Israel

[Gatorubet 30064]

44 minutes ago, bernorange said:

To the surprise of no one, Senator Graham is broadcasting calls for war with Iran if things escalate.  Anyone think things are not going to escalate?

Well , Iran already has our invasion plans from Mar-a-Lago, so…

[wildcat09 29187]

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So bye bye Bibi? Would be interesting to change him out as this is ongoing. 

 

It'll really be incredible if everyone in Israel is just so tired of his shit that he can't even use this situation to rally support.

[fuggled 576]

11 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

Please explain how on the Ukraine or Israel-Hamas thread people have been acting like Texags? Those few who have have been shot down pretty quickly by people like @atomheartbevo, @Brisketexan and quite a few more.

Really?  Just your run of the mill PSA regarding the infiltration of the US by Islamic supremacists.

23 hours ago, Macklemore said:

Hamas supporters celebrating in Dallas earlier today.

 

[InkaUtexas 25426]

So they want to go back to 1948? If I recall my history they got their asses kicked then. 

[Brisketexan 104465]

Here's a question: presuming that there is SOME rational/strategic thought behind Hamas's attack (for the sake of argument, let's assume that this was more than just flailing in violence by some people full of hate)....what is the play?

It's strategy 101.  When your opponent makes a move on the chess board, he's envisioning a counter-move(s) that eventually puts him in a more advantageous position.  Hamas just lurched forward with their Queen to take out a bishop and then a knight.  What is their longer-term vision -- how do they think this will get them closer to taking out the King?

Figure out what your opponent WANTS you to do, because that's something that will put you at a disadvantage.  Then, try to avoid doing that.  The hell of it is, sometimes, you can't avoid it; your opponent has put you in a spot where your next moves are all varying degrees of "bad moves" for you.  But you still game them out, and figure out what the least bad move is, and make it.

I confess to having no idea what the goal is here -- what move they actually want to provoke, and why/where they think it will get them.  And maybe this was an entirely irrational attack.  But the smart thing is to assume that it was strategic in some way, and figure out the play.

[fuggled 576]

1 hour ago, babysdaddy said:

I never saw this discussed anywhere...here's the story about Iran getting $6billion in a prisoner swap that won't be used for anything other than "food/agriculture"

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/10/us/politics/iran-us-prisoner-swap.html

 

This has been discussed.  Iran hasn't been allowed to access any of that money yet.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/iran-prisoner-swap-6-billion-spotlight-after-hamas-attacks-israel-2023-10-09/

[RomaVicta 29756]

27 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Warthogs?

Nah. Let's name them after presidents.

[cactusflinthead 27593]

47 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

many excellent takes

Purely by accident.

Last night was frustration with what appears to be an intractable problem.

Yeah, it's more accurate to say it started about a hundred years ago. @Ghost of LL and others pointed out the hyperbolic nature of my statement. I'll be realistic in the harsh light of a Tuesday. 

Losing Saturday soured my outlook on everything. 

[InkaUtexas 25426]

Just now, RomaVicta said:

Nah. Let's name them after presidents.

mythical creatures. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I confess to having no idea what the goal is here -- what move they actually want to provoke, and why/where they think it will get them.  And maybe this was an entirely irrational attack.  But the smart thing is to assume that it was strategic in some way, and figure out the play.

MY pet theory is that they are acting at the behest of Iran and Russia to drive a wedge between the US, Israel and Saudi Arabia. To the extent that Hamas is acting on behalf of "Palestine" it seems wholy in the context of ideological fanaticism (i.e. jihad) completely outside of the national interest. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[RomaVicta 29756]

Harpies!

['stache 21744]

40 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

So bye bye Bibi? Would be interesting to change him out as this is ongoing. 

 

This might offer an explanation. With Bibi going full fascists, maybe Hamas thought they could strike now and gain some Israeli support to have him removed. If that was the play, maybe they didn't expect the fighters to go full Rape of Nanjing. Or maybe they thought it would be effective. Or maybe it was just random timing like 9/11 felt, considering they knew they weren't going to topple the US but cause havoc that hadn't been seen before. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but shit is about to get more fucked up than usual. 

[Dnaguy 11740]

6 minutes ago, 'stache said:

This might offer an explanation. With Bibi going full fascists, maybe Hamas thought they could strike now and gain some Israeli support to have him removed. If that was the play, maybe they didn't expect the fighters to go full Rape of Nanjing. Or maybe they thought it would be effective. Or maybe it was just random timing like 9/11 felt, considering they knew they weren't going to topple the US but cause havoc that hadn't been seen before. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but shit is about to get more fucked up than usual. 

My thoughts worth absolutely nothing:

1.) The internal devision within Israel was at an all time high.

2.) The potential normalizing of relations with SA and Israel

3.) The war in Ukraine

4.) The yawn / non world response to Azerbaijan taking the NBK 

All contributed to this move with the hope to pull in another Middle eastern actor or some sort of pan Arab conflict.

 

 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Dnaguy

[chainsaw 9831]

2 minutes ago, 'stache said:

they didn't expect the fighters to go full Rape of Nanjing.

The average age of them is like 17? I don't think there was much of a "strategy" other than to take every opportunity to do horrific things to people they were radicalized into hating. One of the few parts of the attack one could call "strategic" would be the taking of hostages.

[Macklemore 2898]

34 minutes ago, fuggled said:

Really?  Just your run of the mill PSA regarding the infiltration of the US by Islamic supremacists.

So these people are good Americans and we should be happy to have them and more of their like come here in the future. Wake the fuck up. 
 

Fuck these assholes and the others like them that have come to our country. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Macklemore

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

24 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Figure out what your opponent WANTS you to do, because that's something that will put you at a disadvantage.  Then, try to avoid doing that.  The hell of it is, sometimes, you can't avoid it; your opponent has put you in a spot where your next moves are all varying degrees of "bad moves" for you.  But you still game them out, and figure out what the least bad move is, and make it.

I confess to having no idea what the goal is here -- what move they actually want to provoke, and why/where they think it will get them.  And maybe this was an entirely irrational attack.  But the smart thing is to assume that it was strategic in some way, and figure out the play.

 One more thought on this - as Americans we tend to bake the assumptions of the post-war international order of Great Powers into our thinking about places and people that are not full participants of that order. As a result we forget that leaders engaging in very thoroughly gamed out, complex, evidence-based data-driven high level strategic thought before they do things that could disrupt the status quo, is a new phenomenon more or less unique to our time and place, and not universal outside of great powers.
I am NOT saying that Hamas leaders definitely aren't smart or wise or rational actors acting on the results of a cost/benefit calculation. However, we can't assume they are in the same way that we can assume that about the senior leaders of great powers who arrive into their roles as part of a vast bureaucratic meritocracy with inputs from national popularity contests.

I'm sure that what Hamas is doing works for Iran and Russia. I am sure it does not benefit Palestine. I am also not sure that matters, or that we should assume Hamas thinks it does. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[Ted Lange 15991]

16 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

So these people are good Americans and we should be happy to have them and more of their like come here in the future. Wake the fuck up. 
 

Fuck these assholes and the others like them that have come to our country. 

Round them up along with the folks that openly support Nazis? 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

39 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Here's a question: presuming that there is SOME rational/strategic thought behind Hamas's attack (for the sake of argument, let's assume that this was more than just flailing in violence by some people full of hate)....what is the play?

I think it's out of desperation. They've come to believe that they'll never live freely in their homeland and that more and more of their land will be taken from them. Maybe they just don't see a future worth living in and their only goal is to enact as much pain and suffering for the group they blame for their hopeless lot in life.

[LCHorn 2582]

16 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

 One more thought on this - as Americans we tend to bake the assumptions of the post-war international order of Great Powers into our thinking about places and people that are not full participants of that order. As a result we forget that leaders engaging in very thoroughly gamed out, complex, evidence-based data-driven high level strategic thought before they do things that could disrupt the status quo, is a new phenomenon more or less unique to our time and place, and not universal outside of great powers.
I am NOT saying that Hamas leaders definitely aren't smart or wise or rational actors acting on the results of a cost/benefit calculation. However, we can't assume they are in the same way that we can assume that about the senior leaders of great powers who arrive into their roles as part of a vast bureaucratic meritocracy with inputs from national popularity contests.

To Bozo's point (and in reference to the "why now, what's there to gain?" question); from studying history there's always the possibility it's just a weird result and not necessarily driven by greater strategic thinking.  Say, for example, maybe Iran made possible future payments dependent on "performance".  Maybe Iran actually told them to NOT do something last year because they were overwhelmed with their own protests and felt extra vulnerable and this is just a delayed action from that.  Maybe Hamas is beset by internal power struggles and going to war was a way for leadership there to reassert control. 

I've been listening to the BBC Empire podcasts and there's quite a few milestone moments in history that could have gone the other way but for something unexpected. 

[fuggled 576]

15 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

So these people are good Americans and we should be happy to have them and more of their like come here in the future. Wake the fuck up. 

Fuck these assholes and the others like them that have come to our country. 

Whoa whoa whoa, don't be asking me to go woke.  I'm not going to let you groom me.

What point are you trying to make exactly?  That there are ignorant knuckleheads from every race, religion and nationality in existence?  I'm in full agreement.  You provided more evidence than you realize of that. 

Is there more to it than that?  Do you expect me to look at those 4 teenagers and believe all Palestinians or all Muslims are out to get me?  That they're organizing an invasion?  That we should take steps to bar them from this country based on their religion or their political beliefs?  What are you advocating for?  Do you just want me to hate the people you hate?  If you get it figured out, please explain it to the rest of us.

Those 4 teenagers should be ashamed of their behavior.  I hope they have reasonable parents, mentors or faith leaders in their lives that will hope them see that.  But meeting hate with hate isn't going to solve anything.  Mama drummed two lessons into my head at an early age:  "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem."  You seem committed and content to remain part of the problem.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

4 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

To Bozo's point (and in reference to the "why now, what's there to gain?" question); from studying history there's always the possibility it's just a weird result and not necessarily driven by greater strategic thinking.  Say, for example, maybe Iran made possible future payments dependent on "performance".  Maybe Iran actually told them to NOT do something last year because they were overwhelmed with their own protests and felt extra vulnerable and this is just a delayed action from that.  Maybe Hamas is beset by internal power struggles and going to war was a way for leadership there to reassert control. 

I've been listening to the BBC Empire podcasts and there's quite a few milestone moments in history that could have gone the other way but for something unexpected. 

I don't think it's a coincidence that this happened after Bibi put together a far-right government and placed people in very powerful positions who believe it is Israel's divine right to occupy all disputed territories.

[Macklemore 2898]

4 minutes ago, fuggled said:

Whoa whoa whoa, don't be asking me to go woke.  I'm not going to let you groom me.

What point are you trying to make exactly?  That there are ignorant knuckleheads from every race, religion and nationality in existence?  I'm in full agreement.  You provided more evidence than you realize of that. 

Is there more to it than that?  Do you expect me to look at those 4 teenagers and believe all Palestinians or all Muslims are out to get me?  That they're organizing an invasion?  That we should take steps to bar them from this country based on their religion or their political beliefs?  What are you advocating for?  Do you just want me to hate the people you hate?  If you get it figured out, please explain it to the rest of us.

Those 4 teenagers should be ashamed of their behavior.  I hope they have reasonable parents, mentors or faith leaders in their lives that will hope them see that.  But meeting hate with hate isn't going to solve anything.  Mama drummed two lessons into my head at an early age:  "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem."  You seem committed and content to remain part of the problem.

Don’t import and bring these shits and their conflict with Jews to our country by permitting immigration from where these bastards come from. That’s a start. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Macklemore

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

7 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

I've been listening to the BBC Empire podcasts

It’s so good

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, Macklemore said:

Don’t import and bring this shit and conflict to our country by permitting immigration from where these bastards come from. That’s a start. 

Alright, you’re the first one that has to leave though.

[David Dennison 18608]

Just now, Macklemore said:

Don’t import and bring this shit and conflict to our country by permitting immigration from where these bastards come from. That’s a start. 

How do you know those kids aren't Americans?

[Macklemore 2898]

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Alright, you’re the first one that has to leave though.

I’m not a fucking Arab, was born in this country and am a Christian and not a Muslim and don’t hate Jews. Thanks for playing.

[Foosters 17691]

18 minutes ago, Ted Lange said:

Round them up along with the folks that openly support Nazis? 

Macklemore:

[David Dennison 18608]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

I’m not a fucking Arab, was born in this country and am a Christian and not a Muslim and don’t hate Jews. Thanks for playing.

Those kids in the clip might have been born in this country. Also, you might want to read up on the history of Christians and Jews.

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

3 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

I’m not a fucking Arab, was born in this country and am a Christian and not a Muslim and don’t hate Jews. Thanks for playing.

It doesn't matter. You're brown and you've got to go. We've had enough of you people.

[bernorange 8346]

Just now, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

It doesn't matter. You're brown and you've got to go. We've had enough of you people.

[Ted Lange 15991]

17 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Don’t import and bring these shits and their conflict with Jews to our country by permitting immigration from where these bastards come from. That’s a start. 

So kick out the Nazis in the country? 

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

Just now, Ted Lange said:

So kick out the Nazis in the country? 

He's talking about the Muslim Nazis, not the Christian ones. Those are fine people.

[Smax 3799]

2 hours ago, RomaVicta said:

Anyone doubt that the embattled criminal enterprise that is the GOP would happily start a war with anyone to "unify" the people" and change the domestic focus?

They could give a shit about who dies, what it costs, or how much it harms the remaining shreds of the republic.

They could give a shit. They should give a shit. But they don't. 

If they are willing to sacrifice lives to save their own skins, shouldn't they pay for that abhorrent crime with their own skins? I'm debating whether I mean that literally. It's a close call.

 

 

Similarly related but had a conversation turn the other night after a few bottles of wine and the question was asked, would a 9/11 type event today unify the country like it did the post 2000 election division? We had 4 no and 3 yes

[Anastasis 23375]

The majority of Arab Americans (and the world wide diaspora) are Catholics and Orthodox. Less than a quarter in the US are Muslims. Most fled the region in various waves to flee violence and persecution from both the Muslims and the Israelis. And those wounds still run deep, two or three generations later. So before the xenophobes start riding around in trucks looking for some Arabs to harass, maybe consider they their families have been worshipping Jesus…some in the same tongue he used…for a multiple longer than this country has existed. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

49 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I'm sure that what Hamas is doing works for Iran and Russia. I am sure it does not benefit Palestine. I am also not sure that matters, or that we should assume Hamas thinks it does. 

Yeah, that was my thought when you posted your "pet theory" above.  I don't see what's ultimately in it for Hamas.  But, as you imply, maybe that's not part of the calculus.

[jimmyjazz 45513]

21 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Alright, you’re the first one that has to leave though.

Yeah, that was a head-spinner.

[wildcat09 29187]

Nobody in the history of the world has ever thought "I'm one of the good ones and they'll see that and let me stay" harder than Icono does. That dude just keeps buying more and more leopards and he keeps training them to attack brown folks, and despite all of us repeatedly pointing it out he can't even conceive of the possibility of those leopards attacking him when he lets them off the leash. 

[LCHorn 2582]

2 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Nobody in the history of the world has ever thought "I'm one of the good ones and they'll see that and let me stay" harder than Icono does. That dude just keeps buying more and more leopards and he keeps training them to attack brown folks, and despite all of us repeatedly pointing it out he can't even conceive of the possibility of those leopards attacking him when he lets them off the leash. 

Wait, Icono=Macklemore?  Does everyone know this?

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, LCHorn said:

Wait, Icono=Macklemore?  Does everyone know this?

Yes. Except for him. He has a speshul brain.

[DixonHur 11074]

Stop thinking about what's in it for Hamas.  

Hamas are the pawns, not the player.  The players are Russia, Iran, KSA...and likely China. 

The goal is to destabilize the West.

Wouldn't shock me to see an escalation that involved China invading Taiwan and/or N. Korea going after S. Korea.

The thinner they can spread the US military, the better.  Not to mention the drain on America's financial resources.

I think this is way bigger than Hamas vs Israel.

[Macklemore 2898]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The majority of Arab Americans (and the world wide diaspora) are Catholics and Orthodox. Less than a quarter in the US are Muslims. Most fled the region in various waves to flee violence and persecution from both the Muslims and the Israelis. And those wounds still run deep, two or three generations later. So before the xenophobes start riding around in trucks looking for some Arabs to harass, maybe consider they their families have been worshipping Jesus…some in the same tongue he used…for a multiple longer than this country has existed. 

You’re correct in that historically immigrants from the Arab world to the US were mostly Christian. Most Lebanese or Syrian Christians don’t identify as Arabs but rather say they are the descendants of the Phoenicians and Assyrians. Yes, they speak Arabic but they’re not Arabs. The majority of Arab immigrants since 1965 Immigration Act are Muslims.

[Anastasis 23375]

If I am Taiwan right now I got my head on a fucking swivel. 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, Macklemore said:

Christian. Most Lebanese or Syrian Christians don’t identify as Arabs

Well I can tell you based on significant first hand experience that this is total horseshit. 

[SmokeyTheBear 5562]

Just now, Anastasis said:

If I am Taiwan right now I got my head on a fucking swivel. 

Not yet. Not until the US is formerly engaged and entrenched in this new conflict. It'll make it harder for us to reposition at that point. 

[Macklemore 2898]

10 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Well I can tell you based on significant first hand experience that this is total horseshit. 

Sorry that’s not been my experience.  Ask a Maronite, Assyrian or Copt what their heritage is. They’ll say they’re Christians and talk about their ancient liturgical languages as well as history of their people before being consumed my Islamic invaders before they any claim on being Arab. In fact, some consider it an insult. Thats a big a reason why Maronites have French first names, speak French and stress their connection to Europe. It’s to distance themselves from Arab culture.

Edited October 10, 2023 by Macklemore

[wildcat09 29187]

3 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

You’re correct in that historically immigrants from the Arab world to the US were mostly Christian. Most Lebanese or Syrian Christians don’t identify as Arabs but rather say they are the descendants of the Phoenicians and Assyrians. Yes, they speak Arabic but they’re not Arabs. The majority of Arab immigrants since 1965 Immigration Act are Muslims.

I've mentioned before how much serious thought and effort some of the craziest conspiracy theorists will put into rationalizing their beliefs. This is a different context obviously, but this is a good illustration of what I mean. Icono has put more time into rationalizing and aligning all of his various and conflicting racial anxieties and hatreds than the biggest nerds have put into playing Skyrim or Zelda, and the output of all of that effort is this kind of completely deranged nonsense.

[InkaUtexas 25426]

4 minutes ago, SmokeyTheBear said:

Not yet. Not until the US is formerly engaged and entrenched in this new conflict. It'll make it harder for us to reposition at that point. 

I don't see us needing to pull assets other than a carrier group that was already in the Mediterranean. We have a lot of shit in the region still. 

Oh, and the carrier and battlegroup was going to do a port of call in France, so I am sure the sailors are pissed. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

10 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Wait, Icono=Macklemore?  Does everyone know this?

Yes.  It raises a good point, though -- we need to publish a sock database.

For instance, I'm ctj.

[RomaVicta 29756]

1 hour ago, Macklemore said:

So these people are good Americans and we should be happy to have them and more of their like come here in the future. Wake the fuck up. 
 

Fuck these assholes and the others like them that have come to our country. 

They're assholes, no doubt. Young guys. Still, I'm more worried that these guys are allowed in my country. From similar US demonstrations:

 

[Oh, sorry, the middle guys are ISIS terrorists. Don't know how I could have got them confused with the red-blooded Americans.]

 

33 minutes ago, fuggled said:

Those 4 teenagers should be ashamed of their behavior.  I hope they have reasonable parents, mentors or faith leaders in their lives that will hope them see that.  But meeting hate with hate isn't going to solve anything.  Mama drummed two lessons into my head at an early age:  "Two wrongs don't make a right" and "You're either part of the solution or part of the problem."  You seem committed and content to remain part of the problem.

Sensible response alert! Head for the bunker over at DT.

30 minutes ago, Macklemore said:

Don’t import and bring these shits and their conflict with Jews to our country by permitting immigration from where these bastards come from. That’s a start. 

Yes. Those four teenagers could bring down the US any day now.

TLDR: Fuck you.

[Js1 85056]

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Yes.  It raises a good point, though -- we need to publish a sock database.

For instance, I'm ctj.