Israel

[Brisketexan 107042]

20 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Well, my intuition says to think back to the last peaceful state of affairs and revert to that. In terms of land, that might be those pre-1948 borders. In terms of governance and affairs that might be a type of reconstruction that wildly differs from the current oppressive occupation we saw under Netanyahu. Might even want to ensure that both sides' constitutions specify that the government and people lack the ability to elect fascists, authoritarians, or terrorists in the same way we ensured Japan's constitution forbade Japan from having a military.

I noticed the way you frame the issue, you are taking as a given the fact that Palestine cannot exist peacefully as neighbors with Israel, which I can't agree with. Although a cursory look at experience would seem to support that assumption, you have to take into account the fact that Palestine has never been given an opportunity to exist free from coercion, bloodshed, and oppression. They are barely permitted to live, and even that permission is subject to whim. While I'd never agree with expressions of hatred, I can't say I'm surprised that a generation of young men who have known nothing else might harbor something more than resentment.

If the boot hadn't been so weighing so heavily on these people's throats for 20-30 years, I am pretty confident those expressions of hatred would subside. And a willingness to live and let live would predominate. The "apocalyptic" rhetoric would lose its influence. In the end, people just want to have normalcy. They want a life where the worst thing that happened was an opposing quarterback racking up 75 yards of offense in less than a minute.

Improve people's material conditions, and you will see not just in Palestine but in Central America.

I love your hopefulness.  I really do.  And I WANT what you pose to be true with respect to Palestine.  But I do not believe it to be true.

16 minutes ago, G650 said:

We've gotten into some really hot takes on what Palestinians want now I see.

No "hot take" from me.  Their own consistent and damned near uniform words.  And not from biased sources.  Again, check out the interviews on Al Jazeera over the years.  Most of the responses actually start out with what we'd all expect: "we want good lives, with opportunity and jobs," and all the other things that come with.  But they all end up coming around to "and without the jews," or some variation thereof.  There is no desire to co-exist with an Israeli state -- at least not among anything but a fraction of the Palestinian people.

I don't WANT it to be that way.  I'm just reading and listening to what they actually say when they are asked.

8 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

OK, so no annexing the territories because that means no more Israel. 

What about recognizing a Palestinian state? Will that work?

I would love it if it would.  I think that's the ideal outcome.  But answer this question, and you have to bet everything you own on this answer (the Israelis would be betting their very lives on it): if the Palestinians are given a full state, will they a) build a future for themselves within that state, at peace, or b) use that state to launch relentless attacks on Israel, seeking the recapture of all lands they claim and driving the jews from the levant?

Come on.  You know the answer.  Stop being disingenuous.

[Brisketexan 107042]

1 minute ago, Surly Bevo said:

I have nothing to add at the moment other than reading the last four or five pages has given me some strong member berries of my mid 90s run at UT reading the Firing Line.  Thanks all.  

One of the reasons I ended up with my wife is because early in our dating life, we'd stay up late arguing about this shit even back then (late 80s-early 90s).  For the record, she was much more pro-Palestinian than she is today.  Decades of experience showing her that the Palestinians can't get past a core belief that jews must be driven from the levant entirely led her to lose a shitload of sympathy.

[Dbeasy 15613]

Brisket is summarizing superbly what I’ve been trying for pages to get the Palestinian sympathizers here to admit. But posters like Dennison won’t, which is no surprise.

Accept Israel’s right to exist in exchange for a two state solution.  That’s been on the table for a long time and the right to exist has never been delivered. The Oslo solution was flawed both ways. The sides couldn’t deliver on that.  

So what is Israel supposed to do? The pressure on both sides has continued to ratchet up and more is coming.  Palestinians were conquered. They either accept a reasonable two state solution or it gets worse. 

 

 

 

 

[chainsaw 10312]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I love your hopefulness.  I really do.  And I WANT what you pose to be true with respect to Palestine.  But I do not believe it to be true.

Is that because you think Palestinians are inherently incapable of acting not in conformity with particular traits? I would hope not, but assuming your response is a sensible "no" I'd like to know how you arrived at your conclusions that, in the absence of decades of oppression, Palestinians writ large would remain as supportive/tolerant of Hamas's methods as they currently are.

[Judge Roybeanbag 11860]

6 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Brisket is summarizing superbly what I’ve been trying for pages to get the Palestinian sympathizers here to admit. But posters like Dennison won’t, which is no surprise.

Accept Israel’s right to exist in exchange for a two state solution.  That’s been on the table for a long time and the right to exist has never been delivered. The Oslo solution was flawed both ways. The sides couldn’t deliver on that.  

So what is Israel supposed to do? The pressure on both sides has continued to ratchet up and more is coming.  Palestinians were conquered. They either accept a reasonable two state solution or it gets worse. 

 

 

 

 

I have never been an Israel supporter but I’m at the point now where I think there is no solution to this until the Palestinians are shoved into other Muslim states.  Period.  The end.  Then we can draw a line in the sand and fight each other, if that’s what the gods want.  

Edited October 9, 2023 by Judge Roybeanbag

[956 Worldwide 35602]

I think it’s relevant, when talking about colonizers and settlers, to remember that about 60 percent of Israeli Jews are descendants of ancient Middle East and North African Jewish communities that mostly don’t exist anymore.  They don’t exist because after 1948, the mostly autocratic Arab governments expelled them all as collective revenge for the founding of the state of Israel.  It’s a not-so convenient part of the history that doesn’t fit the “decolonization” discourse. Jews never disappeared from the Middle East.

[Brisketexan 107042]

Is that because you think Palestinians are inherently incapable of acting not in conformity with particular traits? I would hope not, but assuming your response is a sensible "no" I'd like to know how you arrived at your conclusions that, in the absence of decades of oppression, Palestinians writ large would remain as supportive/tolerant of Hamas's methods as they currently are.

Of course I don’t think they’re inherently incapable of thinking in a “how about we don’t drive all Jews into the sea” way. Many Palestinians can and do think in a way that would allow peaceful coexistence. But not nearly enough.

And the reality is that I see no prospects for changed minds in any future. Modern Israel was founded 75 years ago. The Palestinian hatred and quest to expel all Jews has continued unabated. There’s no reason to suspect that anything could change that, other than actually accomplishing the goal of driving all Jews into the sea.

[CooterBrown 18289]

This feels like a Super Bowl where I truly don’t know who to root for.

Like every Super Bowl, I don’t really care. The best outcome is probably that they both lose.

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

But not nearly enough.

There’s no reason to suspect that anything could change that, other than actually accomplishing the goal of driving all Jews into the sea.

This is what I'm asking about; you seem convinced that a critical mass of Palestinians are immutably dedicated to genocide. I think they're very much mutable, but you can't play Calvinball with them and then blame them for saying it's a rigged game. If you treat people with fairness and dignity (even when they're Arabs) they will act accordingly.

[CTC2 2871]

I don’t profess to fully understand what’s going on over there but I don’t like Netanyahu. 
I think he’s been itching for this and I expect him to match the brutality that we have seen the past couple of days.  His authoritarian instincts have me watching to see if he grabs more power because of this. He is largely why I’m indifferent on Israel as the population keeps bringing him and his party back.  
While the inhumanity of what has transpired is disgusting, I do think Netanyahu has been poking the Palestinians in the eye for a long time. 
 

[Bullneck 19583]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This is what I'm asking about; you seem convinced that a critical mass of Palestinians are immutably dedicated to genocide. I think they're very much mutable, but you can't play Calvinball with them and then blame them for saying it's a rigged game. If you treat people with fairness and dignity (even when they're Arabs) they will act accordingly.

I think Brisket covered what your'e asking: giving the Palestinians what they want in hopes they behave and don't kill all Jews.  

I don't see anyone taking that gamble.  A few pages ago I pasted the Hamas founding principles of "let's kill the Jews." 

"Says it right here.  You get nothing. Good day, sir."

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bullneck

[G650 14453]

Just now, Bullneck said:

I think Brisket covered what your'e asking: giving the Palestinians what they want in hopes they behave and don't kill all Jews.  

I don't see anyone taking that gamble.  

I don't think it's a question of giving then what the want. It's giving them what they will accept. And the population would accept just being left alone. Unfortunately the people in charge don't want that and perpetuate a cycle of violence

[Brisketexan 107042]

This is what I'm asking about; you seem convinced that a critical mass of Palestinians are immutably dedicated to genocide. I think they're very much mutable, but you can't play Calvinball with them and then blame them for saying it's a rigged game. If you treat people with fairness and dignity (even when they're Arabs) they will act accordingly.

Not when they’re too far gone. And we can discuss the reasons for that (even acknowledging that they were pushed past the breaking point), but that is where they are. Too far gone.
I do not believe that they can be redeemed at this point in time. It’s not about what the Palestinian people inherently ARE. It’s about what they’ve become.
I do not believe they they will ever see anything as “fairness and dignity” that does not include “expel all Jews from the Levant and give the Palestinians complete victory.”
Sometimes, a people have reached a point where compromise is impossible. Every meaningful data point about the Palestinians (again, read what the regular man on the street has to say) tells us that they are at that point.
And beyond that, with those data points, knowing that the price of being wrong about your faith in the better angels of their nature is…your extermination, if you were a Jew, would you ever take that risk?

[Brisketexan 107042]

I don't think it's a question of giving then what the want. It's giving them what they will accept. And the population would accept just being left alone. Unfortunately the people in charge don't want that and perpetuate a cycle of violence

They would not accept that. Again, read what regular Palestinians have been saying for decades, almost universally.

[G650 14453]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

They would not accept that. Again, read what regular Palestinians have been saying for decades, almost universally.

I understand you believe that.

[chainsaw 10312]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I think Brisket covered what your'e asking: giving the Palestinians what they want in hopes they behave and don't kill all Jews.  

I don't see anyone taking that gamble.  A few pages ago I pasted the Hamas founding principles of "let's kill the Jews." 

"Says it right here.  You get nothing. Good day, sir."

No I'm familiar with that charter, which was written by some religious zealots who were pissed off back in the 1980s. I hope we aren't still holding Mein Kampf against the Germans, either.

[DixonHur 11971]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

No I'm familiar with that charter, which was written by some religious zealots who were pissed off back in the 1980s. I hope we aren't still holding Mein Kampf against the Germans, either.

If the Nazis were still in control of Germany we would.  

[Bullneck 19583]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

No I'm familiar with that charter, which was written by some religious zealots who were pissed off back in the 1980s. I hope we aren't still holding Mein Kampf against the Germans, either.

I think Germans disavow Mien Kampf and Hitler.  

Do you think Hamas does the same with their charter?

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, Bullneck said:

I think Germans disavow Mien Kampf and Hitler.  

Do you think Hamas does the same with their charter?

I'm not advocating for Hamas. I even said a solution could be a form a reconstruction under which the constitution prohibits terror groups from being in government. The people of Palestine overwhelmingly support peace and in a truly free election, with viable alternatives, they would reject Hamas.

[UpperWestside 6285]

1 hour ago, G650 said:

We've gotten into some really hot takes on what Palestinians want now I see.

Well you see we have a lot of guys who are experts in everything. If they don’t let you know their expert opinion how can you know what the right thing to do is? 

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

Does anyone believe for a second that if the Palestinians had a state that they'd stop launching rockets into Israel?  Is anyone here that naive?

 

[bolverk 30376]

15 minutes ago, Dbeasy said:

Brisket is summarizing superbly what I’ve been trying for pages to get the Palestinian sympathizers here to admit. But posters like Dennison won’t, which is no surprise.

Accept Israel’s right to exist in exchange for a two state solution.  That’s been on the table for a long time and the right to exist has never been delivered. The Oslo solution was flawed both ways. The sides couldn’t deliver on that.  

So what is Israel supposed to do? The pressure on both sides has continued to ratchet up and more is coming.  Palestinians were conquered. They either accept a reasonable two state solution or it gets worse. 

You conveniently keep ignoring that, as part of the Oslo Accords, the PLO *did* recognize the right of Israel to exist. In return, Israel only gave the Palestinian Authority very limited administrative power over small enclaves. Continued talks broke down over the right of return, the finalization of the borders (including East Jerusalem), and the continued expansion of Israeli settlements. (As an aside, if Israelis were so worried about their security in a small country, why do they continually keep moving *closer* to Palestinians?)

Everything went to complete shit when accused war criminal Ariel Sharon, had to make a big show out of visiting Al-Aqsa, rubbing the Palestinians' noses in it. That set off the second intifada and the loss of confidence in Fatah and joining up with Hamas.

Palestine has been recognized as an independent state by the majority of the world, including the ICC, but Israel and the West refuse to recognize them (sentiments are changing in Western Europe for sure). What are the reasons *not* to recognize Palestine? Give them a chance to run their own independent country. In the West Bank, they are an occupied people and Israeli subjects with no political voice. In Gaza, they've been under a multi-year blockade.

If Israel has a right to exist, doesn't it follow that Palestine does as well?

This would be my starting point. Both have to recognize the other as an independent entity with the right to exist. Make Jerusalem an international city, if possible. If not, Berlin Wall the damn thing. Set the borders to 1967. If the Palestinians fuck it up and can't ensure that rockets and invasions don't happen, then allow the Israelis to fuck them up in return.

Set Impose the boundaries on both the Israelis and the Palestinians and enforce them. If they can't coexist, then a pox on both their damn houses.

 

From Friday's NYTimes:

Israeli Herders Spread Across West Bank, Displacing Palestinians
Palestinian herding communities are abandoning their villages, ceding huge swaths of land to nearby Israeli settlers. Settler activists say it’s the result of their new strategy in the West Bank.

Across remote parts of the West Bank, the mountainous territory occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, Palestinian herding communities are abandoning their homes at a rate that has no recorded precedent, according to the United Nations.

Simultaneously, Israeli settlers are establishing wildcat herding outposts at close to record levels, often near Palestinian villages, according to land assessments by Kerem Navot, an independent Israeli watchdog that monitors settlement activity. The group says that at least 20 new outposts have been established since the beginning of the year, a handful of which were dismantled by the Israeli Army before being reassembled.

The result has been the accelerated expansion of an Israeli civilian presence across large and strategic tracts of the territory — more than 140 square miles, according to Kerem Navot — and the simultaneous retreat of Palestinians from the same rural areas.

The Israeli settlers’ stated intention is to chip away at wide expanses of land that the Palestinian leadership, at the advent of the Oslo peace process 30 years ago, hoped would form the territorial spine of a future Palestinian state.

“It’s not the nicest thing to evacuate a population,” said Ariel Danino, 26, an Israeli settler who lives on an outpost and helps lead efforts to build new ones. “But we’re talking about a war over the land, and this is what is done during times of war.”

The phenomenon is a relatively new approach to the Israeli settlement of the West Bank, according to settler activists, rights campaigners and Palestinian herders.

Since 1967, the Israeli state has entrenched its control of the West Bank by providing land, resources and protection to more than 130 new Israeli settlements in the territory. The majority are small towns surrounded by a fence, guarded by Israeli soldiers and considered illegal by most of the world.

But while Israel is still authorizing new homes within existing settlements, a process that has accelerated under the far-right government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the state has only built one new settlement from scratch this century.

https://archive.ph/C27qm

[UpperWestside 6285]

5 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Does anyone believe for a second that if the Palestinians had a state that they'd stop launching rockets into Israel?  Is anyone here that naive?

 

I would hope not. I fear for a whole bunch of civilians that are going to die in this war as well as the spread of a war to neighboring areas which, obviously, would not be a good thing. I think Hamas probably ceases to exist as a functioning organization though after the IDF is done with them. 

[Anastasis 23718]

Can we just stop dumping arms and military funding into the region? Is that too much to ask? Last week we were floating an arms package and fucking nuclear energy support to SA just so they would play nice with Israel. We have been funding Israel’s domestic military industry for decades. Can we just maybe consider for a second cutting all these fucks off from the MIC tit and limit our direct funding to humanitarian support? 

[bolverk 30376]

31 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

I think Brisket covered what your'e asking: giving the Palestinians what they want in hopes they behave and don't kill all Jews.  

I don't see anyone taking that gamble.  A few pages ago I pasted the Hamas founding principles of "let's kill the Jews." 

"Says it right here.  You get nothing. Good day, sir."

Yeah, and I posted a manifesto from Israeli Right Wingers that says everything from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean is theirs. It's the extremists from both sides that are fucking this up. 

[David Dennison 19571]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Toe it perfectly?  Nope.

Toe the essential elements: expel the jews from Palestine?  I don't have to believe anything.  I just have to read what they actually say they want.  Al Jazeera has done some great reporting over the years, interviewing a lot of Palestinian "man and woman on the streets" types.  Not extremists, just ordinary folks, working a variety of jobs.  Seemingly pretty normal, decent folks.  And it's a running theme in their responses: expel the jews.  This isn't a secret.  

I'm sure there are some Palestinians who do not feel that way.  I know there are.  They are the minority.

You KNOW what the outcome will be.  And how about this -- even if you didn't know it for 100% sure, if you were a jew in Israel, would you ever take the risk on the hope that "maybe what the Palestinians say they want every time they are asked isn't what they really mean?"

I take nothing away from the shit circumstances of the Palestinians.  I do not absolve Israel of its shitty treatment of them.  But it's pretty close to an undeniable conclusion: give the Palestinians control of Israel, and the jews will be expelled, if not flatly exterminated.

Then why not give Palestinians control of Gaza and the West Bank?

[tokamak 6687]

3 minutes ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Does anyone believe for a second that if the Palestinians had a state that they'd stop launching rockets into Israel?  Is anyone here that naive?

 

If an independent Palestinian state launched rockets at Israel, Israel would have every right to defend itself. How is that any different from the status quo? Is it impossible to believe that two states might be better, in the long run, than the current situation? If the Palestinians are managing their own affairs, at least there’s someone to sanction. 

Lots of smart and well meaning people have looked at this over and over again for the last 75 years and come up with the same answer every time: two states. The only other possibilities are status quo or ethnic cleansing. What does Israel gain by the status quo? What goal is being worked toward? It enrages the Palestinian population, harms Israel’s reputation internationally, and doesn’t appear to keep them safe from terrorist rockets. 

[Brisketexan 107042]

Then why not give Palestinians control of Gaza and the West Bank?

I’d very much like that outcome.
But I also believe it wouldn’t ultimately work.
What will the Palestinians do with full and complete sovereignty over land literally within east shooting distance of Israel? If you bet on “shoot,” I expect you’ll be getting paid.
It’s still probably what should happen. They’ll just be in a state of perpetual war against each other.
Kind of like they are now.

[chainsaw 10312]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’d very much like that outcome.
But I also believe it wouldn’t ultimately work.
What will the Palestinians do with full and complete sovereignty over land literally within east shooting distance of Israel? If you bet on “shoot,” I expect you’ll be getting paid.
It’s still probably what should happen. They’ll just be in a state of perpetual war against each other.
Kind of like they are now.

If Israel weren't occupying Palestine's territory and truly left Palestine the fuck alone, why would Palestine "shoot" at Israel? Give them a generation or two of non-aggression, non-provocation, and improved material conditions. They will cool off, religious zealots will be relegated to the fringes as they are (or should be) in civilized nations, and we'll be much closer to lasting peace.

Israel, who has clear military superiority here, needs to be the bigger person in this conflict and resist the temptation to respond disproportionately. They are in the driver's seat.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19346]

18 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Can we just stop dumping arms and military funding into the region? Is that too much to ask? Last week we were floating an arms package and fucking nuclear energy support to SA just so they would play nice with Israel. We have been funding Israel’s domestic military industry for decades. Can we just maybe consider for a second cutting all these fucks off from the MIC tit and limit our direct funding to humanitarian support? 

This is one of the best things you have posted here.  Agreed.  

[Patricio Swayze 17058]

Anyone have a full breakdown of nationalities taken hostage? I know of the 11 (st least) Americans and I see at least 3 Brazilians. Time to send in BOPE.

[bolverk 30376]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’d very much like that outcome.
But I also believe it wouldn’t ultimately work.
What will the Palestinians do with full and complete sovereignty over land literally within east shooting distance of Israel? If you bet on “shoot,” I expect you’ll be getting paid.
It’s still probably what should happen. They’ll just be in a state of perpetual war against each other.
Kind of like they are now.

Why do the settlers keep moving into closer proximity of the Palestinians on the West Bank if they're worried about security?

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19346]

Cross posting from the Daily Texan thread as the folks in here can discuss.  

We are very much in two wrongs don’t make a right territory.  Hamas is a terrorist organization and is doing unspeakable things.  The Israeli government has been running an apartheid state in the West Bank and has done unspeakable things.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.  Seems like a lot of folks have a hard time getting their heads around that.

People want to see the world in good and evil, but the reality is the loser here are the civilians caught in this struggle.  They are the losers.

['stache 22148]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’d very much like that outcome.
But I also believe it wouldn’t ultimately work.
What will the Palestinians do with full and complete sovereignty over land literally within east shooting distance of Israel? If you bet on “shoot,” I expect you’ll be getting paid.
It’s still probably what should happen. They’ll just be in a state of perpetual war against each other.
Kind of like they are now.

When has Israel respected Palestinian borders and acknowledged their right to exist as an independent state within those borders? They haven’t, it’s always something about the “wrong borders” or something else. Israelis have done everything to belittle the Palestinian people, including settlements that even the UN considers illegal, yet with zero repercussions. They are instead emboldened by every western power. If Palestinians had been treated as equals in the territory which was drawn, there would still be many who want to end Israel’s existence, but the terrorist factions would be far smaller. You asked earlier “what can Israel do?” That should have been asked and answered 20 or 50 years ago. As far as I can tell it’s always been that Israel can do no wrong. That can be said while also believing that Hamas should be condemned for atrocities and dismantled. The Palestinian people in general though have been shat on since at least the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That tends to cause problems down the road.

Edited October 10, 2023 by 'stache

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Cross posting from the Daily Texan thread as the folks in here can discuss.  

We are very much in two wrongs don’t make a right territory.  Hamas is a terrorist organization and is doing unspeakable things.  The Israeli government has been running an apartheid state in the West Bank and has done unspeakable things.  Both of these things can be true at the same time.  Seems like a lot of folks have a hard time getting their heads around that.

People want to see the world in good and evil, but the reality is the loser here are the civilians caught in this struggle.  They are the losers.

Both are true. The difference is that the civilians in Gaza are powerless. It's been called the world's largest open-air prison. Israel is not powerless in the situation. They can fight Hamas without brutalizing the people Hamas claims to be protecting.

[Brisketexan 107042]

If Israel weren't occupying Palestine's territory and truly left Palestine the fuck alone, why would Palestine "shoot" at Israel? Give them a generation or two of non-aggression, non-provocation, and improved material conditions. They will cool off, religious zealots will be relegated to the fringes as they are (or should be) in civilized nations, and we'll be much closer to lasting peace.
Israel, who has clear military superiority here, needs to be the bigger person in this conflict and resist the temptation to respond disproportionately. They are in the driver's seat.

It’s absolutely what should be tried. Dead serious, have to give it a shot.
But it won’t work. You are asking why they would still shoot at Israel…the problem is that you are applying a rational calculus when people are not rational actors.
Palestinians will shoot at Israel until the end of time because the Jews must die and be driven into the sea. Because.
The “rational actor” ship has sailed. Honestly, I don’t think it ever even existed. There, or anywhere else.
We’re angry apes governed by our lizard brains. Hating and killing is what we do best. It’s not what we do, it’s what we ARE.
That’s why “kill or be killed” remains the only reliable calculus for any human.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19346]

3 minutes ago, 'stache said:

When since has Israel respected Palestinian borders and acknowledged their right to exist as an independent state within those borders? They haven’t, it’s always something about the “wrong borders” or something else. Israelis have done everything to belittle the Palestinian people, including settlements that even the UN considers illegal, yet with zero repercussions. They are instead emboldened by every western power. If Palestinians had been treated as equals in the territory which was drawn, there would still be many who want to end Israel’s existence, but the terrorist factions would be far smaller. You asked earlier “what can Israel do?” That should have been asked and answered 20 or 50 years ago. As far as I can tell it’s always been that Israel can do no wrong. That can be said while also believing that Hamas should be condemned for atrocities and dismantled. The Palestinian people in general though have been shat on since at least the fall of the Ottoman Empire. That tends to cause problems down the road.

 

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Both are true. The difference is that the civilians in Gaza are powerless. It's been called the world's largest open-air prison. Israel is not powerless in the situation. They can fight Hamas without brutalizing the people Hamas claims to be protecting.

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s absolutely what should be tried. Dead serious, have to give it a shot.
But it won’t work. You are asking why they would still shoot at Israel…the problem is that you are applying a rational calculus when people are not rational actors.
Palestinians will shoot at Israel until the end of time because the Jews must die and be driven into the sea. Because.
The “rational actor” ship has sailed. Honestly, I don’t think it ever even existed. There, or anywhere else.
We’re angry apes governed by our lizard brains. Hating and killing is what we do best. It’s not what we do, it’s what we ARE.
That’s why “kill or be killed” remains the only reliable calculus for any human.

I don’t disagree with any of this.  But all of this is really hard for a lot of people to understand.  They want a good guy, and a bad guy, and in this case, both really suck.  Condemn Hamas as they have committed unspeakable atrocities, but make no mistake the Israeli government is reaping the seeds it has sown with its shittastic policies, and the real victims are the civilians that are caught in this mess.

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

Clinton brokered a deal to give them their own country in 2000 and they said no.  Arafat was more interested in the keeping the conflict going.

Both sides are at fault in this over the years but to think the Palestinians or Hamas want a two state solution that is peaceful with and recognizes Israel is naive.

[Dbeasy 15613]

40 minutes ago, bolverk said:

You conveniently keep ignoring that, as part of the Oslo Accords, the PLO *did* recognize the right of Israel to exist. In return, Israel only gave the Palestinian Authority very limited administrative power over small enclaves. Continued talks broke down over the right of return, the finalization of the borders (including East Jerusalem), and the continued expansion of Israeli settlements. (As an aside, if Israelis were so worried about their security in a small country, why do they continually keep moving *closer* to Palestinians?)

Everything went to complete shit when accused war criminal Ariel Sharon, had to make a big show out of visiting Al-Aqsa, rubbing the Palestinians' noses in it. That set off the second intifada and the loss of confidence in Fatah and joining up with Hamas.

Palestine has been recognized as an independent state by the majority of the world, including the ICC, but Israel and the West refuse to recognize them (sentiments are changing in Western Europe for sure). What are the reasons *not* to recognize Palestine? Give them a chance to run their own independent country. In the West Bank, they are an occupied people and Israeli subjects with no political voice. In Gaza, they've been under a multi-year blockade.

If Israel has a right to exist, doesn't it follow that Palestine does as well?

This would be my starting point. Both have to recognize the other as an independent entity with the right to exist. Make Jerusalem an international city, if possible. If not, Berlin Wall the damn thing. Set the borders to 1967. If the Palestinians fuck it up and can't ensure that rockets and invasions don't happen, then allow the Israelis to fuck them up in return.

Set Impose the boundaries on both the Israelis and the Palestinians and enforce them. If they can't coexist, then a pox on both their damn houses.

 

From Friday's NYTimes:

Israeli Herders Spread Across West Bank, Displacing Palestinians
Palestinian herding communities are abandoning their villages, ceding huge swaths of land to nearby Israeli settlers. Settler activists say it’s the result of their new strategy in the West Bank.

Across remote parts of the West Bank, the mountainous territory occupied by Israel since the 1967 Arab-Israeli war, Palestinian herding communities are abandoning their homes at a rate that has no recorded precedent, according to the United Nations.

Simultaneously, Israeli settlers are establishing wildcat herding outposts at close to record levels, often near Palestinian villages, according to land assessments by Kerem Navot, an independent Israeli watchdog that monitors settlement activity. The group says that at least 20 new outposts have been established since the beginning of the year, a handful of which were dismantled by the Israeli Army before being reassembled.

The result has been the accelerated expansion of an Israeli civilian presence across large and strategic tracts of the territory — more than 140 square miles, according to Kerem Navot — and the simultaneous retreat of Palestinians from the same rural areas.

The Israeli settlers’ stated intention is to chip away at wide expanses of land that the Palestinian leadership, at the advent of the Oslo peace process 30 years ago, hoped would form the territorial spine of a future Palestinian state.

“It’s not the nicest thing to evacuate a population,” said Ariel Danino, 26, an Israeli settler who lives on an outpost and helps lead efforts to build new ones. “But we’re talking about a war over the land, and this is what is done during times of war.”

The phenomenon is a relatively new approach to the Israeli settlement of the West Bank, according to settler activists, rights campaigners and Palestinian herders.

Since 1967, the Israeli state has entrenched its control of the West Bank by providing land, resources and protection to more than 130 new Israeli settlements in the territory. The majority are small towns surrounded by a fence, guarded by Israeli soldiers and considered illegal by most of the world.

But while Israel is still authorizing new homes within existing settlements, a process that has accelerated under the far-right government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, the state has only built one new settlement from scratch this century.

https://archive.ph/C27qm

I didn’t ignore it. I said both sides failed to deliver what they proposed. The PLO did not have the support behind them for the Israel existence guarantee, just as Israel didn’t deliver a true second state. Both parties failed. 

You are incorrectly extrapolating from a failed agreement what each party has earnestly offered and would offer again. I do agree with another poster that it’s way worse now because there’s a hardline government in place for both sides. 

[InkaUtexas 26980]

51 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm not advocating for Hamas. I even said a solution could be a form a reconstruction under which the constitution prohibits terror groups from being in government. The people of Palestine overwhelmingly support peace and in a truly free election, with viable alternatives, they would reject Hamas.

It has been posted here the last election results. And I posted some possible solutions to achieve it. 

Working for a US company with an educated Palestinian interpreter in Dubai. He had no problem with the US, was a cool dude and we got along. Hated Israel and the Gulf States for not supporting more. 

 

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

It’s absolutely what should be tried. Dead serious, have to give it a shot.
But it won’t work. You are asking why they would still shoot at Israel…the problem is that you are applying a rational calculus when people are not rational actors.
Palestinians will shoot at Israel until the end of time because the Jews must die and be driven into the sea. Because.
The “rational actor” ship has sailed. Honestly, I don’t think it ever even existed. There, or anywhere else.
We’re angry apes governed by our lizard brains. Hating and killing is what we do best. It’s not what we do, it’s what we ARE.
That’s why “kill or be killed” remains the only reliable calculus for any human.

Maybe we're allowing the perfect to become the enemy of the good here, and by good, I mean tolerable.

Quote

people are not rational actors.
Palestinians will shoot at Israel until the end of time because the Jews must die and be driven into the sea. Because.

This part right here is ambiguous. Yes, all people are lizard brain apes and nobody is a rational actor anywhere. I agree with you on that.

But when we delve into the territory of "Jews must die and be driven into the sea" being some kind of inevitability, it's ambiguous to me whether Palestinians are being singled out here as especially prone to violence.

I don't expect Palestine to be the perfect neighbor to Israel or to anyone else, but I do think we cannot allow the fear of an unexpected terror attack to serve as a justification for apartheid or oppression of the people of Gaza and the West Bank. There will continue to be the occasional skirmish, but the world would be much better if the side with all the power quit bullying the side with none of the power. These tactics are needlessly provocative, and very few good things happen when you provoke people with nothing left to lose.

[Brisketexan 107042]

I don’t think Palestinians are inherently “especially prone to violence.” What I think…and know…is that they have had generational genocidal hatred stoked in them like few peoples in human history. The hate-filled brainwashing to which they have been relentlessly subjected (because it serves certain interests) is incomprehensible. That Israel decided to help feed it by continuous abuse is even more insane.
I believe the Palestinian people have been so soaked and steeped in genocidal hate that there’s no room for any belief system that concludes otherwise. It just is what it is. It can’t be undone.

[InkaUtexas 26980]

Agree, and would be nice to see the Arab states, who love this back and forth (an external enemy is my ally) step up and do some real development in Palestinian areas. They really don't. Nor do they take care of the Syrians who left. Jordan carries a major brunt of this conflict and they get very little help except from the US. 

 

[Brisketexan 107042]

Agree, and would be nice to see the Arab states, who love this back and forth (an external enemy is my ally) step up and do some real development in Palestinian areas. They really don't. Nor do they take care of the Syrians who left. Jordan carries a major brunt of this conflict and they get very little help except from the US. 
 

BINGO.
If the Arab states gave any shit about the Palestinians, they’d have spent 1/10th of effort to help them that they’ve spent to rule them up against Israel.
The Palestinians have let themselves be useful idiots.

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

I don’t think Palestinians are inherently “especially prone to violence.” What I think…and know…is that they have had generational genocidal hatred stoked in them like few peoples in human history. The hate-filled brainwashing to which they have been relentlessly subjected (because it serves certain interests) is incomprehensible. That Israel decided to help feed it by continuous abuse is even more insane.
I believe the Palestinian people have been so soaked and steeped in genocidal hate that there’s no room for any belief system that concludes otherwise. It just is what it is. It can’t be undone.

I'd need to see much stronger evidence of that than what's been presented. Hate is always a learned behavior. These generations may be too far gone, but we can't condemn generations that don't even exist yet.

[Anastasis 23718]

Nobody shits on the Palestinian people more than other Arabs and the Persians.

[InkaUtexas 26980]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I'd need to see much stronger evidence of that than what's been presented. Hate is always a learned behavior. These generations may be too far gone, but we can't condemn generations that don't even exist yet.

if the cycle continues, so does the hate. @956 Worldwide alluded to this about the Balkans. They fight nasty wars every other generation without external push. They learn to hate from how they are taught history. And we do not really study it.  

[chainsaw 10312]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

if the cycle continues, so does the hate. @956 Worldwide alluded to this about the Balkans. They fight nasty wars every other generation without external push. They learn to hate from how they are taught history. And we do not really study it.  

All the more reason for Israel to be the bigger person here and embrace non-aggression. Otherwise things will never get better.

[cactusflinthead 27628]

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

[tokamak 6687]

2 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Here's why I don't like the "apartheid state" thing.

The occupied territories can certainly be analogized to an apartheid state.

But the population of Israel proper is 20% Arab Muslims.   They are not broadly persecuted, they have political parties that get people elected to the Knesset appointed as Cabinet officials, and more or less participate in every aspect of israeli society.  And this despite some factions openly advocating for the eradication of  Israel.

Is that true? Not being facetious. I know that the Arab parties are treated as if radioactive by the Israeli right wing.