Israel

[chainsaw 9831]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

No instead the Arab world through silence and omission welcome the use of Palestinians as human shields. Either Israel does nothing and suffers more violence or Israel kills civilians in their war against Hamas. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAMAS AND THE ARAB WORLD WANTS just so they can further blame and demonize the Jews. How the world fails to see it is appalling. 

This is mental gymnastics.

[chainsaw 9831]

Just now, BrickHorn said:

With all due respect: fuck you. 

I’m sick of the knee jerk antisemitism accusations being lobbed around. It’s horseshit designed to silence legitimate discussion. No one is blaming “the Jewish people” for anything. At most, some question the actions of the state of Israel and its hard right leadership. 

Many Jews both here and in Israel are disgusted by and denounce what the government is currently doing. Jews are not a monolith. I want to make sure they are recognized and appreciated.

[RomaVicta 29756]

10 hours ago, troph said:

 There is no peace offering that will cause Hamas to abandon their terrorism. 

There are three major stakeholders here - Israel, Palestinians and Hamas. War is never the solution for peace but it’s absurd to ask Israel to do nothing when the military apparatus of your neighbor is Hamas. Their tactics are next level heinous. It’s pretty hard not to say get every last one of them, whatever it takes.

one state or two state solution, real peace, it all needs to come soon but Hamas needs to be eliminated from the equation. And yes Israel must account for its actions in suppressing people and promoting apartheid. But eradicating Hamas just isn’t something they should apologize for.

 

I know you're not advocating this. You illustrate the problem of giving into immediate emotion. It is hard not to say get rid of every last one of them because it sounds like a simple sweeping solution to the problem. Blood calls for blood. The problem is that it never works. 

Will the Israelis lament their decision in time as they realize just what kind of slaughter they're responsible for? Will they wish they'd made their decisions in a more sober mood?

Again, I know I'm not arguing with any point that you advocate.

10 hours ago, Captain Obvious said:

No one's asking for them to stop killing Hamas/apologize for killing Hamas.  The issue is that Israel appears to have jumped straight to "fuck it, if we commit genocide/borderline genocide to eliminate Hamas, tough shit for the rest of Palestine."

Dropping leaflets and giving people one day to try and get out (nevermind the fact that there's nowhere really for them to go) is laughably disingenuous.  Just forgo the faux warning and shoot everything that moves at that point.

Israel has every right to defend itself from Hamas.  Telling us that the only viable defense is the immediate leveling of Gaza and borderline genocide is pure bullshit.

Yes. My lack of imagination about how to respond to the Hamas attacks is not justification for consigning half of Gaza to the sword. 

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

What would be the best way for Israel to remove Hamas? Door to door? 

Same as above. Our lack of a solution doesn't justify Israel not exploring solutions other than running a heavy conventional armed force through a dense civilian population.

2 hours ago, GW Hayduke said:

I think we remove Hamas from Palestine the same way we remove Trumpism from the US.  Increase the education and economic outlook of the population.  Give them something to believe in and live for that doesn't include extremism. 

All that is in place here and not working, my friend.

1 hour ago, DefinitelyNotHollywoodColt said:

They're going to kill lots and lots of civilians...elderly, women, and children. We won't see long lists of those children's names on here though.

As others have said, I don't think this is going to play out in Israel's favor over time.

Excellent point, IMHO. Palestinian LIves Matter. We've grown as callous to the value of their lives as we have been of those Blacks killed and brutalized by police here.

The Mytilenean Debate where the Athenians decide the fate of an island that continually revolts is instructive here, I think. Furious, the Athenians vote terrible punishment for Mytilene. They think it will deter others from revolting.

Quote

It was within the context of this reactionary anger that the Assembly that same day voted to sentence all of the male Mytilenean citizens to death, while the women and children would be sold into slavery. A trireme was dispatched to Mytilene so that Paches could receive and carry out the decree.

The next day, the Athenians reflected upon the brutality of their actions and questioned the merit of a decree which executed the whole population for the crimes of the few. The Mytilenean ambassadors at Athens pushed for a second vote, and an assembly was called in order to reassess the course of action to be taken. 

The Athenians were still angry. Cleon made a speech supporting the carrying out of the punishment as a matter of law and the expedience of deterring further aggressions. (I love the pragmatism of the ancients.) Diodotus responds:

 

Quote

Instead of challenging Cleon's assertion of the guilt of the Mytileneans, however, Diodotus argued that it was not their guilt which was the matter of importance, but instead the interest of Athens.[32] Even if the Mytileneans were guilty, according to Diodotus, they should only have been put to death if the penalty was expedient for the future of Athens.[33] He urged the Athenians to remember that they were "not in a court of justice" and therefore Cleon's argument, while it may have seemed more just, was not appropriate for the setting.[34]

What are the long-term interests of the state? Diodotus makes his finishing point with the same pragmatism:

Quote

Diodotus then proceeded to consider how sparing the people of Mytilene would be most expedient for the future of Athens. He argued that, by imposing the same punishment upon all Mytileneans, rebels would be shown there was no point in repenting or surrendering. This was concerning to the future of Athens, according to Diodotus, because subjected states were an important source of revenue. If they knew there was no mercy shown, no matter when they surrendered, they would fight until the city was in ruins. 

Will Israel's own interests be served by yielding to understandable blood lust? I doubt it.

What should Israel do? Maybe take a beat and try pragmatism. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

12 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Maybe they should have acted on the intelligence before allowing the massacre to happen.

Speaking of information sanitation, here’s some conspiracy bullshit right out in the open and a bit of “if the Jews didn’t want to get murdered, maybe they should have fought back better” thrown in to boot. 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

15 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

An Israeli airstrike on a Palestinian convoy fleeing northern Gaza on a route reportedly approved by the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) killed as many as 70 people, the Hamas-run Palestinian health ministry has said.

The BBC identified at least 12 bodies in the footage, mostly women and children - some of whom appear to be as young as two to five.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12630635/Israeli-airstrike-Gaza-convoy-fleeing-south-route-approved-IDF-kills-70-including-women-children-young-two.html
 

 

Alleged doing a lot of work there. doesn’t look like an air strike. Reported by Hamas controlled media. Because these guys don’t have a history of killing their own people to further their cause. 
 

 

[troph 24548]

12 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

With all due respect: fuck you. 

I’m sick of the knee jerk antisemitism accusations being lobbed around. It’s horseshit designed to silence legitimate discussion. No one is blaming “the Jewish people” for anything. At most, some question the actions of the state of Israel and its hard right leadership. 

I don’t mind discussion - I welcome it - but there is no discussion on this thread from those criticizing Israel’s reaction recognizing the intervening and superseding causes here. 
 

What government on the planet besides Hamas would close their borders to prevent their people from finding safety? What government on the planet besides Hamas would encourage their people to stay knowing bombs and a ground invasion is coming? Plenty use humans as shields but none do it quite as well as Hamas. 
 

put more clearly, I think Hamas wants dead Palestinians, I think Hamas welcomes it, I think they actively do and don’t do things for it to happen so they have more hate to fuel the fire. It’s a fucked up egregious situation that I would not wish on my worst enemy. 
 

I want no war, I want peace, I have no idea how to get there, I honestly think it’s impossible. But I also believe the first line of advocacy and action for the well being of the Palestinian people is Hamas and those governing the Palestinian people. Until they take action, it is my firm belief that the blame first belongs with them, not Israel. And failure to see that is a blind spot. You can call it whatever you want but it’s a blind spot.
 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[troph 24548]

7 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Alleged doing a lot of work there. doesn’t look like an air strike. Reported by Hamas controlled media. Because these guys don’t have a history of killing their own people to further their cause. 
 

 

Shocking. They have no regard for human life. They only hate. They only murder. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

10 minutes ago, troph said:

What government on the planet besides Hamas would close their borders to prevent their people from finding safety?

Am I missing something here?  Gaza is blockaded by Israel and Egypt.

[wildcat09 29187]

18 minutes ago, troph said:

The Jewish people have known three things their entire existence - displacement, violence and mass murder against them where ever they live, and blame for the violence perpetrated against them.  The Jewish people are known to have suffered the most shocking crimes the world has ever seen against a people. 
 

this time the violence is the Jewish people’s fault despite Hamas - the military of Palestinian people - being one of the world’s most violent and evil terrorist organizations, despite an Arab wide religious system that has scripture directing Muslims  to kill Jews, despite educational system that teaches those kids who have the privilege to learn that the Jews should be eradicated from the Earth. 
 

if we lived near a people who wanted us dead - no exceptions - and you could not tell the militant from the peaceful I doubt we would show the restraint of the Jewish people. Fuck man, our state legislatures are actively outlawing some of us from existing and what violence have we perpetrated? 
 

the blame on the Jewish people for Hamas is gross, it’s soft anti-semitism to be perfectly frank about it because it’s a failure to see that there is NOTHING - NOT ONE GODDAMNED THING - they can do to keep themselves safe and free from violence perpetrated against them simply because they are Jews.

Troph, I have a whole lot of respect for you, but this blatant conflation of Israel with the Jewish people is the same shit that Hamas and neo-nazis do. The Israeli state is not the Jewish people and some of its harshest critics, even now, are Jews.

[956 Worldwide 34314]

9 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

Alleged doing a lot of work there. doesn’t look like an air strike. Reported by Hamas controlled media. Because these guys don’t have a history of killing their own people to further their cause. 
 

 

That video does not at all look like high explosives like you see from a missile strike. As you can see from a bunch of Ukraine videos floating around.

Honestly it could easily have been an accidental detonation, fuel is in short supply and people are probably taking it with them.  

[troph 24548]

By the way, our track record killing civilians is appalling. 

432,000 civilians killed in US led wars since 9/11.

we have no room to take high road of criticism here. 

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human#:~:text=Far more of the people,in the fighting since 2001.

fuck war, fuck it straight to hell. People die. But there is a hotter and more evil place in hell for the leaders of a people who refuse to do everything they can to make them as safe as possible and instead actively put them on the front lines. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[chainsaw 9831]

5 minutes ago, troph said:

I don’t mind discussion - I welcome it - but there is no discussion on this thread from those criticizing Israel’s reaction recognizing the intervening and superseding causes here. 
 

What government on the planet besides Hamas would close their borders to prevent their people from finding safety? What government on the planet besides Hamas would encourage their people to stay knowing bombs and a ground invasion is coming? Plenty use humans as shields but none do it quite as well as Hamas. 
 

let me be clear I want no war, I want peace, I have no idea how to get there, I honestly think it’s impossible. But I also believe the first line of advocacy and action for the well being of the Palestinian people is Hamas and those governing the Palestinian people. Until they take action, it is my firm belief that the blame first belongs with them, not Israel. And failure to see that is a blind spot. You can call it whatever you want but it’s a blind spot.
 

Are you familiar with the concept of comparative responsibility? This reminds me of a bar fight where many opportunities to de-escalate were deliberately or naively declined. Both participants bear responsibility for the fight, and the reasons how it started are long forgotten and almost don't matter anymore.

One side might be more drunk than the other, but in this fight, one side is clearly stronger, clearly has more allies, and clearly is in a position to end it peacefully. To me, that has moral implications beyond the practical implications. I believe it is blameworthy to escalate a fight. At some point, it crosses from self-defense to revenge. I'm very troubled by the revelations that the massacre could have been stopped but was not.

[jimmyjazz 45513]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

One side might be more drunk than the other, but in this fight, one side is clearly stronger, clearly has more allies, and clearly is in a position to end it peacefully.

You sure?  I would expect Hamas to attack again were Israel to not retaliate.  Maybe I'm missing your point.

[BrickHorn 18176]

5 minutes ago, troph said:

we have no room to take high road of criticism here.

What the fuck? Because our government took actions that most of us criticize and call out as reckless, we can’t criticize another government when they act similarly? That makes zero sense. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by BrickHorn

[troph 24548]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

Are you familiar with the concept of comparative responsibility? This reminds me of a bar fight where many opportunities to de-escalate were deliberately or naively declined. Both participants bear responsibility for the fight, and the reasons how it started are long forgotten and almost don't matter anymore.

One side might be more drunk than the other, but in this fight, one side is clearly stronger, clearly has more allies, and clearly is in a position to end it peacefully. To me, that has moral implications beyond the practical implications. I believe it is blameworthy to escalate a fight. At some point, it crosses from self-defense to revenge. I'm very troubled by the revelations that the massacre could have been stopped but was not.

Peace is impossible here. You and the critics like you assume the side opposite Israel is rational. While certainly some are those with power are not. 
 

I simply think we cannot fathom our neighbors actively wanting us dead and having arms to do it. Imagine jim spencer weather report giving a daily rocket count. 

[chainsaw 9831]

3 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

You sure?  I would expect Hamas to attack again were Israel to not retaliate.  Maybe I'm missing your point.

They are "retaliating" against innocent children. Over 98% of Gazans are not members of Hamas.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

34 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Maybe they should have acted on the intelligence before allowing the massacre to happen.

“I’m no defender of Hamas, It’s the Jews fault they died because they didn’t prepare enough for the horde of terrorists that flooded their homes and murdered them.”

 

its always their fault when that people go out of their way to massacre them. 

8 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Am I missing something here?  Gaza is blockaded by Israel and Egypt.

I assume she meant Hamas was blocking civilians inside Gaza from evacuating south, not the borders aspect, and misspoke. 

[troph 24548]

2 minutes ago, BrickHorn said:

What the fuck? Because our government took actions that most of us criticize and call out as reckless, we can’t criticize another government when they act similarly? That makes zero sense. 

If you recognize the US kills civilians with the best of them and have constantly criticized US led wars and you recognize that much of the problem here is Hamas then you are being consistent. But be honestly, very few are. And in the criticism of Israeli military action there is a vacuum of criticism over the utter failure of the Arab world to truly help Palestinians and the vast majority of the blame here is with them. 

[chainsaw 9831]

1 minute ago, troph said:

Peace is impossible here.

That's a frequent talking point, but tends to be little more than a racist canard about Arabs. If that were true, why do so many Israelis disapprove of the genocide?

[troph 24548]

Why is Egypt blockading Gaza? Because they don’t give a shit about Palestinians. Wrong brand of Islam, terrorists occupy Gaza. Fear they will have to absorb them permanently, and the list goes on. But that’s Israel’s fault.

hamas diverts humanitarian aid to their leadership and war machine. Whose fault is that? 
 

the list goes on and on and on and on.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

They are "retaliating" against innocent children. Over 98% of Gazans are not members of Hamas.

You keep repeating that stat, after admitting it’s a number you pulled out of thin air, even though it’s contrary to your own polling data you’ve used, and contrary to other polling showing popular sentiment towards Hamas, and the fact that these were the people they willfully elected. 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's a frequent talking point, but tends to be little more than a racist canard about Arabs. If that were true, why do so many Israelis disapprove of the genocide?

If Hamas and the Palestinians who elected them wanted peace, why haven’t they tried to negotiate it with dozens or opportunities, and their charter mandates genocide? 
 

Genocide is fucking horrible. No even half sane person fucking approves of it. Yes, peace is impossible when only one side wants peace. 

[troph 24548]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's a frequent talking point, but tends to be little more than a racist canard about Arabs. If that were true, why do so many Israelis disapprove of the genocide?

Israel isn’t interested in it either. To be clear though I don’t give a shit about skin color or religion, until Hamas and Hezbollah are gone peace is impossible. You can’t have peace with someone that wants you eradicated from the Earth. 

[956 Worldwide 34314]

6 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

“I’m no defender of Hamas, It’s the Jews fault they died because they didn’t prepare enough for the horde of terrorists that flooded their homes and murdered them.”

 

its always their fault when that people go out of their way to massacre them. 

I assume she meant Hamas was blocking civilians inside Gaza from evacuating south, not the borders aspect, and misspoke. 

“The Jews should have been better at fighting back if they didn’t want to get pogromed,”’ is literal, uncut neo-Nazi shit but people get mad when you point it out because it’s Different when Israel exists. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

They are "retaliating" against innocent children. Over 98% of Gazans are not members of Hamas.

That doesn't mean a "peaceful" approach on Israel's part would end the conflict.

[chainsaw 9831]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

You keep repeating that stat, after admitting it’s a number you pulled out of thin air, even though it’s contrary to your own polling data you’ve used, and contrary to other polling showing popular sentiment towards Hamas, and the fact that these were the people they willfully elected. 

I don't know how much clearer I can be. 40,000 / 2.2M = 1.8 percent. That means over 98% of Gazans aren't in Hamas. No polling required. Do we need to consult AP voters to calculate Ewers' completion percentage?

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

That doesn't mean a "peaceful" approach on Israel's part would end the conflict.

That possibility isn't a license to commit crimes against humanity.

[jimmyjazz 45513]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

That possibility isn't a license to commit crimes against humanity.

Jesus Christ, I didn't say it was.  

[chainsaw 9831]

5 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

If Hamas and the Palestinians who elected them wanted peace, why haven’t they tried to negotiate it with dozens or opportunities, and their charter mandates genocide? 
 

Genocide is fucking horrible. No even half sane person fucking approves of it. Yes, peace is impossible when only one side wants peace. 

Palestinians who elected them? You realize the majority of them are 17 years old and under, right?

[956 Worldwide 34314]

 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

I don't know how much clearer I can be. 40,000 / 2.2M = 1.8 percent. That means over 98% of Gazans aren't in Hamas. No polling required. Do we need to consult AP voters to calculate Ewers' completion percentage?

That possibility isn't a license to commit crimes against humanity.

57% have a positive view of Hamas. They also shelter and protect them. How’re you getting to the 40,000, a head count? Their official online registration? Oh, it’s just the estimates guys carrying guns. Estimated. 
 

I guess all those members of the nazi party that showed up at rallies weren’t Nazis either because they weren’t in the theater. 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

25 minutes ago, troph said:

we have no room to take high road of criticism here.

Yeah no fucking shit, maybe cheering on a very 9/11-like response from Israel ain't it, pal?

[wildcat09 29187]

It's so surreal to see much more open and honest discussion going on in the Israeli media and society about how their own government's policies may have contributed to this and how their response still needs to be proportional than many non-Jewish Americans will tolerate here.

Many immediate family members of those currently being held hostage are publicly stating that they don't want revenge or escalation, and those who lost loved ones in Hamas' attacks are saying their loved ones' wouldn't want to be used to justify mass slaughter, and here and all over the American internet we've got a bunch of Gentiles pretty casually throwing around implicit accusations of anti-Semitism at people for making similar comments.

I don't consider myself to be Jewish, but my dad was and half of my family is. That half of the family is fewer than ten people because of the holocaust. But the Judaism they practice, and the Judaism that millions of Jews around the world practice, completely rejects the thinking being embraced by many in this thread (including many whom I expect better from): that Jews and Gentiles cannot co-exist peacefully, that Jews are not part of the global human community, but some insular other.  Netanyahu and Likud have done their fucking damnedest to convince the rest of the world that that's actually true as a twisted strategy of self defense, and we can see now that this made Israel less safe, not moreso.  Because that nationalistic thinking is at its core fascist, and fascist thinking will always endanger Jews, it will not make them safer.  

[SydneyCarton 47809]

50 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Palestinians who elected them? You realize the majority of them are 17 years old and under, right?

It’s actually 40%. That’s not a majority. What we’re you saying about simple math?

You do bring up a point. Almost everyone who has elected them has died under their leadership, and they don’t hold new elections. 
 

and yet their still viewed favorably. Weird. 

45 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah no fucking shit, maybe cheering on a very 9/11-like response from Israel ain't it, pal?

I haven’t seen anyone cheering what’s going to happen. That’s disingenuous and you know it. Everyone thinks it’s horrific. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[chainsaw 9831]

2 minutes ago, SydneyCarton said:

hold new elections.

How would that even happen? All these child murders are accomplishing is creating a surge in demand for protection from the aggressors, regardless where that protection comes from or what strings may be attached to it. Think Lord of the Flies, too, because like I said, most of these people are under 20.

[troph 24548]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Yeah no fucking shit, maybe cheering on a very 9/11-like response from Israel ain't it, pal?

I haven’t advocating anything other than it’s not my place to tell israel what to do and to advocate that folks recognize that blaming Israel is easier than recognizing the incomprehensible acts of Hamas coming and going. There is no worse terrorist organization on the planet.

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[Brian Fantana 6654]

Just now, troph said:

I haven’t advocating anything other than it’s not my place and to advocate that folks recognize that blaming Israel is easier than recognizing the incomprehensible acts of Hamas coming and going. There is no worse terrorist organization on the planet.

Except for the existence of the American and Israeli governments, I might agree.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

Just now, chainsaw said:

How would that even happen? All these child murders are accomplishing is creating a surge in demand for protection from the aggressors, regardless where that protection comes from or what strings may be attached to it. Think Lord of the Flies, too, because like I said, most of these people are under 20.

Ah yes. It’s the Jews fault Hamas can’t hold elections because at all because everyone is too young because Hamas got all the adults killed.
 

You’re citing demographics of now for why Hamas hasn’t been “able” to hold elections at any point since 2006. Because they don’t really want to be a theocratic autocracy, right, that’s why elections aren’t held! /snacks forehead. 

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

Ah yes. It’s the Jews fault Hamas can’t hold elections because at all because everyone is too young because Hamas got all the adults killed.
 

You’re citing demographics of now for why Hamas hasn’t been “able” to hold elections at any point since 2006. Because they don’t really want to be a theocratic autocracy, right, that’s why elections aren’t held! /snacks forehead. 

I don't understand how you could read and like my prior post and keep posting this shit. This shit is what I was talking about.

[troph 24548]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

Except for the existence of the American and Israeli governments, I might agree.

You consider the US government a terrorist organization?

[Brian Fantana 6654]

1 minute ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't understand how you could read and like my prior post and keep posting this shit. This shit is what I was talking about.

Not to mention "Hamas got all the adults killed" is just an absolutely disgusting comment with no intention other than to completely absolve Israel of its actions.\

All these motherfuckers that keep crying anti-semitism when people offer legitimate criticism of the actions of the Israeli government are unserious people.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

3 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I don't understand how you could read and like my prior post and keep posting this shit. This shit is what I was talking about.

 Because I can recognize and acknowledge that Israel under Bibi has done horrible shit, and is about to do really really horrible shit, while still being able to acknowledge that Palestine has had decades of opportunities to try to find peace in some form, rejects it every time out of hand, and Israel is surrounded on multiple sides by people who’s sole stated purpose is to exterminate them. 
 

and the comments I’m making regarding this are a sarcastic formula in response to the persistent opinion of some on this thread to blame the Jews for EVERYTHING. Including on just this page blaming them for the terroirs attack that was just perpetrated on them. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[956 Worldwide 34314]

5 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

 

I don't consider myself to be Jewish, but my dad was and half of my family is. That half of the family is fewer than ten people because of the holocaust. But the Judaism they practice, and the Judaism that millions of Jews around the world practice, completely rejects the thinking being embraced by many in this thread (including many whom I expect better from): that Jews and Gentiles cannot co-exist peacefully, that Jews are not part of the global human community, but some insular other.  Netanyahu and Likud have done their fucking damnedest to convince the rest of the world that that's actually true as a twisted strategy of self defense, and we can see now that this made Israel less safe, not moreso.  Because that nationalistic thinking is at its core fascist, and fascist thinking will always endanger Jews, it will not make them safer.  

I think you have to drill down from the general to the specific.  It’s difficult to see, in this precise instance, how the parties come to a modus vivendi.  And I’d say that Israel for sure has the upper hand in firepower and money and so has room to give. But Hamas has an ideology that is so strident that it’s hard to see how any meaningful dialogue can happen as long as they are in control. And it’s hard to see how they are removed without a massive amount of collateral casualties and personal tragedy. 
 

It’s not anti-Semitic to call on Israel to abide by the laws of war, or to even take a strict pacifist stance. But it’s more than a bit anti-Semitic to engage in conspiracy theorizing that a Jewish state allowed the biggest pogrom since WWII happen to its own people. 

[wildcat09 29187]

Just now, SydneyCarton said:

 Because I can recognize and acknowledge that Israel under Bibi has done horrible shit, and is about to do really really horrible shit, while still being able to acknowledge that Palestine has had decades of opportunities to try to find peace in some form, rejects it every time out of hand, Israel is surrounded on multiple sides by people who’s sole stated purpose is to exterminate them. 

No man, I specifically mean you clearly implicitly accusing chainsaw of anti-Semitism because he's critical of the Israeli government.  You're better than Icono, act like it.

[Tonesky 907]

4 minutes ago, troph said:

I haven’t advocating anything other than it’s not my place to tell israel what to do and to advocate that folks recognize that blaming Israel is easier than recognizing the incomprehensible acts of Hamas coming and going. There is no worse terrorist organization on the planet.

 

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Except for the existence of the American and Israeli governments, I might agree.

 

1 minute ago, troph said:

You consider the US government a terrorist organization?

And the Israeli government, and both worse than Hamas….
 

How does anyone have a rational dialogue with this?

[Brian Fantana 6654]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

You consider the US government a terrorist organization?

Are you asking for a literal match by the book definition or do you just want me to point to Iraq?

[Brian Fantana 6654]

1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

 

 

And the Israeli government, and both worse than Hamas….
 

How does anyone have a rational dialogue with this?

Are you saying the Israeli government doesn't regularly engage in acts of terrorism against Palestinians? Might want to be careful how you answer.

[SydneyCarton 47809]

14 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Not to mention "Hamas got all the adults killed" is just an absolutely disgusting comment with no intention other than to completely absolve Israel of its actions.\

All these motherfuckers that keep crying anti-semitism when people offer legitimate criticism of the actions of the Israeli government are unserious people.

This is such bad faith horseshit. I’ve never accused anyone here of anti-semitism. And I’ve never absolved Israel of what is about to happen, nor will I. But the irony of poster who literally blame Palestinians for NOTHING in the last 75 years is fucking rich. At least some posters here are willing to admit it’s a complicate issue and escalated because both sides have done bad things. 
 

You just said America was a worse terrorist organization than Hamas, who puts their headquarters in Hospitals. But you accuse other people of being unserious? That is mind blowing. America has fucked up so much shit in this world, as has every country, but it has done some good. Name one good thing Hamas has done. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by SydneyCarton

[troph 24548]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think you have to drill down from the general to the specific.  It’s difficult to see, in this precise instance, how the parties come to a modus vivendi.  And I’d say that Israel for sure has the upper hand in firepower and money and so has room to give. But Hamas has an ideology that is so strident that it’s hard to see how any meaningful dialogue can happen as long as they are in control. And it’s hard to see how they are removed without a massive amount of collateral casualties and personal tragedy. 
 

It’s not anti-Semitic to call on Israel to abide by the laws of war, or to even take a strict pacifist stance. But it’s more than a bit anti-Semitic to engage in conspiracy theorizing that a Jewish state allowed the biggest pogrom since WWII happen to its own people. 

It’s really hard to abide by the rules of war when your opponent not only blends into civilian society but actively encourages civilians to be active targets. 
 

there are going to be dozens of suicide bombers in Gaza. Hamas is going to come out of the tunnels and blow themselves up. 
 

I don’t think we can fathom how impossible the situation is for Israel here. I don’t think the US has seen anything like this even in the 20 years of urban warfare we’ve been engaged in. 

[troph 24548]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Are you asking for a literal match by the book definition or do you just want me to point to Iraq?

It was a rhetorical question. You said the US government is worse than Hamas. 

[Tonesky 907]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Are you saying the Israeli government doesn't regularly engage in acts of terrorism against Palestinians? Might want to be careful how you answer.

Not willing to play that DEFINITION game. By your standard, all human beings are criminals, dishonest, etc. 

The US and Israeli government/militaries have done indefensible awful things. They are not terrorist organizations.