Israel

[Brian Fantana 6875]

1 minute ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sounds of both sides. 

Can't hear you over the sounds of denying Israel's crimes against humanity and calls for genocide of Palestinians by people like you. Have a great day!

[totallynotabuttpirate 5492]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Can't hear you over the sounds of denying Israel's crimes against humanity and calls for genocide of Palestinians by people like you. Have a great day!

lol I haven't denied anything. You on the other hand have been both-siding (is that a verb?) it since the attack began. 

[Brian Fantana 6875]

1 minute ago, totallynotabuttpirate said:

lol I haven't denied anything. You on the other hand have been both-siding (is that a verb?) it since the attack began. 

You're right, I would like the crimes against humanity to stop on both sides. But the apartheid state must continue, as sponsored by America.

[6th Street 6693]

When an oppressed minority sees their villages bulldozed and hospitals bombed they will naturally be pissed off. Perhaps the latest bulldozing in Jenin and blockage of food and medical supplies in the Gaza Strip was a bridge too far.

[WhatTheBuck 28940]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think that “Jews get irrationally religious about territory” is the flex you think it is when it comes to this particular dispute. 

You don’t think they’re using their scripture to justify their claim to ownership of someone else’s land? If you don’t then you’re horribly wrong.

[6th Street 6693]

It is the sole justification behind the acceleration of illegal settlement expansion in the West Bank. These very settlements are in violation of international law. 

 

[DDD Dad 14662]

4 hours ago, Helobious said:

No offense but you’re fucking retarded if you think we did anything remotely close to that.

Let’s not use that term please. 

[Horn80 6361]

This is going to be a disaster for all involved.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Horn80

[DDD Dad 14662]

4 hours ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Israel has ownership of Palestinian lands written into their sacred text. The god they invented promised it to them in a book they wrote thousands of years ago. 

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

[Bullneck 19560]

1 hour ago, 6th Street said:

When an oppressed minority sees their villages bulldozed and hospitals bombed they will naturally be pissed off. Perhaps the latest bulldozing in Jenin and blockage of food and medical supplies in the Gaza Strip was a bridge too far.

You'll do a lot better with your arguments if you cite some sources.  Below is from CNN:

Quote

Israeli forces launched what a military source said is its largest military operation in the occupied West Bank city of Jenin in more than 20 years, killing at least 10 people and injuring about 100 others, according to Palestinian officials.

The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said in a statement it launched the ongoing “extensive counterterrorism effort in the area of the city of Jenin and the Jenin Camp,” striking “terrorist infrastructure.”

The IDF carried out around 10 airstrikes using drones, and hundreds of soldiers targeted what it said was a militant “command and control” center as well as weapons and explosive manufacturing sites.

 

 

Videos obtained by CNN from Jenin show Israeli bulldozers tearing up streets to disarm potential explosives, as well as Israeli tanks outside the city limits.

Residents told CNN there were explosions and heavy gunfire in the area, while video from the scene showed wounded Palestinians being evacuated by ambulance to Jenin Government Hospital.

Hundreds of Palestinian families fled the area amid the destruction; Jenin deputy mayor Mohammed Jarrar said homes and infrastructure had been destroyed, cutting off electricity and water in the refugee camp.

Duha Turkman, a 16-year-old Jenin resident, said they were given two hours to evacuate.

“We ran out with people from the camp, so many children walked with their parents while terrified and crying, they didn’t understand what was happening to them and why,” she told CNN. “Many were missing; families were looking for members that they couldn’t get in contact with due to the electricity cut.”

Did you ever respond to these questions?

 

Edited October 8, 2023 by Bullneck

[Aqua Buddha 14809]

8 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

The whole argument of the “Jews made them do it” is in itself anti Semitic.

[Bodhi 1135]

15 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Let’s not use that term please. 

8 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

When you are done bringing civil discourse to this thread every other one in the CR could also use your assistance 

[WhatTheBuck 28940]

13 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

Now that’s a horrible take. It’s not anti-Semitic in the least.

Edited October 8, 2023 by WhatTheBuck

[Gatorubet 30783]

Can you cite an example one of each, and post a link that to prove that it wasn't in retaliation for a prior attack or use of say, a school or hospital, as a staging point for weapons or the like?
Like this: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/31/why-hamas-stores-its-weapons-inside-hospitals-mosques-and-schools/

Holy Shit! Rip Van Winkle.  
You sound like someone from Northern Ireland who is Catholic or someone from Northern Ireland who is Protestant defending their respective side. Nothing we do is wrong everything the other side doesn’t is evil.  That is not a particularly helpful take.
it is easy to look at the abject horror of killing those innocent civilians. Those murdering Terrorists should all die.  
This is not a perfect example, but despite that listen to the larger point. Nat Turner’s revolt , as they were attacking plantation after plantation , routinely slaughtered everyone at the home. No one can condone that. But the rage and the anger of people who are oppressed their whole lives tends to sometimes explode into a horrible “retribution” situation like this.  
People who feel they are powerless with nothing to lose sometimes think the idiotic horrific acts - like committed by Hamas - are legitimate given other wrongs done them.   Of course, that is wrong.  But you’ve seen this repeated constantly throughout history. Look at the black hole of Calcutta.

[G650 14450]

32 minutes ago, Horn80 said:

This is going to be a disaster for all involved.

This thread or Israel and Palestine? Either way, yes

[Bullneck 19560]

8 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Holy Shit! Rip Van Winkle.  
You sound like someone from Northern Ireland who is Catholic or someone from Northern Ireland who is Protestant defending their respective side. Nothing we do is wrong everything the other side doesn’t is evil.  That is not a particularly helpful take.
it is easy to look at the abject horror of killing those innocent civilians. Those murdering Terrorists should all die.  
This is not a perfect example, but despite that listen to the larger point. Nat Turner’s revolt , as they were attacking plantation after plantation , routinely slaughtered everyone at the home. No one can condone that. But the rage and the anger of people who are oppressed their whole lives tends to sometimes explode into a horrible “retribution” situation like this.  
People who feel they are powerless with nothing to lose sometimes think the idiotic horrific acts - like committed by Hamas - are legitimate given other wrongs done them.   Of course, that is wrong.  But you’ve seen this repeated constantly throughout history. Look at the black hole of Calcutta.

I don't have a dog in this fight.  

But I don't think Hamas any possibility at all of winning an armed conflict.  As someone else noted, Hamas is doing the bidding of others, most likely the ones who provided them with those missiles.  So everything that transpired in the last two days is a futile waste of human life.

Unless Hamas is successful in drawing (presumably) Iran into using whatever arsenal they have to destroy Israel nothing will change "for the better" in their eyes. 

I appreciate the Nat Turner Revolt example, but if the surrounding nations don't come to their aid this was a stupendously bad move.  It's a tough sell but Hamas should have voluntarily disarmed and tried to coexist peacefully.  

 

[6th Street 6693]

38 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

You'll do a lot better with your arguments if you cite some sources.  Below is from CNN:

Did you ever respond to these questions?

 

Independent 3rd parties such as the United Nations and amnesty.org have both condemned the settlements and respective human rights abuses. Israeli war crimes have gone unpunished 
 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/human-rights-council-hears-current-israeli-plan-double-settler-population-occupied

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/

 

[DDD Dad 14662]

16 minutes ago, G650 said:

This thread or Israel and Palestine? Either way, yes

 

[Serak The Preparer 3484]

44 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

This is a bad take. I am not particularly fond of @WhatTheBuck constant stridency but he has consistently been anti- any organized religion for years. I haven't ever see you say his (or others') takes are implicitly anti-Christian when they make "religion bad" posts. 

[DDD Dad 14662]

35 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Now that’s a horrible take. It’s not anti-Semitic in the least.

I can only point it out to you. K can’t understand it for you. 

[Dbeasy 15613]

I have a few questions for some of the opinionated people on this thread like Fantana, Bullneck, and anyone else that wants to chime in. 

The struggle with understanding and picking sides with all of these international conflicts is the fact that land ownership and who conquers who changes all the time. 

Is the root issue of this conflict the fact that Palestines refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist, and won’t accept a limited second state? Or do you have a different view? Why?

 

 

[bernorange 8386]

4 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

... land ownership and who conquers who changes all the time. ...

[6th Street 6693]

8 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a few questions for some of the opinionated people on this thread like Fantana, Bullneck, and anyone else that wants to chime in. 

The struggle with understanding and picking sides with all of these international conflicts is the fact that land ownership and who conquers who changes all the time. 

Is the root issue of this conflict the fact that Palestines refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist, and won’t accept a limited second state? Or do you have a different view? Why?

 

 

Most Palestinians and Israelis just want to go about their lives and eat falafels and hummus. Unfortunately, the fringe folks such as the Israeli far right/Netanyahu and Hamas are key impediments to achieving any sort of mutual agreement. 

[DDD Dad 14662]

12 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

This is a bad take. I am not particularly fond of @WhatTheBuck constant stridency but he has consistently been anti- any organized religion for years. I haven't ever see you say his (or others') takes are implicitly anti-Christian when they make "religion bad" posts. 

Anti-Christian or anti-any organized religion isn’t the same thing. Like I said to  WTB, I can’t understand it for you. 

[Js1 87281]

4 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Most Palestinians and Israelis just want to go about their lives and eat falafels and hummus.

Me too 

[956 Worldwide 35601]

18 minutes ago, Serak The Preparer said:

This is a bad take. I am not particularly fond of @WhatTheBuck constant stridency but he has consistently been anti- any organized religion for years. I haven't ever see you say his (or others') takes are implicitly anti-Christian when they make "religion bad" posts. 

It’s about context. If you’re talking about Middle East stuff and announce that only the Jews’ religious text and belief is a problem, that is indeed super anti-Jewish. 

[G650 14450]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

It’s about context. If you’re talking about Middle East stuff and announce that only the Jews’ religious text and belief is a problem, that is indeed super anti-Jewish. 

It doesn't seem like that's what he is doing though

[956 Worldwide 35601]

Just now, G650 said:

It doesn't seem like that's what he is doing though

I referred to a specific political/militant group’s (Hamas) charter documents (they do refer to the Koran, but it’s a lot of proof-texting and selective choices combined with a bunch of totally non-scriptural thought) and he came back with “the Jews’ religion.” 
 

What’s another way to understand that? 

[G650 14450]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

I referred to a specific political/militant group’s (Hamas) charter documents (they do refer to the Koran, but it’s a lot of proof-texting and selective choices combined with a bunch of totally non-scriptural thought) and he came back with “the Jews’ religion.” 
 

What’s another way to understand that? 

That any claims of land ownership based on religious doctrine is invalid

[Boss Hogg 808]

1 hour ago, Horn80 said:

This is going to be a disaster for all involved.

Not for Nikki Haley. She hasn’t put her vibrator away since this all started. 

[956 Worldwide 35601]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

That any claims of land ownership based on religious doctrine is invalid

Except that’s not what Hamas’ charter is about. Hamas’ charter explicitly calls to murder Jews wherever they are. And coming back and saying “but the Jews’ 2000 year old text that can be understood in a lot of ways and that  calls for a homeland in the Levant” when compared to a late 20th century document that says “kill all the Jews” is super fucking anti-Jewish. 

[tx 3 putt 78736]

Let them fight it out 

[G650 14450]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Except that’s not what Hamas’ charter is about. Hamas’ charter explicitly calls to murder Jews wherever they are. And coming back and saying “but the Jews’ 2000 year old text that can be understood in a lot of ways and that  calls for a homeland in the Levant” when compared to a late 20th century document that says “kill all the Jews” is super fucking anti-Jewish. 

I mean, you'll have to ask him, I don't know his intent. I'm just telling you how I read it.

[totallynotabuttpirate 5492]

2 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're right, I would like the crimes against humanity to stop on both sides. But the apartheid state must continue, as sponsored by America.

Yea, that's sounds like what we should be talking about at this moment, you stupid fuck. 

[Gatorubet 30783]

1 hour ago, Bullneck said:

I appreciate the Nat Turner Revolt example, but if the surrounding nations don't come to their aid this was a stupendously bad move.    

For everyone.  This is just what the world did not need right now.  Just gut wrenching sad. That music festival massacre - I can’t stop thinking about it.   Israel won’t forget this.  Any peace proponents will be drowned out for some time.    That the possibility of an attack on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war did not occur to anyone is like us not not seeing 9-11 anniversary terrorist attacks against the US.  The  current Israeli government will be in a political crisis too, as soon as the hostage efforts conclude. 

I do not like this simulation. 

[Bullneck 19560]

54 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I can only point it out to you. K can’t understand it for you. 

FWIW I don't get how what he posted is anti-Semitic, either.  Can you explain why?

[TwiceHorn 32103]

19 minutes ago, G650 said:

That any claims of land ownership based on religious doctrine is invalid

Well, whatever Jewish Zionists thought before the establishment of Israel is now pretty much irrelevant because Israel has a legally established existence for about 75 years now.  I'm not discounting that some Israelis/Jews feel a religious entitlement to their lands, but it's not really relevant anymore.

Israel seized Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan in a war commenced against them by states whose motivation to wage war against Israel was 100% religiously motivated.

Of course, those states now participate more or less in the world order and cannot employ religious fatwas to justify military aggression against Israel.

So, the poor Palestinian schmucks that live in those territories have become proxies for rogue states that want to eradicate Israel for religious reasons, despite Israel's legal recognition by most of the secular world for nearly a century.

If you are going to cast stones at Israel for believing they're divinely entitled to Palestine, you can't leave out the Islamic states that think that they divinely entitled to eradicate them.  They are at least in pari delicto on that one.  At least.

This is not a defense of Israel's tactics in those territories.  Israel needs to grow the fuck up as a first-world country and stop abusing people who present a minor threat to their existence.

[Fudge Nuggets 19473]

30 minutes ago, Boss Hogg said:

Not for Nikki Haley. She hasn’t put her vibrator away since this all started. 

Hindus have a rooting interest in this shit show?

[Bullneck 19560]

57 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Most Palestinians and Israelis just want to go about their lives and eat falafels and hummus. Unfortunately, the fringe folks such as the Israeli far right/Netanyahu and Hamas are key impediments to achieving any sort of mutual agreement. 

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Israel needs to grow the fuck up as a first-world country and stop abusing people who present a minor threat to their existence.

It thought that was a solid post but I don't quite agree with the last sentence.

Quote

Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched thousands^[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by the United Nations, the European Union, and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch. The international community considers indiscriminate attacks on civilian targets to be illegal under international law.^[5][6]

Someone else did a pretty good analysis of this upthread.  Let me see if I can find it.

(insert quoted text here)

1 hour ago, 6th Street said:

Independent 3rd parties such as the United Nations and amnesty.org have both condemned the settlements and respective human rights abuses. Israeli war crimes have gone unpunished 
 

https://www.ohchr.org/en/news/2023/03/human-rights-council-hears-current-israeli-plan-double-settler-population-occupied

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2017/06/israel-occupation-50-years-of-dispossession/
 

OK, I looked at these. 

The UN report is just that: a summation of Israeli expansion (illegal by even their own laws it says.  Not sure if they are violating the Future Land Use or zoning map or some a civil law stating they are not permitted to expand into certain areas for political reasons).  It seems to me that the ruling Israeli party has decided to "get while the getting is good" and plant their flag anywhere they don't want any chance Palestinians might live.  When I visited (2007) there were a ton of Eastern Europeans walking around.  I assumed Russia wanted them out and Israel was happy for more population.  That report also cited the number of attacks on Palestinians during this expansion.

The Amnesty Intl outlined more of the difficulties Palestinians, and quite frankly it sucks to be them.*  (So I did read them).

Realistically I think the window is closed for "maybe we can work this out" with Israel.  *Basically they blame Israel for everything.  I wonder if maybe if they used 10% of their daily effort making things better for their people maybe they would be OK?  

I blame Big XII refs for a lot, particularly the 2015 Okie State game.  But no one cares, really.  It's in the books as a loss.  

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bullneck

[956 Worldwide 35601]

55 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

I have a few questions for some of the opinionated people on this thread like Fantana, Bullneck, and anyone else that wants to chime in. 

The struggle with understanding and picking sides with all of these international conflicts is the fact that land ownership and who conquers who changes all the time. 

Is the root issue of this conflict the fact that Palestines refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist, and won’t accept a limited second state? Or do you have a different view? Why?

 

 

I don’t think it’s super helpful to refer to “the Palestinians” as much as it is relevant to talk about Hamas. And Hamas very much wants to be conflated with all of Palestine and its cause, and Israeli hardliners want to do the same. It’s not possible to talk about what’s going on, or the awful situation in Gaza, without looking at this specific group, ideology, and actions. 

[BrickHorn 18450]

Religion sucks. 

[Brian Fantana 6875]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think it’s super helpful to refer to “the Palestinians” as much as it is relevant to talk about Hamas. And Hamas very much wants to be conflated with all of Palestine and its cause, and Israeli hardliners want to do the same. It’s not possible to talk about what’s going on, or the awful situation in Gaza, without looking at this specific group, ideology, and actions. 

Well we should be clear and say that Hamas was democratically elected to lead them, but it's not super surprising for such a deeply oppressed group of people to turn to a fundamentalist group to protect their interests, even if it clearly is counter-productive from the outside looking in.

[BrickHorn 18450]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

Stalin and Pol Pot agree.  I don't think the Huttus and Tutsis had a grand theological dispute, either.

People manage to commit atrocities and to find dumb, hateful reasons to go to war with or without religion.

That’s like saying lots of people die from stuff other than cancer. So what?

[Dbeasy 15613]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think it’s super helpful to refer to “the Palestinians” as much as it is relevant to talk about Hamas. And Hamas very much wants to be conflated with all of Palestine and its cause, and Israeli hardliners want to do the same. It’s not possible to talk about what’s going on, or the awful situation in Gaza, without looking at this specific group, ideology, and actions. 

No that is exactly my question. I’m not talking about Hamas. I’m asking about the Palestinian people. What do they believe and want?

[956 Worldwide 35601]

12 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, whatever Jewish Zionists thought before the establishment of Israel is now pretty much irrelevant because Israel has a legally established existence for about 75 years now.  I'm not discounting that some Israelis/Jews feel a religious entitlement to their lands, but it's not really relevant anymore.

Israel seized Gaza, the West Bank, and Golan in a war commenced against them by states whose motivation to wage war against Israel was 100% religiously motivated.

Of course, those states now participate more or less in the world order and cannot employ religious fatwas to justify military aggression against Israel.

So, the poor Palestinian schmucks that live in those territories have become proxies for rogue states that want to eradicate Israel for religious reasons, despite Israel's legal recognition by most of the secular world for nearly a century.

If you are going to cast stones at Israel for believing they're divinely entitled to Palestine, you can't leave out the Islamic states that think that they divinely entitled to eradicate them.  They are at least in pari delicto on that one.  At least.

This is not a defense of Israel's tactics in those territories.  Israel needs to grow the fuck up as a first-world country and stop abusing people who present a minor threat to their existence.

Very Smart People who talk about history give me the cringe as an Eastern Europe hand.  You need to know the history to understand the chess board, but a lot of this shit reminds me of the Very Smart People who try to explain the Balkans.  People in 2023 have agency and get to make their own decisions, even within the bounds that history and geopolitics hand them. There was nothing inevitable about Srebrenica or Milosevic. Hamas shooting up a hippie music festival and executing children in front of their families is also not determined or inevitable. The motivations of the people doing those things is not best understood with reference to the division of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. 

[BrickHorn 18450]

12 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

There are other aspects to religion besides extremists using it to kill each other.

True. It’s good for con artists and creeps, I guess. 

[Bullneck 19560]

8 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

No that is exactly my question. I’m not talking about Hamas. I’m asking about the Palestinian people. What do they believe and want?

The Hamas Covenant

 

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:

•  

  Goals of the HAMAS:

  "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

   

  On the destruction of Israel:

  "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

   

  The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:

  "The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)

  "Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)

   

  The call to jihad:

  "The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

  "Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

   

  Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

  "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

  Spoiler

  Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

  "Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

   

  Anti-Semitic incitement:

  The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

  "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)

  "Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

  "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

  
   

  Analysis of the Hamas Charter
  (Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center)

   

  From address by FM Avigdor Liberman to the Global Forum for Combating Antisemitism - Dec 2009

   

  The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement's ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter's stance is uncompromising. It views the "problem of Palestine" as a religious-political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the "infidel" Jews. "Palestine" is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

   

  That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel's right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana,4 that "Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before."

   

  Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad's deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading "strategy" in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.

   

  The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur'an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur'an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: "No war takes place anywhere without the Jews' being behind it" (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).

   

  The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

   

  The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds or "the spread of Islamic consciousness" within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that "Islamic consciousness" is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out.

   

  As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered territories: it must be "purified," purged of "the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries" (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur'an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are "books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc." When imbued with "correct" Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing "liberation campaign" (Article 19).

   

  The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur'an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the "terrorist Jewish enemy," described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various "charitable societies" set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).

   

  The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization's secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every "nationalist trend" working "to liberate Palestine" and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).

  The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement’s ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter s stance is uncompromising. It views the “problem of Palestine” as a religious political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the “infidel” Jews. “Palestine” is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

   

  That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel’s right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana, that “Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before.”

   

  Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad’s deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading “strategy” in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation. 

   

  The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur’an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur’an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: “No war takes place anywhere  without the Jews’ being behind it” (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).

   

  The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of “Palestine” from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas’s terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that “the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine’ is the personal duty [fardh ‘ayn]” of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

   

  The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds, or, “the spread of Islamic consciousness” (al-wa’i al-islami), within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that “Islamic consciousness” (amaliyyat al taw aiyah) is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out (ibid.).

   

  As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered  territories: it must be “purified,” purged of “the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries” (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur’an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are “books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc.” When imbued with “correct” Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing “liberation campaign” (Article 19).

   

  The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur’an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the “terrorist Jewish enemy,” described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various “charitable societies” set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).

   

  The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization’s secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every “nationalist trend” working “to liberate Palestine” and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).

   

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bullneck

[DDD Dad 14662]

49 minutes ago, G650 said:

I mean, you'll have to ask him, I don't know his intent. I'm just telling you how I read it.

It doesn’t matter what WTB intended to say. 

[Aqua Buddha 14809]

Saying Hamas isn't committed to the destruction of Israel and a pile of dead Jews is like saying the South and Civil War wasn't about slavery.

Read the fucking documents.

[TwiceHorn 32103]

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Very Smart People who talk about history give me the cringe as an Eastern Europe hand.  You need to know the history to understand the chess board, but a lot of this shit reminds me of the Very Smart People who try to explain the Balkans.  People in 2023 have agency and get to make their own decisions, even within the bounds that history and geopolitics hand them. There was nothing inevitable about Srebrenica or Milosevic. Hamas shooting up a hippie music festival and executing children in front of their families is also not determined or inevitable. The motivations of the people doing those things is not best understood with reference to the division of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. 

I'm not sure what you're saying, but we are in basic agreement I think.

Whatever Israel's original motivations for existence were, they are largely irrelevant now, especially given that most of the threats to their existence are currently religiously motivated.

For WhatTheBuck to essentially accuse Israel/"the Jews" of being religious fanatics while ignoring the fanatacism of those who threaten them, was, I think, implicitly anti-Semitic.

And, as to Bullneck, Israel is pretty close to a world power now, especially militarily.  The average Palestinian poses them no real threat, even a whole bunch of them.  Their abusive dalliances in their captured territories only make it easier for malignant fanatics like Hamas to weaponize them.  There has to be a better solution than this constant tit-for-tat that occasionally blows up into a real shooting war and Israel needs to be the "bigger person" here.