Israel

[cactusflinthead 27628]

 

[Biff Tannen 46208]

3 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

 

And yet if we post this in DT for the dipshits that have been chanting “leadership”, we’d get a slap on the wrist. 

[sidis 10020]

14 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure if this goes here or the Ukraine thread, but IMO he is dead on with his analysis.  

I'm probably being a little reactionary, but I truly believe we are headed toward a world war.  And I worry it will come with a side of civil war.  The Russians have their hooks in tight on the American right. 

I volunteer to be responsible for assessing exacerbated cleavages. 

[cactusflinthead 27628]

1 minute ago, Biff Tannen said:

And yet if we post this in DT for the dipshits that have been chanting “leadership”, we’d get a slap on the wrist. 

I already have 2 warnings 

[InkaUtexas 26980]

9 minutes ago, sidis said:

I volunteer to be responsible for assessing exacerbated cleavages. 

Great catch! You are nominated just for that. 

[David Dennison 19571]

18 minutes ago, cactusflinthead said:

I already have 2 warnings 

DT is our own little texags.

[InkaUtexas 26980]

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

DT is our own little texags.

Please explain how on the Ukraine or Israel-Hamas thread people have been acting like Texags? Those few who have have been shot down pretty quickly by people like @atomheartbevo, @Brisketexan and quite a few more. 

Relax, have some tea. 

And I was one who suggested @cactusflinthead bring it over here and we had a good discussion. Don't want the overlords to ban a good poster, this shit is moving fast, it is complicated and @blacklabmade it clear. This is for politics, the other thread is for news. Same as Ukraine. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by InkaUtexas

[David Dennison 19571]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Please explain how on the Ukraine or Israel-Hamas thread people have been acting like Texags? Those few who have have been shot down pretty quickly by people like @atomheartbevo, @Brisketexan and quite a few more. 

Relax, have some tea. 

Settle down, it's a joke about DT being the conservative CR.

Sheesh.

[InkaUtexas 26980]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Settle down, it's a joke about DT being the conservative CR.

Sheesh.

But it is not. How is your tea? Mine is really good. Added some pure honey. Wife is making scones. 

[Hagbard Celine 11296]

i don't have bandwidth to catch up on 44 pages....

can someone tell me if the following have been cited/mentioned/discussed

balfour

sykes-picot

oslo

[F250 29205]

39 minutes ago, sidis said:

I volunteer to be responsible for assessing exacerbated cleavages. 

[David Dennison 19571]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

But it is not. How is your tea? Mine is really good. Added some pure honey. Wife is making scones. 

[F250 29205]

2 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

i don't have bandwidth to catch up on 44 pages....

can someone tell me if the following have been cited/mentioned/discussed

balfour

sykes-picot

oslo

No, apparently this is an ancient problem dating back to Esau and Jacob.

 

[InkaUtexas 26980]

Just now, F250 said:

No, apparently this is an ancient problem dating back to Esau and Jacob.

 

But the Vikings in Iceland and some dude named Cyrus, or was it Marcus, were involved. Oh, and there was a sea with some scrolls. 

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Those two threads have been solid. 

[Hagbard Celine 11296]

i wish i had time to digest everything

has anyone cited munich?

the 100 hostages should be considered already dead

[InkaUtexas 26980]

4 minutes ago, Hagbard Celine said:

i wish i had time to digest everything

has anyone cited munich?

the 100 hostages should be considered already dead

Baking soda

Yes

yes. 

[C-Man 27836]

Spotted at Torchy’s in FW on Sunday

Nick Fuentes and Kyle Rittenhouse were in FW this weekend.

[bolverk 30376]

49 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Please explain how on the Ukraine or Israel-Hamas thread people have been acting like Texags?

Macklemore/Icono's repeated Right Wing talking point that anyone showing any sort of support in the West is part of a "fifth column" (enemy from within), focusing on Middle Easterners. I'm not going to go looking for it, but he outright stated or strongly implied that Europe shouldn't have let Muslims/Middle Easterners in, which is rich, given his ethnicity. Also, his ongoing lie about his identity.

Yes, a couple of his posts show people who appear to be celebrating the Hamas attacks, but he also groups in protesters who might just be generally supportive of Palestinian liberation. From a few of the clips, you can't tell the difference between the two motivations -- although I would also argue that protesting for Palestinian liberation during all of this is definitely in very poor taste. But calling them a "fifth column" goes too far.

But I also take into account his body of work here and previously on Shaggy where he shows absolute contempt for anyone who's darker in complexion than he is, along with his well-established islamophobia.

Then, of course, we have Frank Drebin/Johnny Sack (why do they keep changing handles?) chiming in with the racially/ethnically/religiously tinged comment that protestors in NY are "vermin." Again, I'm considering his posting history when remarking on that comment.

I've got to say, I'm very uncomfortable with this type of stereotyping from both of those two absolute knobheads, and it's the kind of shit that I truly wish would be moderated better.

[InkaUtexas 26980]

Interesting note overnight. CNN was able to get into Gaza. Israel stated they were warning occupants via text of targets. This was a standard SOP in the past. Palestinians are saying no warnings were given. 

Break down in comms? Lying on either or both sides? This is a shit fest. 

[InkaUtexas 26980]

Grozny, Bakmout, Raqqa. Damn...... 

 

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19346]

4 hours ago, bolverk said:

Macklemore/Icono's repeated Right Wing talking point that anyone showing any sort of support in the West is part of a "fifth column" (enemy from within), focusing on Middle Easterners. I'm not going to go looking for it, but he outright stated or strongly implied that Europe shouldn't have let Muslims/Middle Easterners in, which is rich, given his ethnicity. Also, his ongoing lie about his identity.

Yes, a couple of his posts show people who appear to be celebrating the Hamas attacks, but he also groups in protesters who might just be generally supportive of Palestinian liberation. From a few of the clips, you can't tell the difference between the two motivations -- although I would also argue that protesting for Palestinian liberation during all of this is definitely in very poor taste. But calling them a "fifth column" goes too far.

But I also take into account his body of work here and previously on Shaggy where he shows absolute contempt for anyone who's darker in complexion than he is, along with his well-established islamophobia.

Then, of course, we have Frank Drebin/Johnny Sack (why do they keep changing handles?) chiming in with the racially/ethnically/religiously tinged comment that protestors in NY are "vermin." Again, I'm considering his posting history when remarking on that comment.

I've got to say, I'm very uncomfortable with this type of stereotyping from both of those two absolute knobheads, and it's the kind of shit that I truly wish would be moderated better.

Then you have the poster (Porterhouse aka the former Dr. Beeper) who got butthurt here when he was told by multiple people he was wrong, basically called for wiping out Palestinians that didn’t leave if they were told to, then when he got called out for it, asked to have his account wiped.  All because I negged him. Insert rolling eyes emoji here.  These folks don’t care about engaging in honest, civil discourse.  They have a world view that does not reflect reality, want an echo chamber, and cannot stand being called on their bullshit.

[PenelopeWitherspoon 19346]

A few have alluded to this, but I am increasingly in belief that the intelligence on how to get around Israel’s defense was one of the many things I am 99.9% certain ole DJT let his buddy Putin know about.  Russia tells, Iran, Iran lets their useful idiots Hamas know, and BAM.  More destabilization.  

[Aqua Buddha 14810]

7 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

With a little more digging, I'm sure we can find plenty of examples of other hard-right politicians in Israel expressing the same thoughts. But long before they began openly admitting it, the fact that Likud and Hamas had common interests and were aligned against peace was still obvious:

Not long after that, Rabin was assassinated by a Netanyahu supporter.

Much like the plot of Star Trek 6 if you think about it.

[Dbeasy 15613]

Props to the posters who’ve brought into the thread what appear to be pretty credible reports of the Israeli government departing privately in action from the public position of supporting a Palestinian state in exchange for recognition. That’s a pretty big deal.

It may be that the fighting over the recent years has simply hardened the positions of both sides to the point where there is really no way back to the negotiating table.  If true, it’s a chilling thought for what comes next.

[bolverk 30376]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

Then you have the poster (Porterhouse aka the former Dr. Beeper) who got butthurt here when he was told by multiple people he was wrong, basically called for wiping out Palestinians that didn’t leave if they were told to, then when he got called out for it, asked to have his account wiped.  All because I negged him. Insert rolling eyes emoji here.  These folks don’t care about engaging in honest, civil discourse.  They have a world view that does not reflect reality, want an echo chamber, and cannot stand being called on their bullshit.

One of the interesting sociological types of observations is the lack of awareness among posters that we all have a rather immutable "voice" that others can pick up on fairly easily if only paying a little attention. You see it in a number of conservative posters who change their handles on a regular basis, and I'm not only talking about the ones who get negged out of existence before building up the rep to survive the storm.

There's a certain je-ne-sais-quoi that's simply a tell. I'm not exactly sure what it is, but within only a post or two, I know exactly who the latest incarnation of GRHorn is, for example. That's not braggadocio; it's simply what it is, whether that be the Twitter accounts they follow or solely because of their "voice." I don't know.

Is there a certain blind spot that conservative posters have that leads them to believe they can put on a ruse? Again, I don't know, but it seems to happen with a regularity.

Edit: It's always also laughable when they stick with it. Rex/Beeper/Porterhouse is a good example. Everyone fucking knows who you are. Then, there's the absolutely pathetic Macklemore claims that he's not Iconoclast when it's patently obvious.

Edited October 10, 2023 by bolverk

[Nice Guy Eddie 13744]

These two are going to have a large fight every decade or two. And since both are becoming more and more conservative and religious, the fighting will just get worse in the future. Hamas knew exactly what the Israeli response would be, and they’re counting on the rest of the Middle East or some countries to react.

[Captainant 28607]

1 hour ago, PenelopeWitherspoon said:

A few have alluded to this, but I am increasingly in belief that the intelligence on how to get around Israel’s defense was one of the many things I am 99.9% certain ole DJT let his buddy Putin know about.  Russia tells, Iran, Iran lets their useful idiots Hamas know, and BAM.  More destabilization.  

100% aligned on this speculation - we do KNOW that trump shared Israeli intelligence with Lavrov in the oval office, but we don't know what he shared. It was a BFD at the time that was handwaved away and drowned out by the all the other crazy shit going on

https://www.npr.org/2017/05/15/528511980/report-trump-gave-classified-information-to-russians-during-white-house-visit

No telling what sort of knock on effect that sort of shit will have moving forward - we've already seen a bunch of CIA spooks get got, I wonder if our nuke info left in the shitter had anything good on it 

[bolverk 30376]

32 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

These two are going to have a large fight every decade or two. And since both are becoming more and more conservative and religious, the fighting will just get worse in the future. Hamas knew exactly what the Israeli response would be, and they’re counting on the rest of the Middle East or some countries to react.

That's likely true, but there may also be the chance they're just so steeped in their own shit they can't see the obvious. It's unfathomable to me that they thought killing/kidnapping raving kids, grandmas, or just moms would be a productive move.

Like I've said a few times and feel like I've made clear (I hope), I'm generally supportive of the Palestinian plight, but this kind of barbarous, murderous shit goes far beyond what any sort of legitimate resistance should be even considered. They've brought wrath and vengeance upon themselves along with any innocents.

It's sickening. I'll shed no tears for Hamas, but I've already let a few out for what's happening to the people.

Edited October 10, 2023 by bolverk

[Captainant 28607]

20 minutes ago, bolverk said:

It's unfathomable to me that they thought killing/kidnapping raving kids, grandmas, or just moms would be a productive move.

Call me crazy, but what if they weren't ordered to do atrocities and it's more a matter of the extremist radicalized fighters making the most of an opportunity to pay back generations of wrongs - real or propaganda. Once that match was lit, no telling what millennia of sectarian violence was going produce in terms of atrocities. 

 

20 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Like I've said a few times and feel like I've made clear (I hope), I'm generally supportive of the Palestinian plight, but this kind of barbarous, murderous shit goes far beyond what any sort of legitimate resistance should be even considered. They've brought wrath and vengeance upon themselves along with any innocents.

It was a tactic in WWII imperial Japan to force their soldiers to do atrocities so that it would remove all other options but to fight to the death or suffer reprisals from the enemy. I really do think there's an element of that at work here too from Hamas. Remove all other options for the Palestinians and local islamists, even if they wanted nothing more than to be at peace

 

Edit: I realize these two things are somewhat at odds with each other. I'm just thinking out loud and seeing what fits

Edited October 10, 2023 by Captainant

[AnTiM 1698]

Mention of imperial Japan is a reminder that they did not quit until faced with complete extinction, while Nazi Germany was reduced to complete rubble and all resistance killed, fled the country or taken prisoner.  Now they are among the world leaders in production and policy.  Maybe the same "cure" is the only possibility left now, not only for Hamas, the Palestinians, Iran but for every other POS group shouting "Death to Fill in the Blank".

[GW Hayduke 1957]

9 hours ago, bolverk said:

One of the things that really bugs me about the DT thread right now is that many of its participants could not give one single solitary fuck about atrocities committed by Russia on Ukrainian civilians. I'd bet there are several on there who've now posted more on a day-old, 8-page thread than on a 5-year-old, 1,500-page one.

Is that because of who the victims are (speaking only about Israelis since Saturday vs Ukranians)? Or is it more about who the aggressors are (Muslims vs. Putin/Russia)?

There is a ton of connection between Israel's Likud and Putin's Russia.  Both use the power of government and military to control and oppress the "others."  This is why DT, fox news loons, and trumpists align in their support with both.  Trumpists love the idea of an ethno-state imposing apartheid.  This is what they want in the US.  They want to use government to control culture and oppress.  They see both Bibi and Putin as heroes and see Trump as the same.  

The fact that Hamas is so incredibly terrible and literal terrorists gives a ton of cover to the trumpists to push their true desires - see the DT - genocide, oppression, ethnic cleansing. 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6598]

25 minutes ago, Captainant said:

Call me crazy, but what if they weren't ordered to do atrocities and it's more a matter of the extremist radicalized fighters making the most of an opportunity to pay back generations of wrongs - real or propaganda. Once that match was lit, no telling what millennia of sectarian violence was going produce in terms of atrocities. 

 

It was a tactic in WWII imperial Japan to force their soldiers to do atrocities so that it would remove all other options but to fight to the death or suffer reprisals from the enemy. I really do think there's an element of that at work here too from Hamas. Remove all other options for the Palestinians and local islamists, even if they wanted nothing more than to be at peace

 

Edit: I realize these two things are somewhat at odds with each other. I'm just thinking out loud and seeing what fits

I’m pretty sure copying the Japanese tactics in WW2 probably isn’t a great idea based on how it ended for them.  

[G650 14453]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

That's likely true, but there may also be the chance they're just so steeped in their own shit they can't see the obvious. It's unfathomable to me that they thought killing/kidnapping raving kids, grandmas, or just moms would be a productive move.

Like I've said a few times and feel like I've made clear (I hope), I'm generally supportive of the Palestinian plight, but this kind of barbarous, murderous shit goes far beyond what any sort of legitimate resistance should be even considered. They've brought wrath and vengeance upon themselves along with any innocents.

It's sickening. I'll shed no tears for Hamas, but I've already let a few out for what's happening to the people.

Same

[South Austin 53276]

9 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

Also, if that Haaretz story is true (re Likud and Bibi purposefully supporting Hamas to sabotage chances at peace)….he should hang. For real, the Israeli people should execute him - flat-out treason.
This story being true would not surprise me at all. Bibi is a shit human being, the Israeli Trump.

If there's a shred of truth to this, the media needs to be all over it.  

The "legacy media" is already talking about the massive intelligence failure of the Israeli government.  If those two are linked, there should be pure hell to pay.

CNN: In times of crisis, Israelis rally around their leaders. This time is different. 

['stache 22148]

5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

If there's a shred of truth to this, the media needs to be all over it.  

The "legacy media" is already talking about the massive intelligence failure of the Israeli government.  If those two are linked, there should be pure hell to pay.

CNN: In times of crisis, Israelis rally around their leaders. This time is different. 

They would never do that no matter what is learned. Western leaders are required to say in unison “We Stand With Israel” without anything deeper or more nuanced into why this conflict keeps escalating with no end in sight.

[Snake Diggity 4721]

9 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Not sure if this goes here or the Ukraine thread, but IMO he is dead on with his analysis.  

I'm probably being a little reactionary, but I truly believe we are headed toward a world war.  And I worry it will come with a side of civil war.  The Russians have their hooks in tight on the American right. 

That is the most disappointing use of the word ‘cleavages’ I’ve ever read.

[babysdaddy 2731]

I never saw this discussed anywhere but here is the story about how Biden's suspended Iranian envoy Robert Malley helped fund/support an intelligence operation inside the US.  https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/iran-spy-ring-robert-malley-lee-smith

And here's the story about Iran getting $6billion in a prisoner swap that won't be used for anything other than "food/agriculture"

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/10/us/politics/iran-us-prisoner-swap.html

And then here's the story about Iran being behind the terrorist actions of Hamas 

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/iran-israel-hamas-strike-planning-bbe07b25

 

Don't think Iran (or Russia) was too fired up about the potential peace and defense deal between SA/Israel/US.  

[Js1 87300]

Took you a few days longer than I thought to make it Biden’s fault 

['stache 22148]

Pence did it in the first five minutes, because he’s human garbage.

[bernorange 8386]

10 hours ago, DixonHur said:

... I'm probably being a little reactionary, but I truly believe we are headed toward a world war.  ...

To the surprise of no one, Senator Graham is broadcasting calls for war with Iran if things escalate.  Anyone think things are not going to escalate?

[SmokeyTheBear 5569]

Rereading the carrier group movement. Interesting to me that A10s are part of the package. Tells me we are ready for ground support along with air support. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by SmokeyTheBear

[RomaVicta 30647]

Anyone doubt that the embattled criminal enterprise that is the GOP would happily start a war with anyone to "unify" the people" and change the domestic focus?

They could give a shit about who dies, what it costs, or how much it harms the remaining shreds of the republic.

They could give a shit. They should give a shit. But they don't. 

If they are willing to sacrifice lives to save their own skins, shouldn't they pay for that abhorrent crime with their own skins? I'm debating whether I mean that literally. It's a close call.

[bernorange 8386]

33 minutes ago, babysdaddy said:

...Don't think Iran (or Russia) was too fired up about the potential peace and defense deal between SA/Israel/US.  

This is the angle that intrigues me.  Saudi Arabia was noticeably drifting away from American influence since Obama's term when we refused to be their proxy in slapping Iran/Syria around.  KSA has gotten more aggressive since MbS came to power (brazen Khashoggi murder and oil production cuts designed to hurt USA at election time).  They even went so far as to re-establish diplomatic relations with Iran (talks of re-opening embassies) at China's behest so they might join the BRICS.

It really seems like there is a tug of war happening between the West and the BRICS for Saudi Arabia's favor and the BRICS could not allow an Israeli/USA - Saudi accord.

[Captainant 28607]

3 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Rereading the carrier group movement. Interesting to me that A10s are part of the package. Tells me we are ready for ground support along with air support. 

USAF is happy to run those things into the ground so they can finally sundown the program - they really don't hang anymore in the modern threat environment

[RomaVicta 30647]

12 hours ago, cactusflinthead said:

I'm going to go both sides. Is it a both though? I mean how many threads are in this Gordian Knot? 

This goes back fucking millenia. Cycles of hate and revenge with intermittent grudging peace.

I don't know how to fix this or aggy.

All I know is that there's a lot of fucked up motives and outcomes all around and no one has clean hands.

You've posted many excellent takes on this thread. I disagree with the factuality of the bolded. This started with settement by Zionists.

12 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

This is the thing that cheeses me off about Israel probably the most.  They should be withdrawing/disengaging with the occupied territories as much as possible.

 

12 hours ago, bolverk said:

That's the nail I keep hammering. If they want peace, why do they keep pushing Palestinians off the land? The settlements on the West Bank keep expanding while the Palestinians keep getting squeezed. It's not just rogue Orthodox settlers doing it either -- it's the policy of the Israeli government. I realize this is a loaded word, but they're pushing the West Bank Palestinians into ghettos, much like Gaza already is. They're making a bad situation worse, deliberately.

 

I'll get tiresome recommending An Indigenous People's History of the US, but it's so instructive about so many things.

One of those things is the pattern of invading a land, making peace with agreements on territory, the conqueror not stopping settlers from violating the agreed territory of the conquered then having the settlers start a conflict that the conquerors join to save the settlers.

It didn't start in N. America. The author points to Ireland as an example. Here we see it again. The natives revolt and get blamed for the war that ends up crushing them.

Israel gives de facto permission for illegal settlements then acts in outrage when they cause problems.

There are plenty of things to list about the crimes and cruelties of the Muslim world in response to Israel's existence and US intervention in that part of the world. That's a different discussion just as our record of errantly firing missiles into weddings and homes is a separate discussion from the outrage of 9/11.

Israel is often a bad actor in their region. It is not a defense to say that some of their opponents may be worse actors. No country should use the standards of the foulest terrorists to justify brutal standards of their own.

To be clear, I will support merciless hunting down and killing persons planning to harm the US. I insist on precision. Otherwise, you're fighting a Hydra.

[Anastasis 23718]

19 minutes ago, bernorange said:

To the surprise of no one, Senator Graham is broadcasting calls for war with Iran if things escalate.  Anyone think things are not going to escalate?

Well the world looks like a neocons wet dream ATM, with proxy war against Russia and another proxy war about to pop off with Iran, so of course graham is ecstatic. 

[babysdaddy 2731]

53 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Took you a few days longer than I thought to make it Biden’s fault 

Man, you post very insightful analysis of actual political races and then completely ignore or discount those articles that are actually relevant to what is going on.  Why? 

[RomaVicta 30647]

11 minutes ago, Captainant said:

USAF is happy to run those things into the ground so they can finally sundown the program - they really don't hang anymore in the modern threat environment

The USAF has always hated the low glamour of the A-10. If they don't want to fly them, turn the program over to the Army and Marine Corps. I recall Air Force generals saying the A-10 shouldn't be funded because the more expensive planes could do with interdiction what the A-10 did on the battlefield. Absurd when said decades ago. Still so.

The USAF doesn't want to risk the enormously expensive new airframes just as the Army doesn't like to lead with the expensive Abrams tanks. The A-10 will, IMHO, be viable for at least as long as we have helicopters over the battlefield. If choppers can survive, surely the warthog can.

I doubt the USAF is enthusiastic about unmanned fighters for the same reason: glamour. Pilots are an elite group of fighting men/women. It's a club most of us wish we had the stuff for. Still, there's no reason to maintain that club once technology renders its members a constraint on battlefield/sky performance.

Shit. I'm sidetracking this again. What should we name the A-10s? 

[InkaUtexas 26980]

So bye bye Bibi? Would be interesting to change him out as this is ongoing. 

 

[SmokeyTheBear 5569]

15 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Shit. I'm sidetracking this again. What should we name the A-10s? 

Warthogs?