Israel

[956 Worldwide 34314]

Quote

"The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secretorganizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)

"Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

“Don’t tell oppressed people how to fight against the Jews that are behind all the wars in the world.” 
 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I'm not sure what you're saying, but we are in basic agreement I think.

Whatever Israel's original motivations for existence were, they are largely irrelevant now, especially given that most of the threats to their existence are currently religiously motivated.

For WhatTheBuck to essentially accuse Israel/"the Jews" of being religious fanatics while ignoring the fanatacism of those who threaten them, was, I think, implicitly anti-Semitic.

And, as to Bullneck, Israel is pretty close to a world power now, especially militarily.  The average Palestinian poses them no real threat, even a whole bunch of them.  Their abusive dalliances in their captured territories only make it easier for malignant fanatics like Hamas to weaponize them.  There has to be a better solution than this constant tit-for-tat that occasionally blows up into a real shooting war and Israel needs to be the "bigger person" here.

It’s a warning about Orientalizing or exoticizing this shit, and yes- accepting that Israel exists.  Look at the actual people doing the actual fighting/raping/murdering and what they have to gain in this temporal plane as opposed to chalking all up to History that the American Mind Can’t Comprehend. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

1 hour ago, DDD Dad said:

Anti-Christian or anti-any organized religion isn’t the same thing. 

Explain this to me like I’m 5 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

18 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Saying Hamas isn't committed to the destruction of Israel and a pile of dead Jews is like saying the South and Civil War wasn't about slavery.

Read the fucking documents.

I don't think anyone really disputes that the Hamas charter is pretty reactionary and bloodthirsty to put it mildly, but I think the exit polling after they were elected to lead the Palestinians is pretty telling of what the people thought was important, which is why I think that just wiping them all out is a little bit crazy:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%

Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%

Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%

Hamas government priorities: 1) Combating corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment

Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%

Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%

Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%

Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied

 

[BrickHorn 18176]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

Now the role of religion throughout history is reduced to Jim Bakker types and the pervy priests and youth ministers?

True. Religion deserves credit for carrying the torch of ignorance and superstition for millennia. Just imagine where science, technology, and medicine would be without all the innovative useless horseshit developed and foisted upon the world by religion. 

[DDD Dad 14167]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

Explain this to me like I’m 5 

The Jews are more than a religion. They are also a race. A race that numerous groups have sought to eliminate from existence. You simply can’t draw an equivalence between anti-Semitism and “anti-organized religion”. 
 

it doesn’t matter what WTB’s intentions were. I wasn’t calling him anti-Semitic nor do I have any reason to believe he harbors any such beliefs. 
 

I merely said that his statement was implicitly anti-Semitic and he should delete it (and 956 and Twice did a fine job of pointing out why). 

[Bullneck 18976]

15 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

For WhatTheBuck to essentially accuse Israel/"the Jews" of being religious fanatics while ignoring the fanatacism of those who threaten them, was, I think, implicitly anti-Semitic.

And, as to Bullneck, Israel is pretty close to a world power now, especially militarily.  The average Palestinian poses them no real threat, even a whole bunch of them.  Their abusive dalliances in their captured territories only make it easier for malignant fanatics like Hamas to weaponize them.  There has to be a better solution than this constant tit-for-tat that occasionally blows up into a real shooting war and Israel needs to be the "bigger person" here.

My interpretation of what What the Buck said was the Torah gives Jews the right to the middle east.  Since he doesn't believe in God or religion, then a made up book and Imaginary Man in the Sky isn't a good of a claim on that land as a Deed recorded at the County and some title insurance.

I think you're minimizing the threat the Palestinians pose to the Israelis, e.g., if they only kill 35 people a year that's 0.01% of the population.  

Statistically, Philadelphia is a fairly safe city.  But I wouldn't just go walking around north of Girard Boulevard right now.

[Neonmoon 38127]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't think anyone really disputes that the Hamas charter is pretty reactionary and bloodthirsty to put it mildly, but I think the exit polling after they were elected to lead the Palestinians is pretty telling of what the people thought was important, which is why I think that just wiping them all out is a little bit crazy:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%

Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%

Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%

Hamas government priorities: 1) Combating corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment

Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%

Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%

Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%

Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied

 

The majority of the United States supports abortion rights. Exit polls don’t mean shit when a teen is locked up for getting an abortion or a woman dies on the table because the cult in charge wants it that way 

[Bodhi 1111]

2 hours ago, DDD Dad said:

This is a horrible take and implicitly anti-Semitic. You should delete it. 

1 hour ago, Serak The Preparer said:

This is a bad take. I am not particularly fond of @WhatTheBuck constant stridency but he has consistently been anti- any organized religion for years.

1 hour ago, G650 said:

It doesn't seem like that's what he is doing though

58 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

FWIW I don't get how what he posted is anti-Semitic, either.  Can you explain why?

4 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Explain this to me like I’m 5 

 Might be a good opportunity to show your work on that statement

[Brian Fantana 6654]

1 minute ago, Neonmoon said:

The majority of the United States supports abortion rights. Exit polls don’t mean shit when a teen is locked up for getting an abortion or a woman dies on the table because the cult in charge wants it that way 

Sadly, very true. It would have been great if Hamas had given the people what they want. My point is that clearly people want peace with Israel. Getting it is another story.

I just don't want to see all Palestinians get wiped out like a lot of people on this board seem to want.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[SimonBolivar 10898]

 

 

Pretty big explosions every 20 min or so in Gaza

[InkaUtexas 25426]

6 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't think anyone really disputes that the Hamas charter is pretty reactionary and bloodthirsty to put it mildly, but I think the exit polling after they were elected to lead the Palestinians is pretty telling of what the people thought was important, which is why I think that just wiping them all out is a little bit crazy:

Support for a Peace Agreement with Israel: 79.5% in support; 15.5% in opposition

Should Hamas change its policies regarding Israel: Yes – 75.2%; No – 24.8%

Under Hamas corruption will decrease: Yes – 78.1%; No – 21.9%

Under Hamas internal security will improve: Yes – 67.8%; No – 32.2%

Hamas government priorities: 1) Combating corruption; 2) Ending security chaos; 3) Solving poverty/unemployment

Support for Hamas' impact on the national interest: Positive – 66.7&; Negative - 28.5%

Support for a national unity government?: Yes – 81.4%; no – 18.6%

Rejection of Fatah's decision not to join a national unity government: Yes – 72.5%; No – 27.5%

Satisfaction with election results: 64.2% satisfied; 35.8% dissatisfied

 

And they chose poorly. I would say #2 and #6 ain't working out. For #5, well there will be lots of jobs rebuilding I fear. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

The Jews are more than a religion. They are also a race. A race that numerous groups have sought to eliminate from existence. You simply can’t draw an equivalence between anti-Semitism and “anti-organized religion”. 
 

it doesn’t matter what WTB’s intentions were. I wasn’t calling him anti-Semitic nor do I have any reason to believe he harbors any such beliefs. 
 

I merely said that his statement was implicitly anti-Semitic and he should delete it (and 956 and Twice did a fine job of pointing out why). 

Is it not possible to be against the religion of the Jewish race? 

[DDD Dad 14167]

2 minutes ago, Bodhi said:

 Might be a good opportunity to show your work on that statement

Might be a good opportunity to read two posts up. 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

And they chose poorly. I would say #2 and #6 ain't working out. For #5, well there will be lots of jobs rebuilding I fear. 

Yup. They had to choose between a wet fart and a shit sandwich.

[DDD Dad 14167]

Just now, Neonmoon said:

Is it not possible to be against the religion of the Jewish race? 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And they chose poorly. I would say #2 and #6 ain't working out. For #5, well there will be lots of jobs rebuilding I fear. 

A lot of people trot out “Fatah is corrupt, you have to understand the context” as if Hamas is something different than “corrupt, plus they want to destroy all the Jews!” 

[InkaUtexas 25426]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yup. They had to choose between a wet fart and a shit sandwich.

So if that is how they believe, why no viable other parties? Oh wait, they tend to get shut down right away. 

[Dbeasy 14953]

So……a few people have tried to answer my question but unfortunately the results are still muddy. Let me try again to clarify the question I’m asking:

Is the root issue of this conflict the fact that Palestines refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist, and won’t accept a limited second state? Or do you have a different view? Why?

Again I don’t care about Hamas, because they may or may not represent the views of the greater Palestinian population, so stop referencing them. Do the majority of Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist? Yes or no? Would they accept a second state? Yes or no? Is this the root cause of the conflict? Yes or No? And if no, why not and what is?

Edited October 9, 2023 by Dbeasy

[Aqua Buddha 14489]

7 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

So……a few people have tried to answer my question but unfortunately the results are still muddy. Let me try again to clarify the question I’m asking:

Is the root issue of this conflict the fact that Palestines refuse to accept Israel’s right to exist, and won’t accept a limited second state? Or do you have a different view? Why?

Again I don’t care about Hamas, because they may or may not represent the views of the greater Palestinian population, so stop referencing them. Do the majority of Palestinians accept the right of Israel to exist? Yes or no? Would they accept a second state? Yes or no? Is this the root cause of the conflict? Yes or No? And if no, why not and what is?

Clinton basically brokered that in 2000 and they turned it down.

[Hornius Emeritus 12403]

51 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

The Hamas Covenant

 

The Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement was issued on August 18, 1988. The Islamic Resistance Movement, also known as the HAMAS, is an extremist fundamentalist Islamic organization operating in the territories under Israeli control. Its Covenant is a comprehensive manifesto comprised of 36 separate articles, all of which promote the basic HAMAS goal of destroying the State of Israel through Jihad (Islamic Holy War). The following are excerpts of the HAMAS Covenant:

•  

  Goals of the HAMAS:

  "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine." (Article 6)

   

  On the destruction of Israel:

  "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Preamble)

   

  The exclusive Moslem nature of the area:

  "The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it." (Article 11)

  "Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be." (Article 13)

   

  The call to jihad:

  "The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised." (Article 15)

  "Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about." (Article 33)

   

  Rejection of a negotiated peace settlement:

  "[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility." (Article 13)

   

  Condemnation of the Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty:

  "Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle. ...Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act." (Article 32)

   

  Anti-Semitic incitement:

  The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him." (Article 7)

  "The enemies have been scheming for a long time ... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it." (Article 22)

  "Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'." (Article 32)

  "The HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews." (Article 32)

  
   

  Analysis of the Hamas Charter
  (Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center)

   

  From address by FM Avigdor Liberman to the Global Forum for Combating Antisemitism - Dec 2009

   

  The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement's ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter's stance is uncompromising. It views the "problem of Palestine" as a religious-political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the "infidel" Jews. "Palestine" is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

   

  That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel's right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana,4 that "Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before."

   

  Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad's deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading "strategy" in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation.

   

  The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur'an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur'an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: "No war takes place anywhere without the Jews' being behind it" (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).

   

  The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of "Palestine" from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas's terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that "the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine' is the personal duty" of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

   

  The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds or "the spread of Islamic consciousness" within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that "Islamic consciousness" is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out.

   

  As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered territories: it must be "purified," purged of "the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries" (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur'an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are "books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc." When imbued with "correct" Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing "liberation campaign" (Article 19).

   

  The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur'an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the "terrorist Jewish enemy," described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various "charitable societies" set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).

   

  The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization's secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every "nationalist trend" working "to liberate Palestine" and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).

  The Hamas charter is the document which sets out the movement’s ideology as it was formulated and honed by its founders. It includes its radical Islamic world view (conceived by the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt), which has basically not changed in the 18 years of its existence. With regard to Israel, the charter s stance is uncompromising. It views the “problem of Palestine” as a religious political Muslim issue, and the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as a conflict between Islam and the “infidel” Jews. “Palestine” is presented as sacred Islamic land and it is strictly forbidden to give up an inch of it because no one (including Arab-Muslim rulers) has the authority to do so. With regard to international relations, the charter manifests an extremist worldview which is as anti-Western as Al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.

   

  That worldview brings in its wake the refusal to recognize the State of Israel’s right to exist as an independent, sovereign nation, the waging of a ceaseless jihad (holy war) against it and total opposition to any agreement or arrangement that would recognize its right to exist. At the beginning of the charter there is a quotation attributed to Hassan Al-Bana, that “Israel will arise and continue to exist until Islam wipes it out, as it wiped out what went before.”

   

  Overt, vicious anti-Semitism, with both Islamic and Christian-European origins, is used extensively throughout the document. The all-out holy war (jihad) against the Jewish people is legitimized by presenting the Jews in a negative light and demonizing them as wanting to take over not only the Middle East but also the rest of the world. One of the jihad’s deadliest manifestations is suicide bombing terrorism, which was developed mainly by Hamas during the 1990s and has become its leading “strategy” in the ongoing violent Israeli-Palestinian confrontation. 

   

  The Jews are also presented as worthy of only humiliation and lives of misery. That is because, according to the charter, they angered Allah, rejected the Qur’an and killed the prophets (the relevant Qur’an verse from Surah Aal-‘Imran is quoted at the beginning of the charter). The document also includes anti-Semitic myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (mentioned in Article 32) regarding Jewish control of the media, the film industry and education (Articles 17 and 22). The myths are constantly repeated to represent the Jews as responsible for the French and Russian revolutions and for all world and local wars: “No war takes place anywhere  without the Jews’ being behind it” (Article 22). The charter demonizes the Jews and describes them as brutally behaving like Nazis toward women and children (Article 29).

   

  The charter views the jihad (holy war) as the way to take all of “Palestine” from the Jews and to destroy the State of Israel, and Hamas’s terrorist attacks are seen as links in the jihad chain carried out during the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Article 15 states that “the jihad to liberate ‘Palestine’ is the personal duty [fardh ‘ayn]” of every Muslim, an idea expounded by ‘Abdallah ‘Azzam.

   

  The charter emphasizes the battle for Muslim hearts and minds, or, “the spread of Islamic consciousness” (al-wa’i al-islami), within three main spheres: the Palestinians, the Arab Muslims and the non-Arab Muslims (Article 15). The process of fostering and spreading that “Islamic consciousness” (amaliyyat al taw aiyah) is defined as its most important mission. Clerics, educators, men of culture, those active in the media and information services and the generally educated public all have the responsibility to carry it out (ibid.).

   

  As part of the battle for hearts and minds, the charter places a special emphasis on education [i.e., indoctrination] in the spirit of radical Islam, based on the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood. Fundamental changes must be made, it states, in the educational system in the PA-administered  territories: it must be “purified,” purged of “the influences of the ideological invasion brought by the Orientalists and missionaries” (Article 15), and the younger generation should be given a radical Islamic education based exclusively on the Qur’an and the Muslim tradition (the Sunnah). The means used for ideological recruitment, as detailed in the charter, are “books, articles, publications, sermons, flyers, folk songs, poetic language, songs, plays, etc.” When imbued with “correct” Islamic belief and culture, they become an important means of raising morale and building the psychological fixation and emotional strength necessary for a continuing “liberation campaign” (Article 19).

   

  The charter stresses the importance of Muslim solidarity according to the commands of the Qur’an and Sunnah, especially in view of the confrontation taking place between Palestinian society and the “terrorist Jewish enemy,” described as Nazi-like. One of the expressions of that solidarity is aid to the needy (one of whose main manifestations is the network of various “charitable societies” set up by Hamas, which integrate social activities and support of terrorism).

   

  The charter makes a point of the ideological difference between Hamas, with its radical Islamic world view, and the secularly-oriented The Palestine Liberation Organization, but pays lip service to the need for Palestinian unity needed to face the Jewish enemy. It notes that an Islamic world view completely contradicts The Palestine Liberation Organization’s secular orientation and the idea of a secular Palestinian state. Nevertheless, notes the charter, Hamas is prepared to aid and support every “nationalist trend” working “to liberate Palestine” and is not interested in creating schisms and disagreements (Article 27).

TL;DR

[TwiceHorn 31184]

28 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Explain this to me like I’m 5 

I've tried to.  Yes, Israel has its origins in what could be considered a form of religious fanaticism.

Their current and long-standing opponents are religious fanatics and that is the reason for their antagonism.

To criticize Israel for being religious fanatics while ignoring that they have been under siege by religious fanatics and remain so to this day, is, well, something.

[6th Street 6340]

Netanyahu thinks blacks are a bigger threat to Israel than terrorism.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-flood-of-african-migrants-worse-than-sinai-terrorists/

 

[Dbeasy 14953]

To just follow on to the earlier post, doesn’t the selection of a side and all of the arguing in this thread and in the world come down to the simple fact that one side says Israel should exist and one side says it shouldn’t? And the basis for each side’s position is the point in time when a certain set of people had conquered that land?

[Doc Sam Beckett 5781]

Imagine being shipwrecked on an island, Lost style. You're despondent until you see another person walking towards you. A wave of relief washes over you, you're not in this alone. But that other person is WhatTheBuck, and after a week of him talking incessantly and explaining everything, you begin to wonder if you didn't actually die and are in hell. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

I read the original exchange again and understand the context now. It was attempted false equivalency between the fanaticism of a group determined to wipe out all Jews and some ancient religious text about land. 

[BrickHorn 18176]

12 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Algebra, the printing press, Jesuits, fatwas, the inquisition, wars, charities, medicine and hospitals, sexual abuse, colonizing less fortunate peoples, helping less fortunate peoples, literature, censorship, scholarship, dogma - religion and religious people have had a role in all of it.

You’re muddling religion with religious people. The positive advances you rattled off were at best instances of religious people setting aside their religion to do something productive. Algebra isn’t religious. It’s a development that can only happen when one sets aside the superstition, mythology, and supernatural nonsense that constitutes religion and instead apply logic and reason. 

Religion isn’t the only worthless garbage out there, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t worthless garbage. Because it is. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

2 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Netanyahu thinks blacks are a bigger threat to Israel than terrorism.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-says-flood-of-african-migrants-worse-than-sinai-terrorists/

 

Well shit, I didn’t know Netanyahu said that that. Now I’m ok with gunning down 250 hippies at a peace rave in the desert and kidnapping four year olds, what other response is appropriate! 
 

Thanks for this super relevant information that isn’t at all #bothsides, you should send it to the Nepalese migrant workers currently stashed in some fucking tunnel in Gaza. 

[Gatorubet 30064]

56 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The motivations of the people doing those things is not best understood with reference to the division of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. 

Pardon the lawyer references, but Louisiana is a pure comparative fault state.  That means if I am 95% responsible for my injury but you are 5%, you still are responsible for the 5%.

Which is to say, while WWI is not the reason for the recent Hamas massacre, there is some nexus in some percentage.  I forget the name of the excellent book I read years ago by an Arab author who said you can’t really understand the depth of the anger and inferiority complex unless you viewed it through the lens of the humiliation of the ottoman empire being split up by European countries carving lines in the sand…..they thought that humiliation could be avenged by siding with the Axis against the guys who carved the sand lines.   That did not go well for them either. 

insert you chose poorly gif

Then Nasser had a vision that raised hope that also did not end well.  Israel forming was not an Arab success.   1968 war ditto.  Yom Kippur war ending ditto.   Iraq war ditto.  Iran nuclear quest ditto.  

Think of a football program that has been UT’s bitch forever who hates you cause they ain’t you.   I think you need to look at Muslim views in that locale with a nod to at least some recognition that the motivation for this includes that DNA unhappiness at being the West’s bitch for a century.     What percentage I do not know. 

So your point about WWI is well taken.  But it is a small piece of the puzzle. 

[Gatorubet 30064]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well shit, I didn’t know Netanyahu said that that. Now I’m ok with gunning down 250 hippies at a peace rave in the desert and kidnapping four year olds, what other response is appropriate! 
 

Thanks for this super relevant information that isn’t at all #bothsides, you should send it to the Nepalese migrant workers currently stashed in some fucking tunnel in Gaza. 

You provide some of the best information on this site in an area of the world where you have more expertise than we do. I enjoy all of your posts. I learn a lot, but I have to say that you seem far more emotionally invested in this than the other topics we’ve talked about. For as strong a poster as you are, you seem to be straw man-ing a bunch of folks who I don’t think are meaning the type of things you attribute to them.

Not trying to start something buddy. Just an observation.

[956 Worldwide 34314]

11 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

Pardon the lawyer references, but Louisiana is a pure comparative fault state.  That means if I am 95% responsible for my injury but you are 5%, you still are responsible for the 5%.

Which is to say, while WWI is not the reason for the recent Hamas massacre, there is some nexus in some percentage.  I forget the name of the excellent book I read years ago by an Arab author who said you can’t really understand the depth of the anger and inferiority complex unless you viewed it through the lens of the humiliation of the ottoman empire being split up by European countries carving lines in the sand…..they thought that humiliation could be avenged by siding with the Axis against the guys who carved the sand lines.   That did not go well for them either. 

insert you chose poorly gif

Then Nasser had a vision that raised hope that also did not end well.  Israel forming was not an Arab success.   1968 war ditto.  Yom Kippur war ending ditto.   Iraq war ditto.  Iran nuclear quest ditto.  

Think of a football program that has been UT’s bitch forever who hates you cause they ain’t you.   I think you need to look at Muslim views in that locale with a nod to at least some recognition that the motivation for this includes that DNA unhappiness at being the West’s bitch for a century.     What percentage I do not know. 

So your point about WWI is well taken.  But it is a small piece of the puzzle. 

I don’t like painting in broad Arab/Muslim/etc brush strokes. I’ve lived and worked in the broader Islamic world (not the Levant) and it just ain’t that simple. I will say this— there is a massive grievance industry, and if you scratch at it, the real anger isn’t that what the West did. The anger is over the fact that the West and not Islam was strong enough to do so. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[956 Worldwide 34314]

4 minutes ago, Gatorubet said:

You provide some of the best information on this site in an area of the world where you have more expertise than we do. I enjoy all of your posts. I learn a lot, but I have to say that you seem far more emotionally invested in this than the other topics we’ve talked about. For as strong a poster as you are, you seem to be straw man-ing a bunch of folks who I don’t think are meaning the type of things you attribute to them.

Not trying to start something buddy. Just an observation.

I think it’s bullshit to quote one of the worst politician’s awful ideas when we are talking about specific terrorist attacks against people who are not him. Sort of like saying that the most awful Afghan clerics’ worst quotes justify a drone strike against a wedding. 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

17 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

To just follow on to the earlier post, doesn’t the selection of a side and all of the arguing in this thread and in the world come down to the simple fact that one side says Israel should exist and one side says it shouldn’t? And the basis for each side’s position is the point in time when a certain set of people had conquered that land?

Well, as far as Israel's concerned, its right to exist stopped being a religious matter and became a matter of sovereignty under international law in 1948.  Thereafter, its right to exist was only really a question to Islamic fundamentalists.  At this point in time, I think sane people should stop talking about Israel's right to exist other than as a theoretical matter concerning the wisdom of creating an ethnostate in the 20th century, but not its current status or legitimacy vis a vis Islamic fundamentallists.

As to your other questions, the Palestinian Authority and its predecessor the PLO represent the will of the Palestinian people about like Donald Trump represented the will of the American people, except a lot less so.  Is it fair to attribute the abuses of the Hamas-controlled PA to the Palestinian people?  Yes and no.  The PA hasn't held elections in 15 years, for one thing.

Netanyahu is an asshole like Orban, Trump, and Putin.  The Israeli people bear some responsibility for electing him, continually, just like the Palestinans bear some responsibility for being governed and controlled by Hamas.  They actually probably bear more than the Palestinians because Israel's government/democracy is significantly more functional than "Palestine's."

Of course, Netanyahu is not the only asshole the Israelis have elected, but he's pretty much the biggest one and in some very different ways from his predecessors (authoritarian tendencies, mostly).

It's a fucking mess and both sides bear a lot of blame.  Considering that Israel is far wealthier, better educated, and functional, to me, puts a bigger onus on them not to respond in kind to terrorists.  But the Islamicists are persistent as fuck and occasionally very, very dangerous.

 

[Brisketexan 104465]

I don’t like painting in broad Arab/Muslim/etc brush strokes. I’ve lived and worked in the broader Islamic world (not the Levant) and it just ain’t that simple. I will say this— there is a massive grievance industry, and if you scratch at it, the real anger isn’t that what the West did. The anger is over the fact that the West and not Islam was strong enough to do so. 

There’s a WHOLE lot of this. If we’re going to talk about centuries old shit…ok then. The “Muslim world” (Ottoman empire and variations thereof) attempted to conquer “the west.” The Battle of Vienna put an end to that in the late 1600s. And the people that would become the remnants of the Ottoman Empire have been bitter as hell about it since. Yeah, there’s an old, old grudge running through ALL of this shit.
In fact, it’s big enough to be a “but for” thing. But for that, the conflict between the Muslim world (which happily uses the Palestinian people as its primary proxy) and “the west” wouldn’t be remotely what it is today.
Any of y’all think a world dominated by Muslim powers instead of western ones would be any better than what we’ve ended up with? Don’t delude yourselves.

[Hagbard Celine 10734]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:04 AM, Doc Sam Beckett said:

Yeah I'm curious how involved Iran is in this

hamas fired 4000 rockets as fast as they could to overwhelm iron dome

four thousand

that took time

hamas does not have the economy to do this alone

more shocking is how both us and israeli intelligence didn't pick this up

we new vlad was moving

ostensibly this was a 100% miss

[Hagbard Celine 10734]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:28 PM, tx 3 putt said:

Israeli intelligence got fucking played

if they did then so did we

[Smax 3799]

I think Israel is going in dry and this will get ugly for the Palestinians, and rightfully so IMO.  Targeting civilians, especially the way they did is a big no no

[InkaUtexas 25426]

Live feeds already showing increase in hits in Gaza. 

[TwiceHorn 31184]

While I lay a lot of blame on Israel for the situation, at this juncture I can't begrudge them going absolutely scorched earth.

A DMZ in part of the occupied territories might actually make some sense.

[bernorange 8346]

26 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

if they did then so did we

Quote

...
The capability of Hamas to coordinate terrorist attacks on Israeli towns without detection has raised concerns about technological blind spots for US intelligence officials, a senior US intelligence official told CNN.
...

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/07/politics/us-officials-israeli-intelligence-concerns/index.html

I guess they didn't discuss their plans on Twitter/Facebook...

[Gatorubet 30064]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

1) I don’t like painting in broad Arab/Muslim/etc brush strokes. I’ve lived and worked in the broader Islamic world (not the Levant) and it just ain’t that simple.

2) I will say this— there is a massive grievance industry, and if you scratch at it, the real anger isn’t that what the West did. The anger is over the fact that the West and not Islam was strong enough to do so. 

1) I never said it was simple. I said it was a piece of the puzzle to consider.

2) well, I think it is both and they are inter-related. And I thought I had conveyed the gist of your last sentence in my post.  But probably not clearly, as I am freaking exhausted from traveling all day and just got home. Lots of young women travelers in yoga pants.  That subtracts from my political ruminations clarity while texting waiting to de-plane.  

 

[Hagbard Celine 10734]

read the first 3 pages of the current situation and no one has mentioned oslo which i hope changed

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

8 hours ago, Bullneck said:

FWIW I don't get how what he posted is anti-Semitic, either.  Can you explain why?

He’s confusing religion with race. 

[G650 13990]

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Very Smart People who talk about history give me the cringe as an Eastern Europe hand.  You need to know the history to understand the chess board, but a lot of this shit reminds me of the Very Smart People who try to explain the Balkans.  People in 2023 have agency and get to make their own decisions, even within the bounds that history and geopolitics hand them. There was nothing inevitable about Srebrenica or Milosevic. Hamas shooting up a hippie music festival and executing children in front of their families is also not determined or inevitable. The motivations of the people doing those things is not best understood with reference to the division of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. 

Its literally the only way to understand it, but by all means analyze this incident in a vacuum. Usually works well.

 

ETA: At no point did I say anything about Israel not having a right to exist, or give any justification for Hamas. But if anyone doesn't know the history, they are frankly not qualified to speak on this matter (which of course isn't going to stop anyone from opining, just look at this thread). No action happens in a vacuum, me responding to this post is a downstream action of things that happened 100 years ago. It's not removing agency to talk about this, it's adding context to how we got here.

 

As @Gatorubet said you are generally a great poster, but you are frankly acting like an emotional toddler on this. Personally my biggest beef with Isreal isn't their existence, it's they are a really shitty ally, which as a "hand" you should be well aware of, and maybe you probably should recognize that maybe you aren't the smartest guy in the room on this one.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by G650

[WhatTheBuck 28700]

8 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Religion sucks. 

It poisons everything. And religious conservatives are the worst…in every religion. They’re the ones who don’t want peace. They’re the ones who assassinate their own leaders for trying to make peace with the other side like they did to Anwar Sadat in Egypt and Yitzhak Rabin in Israel (for separate peace deals, of course).

[DaysOff 7821]

Monotheism is the worst thing humanity ever invented. These 3 major religions have been a net negative for the human condition. It's all made up bullshit people. Get on with living your short life.

[Bullneck 18976]

6 hours ago, Hagbard Celine said:

read the first 3 pages of the current situation and no one has mentioned oslo which i hope changed

Quote

What is that? 

The Oslo Accords are a pair of agreements between Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO): the Oslo I Accord, signed in Washington, D.C., in 1993;^[1] and the Oslo II Accord, signed in Taba, Egypt, in 1995.^[2] They marked the start of the Oslo process, a peace process aimed at achieving a peace treaty based on Resolution 242 and Resolution 338 of the United Nations Security Council, and at fulfilling the "right of the Palestinian people to self-determination". The Oslo process began after secret negotiations in Oslo, Norway, resulting in both the recognition of Israel by the PLO and the recognition by Israel of the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and as a partner in bilateral negotiations.

Among the notable outcomes of the Oslo Accords was the creation of the Palestinian National Authority, which was tasked with the responsibility of conducting limited Palestinian self-governance over parts of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip; and the international acknowledgement of the PLO as Israel's partner in permanent-status negotiations about any remaining issues revolving around the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. Bilateral dialogue stems from questions related to the international border between Israel and a future Palestinian state: negotiations for this subject are centred around Israeli settlements, the status of Jerusalem, Israel's maintenance of control over security following the establishment of Palestinian autonomy, and the Palestinian right of return. The Oslo Accords did not create a definite Palestinian state.^[3]

A large portion of the Palestinian population, including various Palestinian militant groups, staunchly opposed the Oslo Accords; Palestinian-American philosopher Edward Said described them as a "Palestinian Versailles".^[4]

Edited October 9, 2023 by Bullneck

[Goofyboy 3156]

How long till Israel shoots at Iran?

[Dbeasy 14953]

11 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Well, as far as Israel's concerned, its right to exist stopped being a religious matter and became a matter of sovereignty under international law in 1948.  Thereafter, its right to exist was only really a question to Islamic fundamentalists.  At this point in time, I think sane people should stop talking about Israel's right to exist other than as a theoretical matter concerning the wisdom of creating an ethnostate in the 20th century, but not its current status or legitimacy vis a vis Islamic fundamentallists.

As to your other questions, the Palestinian Authority and its predecessor the PLO represent the will of the Palestinian people about like Donald Trump represented the will of the American people, except a lot less so.  Is it fair to attribute the abuses of the Hamas-controlled PA to the Palestinian people?  Yes and no.  The PA hasn't held elections in 15 years, for one thing.

Netanyahu is an asshole like Orban, Trump, and Putin.  The Israeli people bear some responsibility for electing him, continually, just like the Palestinans bear some responsibility for being governed and controlled by Hamas.  They actually probably bear more than the Palestinians because Israel's government/democracy is significantly more functional than "Palestine's."

Of course, Netanyahu is not the only asshole the Israelis have elected, but he's pretty much the biggest one and in some very different ways from his predecessors (authoritarian tendencies, mostly).

It's a fucking mess and both sides bear a lot of blame.  Considering that Israel is far wealthier, better educated, and functional, to me, puts a bigger onus on them not to respond in kind to terrorists.  But the Islamicists are persistent as fuck and occasionally very, very dangerous.

 

This thread seems to be caught up in what bad deeds Israel and Hamas are currently doing, while not addressing the fundamental root cause of the entire issue. 

Of course Israel believes it has a right to exist. The problem is that large chunks of the Arab world don’t, and are using Hamas as a tool to fight it. And of course Hamas probably doesn’t represent the broader views of the Palestinian people. 

But ultimately, Israel has been stuck because a large faction of the Arab world will not acknowledge their right to exist. Until this is accepted, the atrocities on both sides will continue to escalate. It is their way of putting pressure on the other side to achieve their ultimate objectives.  It is simply a war strategy.

You can be mad about Israel’s behavior and Hamas’ behavior in this conflict, and pick a side based upon that.  

But the only solution to this issue is for the Arab world and the Palestinian government to accept Israel’s right to exist and a two state solution. The ball is in and has been in the Arab world’s and Palestinian’s “court” for decades. 

Israel has even shown in the past to give up territories to countries that sign peace agreements (Egypt).  

So while it’s terrible seeing some of the behaviors of Israel towards the Palestinians, ultimately the Palestinians can stop it, and just won’t. I find it difficult to blame Israel nearly as much as the other side given all of this.  

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Dbeasy

[Captainant 27311]

32 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

So while it’s terrible seeing some of the behaviors of Israel towards the Palestinians, ultimately they can stop it, and just won’t. I find it difficult to blame Israel nearly as much as the other side given all of this.  

I think Israel would have more support if they weren't running an apartheid state - and Hamas would have less material and political support for their atrocities against Israel as reprisals. Everyone sucks here, but ultimately you're right. The root of the problem is a disagreement over Israels fundamental right to exist.

It's no coincidence that all of this is happening on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur War.