Israel

[NowThis 931]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yeah, where are their A&M, Baylor, or Liberty universities where they crank out thousands of dipshits on an annual basis to influence where we're going?

of course more Evangelicals exist and have more votes, but the money that goes directly into pro Israeli policies comes from AIPAC. The actual legislation is shaped by AIPAC, such as anti BDS which has cancered into many states, that's all coming from AIPAC lawyers.  The shaping of settlement policies, actual Israeli specifics, the Evangelicals are too lazy and stupid to shape that - all they care about is Jesus returning, they dont' care are BDS, settllements, funding to the PA - the daily details are in the hands of AIPAC

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Yeah, the Palestinians are being oppressed. And they are attacking Israel. 

But, I go back to which group is the better US ally.

Hint: it aint the Palestinians. 

We could help the Palestinians to the nth degree and they would still hate the US. 

The day the US voted yes to an Israeli homeland, Muslims and Arabs in general hated the US.

[bolverk 29,394]

9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

The day the US voted yes to an Israeli homeland, Muslims and Arabs in general hated the US.

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.

[NowThis 931]

21 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

Yeah, the Palestinians are being oppressed. And they are attacking Israel. 

But, I go back to which group is the better US ally.

Hint: it aint the Palestinians. 

We could help the Palestinians to the nth degree and they would still hate the US. 

the Saudi regime is a better US ally than their domestic opposition who probably dislikes the US. So what if someone is a US ally? It's meaningless.

Edited April 2, 2019 by NowThis

[bolverk 29,394]

48 minutes ago, NowThis said:

the Saudi regime is a better US ally than their domestic opposition who probably dislikes the US. So what if someone is a US ally? It's meaningless.

I assume you're referring to the Wahhabis. If that's the case, can you tell me how they're really the opposition and how the Saudi family has tamped down on their political/religious power?

This isn't a silly political "gotcha." I'd honestly like to know as it's not a part of the world that I obsess over or have given a great deal of time to research.

[NowThis 931]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I assume you're referring to the Wahhabis. If that's the case, can you tell me how they're really the opposition and how the Saudi family has tamped down on their political/religious power?

This isn't a silly political "gotcha." I'd honestly like to know as it's not a part of the world that I obsess over or have given a great deal of time to research.

Saudi opposition runs the spectrum of politics from far right to secular liberals , to Shia to tribal groups. 

The rule of the Al Saud faces political opposition from four sources: Sunni Islamist activism, liberal critics, including an underground green party, the Shia minority – particularly in the Eastern Province; and long-standing tribal and regional particularistic opponents (for example in the Hejaz).^[8

 

 

However, i think you missed the point of (not to derail the discussion to Saudi) 

 -Being a US ally doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of 'goodness'. It's a meaningless argument to say 'we support Israel because they are an ally'. No shit. But it's not a good reason.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

20 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Saudi opposition runs the spectrum of politics from far right to secular liberals , to Shia to tribal groups. 

The rule of the Al Saud faces political opposition from four sources: Sunni Islamist activism, liberal critics, including an underground green party, the Shia minority – particularly in the Eastern Province; and long-standing tribal and regional particularistic opponents (for example in the Hejaz).^[8

 

 

However, i think you missed the point of (not to derail the discussion to Saudi) 

 -Being a US ally doesn't mean a damn thing in terms of 'goodness'. It's a meaningless argument to say 'we support Israel because they are an ally'. No shit. But it's not a good reason.  

We support them in part because of their unique location in the ME. They give us a geopolitical and military foothold.

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

We support them in part because of their unique location in the ME. They give us a geopolitical and military foothold.

you talking about Israel I presume.  But the 20th century is over, the US can engage in wars against any nation without having a foothold in anything. So your point is very overrated. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, NowThis said:

you talking about Israel I presume.  But the 20th century is over, the US can engage in wars against any nation without having a foothold in anything. So your point is very overrated. 

Yes Israel.  Land is never over rated. Having friendly countries you can fly over, and land in, and stage fronts from is not that overrated.

[NowThis 931]

Just now, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yes Israel.  Land is never over rated. Having friendly countries you can fly over, and land in, and stage fronts from is not that overrated.

the US isn't going to stage anything from Israel ever. Israel is so small, no need to fly over it for any reason. Besides, the US military can fly over any mideast nation without a problem. So your point has no value. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, NowThis said:

the US isn't going to stage anything from Israel ever. Israel is so small, no need to fly over it for any reason. Besides, the US military can fly over any mideast nation without a problem. So your point has no value. 

Gosh you must be a military genius.

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Gosh you must be a military genius.

in comparison, yes. I need you to give me scenarios where the US can use  Israeli soil as a launching point to attack neighboring Arab nations.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, NowThis said:

in comparison, yes. I need you to give me scenarios where the US can use  Israeli soil as a launching point to attack neighboring Arab nations.  

I don't have anything specific to give, but having land in a region is always valuable. Having the option to use their bases is a valuable asset. As I said it's one reason we have them as an ally.  

Who knows what covert intelligence gathering installations we have in Israel. I'm sure there are lots of scenarios way above both of our pay grades.

[NowThis 931]

1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I don't have anything specific to give, but having land in a region is always valuable. Having the option to use their bases is a valuable asset. As I said it's one reason we have them as an ally.  

Who knows what covert intelligence gathering installations we have in Israel. I'm sure there are lots of scenarios way above both of our pay grades.

exactly, you are just speculating. The US doesn't need their bases as the US has been in Iraq for 28 years and in Syria for about 5 years at least. Before, the US was in Lebanon, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia with boots on the ground. Israeli soil or airspace has no military value to the US military whatsoever.  

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

Just now, NowThis said:

exactly, you are just speculating. The US doesn't need their bases as the US has been in Iraq for 28 years and in Syria for about 5 years at least. Before, the US was in Lebanon, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia with boots on the ground. Israeli soil or airspace has no military value to the US military whatsoever.  

And so are you, unless you have some special insight into military strategy of the US.

SA with boots on the ground gave us 9-11. Iraq could tell us to get out.  Syria ?  That's not what I'd call a stable country, Iraq either for that matter.

We get no in country backlash being on Israeli soil.  Israel is just about the only stable country in the ME that is an ally. SA is a paper tiger in terms of alliance and security for the royal family IMO.

[WhatTheBuck 28,703]

5 hours ago, bolverk said:

That approach is the same as wiping Israel off the map and either would result in the expulsion of an ethnic group, Radovan.

Just come out and admit that you are in favor of ethnic cleansing. Do you understand what that makes you?

Likud?

[NowThis 931]

32 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

And so are you, unless you have some special insight into military strategy of the US.

SA with boots on the ground gave us 9-11. Iraq could tell us to get out.  Syria ?  That's not what I'd call a stable country, Iraq either for that matter.

We get no in country backlash being on Israeli soil.  Israel is just about the only stable country in the ME that is an ally. SA is a paper tiger in terms of alliance and security for the royal family IMO.

if Israel did not exist, the US military ability in the mideast would not degrade. Israel is irrelevant. The US military doesn't care about backlash. Nothing can stop the US from doing anything it wants militarily in the mideast.  Israel can do whatever it needs as well. Lets not pretend the US is dependent on Israel soil for its projects. 

[HenryJames 65,884]

 

[Nice Guy Eddie 13,406]

Seems like Netanyahu will sell his soul, any policy, whatever in order to stay in power.

One party won’t win a majority or even get close on Tuesday but it will get interesting if Netanyahu can’t pull together s coalition.

[JimmyJames 12,271]

LOL at the notion we should support Israel so we can launch Middle East attacks from its land. 

We support Israel because of very powerful domestic interests that compel us to do so. Along with maybe it being the right thing to do, which can always be debated. Not sure what we really get in return though. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

2 minutes ago, JimmyJames said:

LOL at the notion we should support Israel so we can launch Middle East attacks from its land. 

We support Israel because of very powerful domestic interests that compel us to do so. Along with maybe it being the right thing to do, which can always be debated. Not sure what we really get in return though. 

LOL at the notion that you don't think that US has assets on the ground in Israel in human and technological (intelligence gathering).  And that was never my main contention, it is a reason among many why we support Israel, but hey cherry picking, and poor reading comprehension seems to be an issue with many here.

 

Your other reasons are right in line with why I'd say we support them.

[WhatTheBuck 28,703]

I'd like to invent a new word. I haven't seen anyone use this word before. But I think it's appropriate. 

Netanyahu is a Jewzi. 

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

LOL at the notion that you don't think that US has assets on the ground in Israel in human and technological (intelligence gathering).  And that was never my main contention, it is a reason among many why we support Israel, but hey cherry picking, and poor reading comprehension seems to be an issue with many here.

 

Your other reasons are right in line with why I'd say we support them.

the technological intel can be done by the US.   Israel though is the world's best at human intel, ie Mossad, they have penetrated ISIS by their support of some ISIS commanders. They also have supported Al Nusra Front (a branch of Al Qaeda) who do whatever they are ordered by Mossad, IDF operations, (ie search for dead IDF bodies from the 1980s Lebanon war). Israel also has mounds of intel on Hezbollah and Iran. So Israel is a localized CIA for the US. But the military aspect of Israel has little to no value, as we know the US military can do whatever the fuck it wants to in the middle east. 

[Cacti 191]

1 hour ago, NowThis said:

But the military aspect of Israel has little to no value...

The Pentagon—as well as Congress—disagrees with you. The U.S. stocks well over one billion dollars of military equipment on Israeli soil. This stockpile (munitions, vehicles, hospital beds, etc.) is under our control and for our use, if needed. Israel has access to these stockpiles in an emergency.

And former NATO Supreme Commander and Secretary of State Alexander Haig also disagrees with you. Over 30 years ago, he said "Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security."

Maybe you ought to reconsider your “Israel has little or no value” statement.

[NowThis 931]

32 minutes ago, Cacti said:

The Pentagon—as well as Congress—disagrees with you. The U.S. stocks well over one billion dollars of military equipment on Israeli soil. This stockpile (munitions, vehicles, hospital beds, etc.) is under our control and for our use, if needed. Israel has access to these stockpiles in an emergency.

And former NATO Supreme Commander and Secretary of State Alexander Haig also disagrees with you. Over 30 years ago, he said "Israel is the largest American aircraft carrier in the world that cannot be sunk, does not carry even one American soldier, and is located in a critical region for American national security."

Maybe you ought to reconsider your “Israel has little or no value” statement.

the US equipment, as you stated, is for Israeli use and utmost importance to THEM, not to the US. It's part of the aid package and has dozens if not hundred of US military handlers on the ground on any given day for assistance. 

Israel has no military value to the US at this moment. In Haig's time, Syria was a Soviet buddy state, so maybe he was thinking in US-USSR cold war terms. Egypt flipped in the 1970s with Sadat to be pro US. Anyway, Israel has no military value to the US at all. There's nothing the US can't do in the mideast NOTHING. The US doesn't need Israel's help whatsoever.

Conservatives, like you, love to exaggerate Israel's importance to the US - the motivation is western judeo-christian / racial supremacist in origin. Israel is the hammer on the Arab scum, it's a proxy for your racism and hatred of Muslims.  Bloody the Arabs! 9/11 mutha fucka! That's all that matters. White power! 

[Cacti 191]

47 minutes ago, NowThis said:

the US equipment, as you stated, is for Israeli use and utmost importance to THEM, not to the US. It's part of the aid package and has dozens if not hundred of US military handlers on the ground on any given day for assistance. 

Israel has no military value to the US at this moment. In Haig's time, Syria was a Soviet buddy state, so maybe he was thinking in US-USSR cold war terms. Egypt flipped in the 1970s with Sadat to be pro US. Anyway, Israel has no military value to the US at all. There's nothing the US can't do in the mideast NOTHING. The US doesn't need Israel's help whatsoever.

Conservatives, like you, love to exaggerate Israel's importance to the US - the motivation is western judeo-christian / racial supremacist in origin. Israel is the hammer on the Arab scum, it's a proxy for your racism and hatred of Muslims.  Bloody the Arabs! 9/11 mutha fucka! That's all that matters. White power! 

Your first two paragraphs are nothing more than doubling down on an erroneous opinion. No facts, just baseless suppositions and rationalizations.

Your third paragraph doesn’t deserve a detailed response, but I will say this: there’s no need to call me a racist or supremacist or hater other than to hide the fact that you can’t support your opinion and you want to end the debate. And end it you did.

[Smax 3,800]

the US equipment, as you stated, is for Israeli use and utmost importance to THEM, not to the US. It's part of the aid package and has dozens if not hundred of US military handlers on the ground on any given day for assistance. 
Israel has no military value to the US at this moment. In Haig's time, Syria was a Soviet buddy state, so maybe he was thinking in US-USSR cold war terms. Egypt flipped in the 1970s with Sadat to be pro US. Anyway, Israel has no military value to the US at all. There's nothing the US can't do in the mideast NOTHING. The US doesn't need Israel's help whatsoever.
Conservatives, like you, love to exaggerate Israel's importance to the US - the motivation is western judeo-christian / racial supremacist in origin. Israel is the hammer on the Arab scum, it's a proxy for your racism and hatred of Muslims.  Bloody the Arabs! 9/11 mutha fucka! That's all that matters. White power! 

Wow, someone needs a timeout

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Cacti said:

Your first two paragraphs are nothing more than doubling down on an erroneous opinion. No facts, just baseless suppositions and rationalizations.

Your third paragraph doesn’t deserve a detailed response, but I will say this: there’s no need to call me a racist or supremacist or hater other than to hide the fact that you can’t support your opinion and you want to end the debate. And end it you did.

wrong on everything. 

The US equipment on Israeli soil is solely for the benefit of Israel. Duh.  This is very easy, not sure why you are having a difficult time processing the most basic fact. 

Right now, liberals have abandoned or are abandoning Israel, except for Jewish liberals.  Right wingers are playing ethno politics, a fav of Trumpians and aggy. So it's not a stretch at all to say that only racists and Jews support Israel currently. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

4 hours ago, NowThis said:

the US equipment, as you stated, is for Israeli use and utmost importance to THEM, not to the US. It's part of the aid package and has dozens if not hundred of US military handlers on the ground on any given day for assistance. 

Israel has no military value to the US at this moment. In Haig's time, Syria was a Soviet buddy state, so maybe he was thinking in US-USSR cold war terms. Egypt flipped in the 1970s with Sadat to be pro US. Anyway, Israel has no military value to the US at all. There's nothing the US can't do in the mideast NOTHING. The US doesn't need Israel's help whatsoever.

Conservatives, like you, love to exaggerate Israel's importance to the US - the motivation is western judeo-christian / racial supremacist in origin. Israel is the hammer on the Arab scum, it's a proxy for your racism and hatred of Muslims.  Bloody the Arabs! 9/11 mutha fucka! That's all that matters. White power! 

Wow you have some issues don't you....  Love the whole racist/anti Muslim angle ya got going there.  L

[DixonHur 11,154]

The only reason Evangelicals give a shit about Israel is because of the rapture.  Period.

[NowThis 931]

4 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Wow you have some issues don't you....  Love the whole racist/anti Muslim angle ya got going there.  L

no, you got it backwards. I'm stating the obvious issues with your side. 

[Onboard 2.0 9,083]

18 minutes ago, NowThis said:

no, you got it backwards. I'm stating the obvious issues with your side. 

No those were your words.

[NowThis 931]

2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

No those were your words.

yes, sherlock.  Anyway, more to come on this thread on other sub-topics. 

[Asithappens 974]

5 hours ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Wow you have some issues don't you....  Love the whole racist/anti Muslim angle ya got going there.  L

He does have some issues.

Iirc, he was the poster who mistakenly ( I don't want to say lied) stated that  Israel does not recognize mixed-religion marriages. 

If he clarified his statement, then good for him.

Edited April 8, 2019 by Asithappens

[NowThis 931]

1 hour ago, Asithappens said:

He does have some issues.

Iirc, he was the poster who mistakenly ( I don't want to say lied) stated that  Israel does not recognize mixed-religion marriages. 

If he clarified his statement, then good for him.

Israel does not recognize mixed religion marriages which occur in Israel. However, those from other nations are recognized. So, if a Jewish American man and his Christian wife migrate from the US to Israel, that's recognized. 

My issues are with the right wing motivation(s) which need to be exposed for greater clarity on the big picture.  Right wingers have issues with white supremacy, which is their underlying support for Israel. 

[bolverk 29,394]

My issue is that some believe the State of Israel is entitled to unilaterally annex territory in clear violation of international law, that military occupation has resulted in decades of oppression by refusing an entire population (a distinct ethnic group) the right to self-determination, and that those who oppose these policies are often accused of being anti-semitic due to the unique history of the Jewish people. 

While I generally view this as a gross injustice, of which there are many in international affairs (Crimea for example), my emotional investment to this issue is due to our collective complicity for supporting them. Moreover, I acknowledge, accept, and wholeheartedly support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself, but I don't think they deserve a "pass" to turn around and ghettoize an entire people for a couple of generations to then just say "Fuck it. We want it all." which is precisely what Bibi and the Likud are finally admitting out in the open.

[hpslugga 4,042]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

My issue is that some believe the State of Israel is entitled to unilaterally annex territory in clear violation of international law, that military occupation has resulted in decades of oppression by refusing an entire population (a distinct ethnic group) the right to self-determination, and that those who oppose these policies are often accused of being anti-semitic due to the unique history of the Jewish people. 

While I generally view this as a gross injustice, of which there are many in international affairs (Crimea for example), my emotional investment to this issue is due to our collective complicity for supporting them. Moreover, I acknowledge, accept, and wholeheartedly support the right of Israel to exist and defend itself, but I don't think they deserve a "pass" to turn around and ghettoize an entire people for a couple of generations to then just say "Fuck it. We want it all." which is precisely what Bibi and the Likud are finally admitting out in the open.

Any sane, moral person would take that exact position for that exact reason.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

Fuck Bibi.

That is all.

[Bruh Man 3,160]

[zork 629]

19 minutes ago, Bruh Man said:

How many of those people in the graphic above got to vote for HAMAS as the leadership for the Palestinians?(I'm guessing those in the red and possibly any of the other Palestinians listed/represented in the whole graphic)

[bolverk 29,394]

6 hours ago, zork said:

How many of those people in the graphic above got to vote for HAMAS as the leadership for the Palestinians?(I'm guessing those in the red and possibly any of the other Palestinians listed/represented in the whole graphic)

That's equivalent to saying they had the privilege to vote in a student council election.

[Johnny Sack 8,397]

56 minutes ago, bolverk said:

That's equivalent to saying they had the privilege to vote in a student council election.

Voting in Hamas directly resulted in the blockade and open air prison you libs bitch about.  Before that, when rockets weren’t being fired into Gaza, there was no blockade.  

[NowThis 931]

[Asithappens 974]

38 minutes ago, NowThis said:

And quotes just as damning can be found on the other side, but you (again) fail to recognize that.

Both sides are shitbags in many ways. 

But again, when it comes to being an ally of the US? Israel over the Palestinians/Hamas 8 days a week. That's a no-brainer.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Asithappens

[NowThis 931]

4 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

And quotes just as damning can be found on the other side, but you (again) fail to recognize that.

Both sides are shitbags in many ways. 

But again, when it comes to being an ally of the US? Israel over the Palestinians/Hamas 8 days a week. That's a no-brainer.

being an ally of the US isn't relevant, lots of scum are allies. What amateurs fail to recognize is the lack of equivalency, Israel is a military dictatorship over the Palestinians, so the Palestinians have been right from the beginning, meaning the last 120 years, 100%. 

[Asithappens 974]

Just now, NowThis said:

being an ally of the US isn't relevant, lots of scum are allies. What amateurs fail to recognize is the lack of equivalency, Israel is a military dictatorship over the Palestinians, so the Palestinians have been right from the beginning, meaning the last 120 years, 100%. 

Being an ally is very relevant. Not to you, it seems. But it is relevant. 

But you do you.

[NowThis 931]

Just now, Asithappens said:

Being an ally is very relevant. Not to you, it seems. But it is relevant. 

But you do you.

Saudi Arabia is an ally, white South Africa was an ally. The question is who is right -- the South African blacks or the US ally apartheid regime?

[Asithappens 974]

2 minutes ago, NowThis said:

Saudi Arabia is an ally, white South Africa was an ally. The question is who is right -- the South African blacks or the US ally apartheid regime?

Yes, the Palestinians are replete with moral authority. 

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. (that's a good motto for Hamas, actually).

Again, both sides are shitbags in many ways. Again, you refuse to recognize that fact.

Laters.

[Hugo Stiglitz 23,356]

This should end well

 

[Asithappens 974]

40 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This should end well

 

Will the Electoral College swings the vote to Bibi.

Wait....