Israel

[Longhorn_Fan68 34108]

25 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

All in the name of the same God.

which is to say they're literally fighting over and for nothing.

[David Dennison 19569]

4 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

This isn’t really a decision. Expel all Palestinians. Fight any resulting wars. Everyone will be better off. Israel will face backlash, but it will anyway. If Palestinians will not leave and force must be employed, use that force. If they shield themselves with Palestinian citizenry, kill them too. The issue with Israel is its had relative peace much of the last 15 years. It’s been lulled to sleep. It has been TOO lenient and nice. 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

which is to say they're literally fighting over and for nothing.

Correct. I cannot reconcile how foolish it all is. But I am obviously a non religious person.

[sidis 10019]

4 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Besides SA making a statement that blames Israel, has there been anything else from them? They obviously have supported Hamas before, but as it has been mentioned, they are at odds with Iran.

A few years back I worked for a Saudi owned company and one reason I left is I didn’t like the idea of working for those fuckers (how women, Jews, etc are treated). And again, I find myself working with them (not for them) and I still don’t much like the idea.

saudi arabia officially severed relations with hamas in 2007 and has not been friendly since.  s.a. largely sees them as an arm of iran and the muslim brotherhood which they treat adversarial.  that said, hamas has been making an effort to thaw relations with them for the last few months and they are both "sunni."

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

saudi arabia officially severed relations with hamas in 2007 and has not been friendly since.  s.a. largely sees them as an arm of iran and the muslim brotherhood which they treat adversarial.  that said, hamas has been making an effort to thaw relations with them for the last few months and they are both "sunni."

Thanks. I didn’t know there was a split with SA.

Still doesn’t change how I feel in general because of the female thing. Although, it seems in the tiniest of shifts SA is changing.



So where are we with Russia in all of this? There is a ton of chatter out there but I assume 90% of is disinformation.

[G650 14451]

4 minutes ago, sidis said:

 that said, hamas has been making an effort to thaw relations with them for the last few months

[bernorange 8386]

8 minutes ago, sidis said:

... s.a. largely sees them as an arm of iran and the muslim brotherhood which they treat adversarial. ...

Back in April, Iran and Saudi Arabia started making overtures to each other (as a condition for being invited to the BRICS table).  I wonder how this issue will affect relations between them.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/04/06/china/saudi-arabia-iran-china-beijing-diplomatic-relations-intl-hnk/index.html

Edited October 9, 2023 by bernorange

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

The irony here is that @Porterhouse has a Come and Take It flag waving at his house right now.

[wildcat09 29600]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

The irony here is that @Porterhouse has a Come and Take It flag waving at his house right now.

Porterhouse is a pretty clear demonstration of the effectiveness of fascist propaganda.

['stache 22146]

Hamas is a terrorist organization and of course should not be committing atrocities. But the reflexive "We Stand with Israel" from every western power is also infuriating. Israel was forced upon a land that was already occupied. There was zero chance you could just displace people and expect them to say "okay, welcome y'all!," especially when religion is the major beef. Israel has repeatedly treated Palestinians as a nuisance to be dealt with, not as neighbors. They have committed atrocities as well, and nonchalantly expand their settlements claiming they have the right to the entire region. It's no wonder that some factions of the side that is overwhelmingly oppressed turn to desperate acts of terrorisms. Doesn't make it right, but categorizing the Palestinian side and wrong and Israel as right is just stupid oversimplification. There is no answer here as far as I can tell so long as the west overwhelmingly supports Israel. What compromise would work for the oppressed side when all proposals have them subordinated?

Edited October 9, 2023 by 'stache

[Satchel 6983]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Porterhouse is a pretty clear demonstration of the effectiveness of fascist propaganda.

That anybody could characterize Bibi’s apartheid government as too lenient and nice is crazy.

['stache 22146]

Some (not all) of this speaks to me, from Dallas Goldtooth, the guy who plays William Knifeman in Rez Dogs. 

Edited October 9, 2023 by 'stache

[Neonmoon 38130]

What would a Free Palestine look like? If Hamas didn’t have a say, how would the majority of Palestinians create a Free Palestine? End the blockade, and territory lines back to?

[MNLonghornFUKM 8985]

Some (not all) of this speaks to me, from Dallas Goldtooth, the guy who plays William Knifeman in Rez Dogs. 

Yea they sure like to dance!

[David Dennison 19569]

12 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What would a Free Palestine look like? If Hamas didn’t have a say, how would the majority of Palestinians create a Free Palestine? End the blockade, and territory lines back to?

Would Israel ever recognize a Palestinian state?

[InkaUtexas 26963]

12 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What would a Free Palestine look like? If Hamas didn’t have a say, how would the majority of Palestinians create a Free Palestine? End the blockade, and territory lines back to?

Not sure about the borders, the illegal settlements really mess that up. 

But there are a few things that could be done. A few quick ideas that have been floated in the past. 

1- Make Jerusalem a UN protected free city. Not a great solution, but would remove the IDF from patrolling sensitive places. 

2- Massive economic development plan for both the West Bank and Gaza. This could be led by the Arab nations. 

3- Rebuild the social services in Gaza and West Bank. International Red Crescent can lead. 

4-  Give Egypt a protectorship over Gaza for 20 years to focus on government development (civil servants, etc). Jordan does the same for the West Bank. 

There are solutions. But will the hardliners on both sides, including their international proxies ever allow this? 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You're advocating for Israel to commit, by legal definition war crimes, crimes against humanity, and ethnic cleansing with this statement.

I’m not. Their country has been attacked. When Fatah was jettisoned for Hamas, the populace at that moment made their bed. If Israel cannot extract and expel Hamas effectively, then expel them all. That you label it war crimes is irrelevant to me after what the Palestinian leadership (not a rogue terrorist element) just pulled. 

52 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

This is just flat wrong

It’s not. Tell me how many black South Africans were committing terrorist acts when segregated. Comparing Israel’s governance to apartheid is ridiculous. 

51 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Who is they?

Mostly Hamas, but I doubt they’ll be successful in only eliminating leadership and not creating future terrorists. If they are, somewhat miraculously, then absolutely they should let go of their leash. 

46 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Yes, everyone. Very heavy handed and scorched earth if needed is a tactic that generally always works after a generation. This isn’t going to be easy, but nothing for Israel ever is. 

43 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

Correct. I cannot reconcile how foolish it all is. But I am obviously a non religious person.

Forget the religious aspect of it. Jews were displaced over the centuries, and then further displaced from their diaspora countless times over history. Forget entirely the religious aspect of it. Consider they now have the smallest sliver of land in a wide region that is their ancestral homeland and they’ve been kicked out of pretty much every other country they’ve migrated to (as recently as 80 years ago) with the exception of far Western Euro and the Americas. They absolutely are not fighting over nothing.

32 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

The irony here is that @Porterhouse has a Come and Take It flag waving at his house right now.

I absolutely do not. 

3 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What would a Free Palestine look like? If Hamas didn’t have a say, how would the majority of Palestinians create a Free Palestine? End the blockade, and territory lines back to?

This would be ideal but the Palestinian leadership has never been smart. The smartest ones left.  I doubt the remaining leadership or people is smart enough to not be infiltrated by Israel-hating manipulators. 

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Would Israel ever recognize a Palestinian state?

If I were Bibi I would absolutely do so if theyd recognize Israel and stop firing rockets at them. 

[Evil Bill Obrien 3522]

10 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What would a Free Palestine look like? If Hamas didn’t have a say, how would the majority of Palestinians create a Free Palestine? End the blockade, and territory lines back to?

 

For real tho prob about the same as it does today, but as it stands do not see any path forward on a 2 state solution. The only things I can think of that may remotely bring that about is another Arab spring in Iran to get rid of the current regime and replace it, and peak oil finally becoming a reality to Saudi and both of those countries realizing they prob need to settle their shit and move on with actually creating meaningful peace and prosperity in the middle east and not just trying to kill each other and wipe Israel off the map. Unless that happens will just keep going thru the same cycle over and over again.

And its been said a couple times today on this thread but its absolutely baffling that everyone involved has decided for thousands of years that the Levant is a place worth all this trouble fighting over...

[David Dennison 19569]

Just now, Porterhouse said:

If I were Bibi I would absolutely do so if theyd recognize Israel and stop firing rockets at them. 

Maybe they'd stop firing rockets if Israel stopped killing Palestinians.

[Longhorn_Fan68 34108]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Would Israel ever recognize a Palestinian state?

they will if the US tells them to.

[hobbes2702 13509]

3 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I’m not. Their country has been attacked. When Fatah was jettisoned for Hamas, the populace at that moment made their bed. If Israel cannot extract and expel Hamas effectively, then expel them all. That you label it war crimes is irrelevant to me after what the Palestinian leadership (not a rogue terrorist element) just pulled. 

It’s not. Tell me how many black South Africans were committing terrorist acts when segregated. Comparing Israel’s governance to apartheid is ridiculous. 

Mostly Hamas, but I doubt they’ll be successful in only eliminating leadership and not creating future terrorists. If they are, somewhat miraculously, then absolutely they should let go of their leash. 

Yes, everyone. Very heavy handed and scorched earth if needed is a tactic that generally always works after a generation. This isn’t going to be easy, but nothing for Israel ever is. 

Forget the religious aspect of it. Jews were displaced over the centuries, and then further displaced from their diaspora countless times over history. Forget entirely the religious aspect of it. Consider they now have the smallest sliver of land in a wide region that is their ancestral homeland and they’ve been kicked out of pretty much every other country they’ve migrated to (as recently as 80 years ago) with the exception of far Western Euro and the Americas. They absolutely are not fighting over nothing.

I absolutely do not. 

This would be ideal but the Palestinian leadership has never been smart. The smartest ones left.  I doubt the remaining leadership or people is smart enough to not be infiltrated by Israel-hating manipulators. 

Yea you can fuck right off. 
 

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Porterhouse, you make a compelling argument to return massive swaths of the US (and the resources) back to the native Americans.

[Guest]

Just now, David Dennison said:

Maybe they'd stop firing rockets if Israel stopped killing Palestinians.

I just can’t believe that’s how anyone would look at the current developments and distill it down to this. This is an insane distortion of the facts who should bear culpability. 

[InkaUtexas 26963]

4 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

they will if the US tells them to.

We kind of did in Olso. 

[David Dennison 19569]

Just now, Porterhouse said:

I just can’t believe that’s how anyone would look at the current developments and distill it down to this. This is an insane distortion of the facts who should bear culpability. 

It would be wise to remember how Israel came to exist as a modern nation-state in the first place. 

[Ted Lange 16441]

 

 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

You make a compelling argument to return massive swaths of the US (and the resources) back to the native Americans.

It’s a good argument. There’re a lot of key differentiators an similarities. One similarity is we decisively beat native Americans (as did the Spanish and to a lesser extent Portuguese). Just as the Israelis would decisively destroy just about anyone in their sphere and have done since ‘48. Another similarity is early frontier Americans had to deal with this type of terrorism, but I’d argue native Americans probably had a more noble cause. A key differentiator is this has been their homeland for 7,000 years, it’s been stripped from them the majority of the last 2,000, and they’ve been kicked out of most other homelands, eventually, over that 2,000 year span. So yeah, I see the argument. 

[wildcat09 29600]

10 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

they will if the US tells them to.

No, they won't. That tail has been wagging this dog for quite awhile now.

[David Dennison 19569]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

It’s a good argument. There’re a lot of key differentiators an similarities. One similarity is we decisively beat native Americans (as did the Spanish and to a lesser extent Portuguese). Just as the Israelis would decisively destroy just about anyone in their sphere and have done since ‘48. Another similarity is early frontier Americans had to deal with this type of terrorism, but I’d argue native Americans probably had a more noble cause. A key differentiator is this has been their homeland for 7,000 years, it’s been stripped from them the majority of the last 2,000, and they’ve been kicked out of most other homelands, eventually, over that 2,000 year span. So yeah, I see the argument. 

Not just their homeland.

[elfenix 34780]

Truman could have waited another week before dropping that second bomb.

The air force dropped the second bomb without explicit orders.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

It’s a good argument. There’re a lot of key differentiators an similarities. One similarity is we decisively beat native Americans (as did the Spanish and to a lesser extent Portuguese). Just as the Israelis would decisively destroy just about anyone in their sphere and have done since ‘48. Another similarity is early frontier Americans had to deal with this type of terrorism, but I’d argue native Americans probably had a more noble cause. A key differentiator is this has been their homeland for 7,000 years, it’s been stripped from them the majority of the last 2,000, and they’ve been kicked out of most other homelands, eventually, over that 2,000 year span. So yeah, I see the argument. 

So you are saying might is right? If I am misunderstanding, my apologies.

I don’t see much difference using your logic. By most accounts the native Americans have been here for over 15,000 years and have been murdered or marginalized for the past 500 or so. As recently as the last century, native women were being sterilized. Sounds like terrorism to me. So you would be ok with returning land and resources to them? And I’m not taking a stance about Israel here, I’m just trying to understand your logic and if it tracks in other places such as the US.

[Neonmoon 38130]

I’m not arguing it’s morally right, but is there a nation that hasn’t spilled the blood of innocents to establish or maintain its borders?

[bolverk 30375]

20 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I’m not. Their country has been attacked. When Fatah was jettisoned for Hamas, the populace at that moment made their bed. If Israel cannot extract and expel Hamas effectively, then expel them all. That you label it war crimes is irrelevant to me after what the Palestinian leadership (not a rogue terrorist element) just pulled. 

War crimes and crimes against humanity have specific definitions under international law. Ethnic cleansing is a little murky. But you are advocating the forcible expulsion of a people from their own land. 

Definition
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Article 8
War Crimes

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

1. The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
2. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:

a. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

vii. Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;

b. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

viii. The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

 

Definition
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Article 7
Crimes Against Humanity

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml

1. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

d. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

 

Ethnic Cleansing

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

[TexArcher 39077]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

Hamas is a terrorist organization and of course should not be committing atrocities. But the reflexive "We Stand with Israel" from every western power is also infuriating. Israel was forced upon a land that was already occupied. There was zero chance you could just displace people and expect them to say "okay, welcome y'all!," especially when religion is the major beef. Israel has repeatedly treated Palestinians as a nuisance to be dealt with, not as neighbors. They have committed atrocities as well, and nonchalantly expand their settlements claiming they have the right to the entire region. It's no wonder that some factions of the side that is overwhelmingly oppressed turn to desperate acts of terrorisms. Doesn't make it right, but categorizing the Palestinian side and wrong and Israel as right is just stupid oversimplification. There is no answer here as far as I can tell so long as the west overwhelmingly supports Israel. What compromise would work for the oppressed side when all proposals have them subordinated?

May I recommend that you don't head over to the Daily Texan thread with this measured and reasonable take?

It won't go well.  I'm surprised I got out of there without getting myself banninated.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

May I recommend that you don't head over to the Daily Texan thread with this measured and reasonable take?
It won't go well.  I'm surprised I got out of there without getting myself banninated.

But the drunk deacon is over there splainin history everyone. And doing it with quite the racist undertones. Which is shocking.

[Dnaguy 12723]

1 hour ago, Porterhouse said:

This isn’t really a decision. Expel all Palestinians. Fight any resulting wars. Everyone will be better off. Israel will face backlash, but it will anyway. If Palestinians will not leave and force must be employed, use that force. If they shield themselves with Palestinian citizenry, kill them too. The issue with Israel is its had relative peace much of the last 15 years. It’s been lulled to sleep. It has been TOO lenient and nice. 

that’s ethnic cleansing , brotha and a war crime.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Dnaguy

[sidis 10019]

43 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I just can’t believe that’s how anyone would look at the current developments and distill it down to this. This is an insane distortion of the facts who should bear culpability. 

i think this line appropriately applies to anyone trying to distill anything related to israel and palestine to anything simple and one-sided.  just a reminder...

 

[chainsaw 10308]

Quote

Flatten Gaza

Cool Motive. Still A War Crime.

[Hagbard Celine 11293]

1 hour ago, 'stache said:

What compromise would work for the oppressed side when all proposals have them subordinated?

Oslo

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, Patricio Swayze said:

So you are saying might is right? If I am misunderstanding, my apologies.

I don’t see much difference using your logic. By most accounts the native Americans have been here for over 15,000 years and have been murdered or marginalized for the past 500 or so. As recently as the last century, native women were being sterilized. Sounds like terrorism to me. So you would be ok with returning land and resources to them? And I’m not taking a stance about Israel here, I’m just trying to understand your logic and if it tracks in other places such as the US.

Confused about your might is right question. I’m not making a judgement about that, but saying that to the victor go the spoils. It is what it is, and no I’m not going to be an advocate of giving the Americas back. The Arabs have constantly been fucking with the Jews since WWII for their little sliver of Israel, have constantly been getting trounced and losing lands in the process, and continue to fuck with them every day through today. Jews would be happy to live side by side with peaceful Arabs that continually demonstrate they’re not willing to be peaceful. Your question has made me think, but it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Overall, I’d say native Americans that lasted have a much stronger case for larger swaths of land than Palestinians. 

[UpperWestside 6285]

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

The irony here is that @Porterhouse has a Come and Take It flag waving at his house right now.

Would somebody please go and take it or at least shut off the wi-fi there.

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Confused about your might is right question. I’m not making a judgement about that, but saying that to the victor go the spoils. It is what it is, and no I’m not going to be an advocate of giving the Americas back. The Arabs have constantly been fucking with the Jews since WWII for their little sliver of Israel, have constantly been getting trounced and losing lands in the process, and continue to fuck with them every day through today. Jews would be happy to live side by side with peaceful Arabs that continually demonstrate they’re not willing to be peaceful. Your question has made me think, but it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Overall, I’d say native Americans that lasted have a much stronger case for larger swaths of land than Palestinians. 

Thanks for answering.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, bolverk said:

War crimes and crimes against humanity have specific definitions under international law. Ethnic cleansing is a little murky. But you are advocating the forcible expulsion of a people from their own land. 

Definition
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Article 8
War Crimes

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/war-crimes.shtml

1. The Court shall have jurisdiction in respect of war crimes in particular when committed as part of a plan or policy or as part of a large-scale commission of such crimes.
2. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘war crimes’ means:

a. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, namely, any of the following acts against persons or property protected under the provisions of the relevant Geneva Convention:

vii. Unlawful deportation or transfer or unlawful confinement;

b. Other serious violations of the laws and customs applicable in international armed conflict, within the established framework of international law, namely, any of the following acts:

viii. The transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory;

 

Definition
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
Article 7
Crimes Against Humanity

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/crimes-against-humanity.shtml

1. For the purpose of this Statute, ‘crime against humanity’ means any of the following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:

d. Deportation or forcible transfer of population;

 

Ethnic Cleansing

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/ethnic-cleansing.shtml

As ethnic cleansing has not been recognized as an independent crime under international law, there is no precise definition of this concept or the exact acts to be qualified as ethnic cleansing. A United Nations Commission of Experts mandated to look into violations of international humanitarian law committed in the territory of the former Yugoslavia defined ethnic cleansing in its interim report S/25274 as "… rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove persons of given groups from the area." In its final report S/1994/674, the same Commission described ethnic cleansing as “… a purposeful policy designed by one ethnic or religious group to remove by violent and terror-inspiring means the civilian population of another ethnic or religious group from certain geographic areas.”

I never advocated ethnic cleansing, but I’d be fine with their forcible removal if they can’t live side by side with Israel without trying to kill them. The rest is just semantics. 

[Guest]

I'm just thankful I've never started a sentence with "I never advocated ethnic cleansing, but..."

Doesn't seem like it would end well.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Dnaguy said:

that’s ethnic cleansing , brotha and a war crime.

No. It’s rooting out Hamas. If Hamas employs tactics they regularly employ, that’s THEIR war crime that is on top of the very overt, direct war crimes committed against the Israelis just a few days ago. IDF has a job to do now, and if during their very just rooting out process, there’s collateral damage, that’s on Hamas, and the casualties had the misfortune of being born to a terrible people. 

[chainsaw 10308]

1 minute ago, Porterhouse said:

No. It’s rooting out Hamas. If Hamas employs tactics they regularly employ, that’s THEIR war crime that is on top of the very overt, direct war crimes committed against the Israelis just a few days ago. IDF has a job to do now, and if during their very just rooting out process, there’s collateral damage, that’s on Hamas, and the casualties had the misfortune of being born to a terrible people. 

That's not how it works.

[Biff Tannen 46203]

57 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

One similarity is we decisively beat native Americans

Beat.  Exterminated.  Same same.

[TexArcher 39077]

7 minutes ago, Porterhouse said:

I never advocated ethnic cleansing, but I’d be fine with their forcible removal if they can’t live side by side with Israel without trying to kill them. The rest is just semantics. 

Um, forcibly moving an entire ethnic group somewhere else is ethnic cleansing, isn't it?

[RomaVicta 30635]

3 hours ago, Porterhouse said:

Well I mean you’re objecting specifically to our movement of men / equipment to help out Israel in this war. Perhaps save your complaint, which I haven’t even opined on, for a thread not titled ‘Israel’ and not in the direct aftermath of Israeli slaughter. 

You replied to my post that said that I didn't want us embroiled in "the whole shootin' match of the MidEast."

You quoted me not the title of the thread, and you know it. Save your facile retorts for facile reasoning.

Just take the loss and move on. Or keep scrambling. I don't much care. Have a nice evening.