Israel

[M12BH 544]

Somewhat surprised that this discussion is as relatively civil as it is.  As a Jewish American I am completely gutted reading about and seeing elderly Israelis gunned down at bus stops, Kibbutz families pulled from their homes and slaughtered, and worst of all, hundreds massacred and injured at a fucking open air music festival where attendees were chased down like rabbits with nowhere to hide.  And the bodies of Jewish women paraded naked through the streets of Gaza while cheering crowds spit on their corpses.  And yeah, I'll be thinking about it while attending ACL this weekend.  I'm sorry, there is NOTHING, no treatment, no policies, no grievances, and the Palestinians certainly have plenty, that justifies this. 

One more thought - Hamas has been tolerated, if not welcomed, as the overlords of Gaza for a long time.  So Hamas acts with the tacit approval of the populace.  If the Palestinians of Gaza want peace, and "to just live their lives", maybe try a different approach and find different leaders rather than supporting a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to demolish Israel and build a Palestinian state on the bloody bodies of the hated Jews.  They fucked around and now they are about to find out. And it's going to suck for everyone.   

[David Dennison 18608]

36 minutes ago, G650 said:

There's more than a touch of anti Semitism involved with the actual founding of Israel.

 

But, if you will it, it is no dream.

And also a little bit of terrorism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

[David Dennison 18608]

4 minutes ago, M12BH said:

Somewhat surprised that this discussion is as relatively civil as it is.  As a Jewish American I am completely gutted reading about and seeing elderly Israelis gunned down at bus stops, Kibbutz families pulled from their homes and slaughtered, and worst of all, hundreds massacred and injured at a fucking open air music festival where attendees were chased down like rabbits with nowhere to hide.  And the bodies of Jewish women paraded naked through the streets of Gaza while cheering crowds spit on their corpses.  And yeah, I'll be thinking about it while attending ACL this weekend.  I'm sorry, there is NOTHING, no treatment, no policies, no grievances, and the Palestinians certainly have plenty, that justifies this. 

One more thought - Hamas has been tolerated, if not welcomed, as the overlords of Gaza for a long time.  So Hamas acts with the tacit approval of the populace.  If the Palestinians of Gaza want peace, and "to just live their lives", maybe try a different approach and find different leaders rather than supporting a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to demolish Israel and build a Palestinian state on the bloody bodies of the hated Jews.  They fucked around and now they are about to find out. And it's going to suck for everyone.   

What justifies Israeli forces killing Palestinian women and children?

[Nivek 16808]

42 minutes ago, sidis said:

just checking in to see if a decades (if not millenniums) long dispute that reflects the absolute worst in humanity from all perspectives has been resolved in this thread...

plan in place.

I can solve it.  No one would like it, but it would be solved.

 

[Hugo Stiglitz 23356]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I can solve it.  No one would like it, but it would be solved.

So you’re saying the solution would be conclusive?  

(delicately playing with fire here)

[Doc Sam Beckett 5781]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

My comments before were aimed at people who were lobbing all sorts of hot takes without any grasp of how we got here, not as an analysis of this particular act.

[RomaVicta 29756]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

What justifies Israeli forces killing Palestinian women and children?

He said fucking around and finding out. Eyes for eyes and teeth for teeth. A tale as old as time all over the world. Can't say that I'm above it, but I don't try to use it as a rational explanation for my actions.

I was in LA for the riots 30 years ago. Such a thin veneer is civilization.

[dieucla98 2931]

58 minutes ago, sidis said:

just checking in to see if a decades (if not millenniums) long dispute that reflects the absolute worst in humanity from all perspectives has been resolved in this thread...

plan in place.

No but it berthed the "USS FAFO" so I'd say this thread is in the 99.995% percentile of most productive threads on this board.

Edited October 9, 2023 by dieucla98

[wildcat09 29187]

5 minutes ago, M12BH said:

Somewhat surprised that this discussion is as relatively civil as it is.  As a Jewish American I am completely gutted reading about and seeing elderly Israelis gunned down at bus stops, Kibbutz families pulled from their homes and slaughtered, and worst of all, hundreds massacred and injured at a fucking open air music festival where attendees were chased down like rabbits with nowhere to hide.  And the bodies of Jewish women paraded naked through the streets of Gaza while cheering crowds spit on their corpses.  And yeah, I'll be thinking about it while attending ACL this weekend.  I'm sorry, there is NOTHING, no treatment, no policies, no grievances, and the Palestinians certainly have plenty, that justifies this. 

One more thought - Hamas has been tolerated, if not welcomed, as the overlords of Gaza for a long time.  So Hamas acts with the tacit approval of the populace.  If the Palestinians of Gaza want peace, and "to just live their lives", maybe try a different approach and find different leaders rather than supporting a terrorist organization whose stated goal is to demolish Israel and build a Palestinian state on the bloody bodies of the hated Jews.  They fucked around and now they are about to find out. And it's going to suck for everyone.   

Nothing justifies what Hamas has done.  Nothing could. But what they've done is the type of thing that tends to happen when you brutally oppress a population for too long.   We've seen it happen literally every single place a colonial force has occupied an indigenous society.  Even in a place like India where we typically associate resistance with nonviolence.  Violence begets violence and Israel's far right and its campaign of oppression and violence against Palestinians was only ever going to empower Hamas or someone else like them.

The far right in both Israel and Palestine have done a great job empowering each other and ensuring that no peaceful resolution is possible. Some assholes just love to fight and to kill and will drag millions along with them.  

[tx ind 6996]

USS Take the loss pussy

[Evil Bill Obrien 3164]

17 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

So you’re saying the solution would be conclusive?  

(delicately playing with fire here)

Going to hell anyways, may as well get a chuckle out of this

[sidis 9713]

i was ready to drag dead ou fans and dillon gabriel through the street naked and spit on him on saturday at 3pm so...

look, this is about as impossible as it gets.  it really is unfortunately and i hate it.   i used to spend a lot of time involved in advocacy related to israel/palestine and doing economic work to try and move the stakeholders forward.  everyone who believes that israel is pure or even superior on this should read "fallen pillars."  anyone that thinks that the palestinians are purely victims in this thing is delusional and unfamiliar with how the biggest political benefactors were trading on others' suffering.  this whole thing would require abating the worst and most natural instincts of humankind.  people acting like they can't possibly contemplate being so animal as to parade dead israelis through the streets have also never had their loved ones mercilessly and needlessly murdered in front of their eyes.  you might be surprised what you are capable of in that scenario.  which, of course, does not excuse acting as extremists in palestine have.  

the cycle is so fucking wretched and there is empathy for both positions from the outside.  but from the inside, it is about hate and survival every single day.

and over one of the ugliest and shittiest places ever.  that's what makes the irrational religious element of it so crazy to me.  that this all-time dispute exists over fucking israel and not over san diego or french polynesia is bizarre.

Edited October 9, 2023 by sidis

[Dbeasy 14953]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

Arabs live on the Arabian Peninsula. The Arab world is not representative of the Muslim community as a whole.

Egypt has fairly stable agreement with Israel. They would rather partner than fight. It was Egypts military that evacuated the Israeli ambassadors in 2011, and it was Israel that gave Egypt permission to launch ground attacks on Sinai with IDF providing air support. Through the chaos that Egypt has had in the past 20 years the relationship has remained solid.

And what did Egypt do differently than other Arab neighbors? They signed a peace agreement that recognized Israel’s right to exist. And then, tada, Israel returned land to them. There’s a path to peace that some are refusing to consider. 

[G650 13990]

7 minutes ago, sidis said:

that this all-time dispute exists over fucking israel and not over san diego or french polynesia is bizarre.

I propose we annex Santa Barbara. I say let's empty the wreath fund for some mercenaries.

[wildcat09 29187]

3 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

And what did Egypt do differently than other Arab neighbors? They signed a peace agreement that recognized Israel’s right to exist. And then, tada, Israel returned land to them. There’s a path to peace that some are refusing to consider. 

This Israeli government is not that Israeli government, and the state of Egypt is not the same as an unrepresented indigenous population oppressed by an apartheid regime. 

[hobbes2702 12771]

27 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Nothing justifies what Hamas has done.  Nothing could. But what they've done is the type of thing that tends to happen when you brutally oppress a population for too long.   We've seen it happen literally every single place a colonial force has occupied an indigenous society.  Even in a place like India where we typically associate resistance with nonviolence.  Violence begets violence and Israel's far right and its campaign of oppression and violence against Palestinians was only ever going to empower Hamas or someone else like them.

The far right in both Israel and Palestine have done a great job empowering each other and ensuring that no peaceful resolution is possible. Some assholes just love to fight and to kill and will drag millions along with them.  

This is an exceptional post.

[bolverk 29360]

10 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

And what did Egypt do differently than other Arab neighbors? They signed a peace agreement that recognized Israel’s right to exist. And then, tada, Israel returned land to them. There’s a path to peace that some are refusing to consider. 

The PLO signed the Oslo Accords and recognized Israel's right to exist, but the Israeli government has continued to allow the expansion of settlements all across the West Bank, denying the ability of the Palestinian Authority to build a viable state for its people. 

[C-Man 26992]

Mia Khalifa enters the chat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12610939/mia-khalifa-tweet-israel.html

Quote

Porn star Mia Khalifa has sparked fury online after loudly supporting the terror attacks by Hamas that left hundreds of Israelis dead.

The 30-year-old repeatedly supported the group's bombings and kidnappings to her five million followers on X, urging the aggressors to film horizontally so she could better watch the carnage.

The Lebanese-American posted: 'Can someone please tell the freedom fighters in Palestine to flip their phones and film horizontal.'

She made light of the horror conflict, joking about a 'Zionist apartheid regime being brought down by guerrilla fighters in fake Gucci shirts'.

Khalifa also shared an image of the terrorists riding in the back of a pick-up truck, calling it a 'Renaissance painting.'

-----

This morning, harrowing dashcam footage from the incident showed gunmen executing civilians as they lay in the sand before rifling through their pockets and emptying bags from their cars.

But the former porn star was not moved by the criticism, and continued defending Hamas' actions as justified.

She reposted a message saying 'the United States of America is also a terrorist state' and went after Kylie Jenner for sharing and then deleting a message in support of Israel.

'If true journalism exists, the next person to talk to Kylie Jenner will ask for her opinion on geopolitical tensions in the Middle East and not break eye contact until she can string one coherent sentence together since she wants to take a stance to her 400M followers so badly,' Khalifa wrote.

Khalifa was born in Beirut and moved to the stages as a kid in 2001 during the South Lebanon conflict with Israel

Khalifa apparently lost a business deal following her posts, with a company named Red Light Holland informing her she had been 'fired effectively' due to her 'horrendous' posts, but she doubled down.

'I'd say supporting Palestine has lost me business opportunities, but I'm more angry at myself for not checking whether or not I was entering into business with Zionists. My bad,' she said. 

She continued defending her request that the terrorists film horizontally: 'I just wanna make sure there's 4k footage of my people breaking down the walls of the open air prison they've been forced out of their homes and into so we have good options for the history books that write about how how they freed themselves from apartheid. 

'I'm from LEBANON, are you insane for expecting me to be on the side of colonialism you f***ing weirdo.

Khalifa was born in Beirut and moved to the stages as a kid in 2001 during the South Lebanon conflict with Israel.

She has always expressed support for what she calls Palestinian's 'right to end Israeli occupation' and often denounces 'Zionists.'

The US-based star, whose real name is Sarah Joe Chamoun, used to work in the porn industry but now speaks out against it.

She became a controversial figure after filming sketches while wearing a hijab, and revealed in 2019 that she had received death threats over her work. 

She's only 30?!?!

[Ted Lange 15991]

 

 

[InkaUtexas 25426]

5 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Mia Khalifa enters the chat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12610939/mia-khalifa-tweet-israel.html

She's only 30?!?!

I wonder if she realizes how Hamas would treat her. Pornstar, moved to the west, only wears a Hijab when sucking off someone. 

[wildcat09 29187]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

This is an exceptional post.

I'd started typing a Brisket-length post, but it ended up just being that same post in a few thousand more words. I think the real problem, and the reason this conflict will either (a) never end, or (b) "end" in an Israeli genocide of the Palestinians, is that the Israeli state (at least as run by its right-wing governments) is a settler-colonial state and the answer to resolving violence between colonizers and colonized is usually for the colonizers to go home.  But the Israeli people have nowhere else to go either. Hell, we (the "we" in this case being pretty much the rest of the world) gave them Israel because some Zionists wanted it and nobody else wanted to take a bunch of Jews in.  

I used to believe a pluralistic Israel was possible. Maybe at one point it really was. But that doesn't seem possible anymore. And while plenty of blame for that can be laid at the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah, I think it primarily lies with the far-right in Israel.  Just as nothing could possibly justify what Hamas has done, nothing could possibly justify the Israeli government's brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.  I don't really know how to describe just how depressing it is that what was once such a beacon of hope to Jews around the world is devolving into something that will probably soon be largely indistinguishable from the nazi regime that led to Israel's creation in the first place. And I don't know if the fact that so much of our support for Israel over its history has been due to the lunatic end-times beliefs of American evangelicals (in which all Jewish people die and go to hell) could really make it worse, but it feels like it does. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

50 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Some assholes just love to fight and to kill and will drag millions along with them.  

This pretty much sums up the human condition

Edited October 9, 2023 by Neonmoon

[Guest]

2 hours ago, hayden_horn said:

what about olive oil smart guy?

That power your big truck with tow package we are all driving to office?  I don’t think so. 

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

That would be such a powerful point if our involvement with Israel were the only thing we'd ever had going in the MidEast. Salient even.

Use google. Start with Iran and Mossadegh. Maybe track our relationship with Saddam over the years. Israel is a central complication not the only complication. We've even had a couple wars over there that didn't involve Israel. All kinds of interesting shit.

Or, you can stick to the narrow road. I leave it to you.

Well I mean you’re objecting specifically to our movement of men / equipment to help out Israel in this war. Perhaps save your complaint, which I haven’t even opined on, for a thread not titled ‘Israel’ and not in the direct aftermath of Israeli slaughter. 

[Ted Lange 15991]

 

 

[Smax 3799]

30 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I wonder if she realizes how Hamas would treat her. Pornstar, moved to the west, only wears a Hijab when sucking off someone. 

 

she had a fatwa declared on her, they want her dead

[Ted Lange 15991]

[G650 13990]

38 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I'd started typing a Brisket-length post, but it ended up just being that same post in a few thousand more words. I think the real problem, and the reason this conflict will either (a) never end, or (b) "end" in an Israeli genocide of the Palestinians, is that the Israeli state (at least as run by its right-wing governments) is a settler-colonial state and the answer to resolving violence between colonizers and colonized is usually for the colonizers to go home.  But the Israeli people have nowhere else to go either. Hell, we (the "we" in this case being pretty much the rest of the world) gave them Israel because some Zionists wanted it and nobody else wanted to take a bunch of Jews in.  

I used to believe a pluralistic Israel was possible. Maybe at one point it really was. But that doesn't seem possible anymore. And while plenty of blame for that can be laid at the hands of Hamas and Hezbollah, I think it primarily lies with the far-right in Israel.  Just as nothing could possibly justify what Hamas has done, nothing could possibly justify the Israeli government's brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.  I don't really know how to describe just how depressing it is that what was once such a beacon of hope to Jews around the world is devolving into something that will probably soon be largely indistinguishable from the nazi regime that led to Israel's creation in the first place. And I don't know if the fact that so much of our support for Israel over its history has been due to the lunatic end-times beliefs of American evangelicals (in which all Jewish people die and go to hell) could really make it worse, but it feels like it does. 

Sadly true.

[wildcat09 29187]

50 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Mia Khalifa enters the chat: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12610939/mia-khalifa-tweet-israel.html

She's only 30?!?!

In solidarity with decent people everywhere, I will be boycotting her work. 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

This is an exceptional post.

Not a bad post and certainly empathetic. I just disagree. Two state solution could work with a modicum of buy-in from Palestinians. They’re not interested in peace. They’re either too dumb to not listen to, or vote their leaders out, or they’re simply not interested. 

So, I tend to side with Israel on these matters, and will here. I 100% understand why they maintain what the naive among us call an “apartheid state”, which is totally different than what was employed in South Africa that it sounds ignorant.  Israel is justified in flattening Gaza and expelling all of them. 

[Bullneck 18976]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

There's more than a touch of anti Semitism involved with the actual founding of Israel.

 

But, if you will it, it is no dream.

 

[DDD Dad 14167]

29 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

That power your big truck with tow package we are all driving to office?  I don’t think so. 

Counterpoint:

[MNLonghornFUKM 8799]

Fuck em.

[bolverk 29360]

Lots of talk about potential genocide by Israel on the non-political thread. I don't feel comfortable discussing many of my opinions over there because that would be out of bounds.

Nothing -- AT ALL -- justifies what Hamas did on Saturday. Let me repeat: NOTHING. I'll also add that Israel has every single right to protect its citizens and internationally recognized territory. If that means invading Gaza to take out their leadership, so be it.

However, I'm also generally supportive of the Palestinians having a right to self-determination in their own homeland, which Israel has denied. Yes, Hamas denies Israel's right to exist, but they're not representative of all Palestinians and they don't have the power to eliminate Israel as a country. Also, yes, there are some in Israel's current leadership who deny Palestine's right to exist, but they do have that power and are wielding it.

Here's an article that appeared in Foreign Policy magazine just a few short months ago (feel free to click the link to the non-paywalled version if you'd like to follow links within it):

Quote

 

Israel Is Officially Annexing the West Bank
A quiet bureaucratic maneuver by Netanyahu’s government has begun transferring control over the occupied territory from military to civilian leadership—violating international law.
By Michael Sfard, an Israeli lawyer specializing in international human rights law and international humanitarian law.

JUNE 8, 2023, 9:55 AM
On Nov. 22, 1967, the United Nations Security Council debated a resolution that would become the international community’s most important directive about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict since the 1947 partition plan for Palestine. The discussion concerned the outcome of the 1967 war, during which Israel had triumphed over its Arab neighbors to capture the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, and Golan Heights from Syria.

At the Security Council, Israel’s then-Foreign Minister Abba Eban said, “We shall respect and fully maintain the situation embodied in the cease-fire agreements until it is succeeded by peace treaties between Israel and the Arab States ending the state of war.” Eban wasn’t being entirely accurate: When he made his statement, Israel had already unilaterally applied its law over East Jerusalem; it would do the same 15 years later by formally annexing the Golan Heights. And, over the past half-century, settlement expansion into the West Bank would deepen Israeli control and make a military withdrawal look increasingly unlikely. (Israel returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt as part of a 1979 peace treaty.)

Still, nebulous diplomatic verbiage aside, Eban’s speech would define Israel’s official position on the West Bank for the 50 years to come: The final status of the occupied territory was to be determined in mediated talks. That is, until a few years ago—when Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu started openly pushing a policy of unilateral annexation. A recent bureaucratic maneuver within his new far-right government all but made annexation official by beginning the process of transferring many powers overseeing the West Bank from military to civilian leaders—in contravention of international law.

From the very beginning, Israel has sought to perpetuate its unilateral sovereignty in the West Bank. For decades, as successive Israeli governments sweet-talked the world about the occupied territory’s future status being resolved through negotiations, the country’s actions on the ground told a very different story.

Under international law, an occupying state is considered a temporary administrator—rather than a sovereign—of the territory it occupies. This means it is obligated to preserve the territory’s pre-seizure state as much as possible. But in the West Bank, Israel has done the opposite—acting as sovereign by harnessing the territory’s land and resources in the service of a colossal colonization project, mostly in the form of Israeli settlements.

Since 1967, Israel has built more than 130 settlements (and helped build about 140 settler outposts) in the West Bank; today, 700,000 Israeli settlers live in the territory, about 230,000 of them in East Jerusalem, according to Peace Now, an Israeli nongovernmental organization where I serve as legal advisor. Israeli settlers, who have full civil and political rights and are seamlessly connected to Israel’s infrastructure and resources, reside alongside millions of Palestinians subject to Israeli military rule who have zero say over how they are governed. Numerous leading Israeli and international nongovernmental organizations have likened this bifurcated system to apartheid. (I authored the first report from such an Israeli group—Yesh Din—in 2020.)

The international laws of war, as well as the statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), consider the transfer of an occupying state’s civilian population into the occupied territory to be a war crime. Together with the prohibition on forced transfers within a territory and deportations outside a territory of occupied people—Russian President Vladimir Putin has been indicted for the latter by the ICC—this prohibition is designed to ensure that the occupying power does not demographically engineer the occupied territory. But Israel has clearly done so, and is now planning to escalate through further settlement expansion.

Still, words and statements carry special importance in both international relations and international law. So despite abundant, unequivocal evidence that Israel is applying its sovereignty in the West Bank, absent an official declaration of annexation—and with the territory officially under military, rather than civilian, command—the world has not treated Israel’s actions as a violation of one of the core tenets of international law: the prohibition on unilateral annexation of territory occupied by force.

The gap between Israel’s words and actions on the West Bank began changing in 2017, when officials in Netanyahu’s then-government began discussing plans for unilateral annexation of the territory. That December, Netanyahu’s ruling Likud party passed a resolution instructing its legislators to “pursue” full annexation of the West Bank. But it was clear to those who voted in favor of the resolution that it had only declaratory status and could not be implemented immediately due to international objections.

Then, in the leadup to Israel’s 2019 elections and the emergence of then-U.S. President Donald Trump’s so-called “deal of the century”—which prescribed a partial Israeli annexation of the West Bank—Netanyahu declared in media interviews that he would promote the “gradual” application of Israeli sovereignty to the territory. Netanyahu said he discussed “annexation by consent”—U.S. consent—with the Trump administration.

Netanyahu has repeated this messaging several times since. The new government he formed last year with extremist settler parties mentions “the Jewish people’s exclusive right over the entire Land of Israel” in its manifesto. The coalition agreement between Likud and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich’s hard-line Religious Zionist Party is more specific, stating, “The prime minister will work towards the formulation and promotion of a policy whereby sovereignty is applied to the Judea and Samaria.” (Judea and Samaria are the biblical names for the areas comprising the West Bank and are typically used by the Israeli right.)

This is the background for the Netanyahu government’s recent decision to change the official governance structure of the West Bank by transferring many administrative powers from military to civilian command. Its moves should assuage any remaining doubts that Israel is in the process of fully annexing the West Bank—de jure.

In late February, Smotrich—an avowed homophobe and proponent of Jewish superiority—signed an agreement with Defense Minister Yoav Gallant to transfer a number of governmental powers in the West Bank from the territory’s military commander to Smotrich. (In addition to serving as finance minister, Smotrich is also a minister in the Defense Ministry.) The move was agreed upon in the coalition agreement between Likud and the Religious Zionist Party.

 

 

I wish Israel all the best in kicking the ever-living shit out of Hamas, but I do hope they show restraint in minimizing civilian casualties. Maybe cooler heads on both sides will prevail when the dust settles, but I don't hold out much hope for that right now and don't have a lot of solutions to offer up other than a genuine two-state one. But the Israeli government has decided to take that one off the table. I wish other Israeli supporters would recognize that fact.

 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

All in the name of the same God.

[wildcat09 29187]

6 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Not a bad post and certainly empathetic. I just disagree. Two state solution could work with a modicum of buy-in from Palestinians. They’re not interested in peace. They’re either too dumb to not listen to, or vote their leaders out, or they’re simply not interested. 

So, I tend to side with Israel on these matters, and will here. I 100% understand why they maintain what the naive among us call an “apartheid state”, which is totally different than what was employed in South Africa that it sounds ignorant.  Israel is justified in flattening Gaza and expelling all of them. 

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is apartheid by any reasonable definition of the word. You seem comfortable enough saying that you think it's fine in this case, so why does whether or not it qualifies as apartheid in your mind even matter?

[Ted Lange 15991]

When one side stars beheading people and broadcasting it, there is no chance of cooler heads prevailing.   Palestinians shouldn't have voted and supported these people.

[bolverk 29360]

8 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

Not a bad post and certainly empathetic. I just disagree. Two state solution could work with a modicum of buy-in from Palestinians. They’re not interested in peace. They’re either too dumb to not listen to, or vote their leaders out, or they’re simply not interested. 

So, I tend to side with Israel on these matters, and will here. I 100% understand why they maintain what the naive among us call an “apartheid state”, which is totally different than what was employed in South Africa that it sounds ignorant.  Israel is justified in flattening Gaza and expelling all of them. 

Read the article I just posted. Israel has been systematically colonizing the West Bank for years, which has made the two-state solution impossible.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

Israel's treatment of the Palestinian people is apartheid by any reasonable definition of the word. You seem comfortable enough saying that you think it's fine in this case, so why does whether or not it qualifies as apartheid in your mind even matter?

It’s not apartheid, or “a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.”  It’s “a sustained policy of segregation and subject to poorer living conditions, because if we don’t do that, they’ll fire katyusha rockets at us repeatedly, as they have always done”.   That’s not apartheid, Rashida. 

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, Ted Lange said:

When one side stars beheading people and broadcasting it, there is no chance of cooler heads prevailing.   Palestinians shouldn't have voted and supported these people.

The last time the PLC held elections the median Palestinian was 2 years old.

[dieucla98 2931]

2 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

It’s not apartheid, or “a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.”  It’s “a sustained policy of segregation and subject to poorer living conditions, because if we don’t do that, they’ll fire katyusha rockets at us repeatedly, as they have always done”.   That’s not apartheid, Rashida. 

This reads to me as...  We don't want them to fire rockets on us so we're going to subject them to the conditions that make them want to fire rockets on us.

That doesn't feel sustainable.

[Viking 299]

30 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

"Americans cannot impose calm"? I see Hamas is not familiar with America's modus operandi.

It's a good name for a ship though. USS Impose Calm.

[bolverk 29360]

3 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

When one side stars beheading people and broadcasting it, there is no chance of cooler heads prevailing.   Palestinians shouldn't have voted and supported these people.

I'm not optimistic. Complete destruction of Hamas, I think, would be a necessary precondition. Israel giving up any territorial claims to the West Bank would also be helpful, but I'm not optimistic on that front either. Both peoples have to feel safe and secure in their own homeland. For me, that means going back to the 1967 borders. Over time, the Palestinians might accept that, but the Israelis haven't given that a chance. And, if you read the article I posted above, it shows their leadership is bound and determined to take the whole thing.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, dieucla98 said:

This reads to me as...  We don't want them to fire rockets on us so we're going to subject them to the conditions that make them want to fire rockets on us.

That doesn't feel sustainable.

It is, we’ve watched them in ceasefires repeatedly fire rockets up our ass, so regardless of what we do, they will fire rockets up their ass. So, we’re gonna keep a very tight leash on these animals (which is exactly what they are).

It’s not sustainable. They need to be expelled. Some other Muslim country needs to take them on. It will suck in that future Fauda seasons will have much less intrigue, but it’s absolutely going to happen. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Porterhouse

[sidis 9713]

israel is faced with deciding whether it wants to buck the notion that there is no military solution to counterterrorism.  it's not that there isn't a solution...it's just that it is not palatable to most of the western world.  other parts of the world have less queasiness about it.  ask the tamil tigers in sri lanka.  but roughly 20k civilians were killed as a result.

if israel goes this route, they are going to have to be ready to go full out war because such action will result in a full engagement of iran not only through hamas but also from the north through hezbollah who has a whole bunch (between 100k-150k) of long range missiles that can overwhelm the iron dome...as well as militants in the west bank engaging.  with that type of three front situation, israel will be potentially forced into engaging iran directly in order for it to pressure iran to call off its henchmen. 

the magnitude of the civilian hostages that were seized makes the calculus much more complex in the near term.  if third party back channels don't do a lot of work to get some resolution on this and finding some fall guy trophies, this is going to get even nastier.  the u.s., gulf state, and iran unofficial lines of communication need to get something done.

[bolverk 29360]

6 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

It is, we’ve watched them in ceasefires repeatedly fire rockets up our ass, so regardless of what we do, they will fire rockets up their ass. So, we’re gonna keep a very tight leash on these animals (which is exactly what they are).

It’s not sustainable. They need to be expelled. Some other Muslim country needs to take them on. It will suck in that future Fauda seasons will have much less intrigue, but it’s absolutely going to happen. 

You're advocating for Israel to commit, by legal definition war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing with this statement.

[hobbes2702 12771]

19 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

It’s not apartheid, or “a policy or system of segregation or discrimination on grounds of race.”  It’s “a sustained policy of segregation and subject to poorer living conditions, because if we don’t do that, they’ll fire katyusha rockets at us repeatedly, as they have always done”.   That’s not apartheid, Rashida. 

This is just flat wrong

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, sidis said:

israel is faced with deciding whether it wants to buck the notion that there is no military solution to counterterrorism.  it's not that there isn't a solution...it's just that it is not palatable to most of the western world.  other parts of the world have less queasiness about it.  ask the tamil tigers in sri lanka.  but roughly 20k civilians were killed as a result.

if israel goes this route, they are going to have to be ready to go full out war because such action will result in a full engagement of iran not only through hamas but also from the north through hezbollah who has a whole bunch (between 100k-150k) of long range missiles that can overwhelm the iron dome...as well as militants in the west bank engaging.  with that type of three front situation, israel will be potentially forced into engaging iran directly in order for it to pressure iran to call off its henchmen. 

the magnitude of the civilian hostages that were seized makes the calculus much more complex in the near term.  if third party back channels don't do a lot of work to get some resolution on this and finding some fall guy trophies, this is going to get even nastier.  the u.s., gulf state, and iran unofficial lines of communication need to get something done.

This isn’t really a decision. Expel all Palestinians. Fight any resulting wars. Everyone will be better off. Israel will face backlash, but it will anyway. If Palestinians will not leave and force must be employed, use that force. If they shield themselves with Palestinian citizenry, kill them too. The issue with Israel is its had relative peace much of the last 15 years. It’s been lulled to sleep. It has been TOO lenient and nice. 

[David Dennison 18608]

9 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

It is, we’ve watched them in ceasefires repeatedly fire rockets up our ass, so regardless of what we do, they will fire rockets up their ass. So, we’re gonna keep a very tight leash on these animals (which is exactly what they are).

It’s not sustainable. They need to be expelled. Some other Muslim country needs to take them on. It will suck in that future Fauda seasons will have much less intrigue, but it’s absolutely going to happen. 

Who is they?

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Besides SA making a statement that blames Israel, has there been anything else from them? They obviously have supported Hamas before, but as it has been mentioned, they are at odds with Iran.

A few years back I worked for a Saudi owned company and one reason I left is I didn’t like the idea of working for those fuckers (how women, Jews, etc are treated). And again, I find myself working with them (not for them) and I still don’t much like the idea.

[hobbes2702 12771]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Who is they?

He is clearly referring to all Palestinians. It’s gross