Israel

[NowThis 931]

16 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Exactly. Well, not "exactly" exactly, but close enough.

Both sides are in the wrong a lot of the time. The Palestinians are sending bombs attached to rockets into Israel.

And if the Palestinians want to get serious about cleaning things up, they can start with Hamas.

Israel is brutalizing a civilian population who have been under a military dictatorship for half a century.  I'll give them a pass for violence against the Jews. 

[hpslugga 4042]

4 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Israel is brutalizing a civilian population who have been under a military dictatorship for half a century.  I'll give them a pass for violence against the Jews. 

As does international law. People struggling for independence and self-determination have the right to use lethal force against their oppressors, especially if said oppressor is a military entity of a foreign state. There's even a name for that. It's called "belligerent reprisals."

Edited March 25, 2019 by hpslugga

[Lagunamadre 1975]

I thought Kushner had this whole deal figured out? 

[hpslugga 4042]

1 minute ago, Lagunamadre said:

I thought Kushner had this whole deal figured out? 

Yep, just like The Donald did with healthcare.

[Lagunamadre 1975]

Just now, hpslugga said:

Yep, just like The Donald did with healthcare.

Almost like both are complicated issues, who woulda thunk it. 

[Asithappens 974]

12 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Israel is brutalizing a civilian population who have been under a military dictatorship for half a century.  I'll give them a pass for violence against the Jews. 

What about Hamas?

Do you give them a pass for violence against the muslim arabs?

[hpslugga 4042]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

What about Hamas?

Do you give them a pass for violence against the muslim arabs?

They're a disgusting organization, there's no doubt. However, their crimes (which are real) are undetectable when you compare.

And by the way, Hamas wouldn't even exist were it not for Israel/the US' systematic railroading of the PLO for the entirety of the 3 decades prior to the Hamas elections.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Violence in the face of oppression is hard to condemn.

[Asithappens 974]

24 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Israel is brutalizing a civilian population who have been under a military dictatorship for half a century.  I'll give them a pass for violence against the Jews. 

A civilian population which sends rockets into Israel.

Got it.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Asithappens

[bad_teammate 13132]

6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

A civilian population which sends rockets into Israel.

Got it.

No. The vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza do not participate in any violence against Israel. However, all Palestinians in Gaza suffer Israeli oppression.

[Asithappens 974]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

No. The vast majority of Palestinians in Gaza do not participate in any violence against Israel. However, all Palestinians in Gaza suffer Israeli oppression.

What you just wrote in no way negates the fact that a civilian population in Gaza sends rockets into Israel. 

 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

Israel shows remarkable restraint.  They have the ability to wipe out the Palestinians.  They aren’t willing.  Palestinians are the opposite.  No ability.  But willing.  

[PRONG HORN 3109]

7 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

Israel shows remarkable restraint.  They have the ability to wipe out the Palestinians.  They aren’t willing.  Palestinians are the opposite.  No ability.  But willing.  

 

They are willing but they know that if they do, it's their ass.  

[bad_teammate 13132]

7 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

What you just wrote in no way negates the fact that a civilian population in Gaza sends rockets into Israel.

 

[NowThis 931]

22 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

A civilian population which sends rockets into Israel.

Got it.

pay attention. It's ok to attack a military dictatorship.  I don't see anything wrong with the actions of Hamas. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

The people of Israel are not under occupation or oppression by the people in Gaza. Yes, there are occasional terror attacks that injure Israelis. That is not, however, anything like living in the open-air prison that is Gaza.

Violence that comes from an oppressed people is difficult to condemn.

Violence that comes from a dominant people is very easy to condemn.

 

[Chrispy 132]

Israel holds all of the power and Palestine still exists. If the roles were reversed, Israel would be wiped off the map. 

C’mon people, this is basic stuff. 

[Asithappens 974]

47 minutes ago, Chrispy said:

Israel holds all of the power and Palestine still exists. If the roles were reversed, Israel would be wiped off the map. 

C’mon people, this is basic stuff. 

Israel is surrounded by countries that desire to wipe it off the face of the earth. Some of those countries even espouse that view as their official, national policy.

Both sides are effed up. Imo, Israel is less effed up.

And, while some here seem to slight this fact, the Palestinians will (imo) never be allies to the US. They were dancing for joy after 9/11. Do you think that somehow they (Palestinians) would suddenly "like" the US if the US turned against Israel and supported them? That's not how Middle East politics works. 

[Asithappens 974]

2 hours ago, NowThis said:

I don't see anything wrong with the actions of Hamas. 

From what you've posted here, I'm sure you don't.

***edit to add***

This is, in a nutshell, what is wrong with the Palestinian mindset.

There is something wrong with the actions of both sides. But one side here (the pro-Palestinian) can't see anything wrong with these actions. 

That's why this problem will never be solved. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Asithappens

[Asithappens 974]

2 hours ago, NowThis said:

  I don't see anything wrong with the actions of Hamas. 

Here are some of the actions of Hamas that some seem to find ok, even "nothing wrong".

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-hamas.html

 

Hamas security forces moved quickly to quell the protests that brought hundreds of people into the streets in at least four camps and towns across Gaza this month to demand better living conditions.

The security forces beat demonstrators, raided homes and detained organizers, journalists and participants, about 1,000 people in all. Along with the uniformed officers, masked, plainclothes Hamas enforcers armed with pistols, batons and wooden rods attacked the protesters, according to witnesses, and prevented journalists and human rights workers from documenting the events.

Since then, many Gazans say they have been living under a pall of fear — not of Israel this time but of Hamas.

 

These are not ideals compatible with western liberal democracy.

 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

14 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

From what you've posted here, I'm sure you don't.

***edit to add***

This is, in a nutshell, what is wrong with the Palestinian mindset.

There is something wrong with the actions of both sides. But one side here (the pro-Palestinian) can't see anything wrong with these actions. 

That's why this problem will never be solved. 

It won't be solved because you keep thinking of the Palestinians and Americans who want Justice for Palestinians as a collective. 

The random anonymous internet poster you responded to does not speak for anyone but himself. 

And once you have that collective justification in your mind, all Americans who support Palestine are nowthis and all Palestinians may as well be firing the rockets themselves. You've done this multiple times today. 

It's simple. One side has power. That side alone has to begin the process of giving the other basic human rights. 

[NowThis 931]

23 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

From what you've posted here, I'm sure you don't.

***edit to add***

This is, in a nutshell, what is wrong with the Palestinian mindset.

There is something wrong with the actions of both sides. But one side here (the pro-Palestinian) can't see anything wrong with these actions. 

That's why this problem will never be solved. 

the Jews have all the power, that is why the problem will never be solved. The problem being the occupation. 

[Asithappens 974]

I don't require anything as  a "collective". 

Israel is the better US ally in that region, but a factor of magnitude over the Palestinians. 

Things aren't nearly as simple as you think they are. 

[NowThis 931]

6 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Here are some of the actions of Hamas that some seem to find ok, even "nothing wrong".

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-hamas.html

 

Hamas security forces moved quickly to quell the protests that brought hundreds of people into the streets in at least four camps and towns across Gaza this month to demand better living conditions.

The security forces beat demonstrators, raided homes and detained organizers, journalists and participants, about 1,000 people in all. Along with the uniformed officers, masked, plainclothes Hamas enforcers armed with pistols, batons and wooden rods attacked the protesters, according to witnesses, and prevented journalists and human rights workers from documenting the events.

Since then, many Gazans say they have been living under a pall of fear — not of Israel this time but of Hamas.

 

These are not ideals compatible with western liberal democracy.

 

Israel shoots protestors to death as standard practice. That is not compatible with western liberal democracy.  

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, Asithappens said:

I don't require anything as  a "collective". 

Israel is the better US ally in that region, but a factor of magnitude over the Palestinians. 

Things aren't nearly as simple as you think they are. 

the irony of calling someone else a simple person.  Why does being an ally forgive all their since or make them better? It's meaningless. 

The US has allied with brutal dictatorships in the past, who were 'better' than the opposition, still meaningless. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Just now, Asithappens said:

I don't require anything as  a "collective". 

Israel is the better US ally in that region, but a factor of magnitude over the Palestinians. 

Things aren't nearly as simple as you think they are. 

Of course they are. The Palestinians can't be effective allies. They live in an internment camp.  What can they provide from there?  This is about human rights. It's that simple. 

As far as Hamas goes, they are a prison gang offering food and protection to prisoners. If you want to get rid of the prison gang, you have to get rid of the prison.  

[NowThis 931]

28 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Israel is surrounded by countries that desire to wipe it off the face of the earth. Some of those countries even espouse that view as their official, national policy.

Both sides are effed up. Imo, Israel is less effed up.

And, while some here seem to slight this fact, the Palestinians will (imo) never be allies to the US. They were dancing for joy after 9/11. Do you think that somehow they (Palestinians) would suddenly "like" the US if the US turned against Israel and supported them? That's not how Middle East politics works. 

lol, this isnt' 1973.  All the surrounding nations are not saliva dripping wolves. Name the countries that want to wipe Israel off.  You will fail. 

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

Of course they are. The Palestinians can't be effective allies. They live in an internment camp.  What can they provide from there?  This is about human rights. It's that simple. 

As far as Hamas goes, they are a prison gang offering food and protection to prisoners. If you want to get rid of the prison gang, you have to get rid of the prison.  

 

 

round em up and drop them off in an arab country

[NowThis 931]

Just now, FondrenRoad said:

Of course they are. The Palestinians can't be effective allies. They live in an internment camp.  What can they provide from there?  This is about human rights. It's that simple. 

As far as Hamas goes, they are a prison gang offering food and protection to prisoners. If you want to get rid of the prison gang, you have to get rid of the prison.  

you know they won the last election in 2006.  It's a legitimate organization, even met with Jimmy Carter a CHRISTIAN preacher - also a former President IIRC.  Hamas has also offered a truce to the 1967 borders, a "hudna", just as the Arab League has. Right now, only Syria is hard line anti Israel. 

1973 is over. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

Just now, Smax said:

 

 

round em up and drop them off in an arab country

They are in one. 

[bad_teammate 13132]

20 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Israel is surrounded by countries that desire to wipe it off the face of the earth. Some of those countries even espouse that view as their official, national policy.

Do tell.

20 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

That's why this problem will never be solved. 

Oh it can absolutely be "solved". As I mentioned upthread, Israel is enjoying a historically anomalous moment of tremendous military power and advantage. Send the US into an economic depression and have populist movements decry massive foreign entanglements and calculations start to change and go in a very bad direction for the state of Israel.

You can see, right now, distaste with Israel's cruelty growing and rising. And, most importantly, it is not just coming from right-wing anti-Semites. As young people grow up further away from the specter of the Holocaust, the need to incessantly defend Israel dies among progressives and the anti-Semitism of the right will not be held down forever.

This is the right time to establish lasting peace.

[bad_teammate 13132]

The slavering wolves are the ones in this thread who advocate genocide and ethnic cleansing. And none of those people are pro-Palestine.

[NowThis 931]

3 minutes ago, bad_teammate said:

Do tell.

Oh it can absolutely be "solved". As I mentioned upthread, Israel is enjoying a historically anomalous moment of tremendous military power and advantage. Send the US into an economic depression and have populist movements decry massive foreign entanglements and calculations start to change and go in a very bad direction for the state of Israel.

You can see, right now, distaste with Israel's cruelty growing and rising. And, most importantly, it is not just coming from right-wing anti-Semites. As young people grow up further away from the specter of the Holocaust, the need to incessantly defend Israel dies among progressives and the anti-Semitism of the right will not be held down forever.

This is the right time to establish lasting peace.

as Israel has become more and more of an ethnofascist entity, the progressive liberals of the 1960s who defended Israel as a bastion of socialism (which it was), have turned against Israel. Back then the WASPy right wing, ie Nixon LBJ were very wary of Jews and their encroaching power - to this day Pat Buchanan is a paleo-con critical of Israel. Then the right has transformed into Whites + Jews = "us" vs. them; 9/11 bolstered that idea, so did the 2 Iraq wars.  Now it's western cultural chauvinism championed by the right with Israel as a beacon of western supremacy, a proxy army to defeat "them".  The ultra far right , is anti-semite, but that is a tiny percentage of the right; the Right has many flavors you see. 

[hpslugga 4042]

53 minutes ago, NowThis said:

lol, this isnt' 1973.  All the surrounding nations are not saliva dripping wolves. Name the countries that want to wipe Israel off.  You will fail. 

Even in 1973, that rhetoric was still a bunch of bullshit

[Zavala 1384]

https://medium.com/@zanting/ira-greenstein-jared-kushner-s-criminal-deal-with-israel-behind-u-s-873da65223ce

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/the-latest-turks-say-us-ignores-international-law-on-golan/ar-BBVd554?OCID=ansmsnnews11

https://www.rt.com/business/317906-oil-golan-heights-israel/

[hpslugga 4042]

6 hours ago, Chrispy said:

Israel holds all of the power and Palestine still exists. If the roles were reversed, Israel would be wiped off the map. 

C’mon people, this is basic stuff. 

Basic stuff at which you perpetually fail.

[NowThis 931]

be careful what you put on Facebook, if you live in the west bank. 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190320-israel-arrests-palestinian-woman-for-a-facebook-post/?fbclid=IwAR1VA7akT4drixienw8DCTEO-_UH039SI-TfVSMyypKY4hxzIB0wcn3dLlo

Israel arrests Palestinian woman for a Facebook post

Israeli occupation forces arrested a 22-year-old Palestinian woman at a military checkpoint in the occupied West Bank city of Hebron after she posted a comment on Facebook on Al-Aqsa Mosque.

 

According to the Palestinian Prisoners’ Centre (PPC), Israel had arrested more than 500 Palestinians, including women and children, as a result of their social media posts by May last year.

The occupation state uses its “Cyber Unit” to monitor Palestinian social media posts, the centre added.

[bad_teammate 13132]

Ilhan Omar is great and this Tweet thread absolutely rules.

Hey, old Dems and psychotic evangelicals... the thing you're trying to do to silence progressives and people of color isn't working and it won't work.

[NowThis 931]

we must pay attention to the micro-details, the daily carnage, to appreciate the dictatorship.  The IDF routinely raids villages and refugee camps for minor reasons, terrorizing the residents, who clash and are shot, sometimes fatally.  Israeli actions are disproportionate to the objectives and innocents are murdered. 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-palestinian-search-and-rescue-volunteer-killed-by-israeli-army-in-west-bank-1.7062190?fbclid=IwAR35yADlUS4y-oS00r4FcQoLBuUdKeERPUBEbvQUAivLxJzhlfLaTS2DBKo

Israeli Army Kills Palestinian Medical Volunteer Wearing Reflective Vest, Report Says

Clashes erupt in refugee camp near West Bank city of Bethlehem when Israeli force entered to conduct arrests. Palestinian Health Ministry says Sajed Mizher was shot in the stomach despite wearing reflective vest and service uniform

A 17-year-old Palestinian search-and-rescue service volunteer died from a live gunshot wound Wednesday after being shot by the Israeli military when forces entered a refugee camp near the West Bank city of Bethlehem, the Palestinian Health Ministry reported.

Clashes erupted in the Deheisha refugee camp in the early morning hours when an Israeli force entered to conduct arrests, according to witnesses. The local Palestinian search rescue services was called in to take care of the wounded, with the teen, Sajed Mizher, among them. Reports say he was shot with a live bullet in the stomach.

According to the rescue services coordinator Mazen al-Azza, Munjed was wearing a reflective vest and his search and rescue service uniform when he was shot. Al-Azza said this showed the soldiers fired indiscriminately, shooting at the aid forces as well.

 

Edited March 27, 2019 by NowThis

[bad_teammate 13132]

 

[HenryJames 65884]

 

[NowThis 931]

7 minutes ago, HenryJames said:

 

making the fantastical "2 state solution" even deader than before. 

For those who don't know, Israel controls the darker brown shaded areas, the PA only the lighter areas and even within that, Israel has security control over much of the area.  This is the apartheid explained, the 'islands' of Arabs are movement restricted in their prison zones, takes hours to get anywhere when it should be 20 minutes.  Israel has no intention of a 2 state solution, they are lying to you every time on TV. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

22 minutes ago, NowThis said:

making the fantastical "2 state solution" even deader than before. 

For those who don't know, Israel controls the darker brown shaded areas, the PA only the lighter areas and even within that, Israel has security control over much of the area.  This is the apartheid explained, the 'islands' of Arabs are movement restricted in their prison zones, takes hours to get anywhere when it should be 20 minutes.  Israel has no intention of a 2 state solution, they are lying to you every time on TV. 

No, Israel continues to be after a 2 state solution.  Gaza is simply the entirety of the Palestinian state in their solution.  Always has been.  The plan in the West Bank has always been to disenfranchise and encumber in order to force Palestinians to leave.  Once the Palestinian population hits a low point, they'll claim full rights to the land and give the remaining handful of Palestinians token citizenship.

And even when they end up with the "Gaza only" solution, they still don't know what to do with Gaza itself except keep it a concentration camp.

This is textbook neo-genocide for the 2000s.  You can't just go in and wipe people out anymore, but you can make it so unlivable that they die naturally or leave if they can.  Oddly, the biggest wrench in the Israeli ethnostate's plans right now is Trumpists.  When the USA and Europe are trying to launch their own ethnostates, they aren't going to be taking on any Palestinians.  That creates a conundrum for Israeli racists.  They can't kill the Palestinians and they can't force them into America, so what to do?

Edited March 29, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, FondrenRoad said:

No, Israel continues to be after a 2 state solution.  Gaza is simply the entirety of the Palestinian state in their solution.  Always has been.  The plan in the West Bank has always been to disenfranchise and encumber in order to force Palestinians to leave.  Once the Palestinian population hits a low point, they'll claim full rights to the land and give the remaining handful of Palestinians token citizenship.

And even when they end up with the "Gaza only" solution, they still don't know what to do with Gaza itself except keep it a concentration camp.

This is textbook neo-genocide for the 2000s.  You can't just go in and wipe people out anymore, but you can make it so unlivable that they die naturally or leave if they can.  Oddly, the biggest wrench in the Israeli ethnostate's plans right now is Trumpists.  When the USA and Europe are trying to launch their own ethnostates, they aren't going to be taking on any Palestinians.  That creates a conundrum for Israeli racists.  They can't kill the Palestinians and they can't force them into America, so what to do?

the WB Arab population isn't going to be so low that Israel will just annex it.  Even though the slow motion ethnic cleansing does force thousands to leave, natural growth will keep the numbers stable at about 2 million Arabs.  The Israel Arabs are about 20%, adding 2 million more Arabs isn't desirable to Israel, making the Arabs 35% - so with liberal Jews + Arabs, the right wing Jews could lose their majority. So the status quo will go on forever, Israel will cleverly just annex the big settlement blocks adjacent to the Israel proper and keep whining about how the Jews are victims, how they "cannot find a partner for peace" , "we offered, they rejected" etc. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

10 minutes ago, NowThis said:

the WB Arab population isn't going to be so low that Israel will just annex it.  Even though the slow motion ethnic cleansing does force thousands to leave, natural growth will keep the numbers stable at about 2 million Arabs.  The Israel Arabs are about 20%, adding 2 million more Arabs isn't desirable to Israel, making the Arabs 35% - so with liberal Jews + Arabs, the right wing Jews could lose their majority. So the status quo will go on forever, Israel will cleverly just annex the big settlement blocks adjacent to the Israel proper and keep whining about how the Jews are victims, how they "cannot find a partner for peace" , "we offered, they rejected" etc. 

Like I said, Israel is in a tough place.  Outright genocide is an impossibility in today's world, so they can't use that solution.  So they need a state that both supports their apartheid and is willing to take refugees.  That type of state doesn't exist.  They get a Trump who will allow them to drive all Palestinians to the Jordan River without killing them, but won't take a single Palestinian refugee into America.  Or they get an Obama who would take refugees, but will push back hard against the apartheid that is causing refugees in the first place.

Really though, maybe genocide isn't impossible. Let's say Israel eradicated all Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank tomorrow.  Would we even do anything?  I don't think so.  Perhaps Netanyahu gives us too much credit.  He could probably get away with his desired final solution.  Well, Israel could get away with it.  The leader himself would probably have to be a sacrificial lamb.

Edited March 29, 2019 by FondrenRoad

[NowThis 931]

i understand Israel's need for security , but they go to sadistic levels of cruelty with the shooting dead of hundreds of protestors, disfiguring and disabling tens of thousands, arresting thousands, suppressing speech, demolishing homes, cutting off the water, withholding tax revenue. It's insane how badly they treat the regular person. No wonder the Arabs want to kill every Jew they see.  Israel needs to back off.  I hope the next POTUS (Bernie my man - a Jew with conscience!) will pressure them do improve the basics.  Obama was gutless until the end with the UN vote, largely symbolic.  And all this evil is just the Israeli government, did not mention the settler criminals. 

I don't like to use the word genocide as it diminishes the argument. Ethnic cleansing with a cruel murderous dictatorship is more of an accurate description. 

In the late 80s, we had strong murmurs of Jordan taking back the WB. Wish that had happened and Egypt take the Gaza.  

I'm happy to see the public finally taking note of this issue, thanks to Ilhan Omar and the progressive Dems.  I'm seeing some light in this darkness. Just need to get rid of this right wing + AIPAC death grip on the situation here. 

[FondrenRoad 4378]

9 minutes ago, NowThis said:

i understand Israel's need for security , but they go to sadistic levels of cruelty with the shooting dead of hundreds of protestors, disfiguring and disabling tens of thousands, arresting thousands, suppressing speech, demolishing homes, cutting off the water, withholding tax revenue. It's insane how badly they treat the regular person. No wonder the Arabs want to kill every Jew they see.  Israel needs to back off.  I hope the next POTUS (Bernie my man - a Jew with conscience!) will pressure them do improve the basics.  Obama was gutless until the end with the UN vote, largely symbolic.  And all this evil is just the Israeli government, did not mention the settler criminals. 

I don't like to use the word genocide as it diminishes the argument. Ethnic cleansing with a cruel murderous dictatorship is more of an accurate description. 

In the late 80s, we had strong murmurs of Jordan taking back the WB. Wish that had happened and Egypt take the Gaza.  

I'm happy to see the public finally taking note of this issue, thanks to Ilhan Omar and the progressive Dems.  I'm seeing some light in this darkness. Just need to get rid of this right wing + AIPAC death grip on the situation here. 

100% Israel is doing all that to encourage Palestinian emigration, up to and including the settlers' actions.  The real issue for them is that the Palestinians have nowhere to go right now.  An ethnonationalist Israel is in lock step with an ethnonationalist America, and the EU is in disarray over ethnonationalism as well.  Trump fucking loves the idea of no Palestinians in Israel, but he isn't going to let them walk through his white nationalist door.

It actually worked better for Israeli ethnonationalists under the soft apartheid of Olmert, Sharon, and Barak when Israel pretended to give a shit about Palestinians, but limited their options, and America and the EU were seeking diversity and gave a shit about refugees.

Eventually, its all going to end badly.  Can you imagine living your whole life from birth to death in an internment camp?  Having kids and knowing they'll share the same fate?  Not sure what I'd do, but I'm the aggressive sort anyway.  I've fought over much less.  "Live free or die."

[bad_teammate 13132]

Potential chemical weapons attack on civilians.

 

[bad_teammate 13132]

The current Israeli government is full of racist scum

 

[HenryJames 65884]