Israel

[SydneyCarton 47809]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

Excellent, I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph. 

I haven't expressed this much, but I was thinking about this earlier, and my sad suspicion is that Bibi was written off the hostages as lost to further his offensive, and the anguish of the common Israeli. Because he's a piece of shit. If he cared about hostages, he wouldn't be bombing Gaza.

[Brian Fantana 6654]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

what should Israel do that will deter future events, make every hostile nation around them second guess doing something similar themselves and project strength, and happen in a timely enough fashion that a ton of HAMAS pieces of shit won’t escape via their networks? I have no idea. I’m d not think anyone has an idea.which leads me back to my point; if everything above can’t be met to satisfaction, the answers seem to be,  “don’t do that.” Which may as well be don’t do anything. Which I view as an unlikely bordering on impossible reaction.

Here's the problem I have with that argument:

Everyone keeps asking "Well, what should Israel do in the wake of Hamas' actions?" While it's a valid question, and an important one to be sure, one of the problems surrounding this whole conflict is that the shoe is never on the other foot.

What I mean by that is no one ever asks "Well, what should Palestinians do in the wake of people being shot to shit or beaten every Ramadan/March of Return or their homes in the West Bank being taken away by some dipshit from Brooklyn, while some Kyle Rittenhouse ass non-military/police Israeli settler is standing there watching and laughing with his body armor and rifle because the Israeli government is still doing ethnic cleansing out in the open?" No one cares to ask that question, because the answer is always "deal with it or die" basically.

No one in the media ever, and I mean ever, brings on any Israeli official and takes them to task over their government's continuous and unjustifiable actions in the West Bank and Gaza, while they will happily bring any Palestinian on and scream "DO YOU CONDEMN?" in their face over and over again, as evidenced by the Palestinian ambassador's BBC interview.

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Do you think every Israeli soldier is as fucked up and malicious as that guy? The 650k Isralies that headed back to Israel and have been called up to Military service? Are they all that guy, in your estimation? Because that's what you're implying. And if you believe that, fine, but then you're no different than other posters who insist that every Palestininan is the same as HAMAS, and that all Palestinians are the same as the invaders who killed and abducted Israelis. 

Both sides have, and continue to do awful fucking shit. I recognize that. You apologize for one, while ignoring the other. 

Brother, no one said that. No one. You're literally just making it up in your head. I pointed out a specific instance as evidence that there is very little outcry when the shoe is on the other foot, from an atrocities standpoint. You responded by first just flat out denying that it happened at all, and then whatever this shit is.

Not a single damned person has apologized once for Hamas in this thread.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As an American, I think that we should first concern ourselves with what we do. A few thoughts, stop dumping endless arms and military funding into the region (including both Israel and Arab countries). That might be a good place to start. 

1.) Nice dodge.

2.) That's an interesting idea. But I don't think Hamas is getting their weapons from the United States. So doesn't this just fuck over Israel?

[F250 28659]

18 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Who’s saying Israel shouldn’t do anything? No one is making that argument 

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

[bolverk 29360]

Looks like the deadline is in about 30 minutes. I sure hope the elderly, the infirm, and all the children make it.

 

NYTimes article on some 500-600 US citizens stuck in the Gaza Strip with no way to get out.

Quote

 

On Friday, the Israel Defense Forces said civilians in the northern part of Gaza should evacuate to the south, “for their own safety and protection.”

“I feel like I’ve been abandoned by my country,” said Lena Beseiso, 57, who lives in Salt Lake City, Utah, and is caught in Gaza with her husband, two of her daughters and a 10-year-old grandson. “We’re American citizens and we’re not being treated as American citizens.”

John Kirby, a spokesman for the National Security Council, said that Israel’s blockade was for now preventing the American government from transporting its citizens out of Gaza. He said that the White House was in talks with Israel and Egypt about the safe passage of civilians out of Gaza, including Americans, but that no breakthrough had been reached.

“Right now, they — they can’t leave. So, we would have no physical means of permitting that transit out,” Mr. Kirby said during a press briefing on Thursday. “And so, that’s why we’re so actively having conversations with the Israelis and the Egyptians about a safe passage corridor so that people who want to leave can leave.”

U.S. officials estimated that 500 to 600 American citizens were in Gaza.

For now, there is nothing to do but wait and hope and pray. Ms. Beseiso and her family, who are in Gaza visiting relatives, tried to flee on Tuesday, she said, but the Israeli military bombed the Rafah crossing to Egypt while they were there, shuttering it. The family was told to return to Gaza for safety, and Ms. Beseiso is now sheltering in a building with her 87-year-old mother-in-law. The family has no water or electricity, she said.

 

 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

1.) Nice dodge.

2.) That's an interesting idea. But I don't think Hamas is getting their weapons from the United States. So doesn't this just fuck over Israel?

It's not a dodge, its a recognition of what we can control directly wrt our role. Israel is extremely capable. They have the a substantial military industry (which we helped to fund/build). 

[hobbes2702 12771]

3 minutes ago, F250 said:

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

Fucking a

[F250 28659]

12 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

I heard an interview yesterday on NPR that mentioned that normally there is a public outcry in these situations for Israel to negotiate for the hostages but that doesn't seem to be the case this time. Emotions are so high that there appears to a general sentiment that the hostages are considered a causality of war.

[bernorange 8346]

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

[C-Man 26992]

29 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The only cheering I have seen thus far is for Hamas.  To the remarkable contrary, the comments from Israel, including from people with family members currently (if they are lucky alive and) held hostage by Hamas, has been almost uniformly empathetic toward Gaza's civilian population.

If only Bibi and his cronies held that same empathy. You can be sure of one thing -- Bibi will choose the cruelest course of action.

 

17 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I stand with Israel so long as it is respecting the human rights of civilians. That means Israel doesn't get to just shout "human shield" in bad faith while slaughtering innocent people. No, it's not justifiable if those civilians have offensive opinions or political leanings, either.

By the way, are they not just a little bit concerned that their own hostages could be killed by these indiscriminate bombings??

Bibi likely doesn't give a shit because he is a piece of shit. I'm sure he views their deaths as a "necessary evil" that finally gives him the go-ahead to do what he wants to do -- level Gaza.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Here's the problem I have with that argument:

Everyone keeps asking "Well, what should Israel do in the wake of Hamas' actions?" While it's a valid question, and an important one to be sure, one of the problems surrounding this whole conflict is that the shoe is never on the other foot.

What I mean by that is no one ever asks "Well, what should Palestinians do in the wake of people being shot to shit or beaten every Ramadan/March of Return or their homes in the West Bank being taken away by some dipshit from Brooklyn, while some Kyle Rittenhouse ass non-military/police Israeli settler is standing there watching and laughing with his body armor and rifle because the Israeli government is still doing ethnic cleansing out in the open?" No one cares to ask that question, because the answer is always "deal with it or die" basically.

No one in the media ever, and I mean ever, brings on any Israeli official and takes them to task over their government's continuous and unjustifiable actions in the West Bank and Gaza, while they will happily bring any Palestinian on and scream "DO YOU CONDEMN?" in their face over and over again, as evidenced by the Palestinian ambassador's BBC interview.

So Media in general fucking sucks. Ok. Thanks to 9/11 and screeching evangelists here, and in Israel, no one wants to report fairly. You act like this is a hard fucking sell for me? Because it is not. You're talking about one of the many, fucked up, systemic issues of our culture, media, and the kind of thing that is out of control and probably unfixable in the short and medium term. you're talking about an injustice that spans decades, and European and American bias. you're talking about a fucked up big picture. No argument form me, I'd love a better, unbiased news media, we all know how fucked the world is right now with extremism fueled by the meida. I 100% agree with you.

But that's big picure that's fucked.  I'm talking about small picture, what does isreal do after last week RIGHT NOW? You're talking about how fucked up Climate Change is, and how it's ruinous and doesn't get proper and fair attention in our culture. I'm talking about the house that is on fire from a California wildfire. Just now. Just this instance. 

Quote

Brother, no one said that. No one. You're literally just making it up in your head. I pointed out a specific instance as evidence that there is very little outcry when the shoe is on the other foot, from an atrocities standpoint. You responded by first just flat out denying that it happened at all, and then whatever this shit is.

Not a single damned person has apologized once for Hamas in this thread.

I made the comment about Israeli soliders aren't giggling, and you AND Fresh Breath posted the same shit of an asshole Israeli sniper. yes, I hand't seen it before. Chalk it up to your paragraph and my response above. That being said, I have since clairifed that "EVERY SOLIDER" and you haven't addressed my statement, you're saying I'm making it up in my head. But I haven't seen you or her address the concept of how you feel about every military member being evil. You just posted a throwawy video of one guy, as if that proved it, and won't address it. That's not in my head ,and you're just NOW offering up clarification of what you were trying to illustrate, when previously you posted a link, used a meme to mock me, and after you called me a savage who enjoys watching people get dismembered. That failure of communication is on YOU. Because until your last post, it absolutely is no different than saying every isreli is evil and murderous. Which is what you are so incensed and eager to accuse me of regarding Palestinians.

Again, do you think EVERY solider is that guy in the video? I've got multiple days and and multiple posts on mulitple threads admitting Israel has oppressed and done horrible fucking shit, for decades, as well as ripping other motherfuckers for equatling all Palestinians for HAMAS. 

Yes, no one has apologized for Hamas, and they shouldn't. But some posters are more than happy to try and explain their actions. I can't explain anyone's fucking actions here. It's almost like the whole region is a fucking mess spanning decades and no one knows how to fix it. I'll add that organized religion is fucking stupid and these days generally seems like an excuse to hurt other people. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[G650 13990]

14 minutes ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

 

Michael gonna get a workout in this thread.

[hobbes2702 12771]

1 minute ago, SydneyCarton said:

Yes, no one has apologized for Hamas, and they shouldn't. But some posters are more than happy to try and explain their actions. I can't explain anyone's fucking actions here. It's almost like the whole region is a fucking mess spanning decades and no one knows how to fix it.

This paragraph is literally just lamenting against the context of the situation.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

This paragraph is literally just lamenting against the context of the situation.

I'm not sure what you mean here, the context of the situation. But I'm lamenting fucking all of this shit. 

Edited October 13, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[jimmyjazz 45513]

9 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Bibi likely doesn't give a shit because he is a piece of shit. I'm sure he views their deaths as a "necessary evil" that finally gives him the go-ahead to do what he wants to do -- level Gaza.

Yeah, he's a sociopath.  Sounds familiar.  He probably thinks hostages are "losers".

[hobbes2702 12771]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I'm not sure what you mean here, the context of the situation. But I'm lamenting fucking all of this shit. 

Why are you upset that posters are trying to explain the actions of Hamas? How else should people attempt to understand why this is happening?

[bolverk 29360]

37 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

The only cheering I have seen thus far is for Hamas.  To the remarkable contrary, the comments from Israel, including from people with family members currently (if they are lucky alive and) held hostage by Hamas, has been almost uniformly empathetic toward Gaza's civilian population.

 

It's happened at least twice before, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't be happening now.

Quote

 

Israelis gather on hillsides to watch and cheer as military drops bombs on Gaza
People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive

As the sun begins to sink over the Mediterranean, groups of Israelis gather each evening on hilltops close to the Gaza border to cheer, whoop and whistle as bombs rain down on people in a hellish warzone a few miles away.

Old sofas, garden chairs, battered car seats and upturned crates provide seating for the spectators. On one hilltop, a swing has been attached to the branches of a pine tree, allowing its occupant to sway gently in the breeze. Some bring bottles of beer or soft drinks and snacks.

On Saturday, a group of men huddle around a shisha pipe. Nearly all hold up smartphones to record the explosions or to pose grinning, perhaps with thumbs up, for selfies against a backdrop of black smoke.

Despite reports that millions of Israelis are living in terror of Hamas rockets, they don't deter these hilltop war watchers whose proximity to Gaza puts them within range of the most rudimentary missiles. Some bring their children.

In the border town of Sderot, which has been struck by countless missiles from the Gaza Strip in recent years, one family gathers on a top-floor balcony, draped with an Israeli flag and banner of the army's legendary Golani Brigade. A house with a war view may even command a premium price these days.

An atmosphere of anticipatory excitement grows as dusk falls, in the expectation that Hamas militants will increase rocket fire after breaking their Ramadan fast, and the Israeli military will respond with force.

The thud of shellfire, flash of an explosion and pall of smoke are greeted with exclamations of approval. "What a beauty," says one appreciative spectator.

Shimrit Peretz, 19, has come with her off-duty soldier boyfriend, Raz Sason, whose army-issue assault rifle is slung across his shoulders.

"We come to look at the bombing," Peretz says, adding that this is their fourth visit to the hilltop. They plan to stay several hours: "It's interesting." The pair have brought a backpack filled with bottles of water and bags of crisps.

Peretz says that she doesn't worry about the Palestinian civilians caught in the bombing; Sason disagrees. Despite his concern for the innocents caught in the assault, the young conscript soldier wishes he was with his comrades across the border in Gaza. "I'd like to be going in, to help my country and help the soldiers inside," he says.

Given the dramatic views, media crews are coming to the area to cover the fighting. On a nearby hilltop, an ugly scene develops as a group of Israeli men threaten a photographer, accusing him of being a "leftist". We are warned against asking for interviews, as another cheer goes up.

 

Quote

 

Israelis Watch Bombs Drop on Gaza From Front-Row Seats

Last Wednesday night, as he stood on a hilltop outside the Israeli town of Sderot and watched the bombardment of Gaza on the plain below, a Danish newspaper reporter snapped an iPhone photo of about a dozen locals who cheered on their military from plastic chairs while eating popcorn.

Allan Sorensen, a veteran Middle East correspondent for Denmark’s Kristeligt Dagblad, then uploaded the image to Twitter with a sardonic caption that described the macabre scene as “Sderot cinema.”

The image of the Israeli spectators was taken after 9 p.m. local time on Wednesday, the reporter said, about the same time that what was intended to be a “precision strike” from Israel’s military killed at least eight of their Palestinian neighbors, seated in similar plastic chairs at a beachside cafe in Gaza, waiting to watch the World Cup semifinal between Argentina and the Netherlands.

As his image reverberated around the social network, where it was shared more than 10,000 times, the reporter was surprised by the response. It was, he said in a telephone interview from Israel, “nothing new.” Similar scenes, of Israeli spectators gathered on the high ground above Gaza to view the destruction below, were documented in a Times of London article and a video report from Denmark’s TV2 during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.

Explaining that he has also previously witnessed Palestinians cheering news of bombings that killed Israelis, Mr. Sorensen said that in a war, “this is what happens.” Civilians and fighters on both sides, he said, “go through a process of dehumanizing the enemy.”

Despite the willingness of some residents to stand in the open watching the war unfold, Sderot is well within range of rockets launched by Islamist militants in Gaza and has been hit in recent days.

When he was a candidate for the American presidency in 2008, then-Senator Barack Obama visited the town and saluted “the brave citizens” of Sderot while standing in front of a collection of spent rockets that had been fired at them from Gaza. He was also presented with an “I Love Sderot” T-shirt that channeled the dark humor of the residents, with the image of a heart on its front pierced by a rocket.

While some partisans of Israel on Twitter accused the Danish reporter of fabrication, the same scene, captured in photographs by several other journalists in recent days, was also witnessed by Mr. Sorensen’s colleague Nikolaj Krak, who wrote: “The hill has been transformed into something that most closely resembles the front row of a reality war theater. It offers a direct view of the densely populated Gaza Strip. People have dragged camping chairs and sofas to the top of the hill. Several sit with crackling bags of popcorn, while others smoke hookahs and talk cheerfully.”

When the bombs find their targets, Mr. Krak reported, “cheers break out on the hill, followed by solid applause.”

Mr. Sorensen, who stressed that he has “a complete understanding of what the people of Sderot have been going through for 14 years,” attributed the particularly vitriolic response to his Twitter report to the climate in Israel since three young religious students were kidnapped and murdered in the occupied West Bank last month. The journalist called the “extreme incitement to violence from very right-wing Israeli groups unprecedented” in the many years he has been reporting from the region.

An Israeli blogger, David Sheen, reported that a far-right rally in Jerusalem on Monday was marked by calls to kill Arabs and send Jews opposed to the bombardment to Gaza.

 

 

[Dahobbs 17420]

46 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

I think their job is probably to build a boat. I’m not saying that’s easy. It’s obviously not. But that should be the job.

There is some middle ground between mass migration or bombing and not doing anything. 

I'd argue that the implication hasn't been merely to build a boat, but to build one that has a bunch of holes in the bottom of it, moves very slowly, and may sink as soon as its placed in the water. Maybe Israel can win a war with Hamas blindfolded and with both hands tied behind its back, but I wouldn't call it a realistic option. 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Why are you upset that posters are trying to explain the actions of Hamas? How else should people attempt to understand why this is happening?

 

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Lets look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

Lets analyize a similar sentence structure commonly seen on this partiuclarly forum and 100% denounced by regular cloak room posters, justifiably: "I'm not a racist, but...."

So, I guess you have an opporuntiy here. Why don't you explain, so we can all understand, the reasons so we can all understand Hamas forcibly entering the homes, parks, and public places of Israel and kidnapping and mudering their citizens, including women, children, and the elderly. Please, explain that to me. We all want to understand. 

I'm certainly admitting that Israel has done horrible shit, is currently run by horrible fucking people, and they're probably about to do exactly what Hamas wants and do the most horrible shit we've seen to date. 

And for the record, I'm not really upset that anyone tries to defend any side of this, or how we got here. But when I expressed a different opinion of what I think Israel will do next, even though I think it's a huge mistake, I was attacked form multiple sides and implicitly and explicitly called a piece of shit. 

[bolverk 29360]

@Tonesky 2 days ago

 

[Smax 3799]

48 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

As an American, I think that we should first concern ourselves with what we do. A few thoughts, stop dumping endless arms and military funding into the region (including both Israel and Arab countries). That might be a good place to start. 

 

 

Yeahhhhh if only it was that simple

[Tonesky 907]

4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

@Tonesky 2 days ago

To paraphrase Cheeto, there are pieces of shit on both sides.

[bolverk 29360]

1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

To paraphrase Cheeto, there are pieces of shit on both sides.

Yep. And all those pieces of shit are driving the bus there. None of us should lose sight of our humanity. That's how and why this situation is what it is. 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Yep. And all those pieces of shit are driving the bus there. None of us should lose sight of our humanity. That's how and why this situation is what it is. 

No shit. Apparently there are 5-600 American citizens trapped in Gaza right now, and there is nowhere to go. Pretty sure that's part of Bibi's collateral damage as well, I think he knows he can get away with it at this point. 

['stache 21743]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

That's been the case for 75 years and is a root cause of everything. Israel has accomplished this between skirmishes so when shit hits the fan its Israel defending itself against cockroaches who got guns and fought back.

Edited October 13, 2023 by 'stache

[Guest]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

This. I don't think I have seen anyone here advocate Israel just ignore the attacks by Hamas. What many are questioning is the hyperfocus on the cause for Israeli retaliation and calling for the IDF to institute rules of engagement that adhere to international rules of war. Primarily the part about protecting civilians that are up shit creek without a paddle.

When some people throw out phrases like "a population has to be responsible for its government" or quoting dumb shit kids say it sounds like they are justifying that Palestinian civilians do not qualify for basic humanitarian rights and should be treated no different than cockroaches.

From my point of view, Israel is justified in waging war on Hamas. There isn't a need to the fan flames by dehumanizing Palestinians and Israel must implement rules of engagement and take every step necessary to avoid harming civilians. There is no need to reveal in the atrocities of the Hamas, that's for revenge porn fiends that get high off the thought of seeing mass uncontrolled violence.

Well I'm sure Hamas will present themselves to openly fight the Isrealis on a traditional battlefield, given they are outmatched at every level.

One side is warning civilians to leave.  The other chooses to use them as shields.

 

Edited October 13, 2023 by slorch

[hobbes2702 12771]

 

48 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Let’s look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

That’s on you for thinking historical context is apology.

[hobbes2702 12771]

25 minutes ago, slorch said:

Well I'm sure Hamas will present themselves to openly fight the Isrealis on a traditional battlefield, given they are outmatched at every level.

One side is warning civilians to leave.  The other chooses to use them as shields.

 

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

[SydneyCarton 47809]

13 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

"I'm not defending Hamas, but..."

Who's hands is the blood really on, Hobbes? You tell us. Because most people here freely admit it's on both.

Hamas is literally advising Gaza citizens that Isreli's warning for people to evacuate to the South is psychological warfare to force a migration to leave their homes. They're telling them not to evacuate. In many places, as being reported on MSNBC, they're actively PREVENTING citizens from evacuating to the South. Who's hands are the blood on?

Edited October 13, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[bolverk 29360]

It looks like Hamas also murdered at least 18 Arabs/Palestinians with dozens more wounded and several missing (maybe also kidnapped) last Saturday.

If nothing else, read the last four lines and recall all the recent comments about how all the Palestinians are irredeemable and brainwashed. Also, Johnny Sack's blatant racism in calling the Palestinian people "vermin."

 

Quote

 

Arab citizens of Israel were not spared in the Hamas-led massacres.

The family of Awad Darawsheh spent five agonizing days waiting for news. Mr. Darawsheh, a paramedic in his 20s, had been working at a music festival in southern Israel when Palestinian gunmen stormed in, firing at fleeing attendees and dragging others away as hostages.

On Thursday night, his family received word: Mr. Darawsheh had been shot dead during the attack, said Ashraf Ayoub, who oversaw him in the United Hatzalah emergency medical services organization.

Mr. Darawsheh joined a grim list: He was one of more than 100 killed in what appears to have been one of the worst massacres of the sweeping surprise attack launched by Hamas on Saturday. And his death underscores how the terror did not spare Israel’s Arab citizens.

About two million of Israel’s citizens are Arab. Many identify as Palestinian or share close family ties with those in the West Bank and Gaza.

Arab citizens hailing from Bedouin communities scattered across the south appear to have been particularly hard hit. Ata Abu Mdegem, the mayor of the Bedouin Arab city of Rahat in southern Israel, said that he knew of at least 18 Arab citizens from southern Israel who had been killed since the assault began. Some were killed when Palestinian rockets struck their towns, many of which lack safe rooms or sufficient public bomb shelters, he said, and others while working in the farms of towns near the Gaza Strip.

“We’re still in shock,” Mr. Abu Mdegem said. “There’s still so many unanswered questions and confusion.”

He said dozens of Arab citizens were wounded and several others were still missing and feared captured by Hamas.

Ali Abu Sabeelah’s cousin Amer, 25, is one of them. Amer, a construction worker, was in the southern city of Sderot when Hamas gunmen attacked.

“We eventually found his car. But he was gone,” Mr. Abu Sabeelah said, adding that the family wasn’t sure whether he was alive, dead, or had been captured.

Back in Rahat, at least four members of the same family — Yousef Zayadneh, his daughter Aisha and his sons Hamza and Bilal — were missing.

“These people came and killed left and right,” said Suleiman Zayadneh, their relative and a local official.

He said he was “proud of being Palestinian” and expressed fury that Hamas had committed such acts supposedly in the name of Palestinian nationalism and Islam.

“What national pride? What religion?” he said of the gunmen. “The people who came to shoot and kill — they know nothing of religion.”

 

 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

The video on MSNBC in gaza is so fucking heartbreaking and tragic, I'm not really succesfully keeping it together. This world is fucked. We should all be razed and give it back to the animals. 

[bolverk 29360]

"They're all brainwashed"

From Haaretz:

Quote

 

Israel's Arab Citizens, Torn Between Innocent Israeli and Palestinians Victims
For many Arabs in Israel, the sorrow of witnessing the many innocent Israelis being hurt on one side quickly turned into the anguish of seeing the many innocents being struck within the Strip

The attack by Hamas on the Israel's Gaza border communities Saturday and the war that unfolded in its aftermath have shocked Israel's Arab society. As in any round of violence, Israel's Arab citizens find themselves torn between their identities as both Palestinians and Israelis and their basic values – which stand above everything.

The prevailing atmosphere in Israel's Arab society is that of silence mixed with vigilance and dread. Like all Israelis, the country's Arab citizens are following events in the media. The visuals captured in the Israeli communities near Gaza were initially perceived by them as reflecting a military victory, and there were even those who compared the surprise attack to the breach of the Bar-Lev line during the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

However, once the horrific atrocities carried out by Hamas began to circulate in the media, showing citizens being kidnapped and murdered, the perception changed. Many Arab citizens expressed grief and pain over the harming of innocents, along with concerns about the consequences of such an attack both on the Gaza Strip and Israel's Arab society.
Israel's Arab citizens did not miss the gushing flow of information about the many dead, wounded, kidnapped and those whose whereabouts are unknown. Many of them have lost their relatives, friends, or family members, some from Arab communities in the Negev where there are no shelters. Activists in nonprofit organizations and public benefit corporations that engage in activities for the Bedouin population near Gaza were also killed or wounded in the attacks.

Within two days, however, the photos from the severe attacks on Israel's south were replaced by those showing Israel's attacks on Gaza. Israeli media did not broadcast these visuals, but the country's Arab citizens saw almost everything live on Arab satellite channels and social media posts.

The sorrow of witnessing the many innocent Israelis being hurt on one side of the Gaza border was now turned into the anguish of seeing the many innocents being struck within the Strip. Israel's Arab citizens face a complex situation.

Attorney Hanan Alsanah, a social activist and member of the Be'er Sheva office of Itach-Maaki, an association of women lawyers for social justice, does not hide the pain and dilemma in Arab society, but emphasized that one should focus primarily on basic human values.

"The heart weeps," Alsanah wrote on Facebook. "It weeps for the many friends we have lost, for the innocent citizens on both sides who paid such a price. The heart weeps for all the people missing; for the citizens in the unrecognized and unprotected [Bedouin] villages, many of whom died and are not even mentioned. The heart weeps for the children, the women, the young and the elderly. The heart weeps! Because we knew we were led by erratic individuals who were setting the whole area on fire, and we did not do enough."

At least for now, and as the scars of Operation Guardian of the Walls of 2021 are still healing, Israel's Arab citizens refrain from protesting the current devastation and loss of innocent lives in Gaza. To deal with the situation, the Arab parties and members of the High Follow-up Committee for Arab Citizens of Israel established an emergency committee and situation rooms that include professionals, advisors and experts to help Israel's Arab population as the war continues.

Muhammad Baraka, chairman of the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee in Israel, told Haaretz that Israel's Arab citizens are not blind to the unfolding events.

"Our position has always been against harming civilians, but what happened Saturday must not give Israel the legitimacy to brutally attack the civilian population in Gaza. 60 percent of the wounded there are civilians. These are women and children. Nothing can justify this. Since 1948, the Palestinians have always suffered, so no one can teach us what civilian suffering is. The struggle shouldn't be about revenge but how we'll be able to end the reasons for all this, for the Palestinians who also wish to live like human beings."

Haaretz spoke to Baraka while National Security Minister Itamar Ben-Gvir addressed the media outside the police station in the southern city of Sderot. Ben-Gvir said that there is a solid possibility that riots would break out across Israel in a similar fashion to what we have seen during Operation Guardian of the Walls.

"Ben-Gvir wants to start a fire and unleash flames within the borders of the Green Line because that is his area of responsibility," Baraka said and referred to the minister's call to allow all residents of Sderot to carry weapons "In Arab society we're not afraid of Ben-Gvir, we behave responsibly as we understand the complexity of the situation."

Lawyer and social activist Khaled Azbarka of the People's Committee in the city of Lod, who represented many young Arabs who participated in the riots during Operation Guardian of the Walls, agrees with Baraka that Ben-Gvir's statements are inciting.

"Ben-Gvir wants his agenda to influence [the situation in] Israel so he'll be able to stir up his base for his own interest, but that won't happen," Azbarka said, clarifying that the Arab citizens want no escalation. "Israel's Arab society shows responsibility. We expect that the government and the Israeli public as a whole will also behave this way and not turn every Arab into an immediate suspect and a terrorist."

Many Arab Israelis feel that Hamas has crossed the line this time, so they prefer to keep a low profile. A social activist who usually organizes demonstrations explained why he avoids them now: "The whole situation is complex. It's also the number [of victims] on both sides, but there's no doubt what happened during Operation Guardian of the Walls still resonates and there are quite a few young [Arab] people who are still behind bars. On top of that, you have our extreme government and a general atmosphere that can give the police [the legitimacy] to shoot, for example, a convoy of five cars that carry a Palestinian flag."

Israel's Arab citizens are extremely cautious even online, as various right-wing organizations monitor posts that they suspect as incitement to violence and report them. Attorney Sawsan Zaher, the legal advisor of the committee that deals with emergencies in the Arab community, said that in recent days she has received many inquiries and complaints from Arab citizens and students about sanctions being taken against them for various online statements.

Zaher claims that many posts express sorrow over the death of innocent children, women and civilians in the Gaza Strip and do not include inciting claims. She added that monitoring these posts is a violation of freedom of expression and that the committee is examining how to take legal action against the police and universities who act against those who express a legitimate position. "In light of the current situation, we need to examine to what extent freedom of expression is eroded to zero in Israel of 2023," she said.

 

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

As I said earlier in this thread,

“at least the blood is on Hamas’ hands not ours”. That’s your argument

No it isn’t. I described the situation of human shields and civilian casualties.

 

Nobody is innocent, nor did I say it expressly or implied.

You really have to be binary about it all don’t you?  Every fucking time.

Edited October 13, 2023 by slorch

[hobbes2702 12771]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

"I'm not defending Hamas, but..."

Who's hands is the blood really on, Hobbes? You tell us. Because most people here freely admit it's on both.

Hamas is literally advising Gaza citizens that Isreli's warning for people to evacuate to the South is psychological warfare to force a migration to leave their homes. They're telling them not to evacuate. In many places, as being reported on MSNBC, they're actively PREVENTING citizens from evacuating to the South. Who's hands are the blood on?

Holy shit way to miss the point.

[G650 13990]

4 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

We should all be razed and give it back to the animals. 

Well, we're working on it

[TexArcher 37455]

So, it seems like a little bit of progress should be relatively simple to engineer here.  The UN brokers some sort of an agreement, whereby the UN sets up a humanitarian corridor into Egypt.  For every Israeli hostage that Hamas releases, 10,000 women and children are allowed evacuate from Gaza via the humanitarian corridor.  UN troops and/or NATO troops police the corridor to make sure that women and children are getting out, and no arms or supplies are getting in to Hamas.  And, the UN and other international organizations take responsibility for the refugees, so that it doesn't all fall on Egypt.

Let's not quibble over the numbers or logistics here.  There's a way to work something like this out.  There has to be.

But, it won't happen.  Because the awful truth is that neither side wants that.  Hamas wants the human shields, and Israel wants the bloody vengeance.

So, tens of thousands of women and children are about to die.  Maybe hundreds of thousands.  And, no one will do a god damned thing to stop it.

This is the world we live in, still, in 2023.  What a fucking shame this entire place is. 

[South Austin 52037]

2 hours ago, Dbeasy said:

It’s awesome that Israel told 1 million Palestinian people to vacate North Gaza. Now all that will be left are the Hamas terrorists to easily shoot. Such an orderly war. 

I don't know why, but engaging in any sort of ground invasion in Palestine against Hamas reminds me of this bit from Good Morning Vietnam:

Adrian Cronauer : [impersonating an Intelligence Officer]  We've realized that we're having a very difficult time finding the enemy. It isn't easy to find a Vietnamese man named "Charlie." They're all named Nguyen, or Tran, or...

Adrian Cronauer : [as himself]  Well, how are you going about it?

Adrian Cronauer : [as Intel Officer]  Well, we walk up to someone and say, 'Are you the enemy? And, if they say yes, then we shoot them."

[SydneyCarton 47809]

4 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Holy shit way to miss the point.

Then enlighten me, explicitly. Because I feel like you've gotten most of my points thus far and just don't give a fuck. So please, take the time to explain it to my obvoiusly unintelligent, oblivious self. You want to talk about historical context, you want to talk about understanding how we got there, you want people to understand that Isreal hasn't helped this situation at all, they've exacerbated it. These are all good, excellent things we should all understand because without understanding the past, we are doomed to repeat it, and goddamn if humanity isn't hell bent on doing that shit over and over. 

So while you're helping me get your point that I've apparently missed, why don't you address mine. Not in the historical context. But right now. In this moment. Hamas is literally advising Gaza citizens that Isreli's warning for people to evacuate to the South is psychological warfare to force a migration to leave their homes. They're telling them not to evacuate. In many places, as being reported on MSNBC, they're actively PREVENTING citizens from evacuating to the South. Who's hands will THAT blood on?

What should Israel do? Realistically speaking, the only thing that will prevent the further loss of innocent lives will be to do nothing. They won't do that, and they can't do that because it just encourages more of this behavior. 

10 minutes ago, G650 said:

Well, we're working on it

Never wanted a sadness emoji on surly before, but I want one now. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

12 minutes ago, G650 said:

Well, we're working on it

Yeah, jeez.  It takes time.  Patience, people.

[G650 13990]

5 minutes ago, South Austin said:

I don't know why, but engaging in any sort of ground invasion in Palestine against Hamas reminds me of this bit from Good Morning Vietnam:

Adrian Cronauer : [impersonating an Intelligence Officer]  We've realized that we're having a very difficult time finding the enemy. It isn't easy to find a Vietnamese man named "Charlie." They're all named Nguyen, or Tran, or...

Adrian Cronauer : [as himself]  Well, how are you going about it?

Adrian Cronauer : [as Intel Officer]  Well, we walk up to someone and say, 'Are you the enemy? And, if they say yes, then we shoot them."

I'm more interested in Roosevelt E Roosevelt's weather report

[SydneyCarton 47809]

8 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

So, it seems like a little bit of progress should be relatively simple to engineer here.  The UN brokers some sort of an agreement, whereby the UN sets up a humanitarian corridor into Egypt.  For every Israeli hostage that Hamas releases, 10,000 women and children are allowed evacuate from Gaza via the humanitarian corridor.  UN troops and/or NATO troops police the corridor to make sure that women and children are getting out, and no arms or supplies are getting in to Hamas.  And, the UN and other international organizations take responsibility for the refugees, so that it doesn't all fall on Egypt.

Let's not quibble over the numbers or logistics here.  There's a way to work something like this out.  There has to be.

But, it won't happen.  Because the awful truth is that neither side wants that.  Hamas wants the human shields, and Israel wants the bloody vengeance.

So, tens of thousands of women and children are about to die.  Maybe hundreds of thousands.  And, no one will do a god damned thing to stop it.

This is the world we live in, still, in 2023.  What a fucking shame this entire place is. 

I agree with your entire post except the first paragraph, and that's because I agree with your third paragraph. 

[chainsaw 9831]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

And for the record, I'm not really upset that anyone tries to defend any side of this, or how we got here. But when I expressed a different opinion of what I think Israel will do next, even though I think it's a huge mistake, I was attacked form multiple sides and implicitly and explicitly called a piece of shit. 

I don't think I have ever attacked you or called you a piece of shit. If I ever did, I apologize.

Quote

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Lets look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

Lets analyize a similar sentence structure commonly seen on this partiuclarly forum and 100% denounced by regular cloak room posters, justifiably: "I'm not a racist, but...."

So, I guess you have an opporuntiy here. Why don't you explain, so we can all understand, the reasons so we can all understand Hamas forcibly entering the homes, parks, and public places of Israel and kidnapping and mudering their citizens, including women, children, and the elderly. Please, explain that to me. We all want to understand. 

I'm certainly admitting that Israel has done horrible shit, is currently run by horrible fucking people, and they're probably about to do exactly what Hamas wants and do the most horrible shit we've seen to date. 

I see your point, and in ordinary conversation I might even agree. But on this board, we should strive to treat one another charitably and without assuming ill intentions. (And sure for some posters maybe their reputations have earned them a reduced or non-existent benefit of the doubt). But to me, that means I hold my fire until someone actually has justified terror.

Racism is a systemic, pervasive force and often operates within us on subconscious level. Most of us, including good people who go out of their way not to be racist for reasons other than keeping up appearances, have been cogs in this system and have exerted forces on the world that are correctly categorized as racist. Our laws are racist. Our justice system is racist. Our institutions are racist. Our traditions are racist.

So when someone says "I'm not racist, but . . . " (1) that's untrue, whether they know it or not, and (2) what follows may very well be bigoted. The point you likely were making is that you can't simply use magic words to transform a racist expression into a non-racist expression and, by that same reasoning, you can't use magic words to transform terror justification into something else.

The problem I have with that argument is that racism is a systemic, pervasive force while terrorism is broad category of intimidation tactics that inflict terror and death. There are similarities in that both are bad, but that's about where the similarities end. All of us have been and to varying extents are racist; very few (and hopefully nobody on this board) has been or ever will be a terrorist. Someone who wants to prevent terrorism, as most of us do, will also want to understand where terrorism comes from. Who do those tactics appeal to, and why? What brings someone to that point? What interventions could have been made and how? That's very different from justifying the tactics.

We also have the "benefit" of 20+ years of a failed "war on terror." There have been lessons learned. We know what's effective. We know what isn't effective. We also know that facile framing of terrorism as the product of some kind of unpredictable malevolent force, rather than a statistically likely stochastic consequence under certain conditions with which history has made us familiar, is misleading and counterproductive to anyone with a legitimate interest in reducing and eliminating terrorism.

The pre-cogs of Minority Report lore are and should remain fictitious.  It's wrong to punish people for something they may not actually do later. I also believe it's wrong to criticize someone for "justifying" terror when they may not actually do that later. That's the benefit of the doubt I extend to most posters.

[C-Man 26992]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

 

Because the Explaining in question oftentimes veers pretty close to...apologizing for Hamas. Which was pointed out to me, that no one was apologizing for Hamas. Lets look at a typical sentence strucutre I'm sure you're famliar with: "I'm not apologizing for Hamas, but....."

Lets analyize a similar sentence structure commonly seen on this partiuclarly forum and 100% denounced by regular cloak room posters, justifiably: "I'm not a racist, but...."

So, I guess you have an opporuntiy here. Why don't you explain, so we can all understand, the reasons so we can all understand Hamas forcibly entering the homes, parks, and public places of Israel and kidnapping and mudering their citizens, including women, children, and the elderly. Please, explain that to me. We all want to understand. 

I'm certainly admitting that Israel has done horrible shit, is currently run by horrible fucking people, and they're probably about to do exactly what Hamas wants and do the most horrible shit we've seen to date. 

And for the record, I'm not really upset that anyone tries to defend any side of this, or how we got here. But when I expressed a different opinion of what I think Israel will do next, even though I think it's a huge mistake, I was attacked form multiple sides and implicitly and explicitly called a piece of shit. 

Chris Rock's OJ/Nicole bit?

"25 thousand a month, let the man drive around his car, fucking his wife and a house he's still paying the mortgage on? Now I'm not saying he shoulda killed her. But I understand."

 

2 minutes ago, G650 said:

I'm more interested in Roosevelt E Roosevelt's weather report

"It's hot! Damn hot!"

[hobbes2702 12771]

16 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Then enlighten me, explicitly. Because I feel like you've gotten most of my points thus far and just don't give a fuck. So please, take the time to explain it to my obvoiusly unintelligent, oblivious self. You want to talk about historical context, you want to talk about understanding how we got there, you want people to understand that Isreal hasn't helped this situation at all, they've exacerbated it. These are all good, excellent things we should all understand because without understanding the past, we are doomed to repeat it, and goddamn if humanity isn't hell bent on doing that shit over and over. 

So while you're helping me get your point that I've apparently missed, why don't you address mine. Not in the historical context. But right now. In this moment. Hamas is literally advising Gaza citizens that Isreli's warning for people to evacuate to the South is psychological warfare to force a migration to leave their homes. They're telling them not to evacuate. In many places, as being reported on MSNBC, they're actively PREVENTING citizens from evacuating to the South. Who's hands will THAT blood on?

What should Israel do? Realistically speaking, the only thing that will prevent the further loss of innocent lives will be to do nothing. They won't do that, and they can't do that because it just encourages more of this behavior. 

Never wanted a sadness emoji on surly before, but I want one now. 

Read the thread. This exact conversation has already been had. It doesn’t matter whose hands the blood is on. That’s the point. Whether Hamas or Israel is at fault doesn’t fucking matter. It still means a bunch of people just going about their lives are going to be killed.

Edited October 13, 2023 by hobbes2702

[Brian Fantana 6654]

20 minutes ago, TexArcher said:

So, it seems like a little bit of progress should be relatively simple to engineer here.  The UN brokers some sort of an agreement, whereby the UN sets up a humanitarian corridor into Egypt.  For every Israeli hostage that Hamas releases, 10,000 women and children are allowed evacuate from Gaza via the humanitarian corridor.  UN troops and/or NATO troops police the corridor to make sure that women and children are getting out, and no arms or supplies are getting in to Hamas.  And, the UN and other international organizations take responsibility for the refugees, so that it doesn't all fall on Egypt.

Let's not quibble over the numbers or logistics here.  There's a way to work something like this out.  There has to be.

But, it won't happen.  Because the awful truth is that neither side wants that.  Hamas wants the human shields, and Israel wants the bloody vengeance.

So, tens of thousands of women and children are about to die.  Maybe hundreds of thousands.  And, no one will do a god damned thing to stop it.

This is the world we live in, still, in 2023.  What a fucking shame this entire place is. 

Yeah I mean of course there's a way. It's like I said earlier in the thread, it's just not easy or quick.

And like everything difficult, it starts with a first step. It absolutely has to begin with Palestinians being treated like human beings and as equals, and the immediate cessation of all of the ethnic cleansing that is still taking place. Unless that baseline is first met, there's no moving forward, and the onus for that first step has always been on Israel.

[F250 28659]

1 hour ago, slorch said:

Well I'm sure Hamas will present themselves to openly fight the Isrealis on a traditional battlefield, given they are outmatched at every level.

One side is warning civilians to leave.  The other chooses to use them as shields.

 

American and NATO forces faced similar situations in Iraq and Afghanistan while also operating under rules of engagement. This is part of the responsibility that Western liberal democracies have and what differentiates them from countries like Russia. If Israel wants to be viewed like the West as a liberal democracy then they should be held to the same standards.

 

[South Austin 52037]

23 minutes ago, G650 said:

I'm more interested in Roosevelt E Roosevelt's weather report

You got a window? Open it!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

American and NATO forces faced similar situations in Iraq and Afghanistan while also operating under rules of engagement. This is part of the responsibility that Western liberal democracies have and what differentiates them from countries like Russia. If Israel wants to be viewed like the West as a liberal democracy then they should be held to the same standards.

 

Isreal has  typically operated under the MO of , you take one, you lose 3, if not more.  It is necessary for their very existence.

Isreal also is attempting to alleviate civilian casualties by giving the warning.  "Hey, we intend to create a DMZ here, you might want to vacate the premises."

[jimmyjazz 45513]

5 minutes ago, slorch said:

Isreal has  typically operated under the MO of , you take one, you lose 3, if not more.  It is necessary for their very existence.

Isreal also is attempting to alleviate civilian casualties by giving the warning.  "Hey, we intend to create a DMZ here, you might want to vacate the premises."

Pet peeve, I keep seeing this:

*Israel

[Anastasis 23375]

I have a hard time taking someone seriously on the topic if they can't spell Israel.