Israel

[tchookem 3900]

Glad i went when i did.  

Was that the only time Santa would approve your PTO?

[G650 14243]

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

If you total Israeli civilians killed by Palestinian terrorists and Palestinian civilians killed by Israeli military and police, it is not even close.   Nobody condones Hamas terrorism, but it is not like Israel is some innocent actor if you compare death tolls.  

When you are the weaker party you use terrorism.  Which is why supporters of a Jewish state bombed hotels and such at the birth of Israel.  If you do not have an army equal to the opposition, that happens.   And no, Israel cannot not respond to that horrible attack on its citizens.   I do not care how abused you are, executing women and children will not convince anyone of the rightness of your cause, and sure as shit does not work when you style yourself as a victim.  Sad all around. 

Yeah my reaction to this whole news is basically

 

[G650 14243]

2 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

A: Israel was attacked. Do they not have a right to defend themselves? 
B: Palestinians are being terrorized by Israel every day. The Hamas military commander Muhammad Al-Deif called the operation “Al-Aqsa Storm” and said that the assault on Israel was a response to attacks on women, the desecration of the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem and the ongoing siege of Gaza.

A: Israel didn’t desecrate the Al-Aqsa mosque, some Jewish people visited it. It wasn’t sanctioned by the Israeli government. Israel has a blockage of Gaza because it’s controlled by Hamas, a terrorist group that regularly shoots rockets at Israel and sends suicide bombers to kill Israelis
B: Hamas sends suicide bombers to kill Israelis because Israel keeps stealing Palestinian lands 

A: Israel didn’t steal any land. They won the land in a war the Palestinians started 

B: The Palestinians only started a war because the Jews were forced into their land

A: Jews migrated to Palestine because the British said they could. 
B: Palestinians do not recognize the Balfour Declaration and don’t like the British 

A: Well they should of fought harder to not be conquered by the British during WW1

 

The same arguments over and over again 

Tbh, this stuff is all downstream of Sykes Picot, and I have no idea how it will ever be solved at this point because so many interests have become entrenched.

[Brian Fantana 6680]

33 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You moved pretty smoothly from “what if Ukrainians did these things” to “it’s OK if Hamas does.”  It’s pretty clear you just want to say it’s OK for Hamas to do these things so why bring in the Ukrainians (who manage to not be terrorists despite being occupied and weaker and subject to real, no-shit genocidal treatment) to the conversation? 

No one here thinks it's ok to go after non-strategic targets. This is a ridiculous strawman. I support revolution of the oppressed, violent if necessary, but going after civilian targets is awful. As has been said before, this is a big reason why support for Palestinians is hard to come by in America, and it's perfectly valid, even though the vast majority of them just want to survive and live their lives in the lands of their ancestors.

As to the second part, you're leaving out some crucial details that make this an entirely unfair comparison, such as the Ukrainians have had the backing of the American military for like a decade now, including billions of dollars worth of training and equipment, which has ramped up to 11 since the beginning of the invasion. Imagine if Russia was effectively propped up by NATO and the American military, like Ukraine currently is, and I wonder just how different the Ukrainians' poise and tactics might be in that scenario.

Man, it's incredible how reactionary some of you are about Israel/Palestine, even if you hold what I consider to be otherwise good politics.

[Bullneck 19073]

3 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

My guy, you need to educate yourself on what's actually going on in Gaza. I don't know if your head is deliberately buried in the sand or not, but they DO peacefully protest, A LOT, and they get killed for it, A LOT.

Israel has committed the crime of apartheid. They have been squeezing the life out of Palestinians and occupied Palestinian territories for years. Violent revolution is the natural and only course of action these people have left. They have no hope. The Israeli and American war machines have them crushed under their boots. What choice to they have but to rise up? Who is going to come to their aid when anyone who tries will be met with the barrel of a gun courtesy of the American military industrial complex?

Israel continues to destroy and/or annex Palestinian property/lands at a steady rate, slowly squeezing them to death, often displacing and/or killing hundreds or thousands at a time seemingly indiscriminately. Israeli settlers often forcefully displace Palestinians from their own homes, and these actions are sanctioned by the state. If they are retaliated against, the result is more murder. They imprison and torture Palestinian detainees regularly, including children. They deliberately destroy the environment in Gaza, including pouring concrete in water wells, destroying crops by spraying herbicides in the buffer zone despite international outcry. They murder or deports journalists (or drone strike their offices) that try to show the world what is happening.

The fact that we still back these people with full-throated support across the board and with the full might of our military is disgusting.

Israel has turned into the very oppressors that they and we previously guarded against.

So let me ask you a question:

• You know there are Arabs of all kinds walking around Israel.  I mentioned that in Goyim Observations.  How do they differ from those in Gaza?
• You know there are Arabs in the West Bank who aren't blowing shit up all the time (that said, there are checkpoints you have to drive through and we were told not to stop the car or pick up hitchhikers).  How do they differ from those in Gaza?

My impression of Hamas and Gaza is best summed up in that meme about the guy on a bike putting a stick in his spokes and then blaming someone else.  

Maybe you can speak to why they are being squeezed and whether they had the opportunity to take a more rational course.  I'll hang up and listen.

[Bullneck 19073]

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah I mean I think it's important to note that I understand everything bad about Hamas. My sympathy extends to the Palestinian people, and my anger towards Israel stems from the fact that they are quickly becoming the oppressors they have long fled, and that descent into fascism is firmly backed by us.

Since a lot of what goes on in the Middle East is layer upon layer of scar tissue, can you go back in time to some of the "original sin" of this conflict?

Can you tell us a little about Black September and why they attacked the Israeli athletes at Munich? Were there Israeli aggressions prior to that?  

When did Israel wall off Gaza and was it in response to anything in particular? 

I hear you when you say there will be collateral damage to innocent Palestinians.  Was there an opposition political party in Gaza that is trying to prevent the escalation of violence?  How many rockets have been fired at Israel in the past two days, and how does all that get hidden?

[Bullneck 19073]

2 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Do you feel like the Ukrainians should use passive resistance against Putin after being invaded as well?

Did Israel invade Gaza?  

[956 Worldwide 34702]

37 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

No one here thinks it's ok to go after non-strategic targets. This is a ridiculous strawman. I support revolution of the oppressed, violent if necessary, but going after civilian targets is awful. As has been said before, this is a big reason why support for Palestinians is hard to come by in America, and it's perfectly valid, even though the vast majority of them just want to survive and live their lives in the lands of their ancestors.

As to the second part, you're leaving out some crucial details that make this an entirely unfair comparison, such as the Ukrainians have had the backing of the American military for like a decade now, including billions of dollars worth of training and equipment, which has ramped up to 11 since the beginning of the invasion. Imagine if Russia was effectively propped up by NATO and the American military, like Ukraine currently is, and I wonder just how different the Ukrainians' poise and tactics might be in that scenario.

Man, it's incredible how reactionary some of you are about Israel/Palestine, even if you hold what I consider to be otherwise good politics.

Ukraine was invaded in 2014 and did not receive any sort of kinetic U.S. aid in the form of a few dozen Javelins until (I believe, it may have been a year later) 2018 and nothing beyond strictly defensive anti-tank weapons right up until 2022 and the full-scale invasion.  Hamas has almost certainly received far more kinetic aid from its sponsors than Ukraine did between 2014-2022.

So speaking of reactionary, we are making up a false history to ensure that the false equivalence holds up. 

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

2 hours ago, 6th Street said:

Do you feel like the Ukrainians should use passive resistance against Putin after being invaded as well?

No, because Russia is actively trying to eradicate them.  That's a stupid comparison, though.  While the Israeli's are far from blameless, they're not doing anything comparable to what the Russians are doing.

Personally, I'd let the Palestinians have their own country.  (That's not fun, BTW.)  Then, after the first rocket salvo is launched from that new country, I'd blow it off the map.

[Bullneck 19073]

1 hour ago, 6th Street said:

Israelis routinely kill kids, blow up hospitals, and bulldoze villages. You cannot oppress a minority and not expect any repercussion.

Can you cite an example one of each, and post a link that to prove that it wasn't in retaliation for a prior attack or use of say, a school or hospital, as a staging point for weapons or the like?

Like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

Quote

The dread Israelis are feeling after today's assault, myself included, has been the daily experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long.

 

Spoiler

Gaza’s shock attack has terrified Israelis. It should also unveil the context
The dread Israelis are feeling after today's assault, myself included, has been the daily experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long.

This is a terrible day. After waking up to air sirens under a barrage of hundreds of rockets fired on Israeli cities, we have been learning about the unprecedented assault by Palestinian militants from Gaza into Israeli towns bordering the strip.

News is flowing in of at least 40 Israelis killed and hundreds wounded, as well as some reportedly kidnapped into Gaza. Meanwhile, the Israeli army has already begun its own offensive on the blockaded strip, with troops mobilizing along the fence and air strikes killing and wounding scores of Palestinians so far. The absolute dread of people who are seeing armed militants in their streets and homes, or the sight of fighter jets and approaching tanks, is unimaginable. Attacks on civilians are war crimes, and my heart goes to the victims and their families.

Contrary to what many Israelis are saying, and while the army was clearly caught completely off guard by this invasion, this is not a “unilateral” or “unprovoked” attack. The dread Israelis are feeling right now, myself included, is a sliver of what Palestinians have been feeling on a daily basis under the decades-long military regime in the West Bank, and under the siege and repeated assaults on Gaza. The responses we are hearing from many Israelis today — of people calling to “flatten Gaza,” that “these are savages, not people you can negotiate with,” “they are murdering whole families,” “there’s no room to talk with these people” — are exactly what I have heard occupied Palestinians say about Israelis countless times.

The attack this morning also has more recent contexts. One of them is the looming horizon of a normalization deal between Saudi Arabia and Israel. For years, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been making the case that peace can be achieved without talking to Palestinians or making any concessions. The Abraham Accords have stripped Palestinians of one of their last bargaining chips and support bases: the solidarity of Arab governments, despite that solidarity having long been questionable. The high likelihood of losing perhaps the most important of those Arab states may well have helped push Hamas to the edge.

Meanwhile, commentators have been warning for weeks that recent escalations in the occupied West Bank are leading to dangerous paths. Throughout the past year, more Palestinians and Israelis have been killed than in any other year since the Second Intifada of the early 2000s. The Israeli army is routinely raiding into Palestinian cities and refugee camps. The far-right government is giving settlers an entirely free hand to set up new illegal outposts and launch pogroms on Palestinian towns and villages, with soldiers accompanying the settlers and killing or maiming Palestinians trying to defend their homes. Amid the high holidays, Jewish extremists are challenging the “status quo” around the Temple Mount/Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem, backed by politicians who share their ideology.

In Gaza, meanwhile, the ongoing siege is continuously destroying the lives of over two million Palestinians, many of whom are living in extreme poverty, with little access to clean water and about four hours of electricity a day. This siege has no official endgame; even an Israeli State Comptroller report found that the government has never discussed long-term solutions to ending the blockade, nor seriously considered any alternatives to recurring rounds of war and death. It is literally the only option this government, and its predecessors, have on the table.

The only answers that consecutive Israeli governments have offered to the problem of Palestinian attacks from Gaza have been in the form of band aids: if they come from the ground, we will build a wall; if they come through tunnels, we will build an underground barrier; if they fire rockets, we’ll set up interceptors; if they are killing some of ours, we will kill many more of them. And so it goes on and on.

All this is not to justify the killing of civilians — that is absolutely wrong. Rather, it is meant to remind us that there is a reason to everything that is happening today, and that — as in all previous rounds — there is no military solution to Israel’s problem with Gaza, nor to the resistance that naturally emerges as a response to violent apartheid.

In recent months, hundreds of thousands of Israelis have been marching for “democracy and equality” across the country, with many even saying they would refuse military service because of this government’s authoritarian trends. What those protestors and reserve soldiers need to understand — especially today, as many of them announced they will halt their protests and join the war with Gaza — is that Palestinians have been struggling for those same demands and more for decades, facing an Israel that to them is already, and has always been, completely authoritarian.

As I write these words, I am sitting at home in Tel Aviv, trying to figure out how to protect my family in a house with no shelter or safe room, following with growing panic the reports and rumors of horrible events taking place in the Israeli towns near Gaza which are under attack. I see people, some of them my friends, calling on social media to attack Gaza more fiercely than ever before. Some Israelis are saying that now is the time to eradicate Gaza entirely — essentially calling for genocide. Through all the explosions, the dread and the bloodshed, speaking about peaceful solutions seems like madness to them.

Yet I remember that everything that I am feeling now, which every Israeli must be sharing, has been the life experience of millions of Palestinians for far too long. The only solution, as it has always been, is to bring an end of apartheid, occupation, and siege, and promote a future based on justice and equality for all of us. It is not in spite of the horror that we have to change course — it is exactly because of it.

https://www.972mag.com/gaza-attack-context-israelis/

[Satchel 6932]

Heard an Israeli official say today that Israel was committed to “crushing the spirit” of the attackers. Really? Israel has two options. It can pursue a Palestinian holocaust or it can become a peacemaker instead of a hegemonic peacekeeper. Doing so would require Israel abandon its commitment to an apartheid state in the West Bank. It’s virtually impossible to crush the spirit of oppressed people.

[Bullneck 19073]

1 hour ago, Gatorubet said:

I have numerous Jewish friends whose backing of Israel is cult-like.  There is simply nothing that will provoke severe condemnation for any action by Israel.   And as many think God gave those European Jews the right to Palestinian land, that precludes conversation on the subject - like an abortion rights conversation would go with Evangelicals.   Once God gives the okey-doke on an issue, secular discussion is foreclosed.  Add the calls for Israel’s destruction by many Arab states over the decades, and passive resistance by Palestinians won’t get you much traction.  

1. Based on historical events I can understand why Jews believe "by any means necessary."  

2. As I mentioned earlier, it would help to understand the rationale for creating a nation state out of someone else's land.  The Brits seemed unusually bad at thinking ideas like this through.

[Helobious 9450]

11 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

No, because Russia is actively trying to eradicate them.  That's a stupid comparison, though.  While the Israeli's are far from blameless, they're not doing anything comparable to what the Russians are doing.

Personally, I'd let the Palestinians have their own country.  (That's not fun, BTW.)  Then, after the first rocket salvo is launched from that new country, I'd blow it off the map.

You’d kill an entire country full of people, because some of them attacked another country that you admit isn’t “blameless”?

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

5 minutes ago, Helobious said:

You’d kill an entire country full of people, because some of them attacked another country that you admit isn’t “blameless”?

Yes.  The United States did it WWII.

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

12 minutes ago, Satchel said:

Heard an Israeli official say today that Israel was committed to “crushing the spirit” of the attackers. Really? Israel has two options. It can pursue a Palestinian holocaust or it can become a peacemaker instead of a hegemonic peacekeeper. Doing so would require Israel abandon its commitment to an apartheid state in the West Bank. It’s virtually impossible to crush the spirit of oppressed people.

I'd blockade/lay siege to the entire thing.  Give them time.  They'll come out when they're hungry enough.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Teachings of Buddha obviously known for advising genocide.

[Bullneck 19073]

2 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Teachings of Buddha obviously known for advising genocide.

Has Hamas been willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel?  Or are they still working with the "Israel has no right to exist" thing?

Since I can't get anyone to engage about the history, here it is. I didn't realize Egypt was blockading Gaza as well.  Anyone know why?

Quote

Palestine (Arabic: فلسطين, romanized: Filasṭīn, pronounced [fɪ.las.tˤiːn]), officially the State of Palestine^[a] (دولة فلسطين, Dawlat Filasṭīn), is a state located in the Southern Levant region of West Asia. Officially governed by the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), it claims the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip as its territory, though the entirety of that territory has been under Israeli occupation since the 1967 Six-Day War.^[5][18] As a result of the Oslo Accords of 1993–1995, the West Bank is currently divided into 165 Palestinian enclaves that are under partial Palestinian National Authority (PNA) rule; the remainder, including 200 Israeli settlements, is under full Israeli control. The Gaza Strip has been ruled by the militant Islamic group Hamas and has been subject to a long-term blockade by Egypt and Israel since 2007.^[c]

After World War II, in 1947, the United Nations (UN) adopted a Partition Plan for Mandatory Palestine, which recommended the creation of independent Arab and Jewish states and an internationalized Jerusalem.^[27] This Partition Plan was accepted by the Jews but rejected by the Arabs. Immediately after the United Nations General Assembly adopted the plan as Resolution 181, a civil war broke out^[28] and the plan was not implemented.^[29] The day after the establishment of the State of Israel on 14 May 1948,^[30][31][32] neighboring Arab countries invaded the former British Mandate and engaged Israeli forces in the First Arab–Israeli War.^[33][34] Later, the All-Palestine Government was established by the Arab League on 22 September 1948 to govern the All-Palestine Protectorate in the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip. It was soon recognized by all Arab League members except Transjordan, which had occupied and later annexed the West Bank, including East Jerusalem. Palestine is currently recognized by 138 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states. Though jurisdiction of the All-Palestine Government was declared to cover the whole of the former Mandatory Palestine, its effective jurisdiction was limited to the Gaza Strip.^[35] Israel later captured the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria during the Six-Day War in June 1967.

On 15 November 1988 in Algiers, then-Chairman of the PLO Yasser Arafat proclaimed the establishment of the State of Palestine. A year after the signing of the Oslo Accords in 1993, the PNA was formed to govern (in varying degrees) areas A and B in the West Bank, comprising 165 enclaves, and the Gaza Strip. After Hamas became the PNA parliament's leading party in the most recent elections (2006), a conflict broke out between it and the Fatah party, leading to Gaza being taken over by Hamas in 2007 (two years after the Israeli disengagement).

The State of Palestine's mid-year population in 2021 was 5,227,193. Although Palestine claims Jerusalem as its capital, the city is under the control of Israel; both Palestinian and Israeli claims to the city are mostly unrecognized by the international community. Palestine is a member of the Arab League, the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, the G77, the International Olympic Committee, as well as UNESCO, UNCTAD and the International Criminal Court.^[36] Following a failed attempt in 2011^[e] to secure full United Nations member state status, the United Nations General Assembly voted in 2012 to recognize Palestine as a non-member observer state.^[38][39][40]

 

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

4 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

So, great, how does pulling women out of cars and shooting them in the head accomplish anything and what does it accomplish?

Also, what kind of country would "Palestine" be?  What would be their economy?  Would they be a peaceful neighbor?

Israel will not allow Palestine to be a country with the same rights as any other country (like, most especially, the right to defend itself). Don’t ask what country it would be like because Israel won’t let it be, period. 

[Willfully Horn 8002]

7 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Are they going to treat them more violently now? Will they kick more of them out of their homes and steal more of their land and hope that will stop the terrorist attacks?

That is indeed the gist of the piece I linked. A response to having their sense of strength and safety shattered. Edited to say that the destruction of one side has already been declared as essential to the other. Now the Israelis might be saying the same thing.
 

That land is considered ancestral to both Israelis and Palestinians, and for good reasons.

The Israelis feel they have no where else to go. I don’t know if Palestinians say the same thing.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Willfully Horn

[WhatTheBuck 28775]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s important context in that Israel un-occupied Gaza in 2005 and shortly afterward Gaza brought Hamas into power.  A group that has the destruction of Israel and genocide of Jews written into its founding documents.

Israel has ownership of Palestinian lands written into their sacred text. The god they invented promised it to them in a book they wrote thousands of years ago. 

[956 Worldwide 34702]

22 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Israel has ownership of Palestinian lands written into their sacred text. The god they invented promised it to them in a book they wrote thousands of years ago. 

I don’t think that “Jews get irrationally religious about territory” is the flex you think it is when it comes to this particular dispute. 

[South Austin 52454]

This feels like a Super Bowl where I truly don’t know who to root for.

[Helobious 9450]

46 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Yes.  The United States did it WWII.

No offense but you’re fucking retarded if you think we did anything remotely close to that.

[956 Worldwide 34702]

35 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Has Hamas been willing to sign a peace treaty with Israel?  Or are they still working with the "Israel has no right to exist" thing?

Since I can't get anyone to engage about the history, here it is. I didn't realize Egypt was blockading Gaza as well.  Anyone know why?

 

Egypt started the blockade when Hamas took over at the same time as Israel started its blockade. First, because Egypt recognizes the Palestinian Authority as the legit government of Palestine and wants to keep its legitimacy so it refuses to treat Hamas-run Gaza as a real government. For most of the blockade, Fatah and the PA has supported Egypt’s (but not Israel’s) blockade of the strip.

Second, because Hamas is a militant terrorist group with an apocalyptic ideology and they don’t want them coming back and forth into Egypt any more than Israel wants them in Israel. 
 

 

[FORTY NINE TO ZERO 2652]

look, it fucking sucks people lost their land 90 years ago.  it truly does.

but it comes a point where for the betterment of their own society they need to move on.  

i bet gaza and the west bank would be a much better place to live now if a true peace treaty had happened in the 80s..

[Bullneck 19073]

8 minutes ago, Helobious said:

No offense but you’re fucking retarded if you think we did anything remotely close to that.

Truman could have waited another week before dropping that second bomb.

[G650 14243]

51 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Since I can't get anyone to engage about the history, here it is.

What area you talking about, there were a couple posts up thread, one of mine, specifically speaking to the genesis of this idiocy.

[Bullneck 19073]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

What area you talking about, there were a couple posts up thread, one of mine, specifically speaking to the genesis of this idiocy.

OK, you get a gold star for Picot Ascot or whatever that was. 

You didn't explain much about it, though.

[G650 14243]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

OK, you get a gold star for Picot Ascot or whatever that was. 

You didn't explain much about it, though.

Do you need me to explain Sykes Picot to you?

[Bullneck 19073]

Just now, G650 said:

Do you need me to explain Sykes Picot to you?

Yes, yes I do.  

[Walser 1109]

2 hours ago, tchookem said:

3 hours ago, Gidnik said:

Glad i went when i did.  

Was that the only time Santa would approve your PTO?

You'd think at 420 it would be the highest bar in the world.

Also pretty sure the Surl is the lowest bar.

[Hefeweizen 5310]

1 minute ago, Walser said:

You'd think at 420 it would be the highest bar in the world.

Also pretty sure the Surl is the lowest bar.

Donal please.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Satchel said:

Heard an Israeli official say today that Israel was committed to “crushing the spirit” of the attackers. Really? Israel has two options. It can pursue a Palestinian holocaust or it can become a peacemaker instead of a hegemonic peacekeeper. Doing so would require Israel abandon its commitment to an apartheid state in the West Bank. It’s virtually impossible to crush the spirit of oppressed people.

It is very much possible to crush when you eliminate them. 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Porterhouse

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Helobious said:

No offense but you’re fucking retarded if you think we did anything remotely close to that.

Man you’re an idiot in multiple areas. 

[Bullneck 19073]

9 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

It is very much possible to crush when you eliminate them. 

 

[G650 14243]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

Yes, yes I do.  

 

So without consulting some of my books off the shelf to give you absolute precision, since it's been a few since I've read anything, the overview of Sykes Picot is two ridiculous humans, Mark Sykes and Francios Picot, met secretly and came up with a way to divide the Middle East into four areas to be essentially exploited for the gain of the main allied powers. This was basically pre planning for the fall of the Ottomans and how to maximize profit. Which in and of itself is very trifling, but it's taken to 11 by the fact that both of these guys were of the era of the gentleman amateur, which if you aren't familiar was a huge thing among the landed and aristocratic in the 19th century going into the 20th, and mainly means they are morons who had no fucking idea what they were doing. Sykes is more the amateur archetype, and Picot more of a sniveling shithead, but that isn't a meaningful distinction of what were are talking about here.

 

Long term it gave us Syria, Iraq, Jordan that was grouped by no rational state of affairs on the ground, be it demographics, history, tribal, or anything. Syria was supposed to be an Arab homeland, which didn't happen and pissed everyone off, Iraq was essentially for oil rights, and Jordan was the only one that actually survived in any reasonable form. The Syria debacle set the stage for Arab enmity for the west for generations just on its own. TA Lawrence called it at the time but was brushed off.

Then Balfour tacked on a Zionist homeland a year or two later into an already ridiculous situation, and the Arabs watched even more of their land be straight robbed.

 

You can blame basically all downstream carnage in the Mid East over this insanely idiotic farce. The rise of jihadism is a directly result of the economic hardships and mismatched leadership of this. You had rulers with no legitimacy in the eyes of the populous and no hope of any betterment of life. Then you have generational cycles of escalatory violence.

[Bullneck 19073]

Thanks.  (Side note, but I've heard similar things about Mountbatten and his India, Pakistan, Bangladesh thinking).

 

[G650 14243]

1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

Thanks.  (Side note, but I've heard similar things about Mountbatten and his India, Pakistan, Bangladesh thinking).

 

Yeah, imagine Mountbatten, but 15 times more inept, and you basically have it. That is a great analogue.  He is actually a really good example of the gentleman amateur archetype  too, he at least had a semblance of capability compared to these guys though.

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

48 minutes ago, Helobious said:

No offense but you’re fucking retarded if you think we did anything remotely close to that.

We dropped two nuclear weapons on civilian targets.  That doesn't include the firebombing of Tokyo and various German cities.

[Aqua Buddha 14582]

13 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Regardless of what you think of the history, and stipulating that Israel has done plenty of harm to the Palestinians, the realpolitik of this is pretty simple.  What do you think the USA would do if Tijuana elected Al Qaida to run their government, adopted a death to America ideology as their official platform, launched rockets into San Diego constantly and every so often did much worse (including something like this) while all the people celebrated in the streets at seeing our civilians tortured and killed?  

We topple actual nation states on the other side of the planet for less.  If you take the position that everyone in your neighboring country needs to die, and you initiate attacks on them, then you’re a fucking idiot if you choose to do that to a neighboring country that can wipe you off the map.  That’s where we are now, and it doesn’t really matter how we got there.  Hamas decided they wanted war, and they chose poorly.

We would fucking end them with Lee Greenwood blaring in the background.

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Regardless of what you think of the history, and stipulating that Israel has done plenty of harm to the Palestinians, the realpolitik of this is pretty simple.  What do you think the USA would do if Tijuana elected Al Qaida to run their government, adopted a death to America ideology as their official platform, launched rockets into San Diego constantly and every so often did much worse (including something like this) while all the people celebrated in the streets at seeing our civilians tortured and killed?  

We topple actual nation states on the other side of the planet for less.  If you take the position that everyone in your neighboring country needs to die, and you initiate attacks on them, then you’re a fucking idiot if you choose to do that to a neighboring country that can wipe you off the map.  That’s where we are now, and it doesn’t really matter how we got there.  Hamas decided they wanted war, and they chose poorly.

What do you think about early Texans fighting Indians?  I draw a lot of similarities to the circumstances and behavior of the encroached upon. About a century apart, and we ended them over a few generations while this has been going on for a century. 

The amendment id have to your hypothetical is we expelled them from Orange County and San Diego County and pushed them south. 

[Woodrow Call 494]

A terrible situation where innocent Israelis and Palestinians are going to suffer. A corrupt government and a terrorist organization are plunging these people into a bloody war and will likely affect the Ukrainian situation. Hamas is no friend to the Palestinian people. 

[Doc Sam Beckett 5792]

48 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

So without consulting some of my books off the shelf to give you absolute precision, since it's been a few since I've read anything, the overview of Sykes Picot is two ridiculous humans, Mark Sykes and Francios Picot, met secretly and came up with a way to divide the Middle East into four areas to be essentially exploited for the gain of the main allied powers. This was basically pre planning for the fall of the Ottomans and how to maximize profit. Which in and of itself is very trifling, but it's taken to 11 by the fact that both of these guys were of the era of the gentleman amateur, which if you aren't familiar was a huge thing among the landed and aristocratic in the 19th century going into the 20th, and mainly means they are morons who had no fucking idea what they were doing. Sykes is more the amateur archetype, and Picot more of a sniveling shithead, but that isn't a meaningful distinction of what were are talking about here.

 

Long term it gave us Syria, Iraq, Jordan that was grouped by no rational state of affairs on the ground, be it demographics, history, tribal, or anything. Syria was supposed to be an Arab homeland, which didn't happen and pissed everyone off, Iraq was essentially for oil rights, and Jordan was the only one that actually survived in any reasonable form. The Syria debacle set the stage for Arab enmity for the west for generations just on its own. TA Lawrence called it at the time but was brushed off.

Then Balfour tacked on a Zionist homeland a year or two later into an already ridiculous situation, and the Arabs watched even more of their land be straight robbed.

 

You can blame basically all downstream carnage in the Mid East over this insanely idiotic farce. The rise of jihadism is a directly result of the economic hardships and mismatched leadership of this. You had rulers with no legitimacy in the eyes of the populous and no hope of any betterment of life. Then you have generational cycles of escalatory violence.

This is pretty fascinating and I hadn't heard of it before, thanks 

[G650 14243]

11 minutes ago, Doc Sam Beckett said:

This is pretty fascinating and I hadn't heard of it before, thanks 

Happy to. As I said it's been a bit since I've really dug into it, but that's the fifty thousand foot view anyhow.

 

Two books that I think are pretty good in particular are Lawrence in Arabia by Scott Anderson for regional specific information, and 1919 by Margaret MacMillan, which is an excellent dive into Versailles after WWI and the untold unforeseen effects that cane to pass from that conference. Its truly pretty staggering.

[LCHorn 2615]

2 hours ago, Bullneck said:

The Brits seemed unusually bad at thinking ideas like this through.

Oh, I don’t know, they seem to have successfully made all of those territorial divisions someone else’s problem.  I00 years later that’s probably mission accomplished.  

[Helobious 9450]

1 hour ago, Aqua Buddha said:

We dropped two nuclear weapons on civilian targets.  That doesn't include the firebombing of Tokyo and various German cities.

How does that equal “killing everyone in the country” as you suggest? 

[totallynotabuttpirate 5395]

@Brian Fantana Just want to tell you to go fuck yourself in this thread as well. Now is not the time for both-sides bullshit. 

[Brian Fantana 6680]

17 minutes ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

@Brian Fantana Just want to tell you to go fuck yourself in this thread as well. Now is not the time for both-sides bullshit. 

Keep Yourself Safe.

[totallynotabuttpirate 5395]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Keep Yourself Safe.

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sounds of both sides.