Mooozlims, including Jews into their "good list".  Us vs. them, but Jews are in the "us". 

[Foosters 18,285]

Just now, NowThis said:

his racist base is split regarding Jews.  A small percentage are the Nazi/Aryan Nation type who are whites only; others are western white cultural chauvinists who are Judeo-Christian white supremacists and include Jews , mainly via Israel - as a forward stabbing spear - against the Mooozlims, including Jews into their "good list".  Us vs. them, but Jews are in the "us". 

No, I get it. I just find it hilarious that someone would accuse the Dems of being the party of Hitler when actual Nazis march in support of Trump.

[David Dennison 19,554]

2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

No, I get it. I just find it hilarious that someone would accuse the Dems of being the party of Hitler when actual Nazis march in support of Trump.

It's in line with the whole Nazis are left wing socialists trope that they like to trot out. 

[hpslugga 4,097]

5 minutes ago, Foosters said:

No, I get it. I just find it hilarious that someone would accuse the Dems of being the party of Hitler when actual Nazis march in support of Trump.

At this point, I no longer find that because it's predictably true. We're at a point where we can just straight up predict how they'll react/respond to just about any story. It's as if they have an addiction to fractal wrongness.

[retread 2,951]

11 minutes ago, Foosters said:

No, I get it. I just find it hilarious that someone would accuse the Dems of being the party of Hitler when actual Nazis march in support of Trump.

Just seems like the shiny object of the day. Something to talk about instead of doing actual work.

I guess the Ds have to respond, but it's just playing into the Rs hands.

[Zavala 1,384]

Conspiracy theorist in congress!

Edited March 5, 2019 by Zavala

[GHOSTUSER 361]

9 hours ago, NowThis said:

the AIPAC types are going after Omar harder than any politician i can remember

She deserves it. I am glad that she is expressing her true feelings, which mirror the rabid anti-Semitism of the Somali community in Minnesota, a community that isolates itself from the rest of society and is a hotbed of Islamic radicalism. Jewish groups are on her like a hawk as they should be because she is the most dangerous member of Congress because of her background. Omar has already been called out by the leadership of her own party. Not seeing any more glowing portrayals of her and Rashida Tlaib like we did earlier. She will be marginalized and ostracized and I’m sure will not get re-elected.

Edited March 6, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

She deserves it. I am glad that she is expressing her true feelings, namely the rabid anti-Semitism of the Somali community. Jewish groups are on her like a hawk as they should be because she is the most dangerous member of Congress because of her background. Omar has already been called out by the leadership of her own party. Not seeing any more glowing portrayals of her and Rashida Tlaib like we did earlier. She will be marginalized and ostracized and I’m sure will not get re-elected.

there isn't even a tiny bit of anti-semitism in anything she said, nor is there in anything anti-Israel whatsoever. 

[GHOSTUSER 361]

1 minute ago, NowThis said:

there isn't even a tiny bit of anti-semitism in anything she said, nor is there in anything anti-Israel whatsoever. 

Sure what’s anti-Semitic about saying Jews hypnotize the world, that Congressmen who support Israel do so only because of money and tweeting over the weekend by accusing pro-Israel lawmakers of pushing "for allegiance to a foreign country”. Those are textbook examples of anti-Semitism. Even Michelle Goldberg from the Times called her out and she was one of her biggest champions in thr press.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Just like to point out Omar is just as or even more critical of Saudi Arabia as she is of Israel for the same reasons.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Can someone post her actual quotes so I don’t have to really on some trolls bullshit spin? 

[David Dennison 19,554]

1 minute ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Sure what’s anti-Semitic about saying Jews hypnotize the world, that Congressmen who support Israel do so only because of money and tweeting over the weekend by accusing pro-Israel lawmakers of pushing "for allegiance to a foreign country”. Those are textbook examples of anti-Semitism. Even Michelle Goldberg from the Times called her out and she was one of her biggest champions in thr press.

Neither of these things are anti-Semitic, unless, of course, the law-makers in question are Jews.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Ilhan Omar Accuses Israel Hawks of ‘Allegiance to a Foreign Country’

Jonathan Chait@jonathanchaitFeb. 28, 2019

 

 

Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minnesota) Photo: Tom Williams/CQ-Roll Call,Inc.

Earlier this month, Representative Ilhan Omar tweeted, “It’s all about the Benjamins, baby!” in response to a report about AIPAC, a pro-Israel organization. Omar’s tweet echoed a longstanding anti-Semitic trope — in particular, the implication that Jewish political influence operates entirely (“all about”) through money.

After wide condemnation, Omar apologized. It seemed fair to read her tweet generously: Perhaps she was not familiar with the particular vein of anti-Semitism she happened to echo. Indeed, progressives often make crudely reductive statements about the influence of money in supporting policies they oppose (to wit: everything Bernie Sanders says), so it wasn’t necessarily anti-Semitic for Omar to extend that thinking to Jews. Her apparently sincere apology seemed to set to rest a minor offense.

But at an event last night, Omar went much farther, reports Laura Kelly. After an audience member shouted out, “It’s all about the Benjamins,” at which, according to Kelly’s reporting, she smiled. (Jeremy Slevin, Omar’s press secretary and strategist, denies she acknowledged that line from the audience.) Later she stated, “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.”

This is much worse. Accusing Jews of “allegiance to a foreign country” is a historically classic way of delegitimizing their participation in the political system. Whether or not the foreign policy agenda endorsed by American supporters of Israel is wise or humane, it is a legitimate expression of their political rights as American citizens. To believe in a strong American alliance with Israel (or Canada, or the United Kingdom, or any other country) is not the same thing as giving one’s allegiance to that country. Omar is directly invoking the hoary myth of dual loyalty, in which the Americanness of Jews is inherently suspect, and their political participation must be contingent upon proving their patriotism.

Of course, she is attempting to couch her position as a defense of free speech, and against a tendency to reflexively dismiss all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. And it’s certainly true that many Israel hawks do label criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic without a good basis to do so. There should be more space in American politics to advocate criticism of Israel and support for Palestinian rights.

But Omar is using that cause to smuggle in ugly stereotypes. And whatever presumption of good faith she deserved last time should be gone now.

Get unlimited access to Intelligencer and everything else New York.

Learn More »

This post has been updated.

[NowThis 931]

14 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Sure what’s anti-Semitic about saying Jews hypnotize the world, that Congressmen who support Israel do so only because of money and tweeting over the weekend by accusing pro-Israel lawmakers of pushing "for allegiance to a foreign country”. Those are textbook examples of anti-Semitism. Even Michelle Goldberg from the Times called her out and she was one of her biggest champions in thr press.

she's right about the money / Aipac and other groups - there's a 4 hour Youtube documentary on it if you want me to link that. This should be obvious.

 

Allegiance to a foreign country is also true and not anti-semitism.  America is a nation of immigrants, we have lots of lobbyists urging Congress to look favorably on their favorite nation -- for example ITALY. 

ITALY has a lobby in the US via Italian Americans  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_American_Congressional_Delegation   .Now if we say that the Italian lobby is buying off the politicians to support an Italian dictatorship , doesn't mean it's a textbook example of anti-Italianism. 

these are such flawed logical arguments, how can any intelligent person buy it?  

[JimmyJames 12,271]

Meh. Money influences politics? Yeah no shit. 

And last time I checked Israel was a foreign country.

Seems like a bunch of bullshit to me. And not even remotely close to being “anti-Semitic.”

[NowThis 931]

4 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Ilhan Omar Accuses Israel Hawks of ‘Allegiance to a Foreign Country’

Jonathan Chait@jonathanchaitFeb. 28, 2019

 

 

Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minnesota) Photo: Tom Williams/CQ-Roll Call,Inc.

Earlier this month, Representative Ilhan Omar tweeted, “It’s all about the Benjamins, baby!” in response to a report about AIPAC, a pro-Israel organization. Omar’s tweet echoed a longstanding anti-Semitic trope — in particular, the implication that Jewish political influence operates entirely (“all about”) through money.

After wide condemnation, Omar apologized. It seemed fair to read her tweet generously: Perhaps she was not familiar with the particular vein of anti-Semitism she happened to echo. Indeed, progressives often make crudely reductive statements about the influence of money in supporting policies they oppose (to wit: everything Bernie Sanders says), so it wasn’t necessarily anti-Semitic for Omar to extend that thinking to Jews. Her apparently sincere apology seemed to set to rest a minor offense.

But at an event last night, Omar went much farther, reports Laura Kelly. After an audience member shouted out, “It’s all about the Benjamins,” at which, according to Kelly’s reporting, she smiled. (Jeremy Slevin, Omar’s press secretary and strategist, denies she acknowledged that line from the audience.) Later she stated, “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.”

This is much worse. Accusing Jews of “allegiance to a foreign country” is a historically classic way of delegitimizing their participation in the political system. Whether or not the foreign policy agenda endorsed by American supporters of Israel is wise or humane, it is a legitimate expression of their political rights as American citizens. To believe in a strong American alliance with Israel (or Canada, or the United Kingdom, or any other country) is not the same thing as giving one’s allegiance to that country. Omar is directly invoking the hoary myth of dual loyalty, in which the Americanness of Jews is inherently suspect, and their political participation must be contingent upon proving their patriotism.

Of course, she is attempting to couch her position as a defense of free speech, and against a tendency to reflexively dismiss all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. And it’s certainly true that many Israel hawks do label criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic without a good basis to do so. There should be more space in American politics to advocate criticism of Israel and support for Palestinian rights.

But Omar is using that cause to smuggle in ugly stereotypes. And whatever presumption of good faith she deserved last time should be gone now.

Get unlimited access to Intelligencer and everything else New York.

Learn More »

This post has been updated.

she's right , so how is that wrong? Lots of people in the US have their hearts in both places.  I have a good Jamaican friend who openly roots for the Jams even if they are playing the US in any sport. 

[retread 2,951]

3 minutes ago, NowThis said:

these are such flawed logical arguments, how can any intelligent person buy it?  

Because Rush/Fox have drilled it into the heads of the R voters for two decades.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

9 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Ilhan Omar Accuses Israel Hawks of ‘Allegiance to a Foreign Country’

Jonathan Chait@jonathanchaitFeb. 28, 2019

 

 

Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-Minnesota) Photo: Tom Williams/CQ-Roll Call,Inc.

Earlier this month, Representative Ilhan Omar tweeted, “It’s all about the Benjamins, baby!” in response to a report about AIPAC, a pro-Israel organization. Omar’s tweet echoed a longstanding anti-Semitic trope — in particular, the implication that Jewish political influence operates entirely (“all about”) through money.

After wide condemnation, Omar apologized. It seemed fair to read her tweet generously: Perhaps she was not familiar with the particular vein of anti-Semitism she happened to echo. Indeed, progressives often make crudely reductive statements about the influence of money in supporting policies they oppose (to wit: everything Bernie Sanders says), so it wasn’t necessarily anti-Semitic for Omar to extend that thinking to Jews. Her apparently sincere apology seemed to set to rest a minor offense.

But at an event last night, Omar went much farther, reports Laura Kelly. After an audience member shouted out, “It’s all about the Benjamins,” at which, according to Kelly’s reporting, she smiled. (Jeremy Slevin, Omar’s press secretary and strategist, denies she acknowledged that line from the audience.) Later she stated, “I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is okay to push for allegiance to a foreign country.”

This is much worse. Accusing Jews of “allegiance to a foreign country” is a historically classic way of delegitimizing their participation in the political system. Whether or not the foreign policy agenda endorsed by American supporters of Israel is wise or humane, it is a legitimate expression of their political rights as American citizens. To believe in a strong American alliance with Israel (or Canada, or the United Kingdom, or any other country) is not the same thing as giving one’s allegiance to that country. Omar is directly invoking the hoary myth of dual loyalty, in which the Americanness of Jews is inherently suspect, and their political participation must be contingent upon proving their patriotism.

Of course, she is attempting to couch her position as a defense of free speech, and against a tendency to reflexively dismiss all criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic. And it’s certainly true that many Israel hawks do label criticism of Israel as anti-Semitic without a good basis to do so. There should be more space in American politics to advocate criticism of Israel and support for Palestinian rights.

But Omar is using that cause to smuggle in ugly stereotypes. And whatever presumption of good faith she deserved last time should be gone now.

Get unlimited access to Intelligencer and everything else New York.

Learn More »

This post has been updated.

What a completely dishonest article. Not surprised you are the one posting it. 

[NowThis 931]

Just now, retread said:

Because Rush/Fox have drilled it into the heads of the R voters for two decades.

the guilt shaming originates from the Holocaust obviously and the US tie-in with WW2 as liberators and guardians of the Jewish people.  It's a tough thing to overcome. The world has changed a  lot in the last 50 years and we must evolve to solve this entanglement. People with guts, not just 2 embattled Muslim female US Reps, must rise up to meet the topic head on without becoming a puppet for AIPAC. 

[FondrenRoad 4,378]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

there isn't even a tiny bit of anti-semitism in anything she said, nor is there in anything anti-Israel whatsoever. 

Yep. Here is a better piece on it. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/03/05/dishonest-smearing-ilhan-omar/?utm_term=.413ebd6bf06d

[bad_teammate 13,552]

Icono is garbage. Jonathan Chait is garbage. It's a big 'ole pile of garbage. DIVE IN

[retread 2,951]

39 minutes ago, FondrenRoad said:

Yep. Here is a better piece on it. 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/03/05/dishonest-smearing-ilhan-omar/?utm_term=.413ebd6bf06d

^

Quote

And here’s the ultimate irony: Dual loyalty is precisely what AIPAC demands, and what it gets. Again, it makes this demand not of Jews, but of every member of Congress, and even of politicians at the state level whom you wouldn’t think would be conducting foreign policy. And it is working.

Take, for instance, the wave of state laws passed in recent years in opposition to the Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) movement, in which a state would refuse to do business with anyone who supports BDS. In some cases, those laws require that contractors sign a document promising not to support any boycott of Israel. It’s illustrated by the case of a speech pathologist in Texas who sued over a requirement that she sign such a pledge to work in a public school district. That is literally a demand that she pledge her loyalty to Israel. She’s not Jewish, and the officials who demanded that she do so aren’t either; the Texas Republican Party is not exactly an organization dominated by Jews. When Gov. Greg Abbott (R) — also not a Jew — proclaims that “Anti-Israel policies are anti-Texas policies,” he’s expressing his dual loyalty.

Yet, when Omar says she shouldn’t have to do the same, everyone jumps up to accuse her of anti-Semitism, on the bogus grounds that 1) //she is secretly referring to Jews and not to what she is being asked to do; and 2) it’s some kind of anti-Semitic smear to even raise the issue of people being asked to promise their allegiance to Israel, when the truth is that members of Congress are asked to do just that.

 

[Fozzz 152]

No, we aren't saying that criticizing Israel necessarily = anti-Semitism.  Now, if you're serious about showing that you aren't anti-Semitic, you need to start showing more support for Israel.

 

 

[NowThis 931]

meanwhile, while we lament the oppression of Israeli and American Jews, this elderly Palestinian couple had their East Jerusalem home demolished yesterday

[hpslugga 4,097]

11 minutes ago, NowThis said:

meanwhile, while we lament the oppression of Israeli and American Jews, this elderly Palestinian couple had their East Jerusalem home demolished yesterday

Clearly they’re Hamas soldiers

[Dirk X West 772]

Yep. These old people shouldn't have killed Israeli babies (not pictured).

[retread 2,951]

 

[bad_teammate 13,552]

Bibi says the quiet part loud.

Israel is an ethnostate and its current government is worthy of international condemnation in strong terms.

BDS is a justice movement that should be adopted and expanded.

Our tax dollars should never be spent in support of ethnostates.

Edited March 10, 2019 by bad_teammate

[hpslugga 4,097]

6 hours ago, bad_teammate said:

BDS is a justice movement

They’re actually not. I support the movement in terms of what the name implies, but their ultimate goal will never work.

[NowThis 931]

29 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

They’re actually not. I support the movement in terms of what the name implies, but their ultimate goal will never work.

what is their ultimate goal? 

[David Dennison 19,554]

This is helpful.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is the homeland “only of the Jewish people,” in a new jab at the country’s Arab minority ahead of April’s election.

[Anastasis 23,723]

Subsidizing another international arms dealer to own the “isolationists”. 

[Fozzz 152]

Stumbled upon this the other day - Israel created and ran a terrorist group (FLLF) that killed hundred of civilians in the 1980s through car bombings.  The fact that Israel directed the FLLF was only discovered recently, and has been virtually ignored by the corporate media.  Shit, if someone dared mention this on CNN or something they would probably be branded an anti-Semite.

 

 

[Js1 87,190]

10 hours ago, David Dennison said:

This is helpful.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says Israel is the homeland “only of the Jewish people,” in a new jab at the country’s Arab minority ahead of April’s election.

How very American GOP of him.

[NowThis 931]

12 minutes ago, Fozzz said:

Stumbled upon this the other day - Israel created and ran a terrorist group (FLLF) that killed hundred of civilians in the 1980s through car bombings.  The fact that Israel directed the FLLF was only discovered recently, and has been virtually ignored by the corporate media.  Shit, if someone dared mention this on CNN or something they would probably be branded an anti-Semite.

 

 

interesting, I knew Israel was responsible for attacking Hezbollah in a car bombing that killed about 80 people, but this is about the Palestinians in Lebanon.

Of course we know Israel is supported Al Qaeda in Syria through the offshoot Al Nusra Front. All is forgiven.... because Holocaust/Jesus is coming back/"they" are Arabs/ 911 etc. 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,367]

Running on an Ethno-State platform is so hot right now.  

[hpslugga 4,097]

21 hours ago, NowThis said:

what is their ultimate goal? 

Their goal, whether unwitting or not, is to destroy Israel demographically.

When their movement started to gain traction just a few years after BDS was founded as a movement, they stated that they were "based on international law."

But later on they announced their 3 tiers, which is:

1. The ending of the occupation
2. Granting equal rights to the Arab minority inside Israel
3. The full implementation of the Right of Return.

I wholeheartedly endorse tiers #1 and #2, but #3 is a non-starter. If that were to be implemented, there'd be around 6 million Arabs admitted into Israel, and thus we've overnight completely changed the demographic character of the country from being a strong Jewish majority to being an Arab majority. That's a non-starter. The broad international consensus that supports the two-state settlement never insists on the full implementation of RoR. In fact, what they insist on is the "just settlement of the refugee question" with an acknowledgment from the Israeli government, which means that a much lower number of Arabs would be allowed to go back but not to such an extent that it even remotely threatens the demographic character. This is the reason why BDS enjoys such limited international support. Instead of refuting the very oft repeated charge of wanting Israel to cease to exist, which was levied against them years ago even by people like Chomsky, Finkelstein, Sara Roy, etc, they've given ambiguous statements about "we're agnostic on Israel."

If you're concerned with international law, you can't say that you take no position on Israel.

[Fozzz 152]

This asshole.

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Fozzz