Israel

[bolverk 29659]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think it’s relevant to remember that about 60 percent of the Jews in Israel are descendants of Middle Eastern Jews who got kicked out of their ancient homes as revenge for the establishment of Israel. Which they had nothing to do with. 
 

And in a big population swap, they came to Israel as refugees while Arab Palestinians fled as refugees. The difference being that Israel integrated and gave citizenship to those people as opposed to maintaining them as permanent aggrieved refugees. 
 

So there’s a big chunk of Israelis with just as much claim to righteous fury for being evicted, and that’s almost never mentioned in the settler/colonial narrative, nor is a realistic alternative as to what they should have done. 

So they took it out their fury on the Palestinians who'd been neglected by Jordan and Egypt instead?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 minutes ago, bolverk said:

So they took it out their fury on the Palestinians who'd been neglected by Jordan and Egypt instead?

Well, that’s one narrative.  Another one is that their former rulers first evicted them from their ancient homes and forced them to go to a new one, the only one that would take them. And then those same rulers launched successive wars against their new home to try and destroy it under the theory the place they got sent to had no right to exist. 
 

And both narratives are true. The point here is that “who’s been more victimized” isn’t really helpful. Just like it’s not helpful to say “Israel has all the power.”  Did all that power protect the 1k and counting who got murdered on Saturday? Did they feel powerful? 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

2 hours ago, G650 said:

So a total aside, I've always found antisemitism to be the most bizarre thing, like from the time I was a child. And these days when I hear some crackpot thing abot the Jews running the world, it's just, man. Like <waves at everything that's happened to Jews in the past two millennia >. Y'all really think these people control shit?

I've had this thought, too.  However, Muslims conveniently let Jews be the banker/mercantile class in many of their societies, and, as we have seen right here in 'murica, those people exercise a lot of control behind the scenes.

And, not directly relevant, but the Rothschilds amassed a huge fortune that they wisely kept quite secret, and from that position, exercised a lot of control of various things, such as financing Britain and her allies during the Napoleonic wars.

So, combine those historical facts with some of the various myths and you have a ripe plantation for conspiracy theories.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 hours ago, bolverk said:

Counterpoint:

Jews lived, albeit in small numbers, in the area we call Palestine for centuries alongside their Arab/Palestinian neighbors without being exterminated. Even during the early Zionism movement, starting in the 1880s when more Jews were arriving and their numbers began to swell, they were not exterminated by their Arab/Palestinian neighbors.

It's not a coincidence that the violence didn't really get started until about the time the UN carved out a bunch of land and the Palestinians were being kicked out of their ancestral homeland did major conflict arise. It wasn't because of any inherent hatred of the Jews (they were tolerated); it was because Palestinians being displaced (forcibly I might add) from the farms they'd been tilling and villages they'd been inhabiting for 1500 years.

The Ottomans, Byzantines, Malmuks and others are doing a lot of the heavy lifting here over the centuries, I might add. If you want to argue that ethnonationalism is maybe inferior to huge multiethnic empires where the ruler just cares about keeping a lid on things and collecting taxes, I might go there…..

[bolverk 29659]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, that’s one narrative.  Another one is that their former rulers first evicted them from their ancient homes and forced them to go to a new one, the only one that would take them. And then those same rulers launched successive wars against their new home to try and destroy it under the theory the place they got sent to had no right to exist. 
 

And both narratives are true. The point here is that “who’s been more victimized” isn’t really helpful. Just like it’s not helpful to say “Israel has all the power.”  Did all that power protect the 1k and counting who got murdered on Saturday? Did they feel powerful? 

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

[Dahobbs 17527]

1 minute ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

[SydneyCarton 48068]

32 minutes ago, bolverk said:

How much effort in building up democratic norms and making investments to create a viable economy had Israel made before unleashing them? You militarily occupy a territory for 40 years and then just let go? That spells trouble.

You'd think they would've had a Marshall Plan or not forced people to live under a pretty harsh police state or something while also concurrently putting forth genuine efforts in building peace between neighbors.

Tell me again, how did all those Israeli settlers who were made to leave when the occupation of Gaza ended acquire all that farmland in Gaza, which was not internationally recognized as Israeli soil?

Seems if you're in charge of a place for 40 years, you'd try not to let it bite you in the ass when you suddenly let it go.

Oh, I see. It’s Israel’s fault for not doing the one thing that pretty much never happens in any colonial situation. America is still learning that lesson over and over, but let’s hold Israel to a higher standard, and as a result basically they deserve what Hamas came dishing, is that it? The US didn’t even learn from the Marshall Plan, and we fucking did it. It’s almost like you’re intent on finding a way to lay the ultimate fault here at the feet of Israel, no matter what. 
 

How did Israel get all that farmland? Palestinians attacked Israel in 1967 and Israel not only repelled them, but drove them back and took more land after they were invaded. And then they offered to give almost all of it back immediately after the war in a 2 state solution, and Palestinians told them to go fuck themselves. It’s almost like war has consequences sometimes. Not taking an off ramp to peace certainly did I guess in this instance. Now compare where Palestine would be now if they’d accepted that deal back then? Or better yet, never fucking attacked in the first place? But yes, it’s always Israel’s fault and they have all the power. What a fucking load of horseshit. 

“Try not to let it bite you in the ass.” When you put it that way, it sounds like not ceding the land and letting them democratically elect a militant extremist sect whose charter is Jewish genocide worldwide. I’m not sure you’re making the point you think you’re making. 

[bolverk 29659]

3 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

I don't think the Israeli Jews would go for that one given the demographic trends pointing to them soon being a minority in the combined territories.

I used to think the same, but the Israelis wouldn't let go of the dream of having their own Jewish state. I don't blame them either, given their history. 

[SydneyCarton 48068]

10 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

This is a pretty good plan. 
 

Neither side will agree to it. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

There’s no world where the UN is equipped to administer a city long-term and control it, that’s not how the UN is set up to function. And that’s not a knock on the UN for this instance, just pointing out that it’s calling for a wrench to be a hammers. Wasn’t there a Tom Clancy book where they agree to give Jerusalem to the Holy See to administer with a beefed up Swiss Guards? Give it a shot. 
 

The devil here is as always in the sequences. Israel will claim (with good reason) that number 1 must come first because it’s a question of their existence. Palestine and the Arab states will claim that radicalism and violence can’t be rooted out until 2 and 5 happens. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There’s no world where the UN is equipped to administer a city long-term and control it, that’s not how the UN is set up to function. And that’s not a knock on the UN for this instance, just pointing out that it’s calling for a wrench to be a hammers. Wasn’t there a Tom Clancy book where they agree to give Jerusalem to the Holy See to administer with a beefed up Swiss Guards? Give it a shot. 
 

The devil here is as always in the sequences. Israel will claim (with good reason) that number 1 must come first because it’s a question of their existence. Palestine and the Arab states will claim that radicalism and violence can’t be rooted out until 2 and 5 happens. 

They may suck at it, but it never stopped them. DRC? 

There were calls to do this exact thing in Sarajevo. But with muscle, not a bunch of Bangladeshi and Guatemalan troops. With a mandate they could. 

If there is one city on the earth that should be international it is Jerusalem. 

They could do it with a good plan, or at least slow down the tsunami that could come. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

https://www.972mag.com/settler-attacks-west-bank-gaza-war/

[Esque 135]

15 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

The only point I continue to make is that Israel is not blameless in this gawdawful horrible fucking mess. I desperately want a solution to it, and I think that giving the Palestinians the right to self-determination in a viable state that's not chopped to bits and under constant threat of reoccupation by the IDF is the only viable solution.

For that to happen:

1. Hamas must be defeated, and the Palestinians must be convinced that radical Islam and anti-semitism hold no answers for them, much like the ideology of the Nazis was rejected by the Germans.
2. Israel must relinquish all territorial desires on the West Bank and force settlements to be abandoned with binding commitments to the UN.
3. Let Israel and Palestine declare Jerusalem as their capital with a UN-controlled zone for all Holy Sites.
4. Have an international force vigorously enforce the border with the ability to conduct any raids on militants seeking to launch rockets or breach the border.
5. Israel and the international community must subsequently make a genuine and determined effort in the nation-building enterprise of creating a fully independent and democratic Palestine; or a Singapore-, Monaco-, Hong Kong (how it used to be)-like Gaza plus the West Bank. None of this "state minus" bullshit that Bibi has discussed.

Give it a fucking chance. If the Israelis truly want peace, they're going to have to give some too.

1. This is a poor comparison.  The Nazi Party in Germany was a far-right, fascist political movement that only lasted 25 years from inception to dissolution.  The norms of the practice of Islam in this geographical region have existed for thousands of years.  A better comparison that still pales in comparison to historical magnitude is the practice of State Shinto in Japan, which required abolishment by the Allies by decree after World War II.  I don't see how you're going to remove the norms of the practice of Islam in this geographical region.  It seems the best case scenario is you'd migrate it to other, nearby countries.
2. This is not feasible.  Under immense international pressure they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.  We know the rest.  They are not going to be willing to potentially repeat the same decisions.
3. The United Nations is not equipped or positioned to manage such a situation.  That is not even remotely feasible.
4. What force?  No one is going to sign up for that role.  This is not realistic or feasible.
5. Wasn't this, somewhat, the approach with Gaza and the West Bank?  How do you execute on nation building without occupation?  For example, how do you prevent the excavation of water and sewer pipes?  Who is going to enforce that?

At this point it seems more likely Israel is going to have to transition to full occupation and enforcement in the short-term to stabilize the region.  Where they go from there and how they manage those areas in the future are TBD and will be the topic of much discussion.  As others have stated, it seems like some sort of integration may actually be the better long-term solution given history.  It will still be problematic for Israel given it's geographical location and neighbors, but perhaps they have a better shot at integration and stabilization long-term.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

They may suck at it, but it never stopped them. DRC? 

There were calls to do this exact thing in Sarajevo. But with muscle, not a bunch of Bangladeshi and Guatemalan troops. With a mandate they could. 

If there is one city on the earth that should be international it is Jerusalem. 

They could do it with a good plan, or at least slow down the tsunami that could come. 

But those are peace-keeping missions and not a long-term mandate to administer territory. The goal is always to remove the peacekeepers, not to hand over cities or territories to UN administrators, which would not at all be democratic and the UN doesn’t have the structure to do.

And even a long-term peacekeeping mission in a place like Jerusalem— strictly security— falls apart as soon as the mandate at the UNSC is withdrawn, so you’re relying on a bunch of really not trustworthy actors to just keep it going.

Kosovo would be closest, that UN mission had civil admin components. But the end goal was always to had over competencies, it’s hard to see either side or the UNSC signing up for a permanent “UN Jerusalem.” 

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/a-jewish-plea-stand-up-to-israels-act-of-genocide/

Quote

 

I have by my desk a quote attributed to beloved Jewish writer and activist Grace Paley: “The only recognizable feature of hope is action.” For over a decade that has motivated my work to build a thriving moment of American Jews in solidarity with Palestinians. But where do you find hope in the midst of utter horror? My only hope in this moment is that my fellow Jewish Americans and people of conscience all across America will unite in a way we never have before to call for an end to genocide.

Israel has dropped more bombs on Palestinians in Gaza this week than the United States dropped on Afghanistan in a full year of the war. Last night the Israeli government issued an evacuation order for the entire northern Gaza Strip, telling residents to evacuate in twenty-four hours. This order forewarns a ground invasion. Israel’s intention is to try to absolve itself of responsibility for what will ultimately be massive casualties among untold thousands who are unable or unwilling to leave. The UN has already deemed this impossible in the narrow strip where for sixteen years Israel has imprisoned 2.2 million Palestinians—nearly half of them children—in a crushing siege of land, air, and sky. 

This is genocide. 

Text threads, from those who still have an hour or so of battery life on their phones, are full of panicked families trying to discern if they should try to flee. There is nowhere to go. Entire families—grandparents, baby nieces, uncles and aunts, siblings—have been annihilated. Boys are killed as they play soccer in front of a mosque; friends are searching for their families in rubble or getting calls that they were bombed in a crowded marketplace trying to buy food before Israel cut off the supply.

So many children will die who have never seen life outside of the walls of the ghetto that Israel has locked them in, as politicians here in the United States cheer on the carnage, claiming they are doing it to protect people of my own religion.

This is genocide. 

Yes, on Saturday, Hamas militants broke out of the prison of Gaza and massacred 1,200 Israelis, including many civilians, taking more than 100 hostages. From the second I heard what was happening I have been overcome by a combination of grief and horror at the massacre itself, and also the sheer, unrelenting terror of knowing how the Israeli and American governments would weaponize these deaths. 

And like clockwork, the loss of Israeli lives is being used by our government to justify the rush to genocide, to provide moral cover for the immoral push for more weapons and more death. 

For Jews, the pain we feel is not ours alone. Since the founding of the state of Israel, the Zionist movement has positioned the domination and oppression of Palestinians and the colonization of Palestinian land as the answer to the very real question of Jewish safety. They have taken the very real pain and trauma that we as Jews carry and sharpened it into a deadly weapon. We desperately must understand that what is happening is not a cycle of violence. It is a system of violence. Everyone is caught in its teeth.

It is the system of settler colonial apartheid that the Israeli government has built and maintained over the past seventy-five years—with billions upon billions of dollars from the United States. Settler colonialism is a structure, a language, a culture, an ideology—an interlocking, totalizing, system of violence. It is a machine of war and dehumanization against Palestinians. It is this system that imperils the lives and safety of everyone.

While the vast majority of the violence of the apartheid regime lands on Palestinians, there is no safety for Israelis in a system rooted in such dehumanization and oppression. In the words of Holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer, “My great lesson from Auschwitz is: whoever wants to dehumanize any other must first be dehumanized himself. The oppressors are no longer really human, whatever uniform they wear.” The Israeli government has lost any semblance of humanity as they wage a genocide against the people living in Gaza.

It is not Palestinians who have chosen the language of violence for this land. It is the Israeli government and the United States government that have created a state of violence. 

Palestinians have remained steadfast in seeking freedom against immeasurable violence. Tens of thousands of Palestinians protested in weekly grassroots nonviolent protests at Israel’s militarized border wall around Gaza during the Great March of Return in 2019, and the Israeli government sent military snipers to murder and maim hundreds of children, women, medics, and journalists. Palestinians launch boycott campaigns to win their rights, and the Israeli government opens an entire new ministry to combat the nonviolent movement. Palestinians work at human rights organizations to document the crimes against them, and they are called and treated as terrorists. Palestinians speak the language of freedom, and the Israeli government responds—every single time—with the language of violence.

The United States government has united to fully support the Israeli war machine. Already the United States sends more than $3 billion in aid to Israel every year. Now Senator Lindsey Graham said, “I am with Israel. Do whatever the hell you have to do to defend yourself. Level the place.” Make no mistake: Israel isn’t defending itself, it is committing mass murder. Biden says, “We’ll make sure Israel has what it needs to take care of itself.” Make no mistake: Israel is waging genocide. 

My dear ones in Palestine are saying that they have never experienced such destruction in seventy-five years of occupation. My dear ones are saying there is not a moment to wait. Do not sit back while Israel carries out a genocide fully enabled by the United States. Bring your full body, your spirit, your communities, your humanity, to meet this moment, to call your representatives, to the streets. “Never again” means standing up for Palestinian people. “Never again” means this very moment.

 

All this. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[InkaUtexas 25875]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But those are peace-keeping missions and not a long-term mandate to administer territory. The goal is always to remove the peacekeepers, not to hand over cities or territories to UN administrators, which would not at all be democratic and the UN doesn’t have the structure to do.

And even a long-term peacekeeping mission in a place like Jerusalem— strictly security— falls apart as soon as the mandate at the UNSC is withdrawn, so you’re relying on a bunch of really not trustworthy actors to just keep it going.

Kosovo would be closest, that UN mission had civil admin components. But the end goal was always to had over competencies, it’s hard to see either side or the UNSC signing up for a permanent “UN Jerusalem.” 

I put thoughts out there a few times. 

And maybe it is time to change what a UN Mandate is. Declare the free city, no IDF or PA. Egypt takes over Gaza (which they don't want). 

And the UN WOULD FUCKING LOVE IT! it is why Haiti is a place they love to serve. Ongoing mandate, flights to Miami or Santo Domingo. 

I would say the HighRep for Bosnia is what it would look like. Not Kosovo. Difference is demographics and mandate. 

And Mr. Martini sipping smarty pants, how long has the UN been in the DRC? (I kid about the martini, but now I want one) 

 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I put thoughts out there a few times. 

And maybe it is time to change what a UN Mandate is. Declare the free city, no IDF or PA. Egypt takes over Gaza (which they don't want). 

And the UN WOULD FUCKING LOVE IT! it is why Haiti is a place they love to serve. Ongoing mandate, flights to Miami or Santo Domingo. 

I would say the HighRep for Bosnia is what it would look like. Not Kosovo. Difference is demographics and mandate. 

And Mr. Martini sipping smarty pants, how long has the UN been in the DRC? (I kid about the martini, but now I want one) 

 

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

yes it it, they governed under the mandate with the UN operating. Look, I am not a fan of the UN, have worked with them quite a bit, but to say they would not want it is BS. 

The HighRep WITH UN Authority redrew the Bosnian Flag. 

The solution is not building illegal settlements, nor is it terrorism, So since you think nothing will change, fuck it, let's go. 

[berlinerbaer 670]

30 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

The other viable solution is the complete and utter defeat of Palestinian resistance and the integration of remaining Palestinians into Israel as a unified state. We are a lot closer to that one happening, for better or worse. It isn't my preference by any means, but I think it is what will happen in the long run. 

 

Yes, the one-state solution is the only one that is viable over the long term. Any country that looks like this has no future by virtue of the laws of physical geography.

Even with the 1949 borders, Palestine was a geopolitical failure waiting to happen. 

 

We won't be getting a secular pluralistic democracy once Palestine is fully digested.

[InkaUtexas 25875]

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

But the HighRep is not the UN, the UN is part of the PIC. The UN isn’t even on the steering board. 
 

Haiti and DRC are crystalline examples of how not to do international interventions. 

No, but the mandate from the UN guarded it. The UN implements, the highRep decides. And then add a multi-national force. people who believe FAFO. 

I know. yet here we go again on both missions. 

[chainsaw 9861]

45 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/a-jewish-plea-stand-up-to-israels-act-of-genocide/

All this. 

This is honestly terrifying. It radicalizes the impressionable youths worldwide, including those here in the US, Dzhokar Tsarnaev-style. These injustices burn extra long for people like that, and I fear more will be joining their ranks. No matter how vigilant we try to be, there will always be flaws and cracks through which these people can and will slip. This shit better not get trump elected.

[troph 24781]

It also complete absolves Hamas and the terrorism around Israel. There is no solution except extermination of the Jews and the erasure of the state of Israel that will satisfy them. There is no peace offering that will cause Hamas to abandon their terrorism. 
 

There are three major stakeholders here - Israel, Palestinians and Hamas. War is never the solution for peace but it’s absurd to ask Israel to do nothing when the military apparatus of your neighbor is Hamas. Their tactics are next level heinous. It’s pretty hard not to say get every last one of them, whatever it takes.

one state or two state solution, real peace, it all needs to come soon but Hamas needs to be eliminated from the equation. And yes Israel must account for its actions in suppressing people and promoting apartheid. But eradicating Hamas just isn’t something they should apologize for.

 

[Chuckie Finster 22694]

This is honestly terrifying. It radicalizes the impressionable youths worldwide, including those here in the US, Dzhokar Tsarnaev-style. These injustices burn extra long for people like that, and I fear more will be joining their ranks. No matter how vigilant we try to be, there will always be flaws and cracks through which these people can and will slip. This shit better not get trump elected.

It is strange to me that you seem more troubled with the potential of some imaginary future incident fueled by radicalized terrorists than the one that actually just occurred.

[Satchel 6935]

And to think these people view themselves as unlike Hamas:

https://texags.com/forums/16/topics/3410067

[Captain Obvious 516]

22 minutes ago, troph said:

It also complete absolves Hamas and the terrorism around Israel. There is no solution except extermination of the Jews and the erasure of the state of Israel that will satisfy them. There is no peace offering that will cause Hamas to abandon their terrorism. 
 

There are three major stakeholders here - Israel, Palestinians and Hamas. War is never the solution for peace but it’s absurd to ask Israel to do nothing when the military apparatus of your neighbor is Hamas. Their tactics are next level heinous. It’s pretty hard not to say get every last one of them, whatever it takes.

one state or two state solution, real peace, it all needs to come soon but Hamas needs to be eliminated from the equation. And yes Israel must account for its actions in suppressing people and promoting apartheid. But eradicating Hamas just isn’t something they should apologize for.

 

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

[bolverk 29659]

May I ask a few horribly naive questions?

• Are a people entitled to the right of self-governance?
• What are the internationally recognized borders of Israel? Are they from 1949 or 1967? Are there others? This question is from a completely international legal perspective.
  • How does the relinquishment of West Bank territories by Jordan and the Gaza Split by Egypt affect the questions above from a legal standpoint? In other words, those lands are claimed by no established state actor, except for the emergent (?) occupied peoples. and perhaps Israel?
• Are international laws that apply to "collective punishment" versus those prohibiting violence toward civilians (i.e., terrorism) enforceable?
• How does international law treat the issue of the occupation of land acquired through force and the treatment of civilians in those territories?
• Are the perpetrators of terroristic violence by a potentially unrecognized government for a definitely unrecognized nation subject to international law?
• To what extent do the atrocities of one unrecognized warring outlaw group comprised of sociopaths versus those of a recognized force that denies basic human rights apply?

Edited October 14, 2023 by bolverk
hit return key too quickly

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Anyone got more on this? If you pay, you play. 

 

[troph 24781]

5 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

Given Hamas strategies - hiding among civilians, using civilian buildings as military installations, storing and staging weapons in/under schools, residential buildings and hospitals, telling their own people to stay, not lifting a single finger to help protect their own people from harm - not even designating safe zones within Gaza for the world to monitor and Israel and Hamas to stay away from - and targeting Israeli civilians without any pretense of trying to target military personnel only - you tell me how they fight Hamas? Don’t pay lip service and then criticize. Tell me how they do that. 
 

and why the fuck won’t Egypt open their border when the world asks? And why the fuck isn’t Hamas using its resources to help its people move? For fucks sake Hamas isn’t even setting up shelters and saying these spaces are safe we won’t be there and Israel won’t bomb there. The US state department is trying to get a southern border open and Hamas is not cooperating. Not for US citizens and not for their citizens either. No these fuckers instead go to those places that should be safe and use them as sheilds. What the fuck is wrong with them?

Russia has a better track record of protecting civilians than Hamas.

and why is it okay for us to occupy towns and cities across Afghanistan and Iraq for decades to stop terrorism but it’s not okay for Israel to do it to Gaza? 
 

why does israel have to give up territorial integrity to a people who acquiesce to a military force that is a world wide acknowledged terrorist group? 
 

putting aside my own beliefs about how to protect civilians here and what peace should look like, I can say it’s not my place to tell them what to and not to do. What I can say is there needs to be more pressure on Hamas to protect its own people than on Israel because Hamas is a terrorist organization that has no problem sacrificing its people.
 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[SydneyCarton 48068]

6 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It is strange to me that you seem more troubled with the potential of some imaginary future incident fueled by radicalized terrorists than the one that actually just occurred.

To borrow from the DT, you mean this tragedy? Where these kids were killed violently, one on one, their last seconds lived in terrifying fear? This is why all of Israel is seeing red? 
 

The children 💔

Aryeh Alexander Sandler, the late 5-year-old
The late Gabriel Issachar Sandler, 3 years old
The late Daniel Aryeh Wiplich, 16 years old
The late Elad Fogel, 4 years old
The late Hadas Vogel is three months old
The late Yoav Fogel, 10 years old
The late Yonatan Palmer, one year old
The late Shlomo Nativ, 13 years old
The late Segev Paniel Avihil, 15 years old
Yonatan Yitzhak Elder, 16 years old
Yondav Chaim Hirshfeld, 18 years old
The late Naria Cohen, 15 years old
The late Yohai Lifshitz, 18 years old
The late Avraham David Mozes, 16 years old
The late Roy Aharon Roth, 18 years old
The late Eliyahu Pinchas Ashari, 18 years old
The late Mazel Zaribi, 15 years old
The late Daniel Waltz, 16 years old
The late Amir Naim, 17 years old
Shaked Lasker, the late 16-year-old
The late Omer Menashe Pisakhov, 8 years old
Ella Aboxis, the late 17-year-old
The late Rachel Hali ben Abu, 16 years old
The late Oz Israel ben Meir, 14 years old
The late Nofer Horvitz, 16 years old
The late Avihai Levi, 16 years old
The late Aviad Yehuda Mansour, 15 years old
The late Yuval Abba, 4 years old
The late Afik Ohion Zahavi, 3 years old
The late Lior Azoulai, 18 years old
The late Aviel Yitzhak Atch, 3 years old
Two-year-old Dorit from the late Binsan movie
The late Roni Sarah Hatuel, 6 years old
The late Merav Rachel Hatuel is two years old
The late Hila Esther Hatuel, 10 years old
The late Hadar Simcha Hatuel, 9 years old
Son Jonathan Zuckerman, 18 years old
The late Lior Liorinka Niv, 3 years old
The late Gilad Giladi Niv, 11 years old
The late Avraham Shaked is one year old
The late Tomer Almog, 9 years old
The late Habib Dadon, 16 years old
The late Benjamin Bergman, 15 years old
The late Avraham Bar-Or, 12 years old
The late Shmuel Zargari, one year old
Noya Zar, the late Aviv, one year old
Liran Zer Aviv, the late 4-year-old
The late Erez Gizro Hershkowitz, 18 years old
The late Tom Hershko, 15 years old
The late Daniel Harosh, 16 years old
The late Shmuel Taubenfeld, one year old
The late Moran Menachem, 17 years old
The late Yuval Mandelwitz, 13 years old
The late Abigail Lytle, 14 years old
The late Noam Leibovitz, 7 years old
The late Tehila Natanzan, 3 years old
The late Elisheva Meshulami, 16 years old
The late Elizabeth Liz Katzman, 19 years old
Asaf Blondi Tzur Zollinger, the late 17-year-old
The late Smeder Firstetter, 16 years old
The late Asaf Steyer, 10 years old
The late Issachar Dov Reinitz, 9 years old
The late Tal Kerman, 17 years old
The late Shani Avitzedek Abutzadeka, 16 years old
The late Asnat Abramov, 16 years old
Matan Ohion, the late 5-year-old
The late Noam Levi Ohion, 4 years old
The late Yael Ohana, 11 years old
The late Orly Ophir, 15 years old
The late Noa Orbach, 18 years old
The late Dvir Anter, 14 years old
Yaakov Avraham Eliyahu, the late one year old
The late Lidor Ilan, 11 years old
The late Oriya Ilan is one year old
The late Gal Eisenman, 5 years old
Gilila Bugla, 11 years old
The late Hodia Hudish Asraf, 13 years old
The late Noy Enter, 12 years old
The late Shubal Zion Dickstein, 9 years old
The late Elmer Dzbrailov, 16 years old
The late Adi Dahan, 17 years old
Jonathan Gamaliel, 16 years old
The late Hadar Hershkovitz, 14 years old
The late Rachel Gila Teller, 16 years old
The late Gabriel Hoter, 17 years old
The late Shmuel Ephraim Yerushalmi, 17 years old
Atara Livna, 15 years old
The late Racheli Hali Levy, 17 years old
The late Shiraz Nimhad, 6 years old
The late Shaul Nimhad, 15 years old
The late Liran Nimhad is 3 years old
The late Avraham Eliyahu Nicham, 16 years old
Baruch Asher Zvi Markus, 18 years old
Her father, the late Malka, is one year old
The late Nehmi'a Amar, 15 years old
The late Linoi Serousi, 14 years old
Avraham Yosef Haim Seton, the late 17-year-old
The late Gaston Parfi Parfinial, 15 years old
The late Ilan Perlman, 8 years old
Aharon Mordechai Eric Krugliak, 18 years old

The late Sinai Kenan is one year old

The late Tal Tzvi Tlik Kurzweil, 18 years old
The late Ran Koren, 18 years old
The late Gal Koren, 14 years old
Asaf Moshe Tzafira, 18 years old
Avraham Nere' Shebo, deceased, 16 years old
Avishai Yosef Shabo, deceased, 5 years old
The late Keren Shatsky, 14 years old
The late Nathaniel Riahi, 17 years old
The late Erez Shlomo Rond, 18 years old
The late Ofer Ron, 18 years old
The late Yafit Rabivo is 14 years old
The late Daniel Bat-El Shafi, 5 years old
The late Adi Sheeran, 17 years old
Sara Tafarat Shilon, deceased, one year old
The late Gilad Stiglitz, 14 years old
Zvi Yaakov Yisrael Shabu Zal, 12 years old
The late Hadas Turgeman, 14 years old
The late Michael Sherashevsky, 16 years old
The late Assaf Avitan, 15 years old
The late Irina Usadchi, 18 years old
The late Yosef Ish-Ran, 14 years old
The late Yossi Elezra, 18 years old
The late Yuri Goshchin, 18 years old
The late Marina Berkovski, 17 years old
Shoshana Rachel Shushi ben Yishai Zalvat 16
The late Adam Weinstein, 14 years old
Yaakov Israel Danino, deceased, 17 years old
Genia Keren Dorfman, the late 16-year-old
The late Ido Cohen, 18 years old
The late Maria Tagiltsev, 14 years old
The late Tamar Messengisar, 8 years old
The late Jacob Kobi Mendel, 13 years old
The late Aliza Malka, 16 years old
The late Mariana Medvedenko, 16 years old
The late Naftali Ben-Zion Lantzakron, 13 years old
The late Ronen Landau, 17 years old
The late Alexey Lupalo, 17 years old
The late Raya Sahivashordar, 14 years old
Hamda Bracha Sahivashurdar, the late two-year-old
Avraham Yitzchak Sahivashordar, the late 4-year-old
The late Irina Nepomniaschi, 16 years old
The late Yelena Nalimov, 18 years old
The late Yulia Nalimov, 16 years old
The late Avraham Nachman Avrom Nitzani, 18 years old
The late Shalhav Tahiya Pess is one year old
The late Yair Amar, 13 years old
The late Yulia Yael Skalianik, 15 years old
The late Michal Sara Raziel, 16 years old
The late Malka Hana Malki Roth, 15 years old
The late Eliran Rosenberg, 14 years old
The late Simona Rodin, 18 years old
The late Menashe Mani Regev, 14 years old
The late Katrina Arias, 15 years old
Anya Eniota Kazachkov, 16 years old
The late Golan Turgeman, 15 years old
The late Yochaved Shoshan, 10 years old
Yehuda, who is one year old
The late Ofir Rahum, 17 years old
The late Gil-Ad Sha'er, 16 years old
The late Naftali Frankel, 16 years old
The late Adele Beaton, 4 years old

 

If you want to worry about some future, radicalized tragedy, you can start with anyone related to those list of names. But at the very least you don’t fucking ignore it, or wave it away, like some posters want to do. 
 

“I’m not saying what Hamas did was right, but let’s look at how the rural farmers in Israel are treating Palestinian settlers.” 
 

whats happening in Israel to Palestinians isn’t right. What happened in Israel last week was beyond the pale fucking horrifyingly wrong. What’s about to happen/happening in Gaza REALLY isn’t motherfucking right, it’s probably going to be war crimes. Most people here get and acknowledge that. But some posters seem really fucking intent on one-siding the issue. You can’t one side the issue, or wave it the fuck away. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[G650 14246]

8 hours ago, InkaUtexas said:

 

And Mr. Martini sipping smarty pants,

 

I feel attacked

[Bullneck 19073]

A week ago we were 5-0, #3 and CR was mostly making fun of Boobert and MGT.  

The phone, the TV, and the news of the world got in the house like a pigeon from Hell.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bullneck
I think about The Pretenders from time to time.

[SydneyCarton 48068]

2 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

A week ago we were 5-0, #3 and CR was mostly making fun of Boobert and MGT.  

The phone, the TV, and the news of the world got in the house like a pigeon from Hell.

I think the sad reality is that as human beings, we let pigeons in the house all the time and are really good at ignoring the shit and havoc they create. It takes world tragedies to snap us out of reverie, but soon we all get exhausted and go back to ignoring politics, climate change, and wanting to help fix problems and help people. 

[South Austin 52459]

14 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

I think the sad reality is that as human beings, we let pigeons in the house all the time and are really good at ignoring the shit and havoc they create. It takes world tragedies to snap us out of reverie, but soon we all get exhausted and go back to ignoring politics, climate change, and wanting to help fix problems and help people. 

I’m all for fixing problems and helping people . . . after the football season is over.

[Neonmoon 38129]

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

[G650 14246]

30 minutes ago, Bullneck said:

A week ago we were 5-0, #3 and CR was mostly making fun of Boobert and MGT.  

The phone, the TV, and the news of the world got in the house like a pigeon from Hell.

Top 3 song reference anyway. Wretched life of a lonely heart eh

[6th Street 6390]

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/human-rights-watch-says-israel-used-white-phosphorous-gaza-lebanon-2023-10-12/
 

 

[M12BH 545]

12 hours ago, bolverk said:

Counterpoint:

Jews lived, albeit in small numbers, in the area we call Palestine for centuries alongside their Arab/Palestinian neighbors without being exterminated. Even during the early Zionism movement, starting in the 1880s when more Jews were arriving and their numbers began to swell, they were not exterminated by their Arab/Palestinian neighbors.

It's not a coincidence that the violence didn't really get started until about the time the UN carved out a bunch of land and the Palestinians were being kicked out of their ancestral homeland did major conflict arise. It wasn't because of any inherent hatred of the Jews (they were tolerated); it was because Palestinians being displaced (forcibly I might add) from the farms they'd been tilling and villages they'd been inhabiting for 1500 years.

This is categorically untrue.  The Jewish National Fund began buying land in Palestine in 1903 from absentee Turks to give to the Jewish people, and when they started showing up, well, we know the rest.    See for example the Jaffa riots of 1921, the Hebron massacre of 1929 and the Arab revolt of 1936-1939. 

https://www.jnf.org/our-history

 

 

[GW Hayduke 1953]

6 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

I don't know if it is possible for Israel's military to remove Hamas.  Military action is going to kill more civilians and breed more hate and extremists, which will further empower Hamas. It is going to further degrade the education and economic systems of Palestine, which is going to breed more extremists and further empower Hamas.  Maybe eventually all the Palestinians are dead or pushed out.  That might get rid of Hamas from Palestine - if there are no people left.  

I'm not sure Israel's Likud Party, Bibi, and other far-right elements in Israel want to get rid of Hamas.  Hamas provides a powerful boogeyman for the far-right and allows them to hold a lot of political power.  I don't think it is a coincidence that the primary policies of the Likud party are settlements, blockade, and military action - the things that breed Hamas.  I see this the same way I understand the GOP's refusal to help fix our immigration system - spooky brown sub-humans provide political power for both the GOP and Likud.

I think the best way to remove a far-right extremist political organization from any population is to create an environment that allows another political organization to take over and maintain control.  This is going to be hard because almost anyone educated or successful left Palestine a long time ago.  Hamas has been controlling the education system in Palestine for almost two decades.  The Palestinian economy has been in shambles for longer.

I think we remove Hamas from Palestine the same way we remove Trumpism from the US.  Increase the education and economic outlook of the population.  Give them something to believe in and live for that doesn't include extremism.  Give them a sanitized/regulated information space.  Provide them access to health care and birth control. I think this would require action by the UN and a significant investment by the international community.   

Maybe after Israel destroys much of Palestine and kills a ton of people, the UN can step in - implement a hard border with Israel, remove Israel's blockade, and rebuild and invest.  The UN can prop up a non-Hamas organization in the beginning and with enough time and investment - maybe a generation or two - Palestine can be self sufficient.  Obviously, Israel would need to reverse all their far-right policies.

I think any non-Hamas organization would constantly be undermined by far-right elements in Israel and other countries in the region.  The UN and US would need to be serious for it to work.  The US would probably need to pull support for Israel if Likud or other far-right Israeli parties aren't removed or gain power again.  

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

Palestinians Speak the Language of Violence Israel Taught Them

The indiscriminate shootings of Israelis by Hamas and other Palestinian resistance organizations, the kidnapping of civilians, the barrage of rockets into Israel, drone attacks on a variety of targets from tanks to automated machine gun nests, are the familiar language of the Israeli occupier. Israel has spoken this blood-soaked language of violence to the Palestinians since Zionist militias seized more than 78 percent of historic Palestine, destroyed some 530 Palestinian villages and cities and killed about 15,000 Palestinians in more than 70 massacres. Some 750,000 Palestinians were ethnically cleansed between 1947 and 1949 to create the state of Israel in 1948.

Israel’s response to these armed incursions will be a genocidal assault on Gaza. Israel will kill dozens of Palestinians for every Israeli killed. Hundreds of Palestinians have already died in Israel air assaults since the launch of “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” on Saturday morning, which left 700 Israelis dead. 

Prime Minister Netanyahu warned Palestinians in Gaza on Sunday to “leave now,” because Israel is going to “turn all Hamas hiding places into rubble.”

But where are Palestinians in Gaza supposed to go? Israel and Egypt blockade the land borders. There is no exit by air or sea, which are controlled by Israel. 

The collective retribution against innocents is a familiar tactic employed by colonial rulers. We used it against Native Americans and later in the Philippines and Vietnam. The Germans used it against the Herero and Namaqua in Namibia. The British in Kenya and Malaya. The Nazis used it in the areas they occupied in the Soviet Union, Eastern and Central Europe. Israel follows the same playbook. Death for death. Atrocity for atrocity. But it is always the occupier who initiates this macabre dance and trades piles of corpses for higher piles of corpses.

This is not to defend the war crimes by either side. It is not to rejoice in the attacks. I have seen enough violence in the Israeli occupied territories, where I covered the conflict for seven years, to loathe violence. But this is the familiar denouement to all settler-colonial  projects. Regimes implanted and maintained by violence engender violence. The Haitian war of liberation. The Mau Mau in Kenya. The African National Congress in South Africa. These uprisings do not always succeed, but they follow familiar patterns. The Palestinians, like all colonized people, have a right to armed resistance under international law.   

Israel never had any interest in an equitable settlement with the Palestinians. It built an apartheid state and has steadily absorbed larger and larger tracts of Palestinian land in a slow motion campaign of ethnic cleansing. It turned Gaza in 2007 into the world’s largest open air prison.

What does Israel, or the world community, expect? How can you trap 2.3 million people in Gaza, half of whom are unemployed, in one of the most densely populated spots on the planet for 16 years, reduce the lives of its residents, half of whom are children, to a subsistencelevel, deprive them of basic medical supplies, food, water and electricity, use attack aircraft, artillery, mechanized units, missiles, naval guns and infantry units to randomly slaughter unarmed civilians and not expect a violent response? Israel is currently carrying out waves of aerial assaults on Gaza, preparing a ground invasion and has cut the power to Gaza, which usually only operates two to four hours per day.

Many of the resistance fighters who infiltrated into Israel undoubtedly knew they would be killed. But like resistance fighters in other wars of liberation they decided that if they could not choose how they would live, they would choose how they would die.

I was a close friend of Alina Margolis-Edelmanwho was part of the armed resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in World War II. Her husband, Marek Edelman, was the deputy commander of the uprising and the only leader to survive the war. The Nazis had sealed 400,000 Polish Jews inside the Warsaw Ghetto. The trapped Jews died in the thousands, from starvation, disease and indiscriminate violence. When the Nazis began to transport the remaining Jews to the extermination camps the resistance fighters fought back. None expected to survive.

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Edelman, after the war, condemned Zionism as a racist ideology used to justify the theft of Palestinian land. He sided with the Palestinians, supported their armed resistance and met frequently with Palestinians leaders. He thundered against Israel’s appropriation of the Holocaust to justify its repression of the Palestinian people. While Israel dined out on the mythology of the ghetto uprising, it treated the only surviving leader of the uprising, who refused to leave Poland, as a pariah. Edelman understood that the lesson of the Holocaust and the ghetto uprising was not that Jews are morally superior or eternal victims. History, Edelman said, belongs to everyone. The oppressed, including the Palestinians, had a right to fight for equality, dignity and liberty.

“To be a Jew means always being with the oppressed and never the oppressors,” Edelmansaid.

The Warsaw uprising has long inspired the Palestinians. Representatives of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) used to lay a wreath at the annual commemoration of the uprising in Poland at the Warsaw Ghetto monument.

The more violence the colonizer expends to subdue the occupied, the more it transforms itself into a monster. The current government of Israel is populated by Jewish extremists, fanatic Zionists and religious bigots who are dismantling Israeli democracy and calling for the wholesale expulsion or murder of Palestinians, including those who live inside Israel.

The Israeli philosopher Yeshayahu Leibowitz, whom Isiah Berlin called “the conscience of Israel,” warned that if Israel did not separate church and state it would give rise to a corrupt rabbinate that would warp Judaism into a fascistic cult.

“Religious nationalism is to religion what National Socialism was to socialism,” said Leibowitz, who died in 1994.

He understood that the blind veneration of the military, especially after the 1967 war that captured Egypt's Sinai, Gaza, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) and Syria's Golan Heights, was dangerous and would lead to the ultimate destruction of Israel, along with any hope of democracy.

“Our situation will deteriorate to that of a second Vietnam, to a war in constant escalation without prospect of ultimate resolution,” he warned.

He foresaw that “the Arabs would be the working people and the Jews the administrators, inspectors, officials, and police — mainly secret police. A state ruling a hostile population of 1.5 million to 2 million foreigners would necessarily become a secret-police state, with all that this implies for education, free speech and democratic institutions. The corruption characteristic of every colonial regime would also prevail in the State of Israel. The administration would have to suppress Arab insurgency on the one hand and acquire Arab Quislings on the other. There is also good reason to fear that the Israel Defense Force, which has been until now a people’s army, would, as a result of being transformed into an army of occupation, degenerate, and its commanders, who will have become military governors, resemble their colleagues in other nations.”

He saw that prolonged occupation of the Palestinians would inevitably spawn “concentration camps.”

“Israel,” he said, “would not deserve to exist, and it will not be worthwhile to preserve it.”

The next stage of this struggle will be a massive campaign of industrial slaughter in Gaza by Israel, which has already begun. Israel is convinced greater levels of violence will finally crush Palestinian aspirations. Israel is mistaken. The terror Israel inflicts is the terror it will get.

Share

 

https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/palestinians-speak-the-language-of

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

‘A second Nakba’: Echoes of 1948, as Israel orders Palestinians to leave
Thousands of people have moved to southern Gaza after the order, but others say there is no place safe from Israel’s bombings and that they would rather die at home.

Gaza City, Gaza – Ahmed al-Saadi and his family have so far escaped the Israeli bombing campaign that has levelled entire neighbourhoods and killed more than 1,900 people in the Gaza Strip since last Saturday.

But after they sought refuge in a United Nations school, that too was attacked from the air – multiple times, said al-Saadi.

“Some people were killed. If schools are not safe, then where do we go? Where can an entire population seek safety?” he asked.

Al-Saadi’s question is at the centre of a growing mix of desperation and defiance in the blockaded coastal enclave, as Israel prepares for a ground assault on Gaza.

Israel has issued a military order for northern and central Gaza residents to evacuate their homes, as such areas are now classified by Israel as a “war zone”. On Thursday night, the order gave the people of Gaza, and even UN personnel stationed there, just 24 hours to vacate.

The Israeli military distributed pamphlets from the sky and made pre-recorded phone calls to inform residents of their intention to target “terror sites” associated with Hamas and other armed groups.

“You will be able to return to Gaza City only when another announcement permitting it is made,” the military said. “Do not approach the area of the security fence with the State of Israel”.

The United Nations has called the move “impossible” and warned of “catastrophic consequences”, while the government media office in Gaza commented that this Israeli decision unveils the true “criminal face” of Israel.

That order led thousands of people in Gaza to move towards the Strip’s south on Friday.

But Israeli warplanes targeted two trucks and a car at three different points on the Salah al-Din and al-Rashid streets. The vehicles had families who were on their way to the southern Gaza Strip.

At least 70 Palestinians were killed in the attacks, mostly women and children, Gaza’s government media office said, and more than 200 were wounded.

To many Palestinians, the moment echoes the experiences of their ancestors in 1948, when militias and then the army of the newly formed Israel destroyed more than 500 Palestinian villages and towns. Thousands were killed, and more than 750,000 Palestinians were uprooted from their land and forced to flee. Palestinians refer to that period as the Nakba, or catastrophe.

Then too, no one was spared – not women nor children; not the elderly, nor those fleeing Israeli attacks. Those displaced in 1948 have never managed to return. To those who are fleeing under Israeli orders, the possibility of a repeat seems real – if there is anyone left to return in the first place.

One man from the Gharbawi family told a press conference that he was travelling south with more than 20 relatives and members of the Abu Ali family.

“It was mostly women and children,” he said. “I fell unconscious after the first Israeli strike targeted us. I woke up, looked around and saw my own family killed or injured. One girl’s brain was spilling out of her head.”

When the ambulances came to the site, another Israeli air attack struck again.

“I took cover behind a wall,” the man said. “I swear to you, there was a third air strike. It’s as if they want to kill all the women and children.”

Yet, while thousands of people are evacuating, many others refuse to do so – and overall support for armed resistance to Israel’s attacks appears intact. Crowds thronged the streets in different parts of Gaza on Friday, chanting slogans and insisting that they will not leave their homes.

The bombings of the convoys of people leaving for the south have reinforced those sentiments.

“If they are bombing us anyway everywhere, then why should we leave? We are staying home and we want to die at home,” Karam Abu Quta, a resident of Gaza City who refused to evacuate, told Al Jazeera.

Israel has maintained its full blockade on Gaza for a seventh day now, pushing the humanitarian landscape into further de-development and preventing entry of urgent medical equipment and daily life supplies into the enclave.

“They are cutting us off from water, food and electricity, and now they are pushing us to leave our homes. Why are they doing this to us? Is it only because we are Palestinians living in Gaza?” a Gaza City resident told Al Jazeera, expressing feelings of frustration and a widespread sense of injustice among the people.

“This is a second Nakba. But the occupation should understand that we will continue to remain rooted in our land and stand for our just rights of freedom, peace and safety.”

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/14/a-second-nakba-echoes-of-1948-as-israel-orders-palestinians-to-leave

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

As Israel engages in a massive air campaign ahead of an anticipated full-scale ground invasion of the Gaza Strip, Israeli President Isaac Herzog said on Friday that all citizens of Gaza are responsible for the attack Hamas perpetrated in Israel last weekend that left over 1,200 people dead.

“It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Herzog said at a press conference on Friday. “It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true. They could have risen up. They could have fought against that evil regime which took over Gaza in a coup d’etat.”

 

Ironic.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8

[DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt 12301]

7 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Ironic.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8

They're going to kill lots and lots of civilians...elderly, women, and children. We won't see long lists of those children's names on here though.

As others have said, I don't think this is going to play out in Israel's favor over time.

[bernorange 8359]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

Strongly worded letter.  Duh.

[chainsaw 9861]

10 hours ago, Chuckie Finster said:

It is strange to me that you seem more troubled with the potential of some imaginary future incident fueled by radicalized terrorists than the one that actually just occurred.

Well yeah, I worry more about what happens in the US than I do about what happens abroad. Every life is valuable, of course. That's why I condemn indiscriminate killing of hundreds of children on both sides.

[6th Street 6390]

An Israeli airstrike on a Palestinian convoy fleeing northern Gaza on a route reportedly approved by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) killed as many as 70 people, the Hamas-run Palestinian health ministry has said.

The BBC identified at least 12 bodies in the footage, mostly women and children - some of whom appear to be as young as two to five.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12630635/Israeli-airstrike-Gaza-convoy-fleeing-south-route-approved-IDF-kills-70-including-women-children-young-two.html
 

 

[troph 24781]

The Jewish people have known three things their entire existence - displacement, violence and mass murder against them where ever they live, and blame for the violence perpetrated against them.  The Jewish people are known to have suffered the most shocking crimes the world has ever seen against a people. 
 

this time the violence is the Jewish people’s fault despite Hamas - the military of Palestinian people - being one of the world’s most violent and evil terrorist organizations, despite an Arab wide religious system that has scripture directing Muslims  to kill Jews, despite educational system that teaches those kids who have the privilege to learn that the Jews should be eradicated from the Earth. 
 

if we lived near a people who wanted us dead - no exceptions - and you could not tell the militant from the peaceful I doubt we would show the restraint of the Jewish people. Fuck man, our state legislatures are actively outlawing some of us from existing and what violence have we perpetrated? 
 

the blame on the Jewish people for Hamas is gross, it’s soft anti-semitism to be perfectly frank about it because it’s a failure to see that there is NOTHING - NOT ONE GODDAMNED THING - they can do to keep themselves safe and free from violence perpetrated against them simply because they are Jews.

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[chainsaw 9861]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

Maybe they should have acted on the intelligence before allowing the massacre to happen.

[BrickHorn 18217]

UNICEF is reporting that 700+ Palestinian children were killed this week in Gaza. Our whole species fucking sucks. 

[troph 24781]

10 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

And Hamas won’t open their border to the south either. Hamas won’t help their people get out, Hamas and all the support they have around the Arab world and not a single call to the Arab world for help to move innocent people. No instead the Arab world through silence and omission welcome the use of Palestinians as human shields. Either Israel does nothing and suffers more violence or Israel kills civilians in their war against Hamas. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAMAS AND THE ARAB WORLD WANTS just so they can further blame and demonize the Jews. How the world fails to see it is appalling. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[BrickHorn 18217]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

the blame on the Jewish people for Hamas is gross, it’s soft anti-semitism to be perfectly frank about it

With all due respect: fuck you. 

I’m sick of the knee jerk antisemitism accusations being lobbed around. It’s horseshit designed to silence legitimate discussion. No one is blaming “the Jewish people” for anything. At most, some question the actions of the state of Israel and its hard right leadership.