Israel

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

All the more reason for Israel to be the bigger person here and embrace non-aggression. Otherwise things will never get better.

They kind of have. They grew food. Go back and look at the hand over of Gaza to the PA. First thing destroyed, farms. 

At first most Israelis came from other places, EU, Africa, the rest of the Middle East. but now, most are born there. You can argue it is not their land, but it is also their home. 

I am just pointing out shit in history is cyclical in some places. Bomb today, kids remember and grow up with hate. saw this in 1995 in Bosnia and now we see the Balkans again on the brink. 

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

2 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

I can see that. They are a far right party. They need the boogeyman. Just like the Sheiks need Israel so their poor don't realize while you live on Hummus I have a place in Monte Carlo, a few dozen large boats, and if you fuck with me my pet cheetah will eat you. 

[chainsaw 9,831]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

They kind of have. They grew food. Go back and look at the hand over of Gaza to the PA. First thing destroyed, farms. 

At first most Israelis came from other places, EU, Africa, the rest of the Middle East. but now, most are born there. You can argue it is not their land, but it is also their home. 

I am just pointing out shit in history is cyclical in some places. Bomb today, kids remember and grow up with hate. saw this in 1995 in Bosnia and now we see the Balkans again on the brink. 

Israel has not treated any Palestinians with dignity for a long time, if ever. The blockades, the checkpoints, the routine aggression, even the most charitable interpretation of how Israel treats Palestinians would not meet the definition of "non-aggression."

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Israel has not treated any Palestinians with dignity for a long time, if ever. The blockades, the checkpoints, the routine aggression, even the most charitable interpretation of how Israel treats Palestinians would not meet the definition of "non-aggression."

I agree. And the invasion of Lebanon, increasing the settlements, etc. 

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

I'm going to go both sides. Is it a both though? I mean how many threads are in this Gordian Knot? 

This goes back fucking millenia. Cycles of hate and revenge with intermittent grudging peace.

I don't know how to fix this or aggy.

All I know is that there's a lot of fucked up motives and outcomes all around and no one has clean hands.

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

the continued expansion of Israeli settlements. (As an aside, if Israelis were so worried about their security in a small country, why do they continually keep moving *closer* to Palestinians?)

This is the thing that cheeses me off about Israel probably the most.  They should be withdrawing/disengaging with the occupied territories as much as possible.

[David Dennison 18,608]

57 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I’d very much like that outcome.
But I also believe it wouldn’t ultimately work.
What will the Palestinians do with full and complete sovereignty over land literally within east shooting distance of Israel? If you bet on “shoot,” I expect you’ll be getting paid.
It’s still probably what should happen. They’ll just be in a state of perpetual war against each other.
Kind of like they are now.

At least it would be two states instead of one state that completely dominates the other and prevents it from attaining the rights and privileges that come with sovereignty.

[Biff Tannen 45,477]

30 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

That is completely fucked up and would not at all surprise me.  Bibi is a piece of shit.

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At least it would be two states instead of one state that completely dominates the other and prevents it from attaining the rights and privileges that come with sovereignty.

I am in favor of two states. The question is how and external influence.

Concerning Palestinians, who would control this second state and would they stop? I am not sure Iran would stop their BS. And Hezbollah is a wild card. 

Shit, why not go all Bosnia and have a UN element to control it for 20 years as divided states. 

1- Halt the damn settlements. This needs to happen. 

2- Build up the Palestinian government's capacity AND social services. 

3- UN carries guarantees for security of protected sites. 

4- Protectors of each element I already wrote to. Jordan for the West Bank, Egypt for Gaza. 

Would this work? 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11,796]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

At least it would be two states instead of one state that completely dominates the other and prevents it from attaining the rights and privileges that come with sovereignty.

Maybe the weaker state should just leave and band with the supporting states around it, oh, wait,  they don’t want them either.  The Arabs in Israel, right or not just need to leave.  Outfuck the Israelites. You’re not going to outshoot them as dysfunctional as you are.  

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Egypt for Gaza. 

Would this work? 

I don't know if the Egyptians are going to get behind this. 

What you suggested is better than what we have now.

 

[David Dennison 18,608]

1 minute ago, Judge Roybeanbag said:

Maybe the weaker state should just leave and band with the supporting states around it, oh, wait,  they don’t want them either.  The Arabs in Israel, right or not just need to leave.  Outfuck the Israelites. You’re not going to outshoot them as dysfunctional as you are.  

Maybe Israelis should leave the occupied territories.

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

Just now, cactusflinthead said:

I don't know if the Egyptians are going to get behind this. 

What you suggested is better than what we have now.

 

If they did not have to deal with Hamas, could control the border, I think so. At least for 1 generation. 

[DixonHur 11,074]

1 minute ago, cactusflinthead said:

I don't know if the Egyptians are going to get behind this. 

What you suggested is better than what we have now.

 

They could restore the 18th Dynasty

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19,074]

2 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

They could restore the 18th Dynasty

Hatshepsut FTW!

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

I keep going back to the ladder. A stupid hundred something year old ladder that was left at a break time or he had to go get parts, take a dump, whatever.

Well in the meantime back at HQ, whoever was in charge at the moment in Jerusalem said NOTHING CHANGES from right NOW 

And it's been there ever since.

Nope. Can't move it.

Nothing changes. It all is in a weird time stasis. An endless loop. Dormammu isn't there to bargain with. It's just us. Arguing with ourselves about whether or not we can live next to each other.

[DixonHur 11,074]

The religious scholars on the right are joining the chat

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

1 minute ago, longhornmatt said:

that’s that

Pretty much. The Palestinians are going to get hammered.

It doesn't have to be this way. But, that's where we are going.

[bolverk 29,360]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is the thing that cheeses me off about Israel probably the most.  They should be withdrawing/disengaging with the occupied territories as much as possible.

That's the nail I keep hammering. If they want peace, why do they keep pushing Palestinians off the land? The settlements on the West Bank keep expanding while the Palestinians keep getting squeezed. It's not just rogue Orthodox settlers doing it either -- it's the policy of the Israeli government. I realize this is a loaded word, but they're pushing the West Bank Palestinians into ghettos, much like Gaza already is. They're making a bad situation worse, deliberately.

 

Quote

 

Half of West Bank Land Seized by Israel Exclusively for Settler Use, Report Says
Expropriated land that must legally be used to serve both Israeli settlers and Palestinians now holds settlements and roads for Jews only

According to a report released on Wednesday, nearly half of the West Bank land expropriated for public purposes is used only by Jewish settlers.

Such land was seized mainly for the construction of infrastructure such roads, but over the years, Israel issued expropriation orders for plots on which four settlements were established. Israeli High Court of Justice rulings over the years have determined that Palestinian land in the West Bank can only be seized for public use that will also benefit Palestinians.

The report was released by the Israeli nonprofits Kerem Navot and Haqel, and found that of the expropriated land in the West Bank, only 2 percent is used by Palestinians alone. The rest of the land is used partly by both populations, and partly by settlers only.

According to a study conducted by Dror Etkes and attorney Quamar Mishirqi-Assad, from the occupation of the West Bank in 1967 until 2022, 313 expropriation orders were issued for public purposes for lands covering an area of approximately 74,000 dunams (about 18,285 acres). Seized lands that serve both Jews and Palestinians make up approximately 37,000 dunams (about 9,142 acres); those that serve settlers alone make up over 36,000 dunams (about 8,895 acres). Only 1,532 dunams (about 378 acres) are used by Palestinians only.

Most of the expropriation orders were issued for the construction of roads that are used by both Palestinians and settlers. In some cases, however, expropriation orders were issued for the construction of access paths into the different settlements or the roads within them.

One clear example of how lands that are allegedly seized for public use are eventually used by settlers alone is the construction of the road used by the residents of the Jewish settlement of Kedar in 2002. To build the road, the Israeli army expropriated some 194 dunams (about 48 acres) from the village of Abu Dis, on the outskirts of Jerusalem.

According to the original plan, the road was supposed to connect the entrance to the Palestinian town of Al-Eizariya with the main road that leads to Bethlehem. The army, however, has blocked the road, and for 20 years, it has been used almost entirely by settlers from Kedar. Last year, the military planned to remove the roadblock and allow Palestinian travelers to use the road as well, but following protests by the settlers, the plan never progressed.

On four occasions, expropriation orders were issued for land on which settlements were later built. The most extensive among them was the 1975 order that expropriated more than 28,000 dunams (about 6,918 acres) from seven Palestinian villages.

The city of Ma'aleh Adumim, the Mishor Adumim Industrial Park and part of the settlement of Mitzpe Yeriho were built on this land, but cover only about a quarter of the total expropriated area. The settlements of Ofra and Har Gilo were also built there, and the controversial construction plan in the E1 area (between Jerusalem and Ma'aleh Adumim) is supposed to be built based on this 1975 order.

Israel has also issued expropriation orders for archaeological sites. For example, 139 dunams (about 39 acres) of land close to homes in the Palestinian village of Al-Auja were recently expropriated for the archeological site of Archelais. In contrast, among the expropriation orders issued for Palestinian use alone are those for building sewage treatment plants and bus stations.

The data shows a correlation between the number of expropriation orders and the increase in settlements construction. According to the report, this is not a coincidence. Some 56 percent of the 179 orders that were issued to date were made between 1977 and 1984, and it was during these years that 70 new settlements were built – a task that required the construction of infrastructure and roads.

The accepted Israeli legal position is that the expropriation of land for public use for settlers is only allowed when it also serves the Palestinians. This was determined as an outcome of a petition submitted against the construction of Route 443 (which runs between Tel Aviv and Jerusalem), which determined that the road can be built because it serves both populations.

In 2017, then-Attorney General Avichai Mendelblit submitted a legal opinion that privately owned Palestinian land could be expropriated for the public use of the settlements. This was part of an attempt to legalize the Jewish outpost of Harsha, which was complicated by an access road that passed through private land. The opinion came in light of a court decision by former Supreme Court Justice Salim Joubran, who ruled that land could be seized for the benefit of Israeli settlers because they, too, were part of the West Bank’s “local population.”

In 2020 Supreme Court President Esther Hayut nullified a law that would legalize the status of settlements partially built on privately owned Palestinian land, under the claim that it is "unconstitutional." In her ruling, Hayut said that the law "seeks to retroactively legalize illegal acts perpetrated by a specific population in the region whilst harming the rights of another."

 

 

Look at all these Israeli settlements past the expanding barrier. They wouldn't put them there if they were so concerned about security.

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

The religious scholars on the right are joining the chat

Bout the fourth time I have seen it today. 2/1 ratio? Or better? Still standing or double down?

 

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

1- Gotta get to the promised land. 

2- Give them the shitty land. 

3- Shitty place to live for that many people who hate. 

[Biff Tannen 45,477]

7 minutes ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Hatshepsut FTW!

[David Dennison 18,608]

Just now, longhornmatt said:

It’s ultimately this.  Arguments about correctly placing historical blame are irrelevant at this point.  It’s an active war, Hamas did something bad enough to trigger the war that the international community isn’t going to condemn Israel for going to war, and that’s that.  All these decades old debates are completely academic now.  It’s not about fair solutions to fairly appease both sides anymore.  They aren’t going to get what they want.  Their options are fight and lose, or get the fuck out of dodge.  We should be figuring out how to get them the fuck out of dodge.

First question, how many do we relocate to the United States?

[Brisketexan 104,465]

At least it would be two states instead of one state that completely dominates the other and prevents it from attaining the rights and privileges that come with sovereignty.

Maybe.
Maybe that would be better. Maybe it’d be even worse. I’m all for trying the two state solution.
I just think the Pollyanna belief that “if only the Palestinians got a state, they’d settle in and things would be good.”…when they have consistently REJECTED a two state solution, well…you’re gonna be disappointed.
I don’t think that the Palestinians are looking to use many of the “rights and privileges” of sovereignty other than the “right and privilege” to wage war against Israel and the Jews. And I DEFINITELY don’t think their “allies” have any interest in helping them do anything BUT that.

[wildcat09 29,187]

2 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

Brisket is summarizing superbly what I’ve been trying for pages to get the Palestinian sympathizers here to admit. But posters like Dennison won’t, which is no surprise.

Accept Israel’s right to exist in exchange for a two state solution.  That’s been on the table for a long time and the right to exist has never been delivered. The Oslo solution was flawed both ways. The sides couldn’t deliver on that.  

So what is Israel supposed to do? The pressure on both sides has continued to ratchet up and more is coming.  Palestinians were conquered. They either accept a reasonable two state solution or it gets worse. 

 

 

 

 

Not really. From Haaretz:

Quote

How depressing and upsetting it is today to recall Benjamin Netanyahu’s arrogance under interrogation about Case 2000, one of the three corruption cases against the prime minister. “This is classified, don’t let it leak, okay?” he said, flattering the police investigators with the magic lure of security secrets. And then he explained his doctrine regarding Hamas and Hezbollah.

“We have neighbors,” he said, “who are our bitter enemies ... I send them messages all the time ... these days, right now ... I mislead them, destabilize them, mock them, and them hit them over the head.” The suspect then continued his lecture: “It’s impossible to reach an agreement with them ... Everyone knows this, but we control the height of the flames.”

This arrogant worldview, so disconnected from reality, isn’t the only thing that blew up in Netanyahu’s face, and ours, on Saturday morning. The other “concept” that collapsed was one many good people warned about: the idea that the leadership of the state could be entrusted to a criminal defendant.

History will judge everyone who lent a hand to this moral distortion – first and foremost the defendant himself and his fanatic supporters, party colleagues, and partners in the governing coalition, but also the media personalities and jurists who mobilized to kosher this abomination.

It will also presumably cast an unflattering light on the 11 Supreme Court justices who refrained from putting their fingers in the dike on the grounds that they lacked the power to do so, while shutting their eyes to the disastrous consequences of their passivism.

But even before that history is written, the state commission of inquiry that will have to be formed once the fires die down will have to delve into the prime minister’s priorities and agenda. It will have to examine how many hours he devoted this year to his dangerous justice minister, to the court’s reasonableness standard and to the Judicial Appointments Committee, compared to how many he devoted to his defense minister and the army’s chief of staff; it will have to examine how much attention he paid to the head of Military Intelligence compared to how much attention he paid to his lawyers and PR people.

It’s infuriating to recall that just a few months ago, Netanyahu found time to appear in the Jerusalem District Court to deter a frightened witness, the businessman Arnon Milchan, while Israel’s own deterrence was eroding. Or to recall his refusal to meet with IDF Chief of Staff Herzl Halevi, who sought to warn him about the destructive consequences of abolishing the reasonableness standard, on the day the law doing so was passed.

It’s impossible to close your eyes to the reality. There’s a clear connection between the corruption trial, the government’s judicial overhaul, and the greatest failure since the Yom Kippur War of 1973, perhaps even since the establishment of the state.

Admittedly, the intelligence agencies failed inconceivably at foreseeing the actual attack. But they warned Netanyahu time and again in recent months that Israel’s enemies had identified a historic weakness, making the likelihood of war higher than it has been since the Second Lebanon War of 2006.

Yet instead of quelling Justice Minister Yariv Levin, National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich due to this danger, Netanyahu prioritized ensuring his personal survival and the integrity of his coalition at the price of capitulating to insane, messianic racists. To this end, he turned his domestic rivals into enemies and systematically destroyed the connective tissue that, with great difficulty, held Israel society together.

He and his partners in this criminal organization forgot that Israel isn’t Poland or Hungary, but first and foremost a country deeply embroiled in a national conflict. Consequently, it doesn’t have the privilege of entertaining itself with dictatorial games.

Effectively, Netanyahu’s entire worldview collapsed over the course of a single day. He was convinced that he could make deals with corrupt Arab tyrants while ignoring the cornerstone of the Arab-Jewish conflict, the Palestinians. His life’s work was to turn the ship of state from the course steered by his predecessors, from Yitzhak Rabin to Ehud Olmert, and make the two-state solution impossible. En route to this goal, he found a partner in Hamas.

“Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,” he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. “This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.”

The worst terror attack in Israel’s history also strips Netanyahu of his title as “the terrorism expert,” a source of pride ever since he established the Jonathan Institute in memory of his brother Yoni, who was killed during the Entebbe hostage rescue. With its help, he marketed himself for years and eventually reached the Prime Minister’s Office.

Netanyahu learned the lesson of his predecessors Menachem Begin and Olmert and for years, maneuvered skillfully to avoid getting embroiled in a war in which hundreds would die, since he knew that would likely be the end of his road as a politician. But the vertigo of his current term, during which he sacrificed everything for the sake of clinging to power, resulted in “his nightmare scenario coming true,” to quote a man who knows him well.

He has been prime minister for most of the last 16 years, yet what he will be remembered for after he goes is this last devastating year. In a single day, under his reckless leadership, Israel paid a much higher price in blood than it did during the Second Lebanon War, and similar to what it paid during the first Lebanon War in the early 1980s.

Olmert will be credited with destroying Syria’s nuclear reactor and striving to end the conflict with the Palestinians. Begin will be remembered for bombing Iraq’s nuclear reactor and, of course, making peace with Egypt. Netanyahu’s portfolio of achievements is pretty thin, with all due respect to the Abraham Accords.

Not long ago, we marked the 40th anniversary of the cabinet meeting at which Begin announced that he couldn’t go on any longer. Israel was bogged down in the Lebanese quagmire, with fatalities mounting every day, and this overcame him.

“The reason is that with every fiber of my being, I can’t go on,” Begin told his partners in Likud and the governing coalition, who begged him to reconsider. “There are times like that ... If I had even a shadow of a doubt that I could go on, I would do so. But it’s not in my power to do so. What does a man need to do if it’s not in his power? ... Allow me to go to the president [to resign] this very day. Forgive me, pardon me, grant me atonement. I can’t do it anymore.”

What we need now is for Netanyahu to follow in the footsteps of Likud’s first leader. But you can’t expect any soul-searching from him, and certainly not self-flagellation or shutting himself up at home à la Begin. Soon, any moment now, he’ll be blaming everyone except himself. The poison machine has already started to work.

Other examples of Netanyahu and other Likud members openly saying this can be found too, this was just the most accessible. They weren't just assholes pursuing a counterproductive strategy, they were intentionally empowering and emboldening Hamas because they knew it'd be fatal to efforts to achieve a two state solution, because they've never wanted one any more than Hamas has. 

Maybe Brisket is right that the majority of Palestinians would refuse to co-exist. I don't think he is, but given the conditions they've been forced to live under, I don't exactly disbelieve it either. But, and I really need to note this again, the median Palestinian age is fucking 19. In Gaza it's 18 (and for males in Gaza it's 17).  We are talking about a population of roughly 5 million people, half of whom are children.  Half of all Palestinians have spent quite literally their entire lives suffering from truly horrific, unimaginable oppression and violence and taught by Hamas to hate Jews. And this is an outcome that Israel's right wing government wanted and helped engineer. They ensured that there would be no moderate voices.

Meanwhile, they've been priming their own supporters to support and even demand genocide (much as our right wing is doing here). And they've had a lot of success there.  Already, back in 2021, Israeli far-right groups carried out their own mini-kristallnacht against Arab Israelis:

Quote

"We saw a ticking time bomb - groups specifically targeting Arab civilians of Israel, including incitement, weapon-hoarding, information on specific Arab-owned businesses and more.

"Groups began organising to go to Ramla, Lod, Bat Yam, Afula, Haifa, Tiberias, Jerusalem, Beersheba, and others - in the stated goal of attacking Arabs," they wrote.

Screenshots of various far-right groups chats included someone writing: "Today we are Nazis," and another writing, "today we are shahids", using the Arabic term for "martyr".

Likud and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. 

As a bit of an aside, I also think there is good reason to think that what many Palestinians say when asked and what they would actually do if given a real opportunity to coexist peacefully with Israelis would be different. Under current conditions, it's easy when primed to say something shitty and I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas violently "encouraged" those types of responses to journalists. But if they were offered a real opportunity at a better alternative, I think most would take it. I mean c'mon, if the fuckin Irish could make peace with England anything is possible. 

[bolverk 29,360]

7 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

It’s ultimately this.  Arguments about correctly placing historical blame are irrelevant at this point.  It’s an active war, Hamas did something bad enough to trigger the war that the international community isn’t going to condemn Israel for going to war, and that’s that.  All these decades old debates are completely academic now.  

It’s not about fair solutions to fairly appease both sides anymore.  They aren’t going to get what they want.  Their options are fight and lose, or get the fuck out of Dodge.  The international community should be figuring out how to get them the fuck out of Dodge.

Don't know if you've noticed but a shit ton already emigrate from Palestine to escape oppression and pursue opportunities abroad. Then you have assholes like Macklemore/Icono, like he's one to talk, who keeps talking about an invasion by a "fifth column" in the West. 

[David Dennison 18,608]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Maybe.
Maybe that would be better. Maybe it’d be even worse. I’m all for trying the two state solution.
I just think the Pollyanna belief that “if only the Palestinians got a state, they’d settle in and things would be good.”…when they have consistently REJECTED a two state solution, well…you’re gonna be disappointed.
I don’t think that the Palestinians are looking to use many of the “rights and privileges” of sovereignty other than the “right and privilege” to wage war against Israel and the Jews. And I DEFINITELY don’t think their “allies” have any interest in helping them do anything BUT that.

The longer the status quo continues, Israel's future becomes more and more precarious. 

[DixonHur 11,074]

SIAP

It certainly didn't take long for Putin's puppets to get their marching orders

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

9 minutes ago, bolverk said:

That's the nail I keep hammering. If they want peace, why do they keep pushing Palestinians off the land? The settlements on the West Bank keep expanding while the Palestinians keep getting squeezed. It's not just rogue Orthodox settlers doing it either -- it's the policy of the Israeli government. I realize this is a loaded word, but they're pushing the West Bank Palestinians into ghettos, much like Gaza already is. They're making a bad situation worse, deliberately.

 

 

Look at all these Israeli settlements past the expanding barrier. They wouldn't put them there if they were so concerned about security.

I mean, yeah, they took it in a war waged against them.  I suppose they would have been within their rights at that time to move in as many Israelis as wanted to go, but they didn't need the territory, so they just kind of left it until fairly recently.

[crash_davis 23,078]

I used to work with 2 Palestinians who are Christian who grew up in the West Bank. They are not related and didn't know each other before joining the company.  Both told horrible stories of the indescriminate shit they got from Israeli security forces. They are two of the nicest guys that I know. 

I don't say this to disparage Jews or Isreal. I say it to acknowledge that it's a fucked up situation with no clear cut good guys or bad guys. What's certain is that innocent people are, and have been, suffering for decades. This shit is going to make it worse for everyone. Thousands more innocent people are dying and are going to die from this shit. It'll just prolong hate.

Its all fucked up.

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

Just now, DixonHur said:

SIAP

It certainly didn't take long for Putin's puppets to get their marching orders

No, Josh, they really aren't.

Let me know when the Russian-backed Syrian tanks show up at the border.

Oh, wait, Russia's not really backing anyone these days and they're fresh out of tanks.

[chainsaw 9,831]

Israel already has all our fucking money Hee-Hawley, and they're up against a bunch of malnourished prisoners, not a former global superpower with infinite ammo.

[David Dennison 18,608]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Israel already has all our fucking money Hee-Hawley, and they're up against a bunch of malnourished prisoners, not a former global superpower with infinite ammo.

The long-term threat to Israel is the collapse of democracy brought on by ongoing security threats.

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

9 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

The longer the status quo continues, Israel's future becomes more and more precarious. 

No, it is not. The nation may change, but it will remain. 

Tomorrow Israel would kick the shit out of the Arabs states. Yemeni out front should have told you. 

What sucks is they are going to have to continue this policy of segregation, and the Arab nations need Israel to do just that. Interesting the UAE has been quiet. 

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

The long-term threat to Israel is the collapse of democracy brought on by ongoing security threats.

That is different. You could say the same about us. 

[Brisketexan 104,465]

Likud and Hamas are two sides of the same coin. 
As a bit of an aside, I also think there is good reason to think that what many Palestinians say when asked and what they would actually do if given a real opportunity to coexist peacefully with Israelis would be different. Under current conditions, it's easy when primed to say something shitty and I wouldn't be surprised if Hamas violently "encouraged" those types of responses to journalists. But if they were offered a real opportunity at a better alternative, I think most would take it. I mean c'mon, if the fuckin Irish could make peace with England anything is possible. 

Oh, Likud is a piece of dick and Bibi is a fucking criminal - perhaps in 100 different ways. The shit that’s going to come out may be pretty damned shocking.

The longer the status quo continues, Israel's future becomes more and more precarious. 

Like I said, no good choices. Every choice is poison. Death is at the end of all of them. A lot of death.
It’s the path we really are loving to choose with some increasing frequency again. We’re a shit species.

[bolverk 29,360]

11 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

I mean, yeah, they took it in a war waged against them.  I suppose they would have been within their rights at that time to move in as many Israelis as wanted to go, but they didn't need the territory, so they just kind of left it until fairly recently.

No, they wouldn't. Territorial conquest is proscribed by international law.

[wildcat09 29,187]

Another aside, and something that pales in significance to what's currently happening, but it wasn't long ago that the IDF assassinated an American journalist in the West Bank. You know, much like the Saudis did just a couple of years before that.  That type of fucking brazenness is the sort of thing you see from the worst, most arrogant fucking people in the world. Netanyahu really is no better than Putin or MBS.  The Israeli people deserve better than that piece of shit and his fascist allies.

[David Dennison 18,608]

 

[Aqua Buddha 14,489]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

 

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

So, at attack on Israel is a Jewish conspiracy, too?  Nice.

 

 

[6th Street 6,340]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

[chainsaw 9,831]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

 

[dieucla98 2,931]

1 hour ago, cactusflinthead said:

Cross posted because it's way too controversial and inflammatory in DT.

What is up ladies and gentlemen?

That's fucking direct quote 

 

 

I'll be damned, he might be right.

Edited October 10, 2023 by dieucla98

[bolverk 29,360]

One of the things that really bugs me about the DT thread right now is that many of its participants could not give one single solitary fuck about atrocities committed by Russia on Ukrainian civilians. I'd bet there are several on there who've now posted more on a day-old, 8-page thread than on a 5-year-old, 1,500-page one.

Is that because of who the victims are (speaking only about Israelis since Saturday vs Ukranians)? Or is it more about who the aggressors are (Muslims vs. Putin/Russia)?

[Brisketexan 104,465]

Also, if that Haaretz story is true (re Likud and Bibi purposefully supporting Hamas to sabotage chances at peace)….he should hang. For real, the Israeli people should execute him - flat-out treason.
This story being true would not surprise me at all. Bibi is a shit human being, the Israeli Trump.

[InkaUtexas 25,426]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

One of the things that really bugs me about the DT thread right now is that many of its participants could not give one single solitary fuck about atrocities committed by Russia on Ukrainian civilians. I'd bet there are several on there who've now posted more on a day-old, 8-page thread than on a 5-year-old, 1,500-page one.

Is that because of who the victims are (speaking only about Israelis since Saturday vs Ukranians)? Or is it more about who the aggressors are (Muslims vs. Putin/Russia)?

Yep, lot of new posters and just spreading oddball BS. 

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

28 minutes ago, bolverk said:

No, they wouldn't. Territorial conquest is proscribed by international law.

Well, that's why I said probably.  And the proscription of territorial conquest applies with less (or no) force to those defending themselves.

[TwiceHorn 31,184]

3 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yep, lot of new posters and just spreading oddball BS. 

Well, I for one havent posted in a Ukraine thread in quite some time because ultimately war is fatiguing to me, depressing.  I did post some at the outset.  I still wholeheartedly support Ukraine.

When this devolves into a war of attrition or annhillation, I'll probably stop doomscrolling it too.

[wildcat09 29,187]

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, if that Haaretz story is true (re Likud and Bibi purposefully supporting Hamas to sabotage chances at peace)….he should hang. For real, the Israeli people should execute him - flat-out treason.
This story being true would not surprise me at all. Bibi is a shit human being, the Israeli Trump.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Quote

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Israeli officials said these permits, which allow Gazan laborers to earn higher salaries than they would in the enclave, were a powerful tool to help preserve calm.

Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.

Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.

Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip.

Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.

According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2018, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.

While Netanyahu does not make these kind of statements publicly or officially, his words are in line with the policy that he implemented.

The same messaging was repeated by right-wing commentators, who may have received briefings on the matter or talked to Likud higher-ups and understood the message.

Bolstered by this policy, Hamas grew stronger and stronger until Saturday, Israel’s “Pearl Harbor,” the bloodiest day in its history — when terrorists crossed the border, slaughtered hundreds of Israelis and kidnapped an unknown number under the cover of thousands of rockets fired at towns throughout the country’s south and center.

The country has known attacks and wars, but never on such a scale in a single morning.

One thing is clear: The concept of indirectly strengthening Hamas — while tolerating sporadic attacks and minor military operations every few years — went up in smoke Saturday.

Just a few days ago, Assaf Pozilov, a reporter for the Kan public broadcaster, tweeted the following: “The Islamic Jihad organization has started a noisy exercise very close to the border, in which they practiced launching missiles, breaking into Israel and kidnapping soldiers.”

The difference between Islamic Jihad and Hamas doesn’t matter much at this point. As far as the State of Israel is concerned, the territory is under the control of Hamas, and it is responsible for all the training and activities there.

Hamas became stronger and used the auspices of peace that Israelis so longed for as cover for its training, and hundreds of Israelis have paid with their lives for this massive omission.

The terror inflicted on the civilian population in Israel is so enormous that the wounds from it will not heal for years, a challenge compounded by the dozens abducted into Gaza.

Judging by the way Netanyahu has managed Gaza in the last 13 years, it is not certain that there will be a clear policy going forward.

With a little more digging, I'm sure we can find plenty of examples of other hard-right politicians in Israel expressing the same thoughts. But long before they began openly admitting it, the fact that Likud and Hamas had common interests and were aligned against peace was still obvious:

Quote

The terrorist attacks on Israelis in the Gaza Strip on Sunday by Hamas and Islamic Holy War evoked the usual outcry from the hawkish side of the Israeli spectrum: "Stop the peace talks until the Palestinians behave themselves!"

Fortunately, the Israeli Government has decided not to break off the talks with the Palestinians on arranging Palestinian elections and self-rule on the West Bank. A cessation of negotiations would give the terrorists exactly what they wanted to achieve by these and previous atrocities.

However, it is not a suspension or slowing down of the peace process that the Israeli extremists want when they demand that the Government halt the negotiations for a "reassessment." What the extremists really are after is close to what the Palestinian terrorists want: no peace with such an "illegitimate," even "evil," enemy.

A few days ago, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said that the Likud Party is the best collaborator that Hamas could hope for. He was probably referring to the fact that after each murderous attack by Hamas, the Likud wages a wild propaganda campaign against the Government and against the peace process -- and that this propaganda greatly amplifies the effect of the attack.

It seems to me that the Prime Minister should have said that Hamas is the best tool that the extremist hawks in Israel have.

Were it not for the crimes of Hamas, Israeli hardliners would be in a sorry state, because they would have to reconcile themselves to peace -- or to admit to the truth that for years they have been doing their utmost to hide from the Israeli public: the fact that, all pretense aside, they are not struggling for "a difference peace."

Actually, they are against any kind of peace between Israel and the Palestinian nation, unless it's the kind where we are the masters and the Palestinians obey us unconditionally.

Even the term "Palestinian nation" is avoided by Israel's extreme right through the use of all sorts of euphemisms such as "Arabs in the occupied territories" and "locals." The extreme right spreads hysteria among the public with expressions such as an "Arafat state" or a "terrorist state" in the same way that the followers of the ayatollahs in Iran evade the fact of Israel's existence by referring to it as "the vile entity" or the "state of Zionist outlaws."

With their murderous cruelty, the Hamas and the Islamic Holy War movements are doing the extremists in Israel the best possible service by enabling them to conceal the real objective behind their righteous declarations and slogans such as "this peace is killing us" and "give us another kind of peace."

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In fact, the extreme right is not opposed to this particular peace but to any kind of peace based on the recognition of the existence of two peoples living on this land.

If the Oslo accords had been realized without a single terrorist attack, without a single casualty, the extreme right would be in a really bad way. It would have no choice but to admit that it is neither a question of national security nor a question of personal security that dictates its opposition to a compromise between the two nations based on mutual recognition of the right to self-determination.

Everywhere and always, Israel's zealots display the logic of lunacy, constantly swinging and swaying on a high wire between one thing and its opposite.

Palestinian violence? Terror? Intifada? All these things mean that we are dealing with wild animals who must be given nothing.

Respite? Remission? Reduction in Palestinian violence? That's a sure sign that they are no more than frightened sheep, so there is no need to relinquish anything to them.

Palestinian political voices denying the very existence of the state of Israel? They're nothing but base murderers.

Other Palestinian political voices willing to recognize the existence of Israel? They're still a bunch of murderers, but this time cunning and crafty.

It is easy, with the help of the murders perpetrated by Hamas, like Sunday's, for Israeli extremists to paint their ideological rejectionism with the color of spilled blood and to spread over their messianic ambitions a camouflage net of justifications based on security.

The crimes of the Palestinian extremists allow their Israeli counterparts to tug righteously at the Government's sleeve and to demand postponement, deferment, a freeze or a slowdown of the peace process -- while their real intention is to banish for good any danger of peace with the Palestinian nation because they do not accept the very existence of such a nation.

Some zealots may feel that a continued state of conflict and siege, a continued regional and international isolation of Israel, constitute a guaranteed protection of Israel's "Jewish identity" against blurring or eradication under open political and emotional borders between Israel and the Arabs, and between Israel and the rest of the world. They say, "We shall remain ourselves for as long as they remain themselves -- and for as long as the whole world is against us."

The war between Israel and Palestine has been going on for more than 70 years. With the first chance to deliver both sides from their tragedy by way of a compromise, fear prevails on both sides.

The Hamas manifesto says, among other hateful statements: "Hamas has vowed to wage a holy war against the Jews in Palestine, until a victory of Allah is achieved. The land must be cleansed of the evil and iniquity of the tyrannical conquerors. . . . By order of the Prophet, the Muslims must fight the Jews and kill them, wherever they are. . . . Palestine is a holy Moslem asset to the end of time, so that no man has the right to negotiate about her or to relinquish (any part of) her."

These Hamas words are a gift from heaven to Israel's extremist hawks, because they inflict despair on the Israeli public -- a loss of any hope of reaching a compromise.

These statements are also a gift because, while much harsher than all the mysticism spouted by the zealous right in Israel, they are not far removed from the Israeli hard line in engendering an atmosphere of religious, chauvinist egoism.

Hamas therefore should be seen as the most effective collaborator of the extreme right in Israel.

Not long after that, Rabin was assassinated by a Netanyahu supporter.

[DixonHur 11,074]

Not sure if this goes here or the Ukraine thread, but IMO he is dead on with his analysis.  

I'm probably being a little reactionary, but I truly believe we are headed toward a world war.  And I worry it will come with a side of civil war.  The Russians have their hooks in tight on the American right. 

[cactusflinthead 27,593]

Yeah that's great