Israel

[Anastasis 23375]

16 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Terrorism is using violence against innocent people to spread fear in the hopes of advancing a political aim.

You have to be a real dishonest piece of shit to argue that this is not exactly what Israeli settlers and the IDF have been doing in the occupied territories for decades. 

[Brian Fantana 6654]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

Well, it was terrorism when Zionist terrorists blow up the King David hotel. And when Israeli illegal settlers shoot Palestinian neighbors in the hopes they’ll run away and abandon their homes, that’s absolutely terrorism. 

What you’ve described above is forcible displacement, and if/when it’s done with the aim of creating a homogenous state then it’s ethnic cleansing. Those are all crimes enough.

It's not really a useful argument, tbh. I'm gonna step away for a while.

[troph 24548]

6 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

It's incredible to me that we've reached a point that we're arguing whether or not state-sponsored ethnic cleansing is terrorism or not. When Israeli settlers illegally, forcibly displace Palestinians from their homes in the West Bank, it is an act of violence that is backed and supported by the government of Israel, which is what makes it state-sponsored terrorism.

You will literally say anything to ensure the word terrorism only describes Arabs.

I’m not sure it’s terrorism either but putting aside semantics governments can do atrocious things. There is still a massive difference between a terrorist organization like Hamas and the US or Israel and that distinction is made acknowledging these two governments have done some really really bad shit. The fact is these governments do good things for their people too, Hamas does not. Hezbollah does not. Other terrorist organizations throughout the world do not.

you can have harsh criticism for a government while recognizing the sharp distinction between a legitimate government and a terrorist organization 

[Anastasis 23375]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

 I'm gonna step away for a while.

This is the right idea. It’s a beautiful day out. 

[6th Street 6340]

26 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Ethnic cleansing isn’t terrorism, either. For that matter, neither was the Holocaust. All the bad things states do to kill people aren’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is targeting a military object but kills a lot of civilians isn’t terrorism. A strategic bombing campaign that is designed to terrify the population in the hopes they’ll stop fighting is terrorism. 
 

Terrorism is using violence against innocent people to spread fear in the hopes of advancing a political aim.  This is the Israeli government simply destroying shit and allowing Israelis to take it. Which is a crime. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

This is the right idea. It’s a beautiful day out. 

Sun went down 3 hours ago, were you not paying attention?

[956 Worldwide 34314]

6 minutes ago, 6th Street said:

Ethnic cleansing/forced population transfer is a crime against humanity and arguably more serious than terrorism, not sure where you’re getting the “it’s OK” message from. 

[Anastasis 23375]

6 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Sun went down 3 hours ago, were you not paying attention?

Sacrificed a small child and a donkey in the backyard and it came back. 

[Huckleberry 32685]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

Ethnic cleansing/forced population transfer is a crime against humanity and arguably more serious than terrorism, not sure where you’re getting the “it’s OK” message from. 

As several have been so happy to point out, Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people. So they're the government. So their attacks aren't terrorism according to your twisted view, they're just war/an invasion. 

You've made some good points and some terrible ones. This is one of the terrible ones. The Israeli government has absolutely committed terroristic acts. So has the United States government. So have many governments. Most, in fact, of the most powerful nations in history have done so. 

[Bullneck 18976]

FWIW I would expect Israel to blockade Gaza until 1) they get the hostages back, 2) they've killed all of the leaders of Hamas.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bullneck

[956 Worldwide 34314]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

As several have been so happy to point out, Hamas was elected by the Palestinian people. So they're the government. So their attacks aren't terrorism according to your twisted view, they're just war/an invasion. 

You've made some good points and some terrible ones. This is one of the terrible ones. The Israeli government has absolutely committed terroristic acts. So has the United States government. So have many governments. Most, in fact, of the most powerful nations in history have done so. 

The thing is that definitions matter if you want to get serious about combatting them. So, for example— Hamas’ attacks against military targets were not terroristic in nature while the kibbutz attack was. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has included terrorist acts but the invasion itself was the crime of aggression and not terrorism.  Israel has committed aces of terror, and Israeli settlers have too. Some U.S. bombing campaigns can be described as terror bombings, many more cannot be.  Nazis committed acts of terror against Jews and others, but what happened at Sobibor and Treblinka was the crime of genocide. 
 

As for Israel, their government and settlers have absolutely committed terrorism, but not all of their crimes are terror. Some have been even more serious. 

[jimmyjazz 45513]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The thing is that definitions matter if you want to get serious about combatting them. So, for example— Hamas’ attacks against military targets were not terroristic in nature while the kibbutz attack was. Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has included terrorist acts but the invasion itself was the crime of aggression and not terrorism.  Israel has committed aces of terror, and Israeli settlers have too. Some U.S. bombing campaigns can be described as terror bombings, many more cannot be.  Nazis committed acts of terror against Jews and others, but what happened at Sobibor and Treblinka was the crime of genocide. 
 

As for Israel, their government and settlers have absolutely committed terrorism, but not all of their crimes are terror. Some have been even more serious. 

Oof.  This comes across as an attempt to distract or deflect as much as anything.

[956 Worldwide 34314]

1 minute ago, jimmyjazz said:

Oof.  This comes across as an attempt to distract or deflect as much as anything.

Not at all, the definitions matter deeply especially if you ever want to pursue any sort of accountability against the actors. And it matters deeply if you’re trying to build any sort of coalition or consensus to take action 

[F250 28659]

1 hour ago, Chuckie Finster said:

I have been incredibly vocal in the last few years about how Judaism and Israeli are not synonyms. Hearing Trump assume that he’ll win the Jewish vote purely because of something he did for Israel made my skin crawl. There’s a clear and obvious distinction between the two that can and should be made.

That being said, from what I’ve seen over the last week, the distinction is not important to most who are pro-Palestinian. A Jewish teacher in France was murdered yesterday. Jewish (not Israeli) museums in America hosted pro-Palestinian protests this week. Local Jewish owned business are getting negative review bombed by Palestinian sympathizers.

We all absolutely understand and appreciate the difference, we just also acknowledge that the opposition generally doesn’t give a fuck.

I understand this to an extent. As an ethnic Mexican I can separate American policies towards Mexico from more insidious policies that are primarily targeted at an ethnicity rather than nations south of the border.

I would also add that I don't hold you or Troph responsible as Texans for the actions of Abbott and the Texas legislature despite that government having a majority support by the citizens of Texas.

All of these things require nuance.

[troph 24548]

10 minutes ago, F250 said:

I understand this to an extent. As an ethnic Mexican I can separate American policies towards Mexico from more insidious policies that are primarily targeted at an ethnicity rather than nations south of the border.

I would also add that I don't hold you or Troph responsible as Texans for the actions of Abbott and the Texas legislature despite that government having a majority support by the citizens of Texas.

All of these things require nuance.

I take my cues from those I know. There is a ton of overlap between Israel and the Jewish people from the Jewish folks I know - none of whom have ever lived in Israel. They think of Israel in a way that I do not see from people of other ethnicities who a live in the US or Canada and have never lived in the country most known for their ethnicity.   I don’t know how to describe it but it’s notably different. But within that group many are critical of the Israeli government for many things, but I’ll also say a lot of that has now been tempered and silenced in wake of the Hamas attacks. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by troph

[SydneyCarton 47809]

2 hours ago, BrickHorn said:

Let’s be clear here. @chainsaw did not write what you attribute to him. In particular, he never blamed “the Jews.” He used the pronoun “they,” in response to this post which was about “Israel:”

His point was that Israel - a state, not an ethnic or religious group - could have done more to defend itself and its people, given what he thinks they knew at the time.

I’m not arguing that he’s right about that. But your paraphrasing of his statement is inaccurate and it unjustly implies a much darker meaning than I read in his post. 

First, you’re right, I’ve been using Jews and Israel interchangeably in this thread and thats wrong, and my mistake. I’ll own that.   
 

That being said, in this context, it is my opinion that subbing Israel for Jews doesn’t really make his comment any less dark. “If Israel doesn’t want their civilians slaughtered and raped, they should probably do a better job gathering intelligence” isn’t exactly an insight without implication and cruelty. 
 

Brisket’s last post verbalized my feelings very well. I’ve never once defended what has happened under Netanyahu’s government since 2006. He’s culpable. And so is Hamas, the government whose charter is Jewish genocide. But I don’t understand a mindset where folks fight to explain away the horrible actions Palestinians, because of what they’ve been subjected to, but act as if Israelis and Jews at large haven’t been subjected to atrocities.  As recently as last week. 
 

im also going to peace out of this for a bit. I’ve been accused of some grisly shit by some posters here the last couple of days, and I’ve gone out of my way to not get personal in response, and even show restraint, as much as I’m capable of such. I’m legitimately sad for what I know is coming. I hope afterwards the people of Israel are horrified enough to kick out Netanyahu’s government and his shitty path of hatred and elect people to reverse his autocratic policies and move in a better direction. That being said I’m not surprised Israel and any Jews who feel the same are sick and exhausted by always being expected to be the ones to change and work for peace with a group of people who’s leadership hasn’t seemed interested in peace the last 75 years. Not just the last 20, but the last 75. 

 

 

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Oh yeah, I left out fatty.

Don’t forget Poe. 

[Brisketexan 104465]

I take my cues from those I know. There is a ton of overlap between Israel and the Jewish people from the Jewish folks I know - none of whom have ever lived in Israel. They think of Israel in a way that I do not see from people of other ethnicities who a live in the US or Canada and have never lived in the country most known for their ethnicity.   I don’t know how to describe it but it’s notably different. But within that group many are critical of the Israeli government for many things, but I’ll also say a lot of that has now been tempered and silenced in wake of the Hamas attacks. 

Well, yeah…at a major holiday meal, Jews worldwide say “next year, in Jerusalem.”
I’ve never been to a quincenera where any Mexicans say “next year, in Mexico City.”

[InkaUtexas 25426]

3 hours ago, G650 said:

Thank you.

 

I mean, we tolerated it to different degrees and obviously the nobility of what we were doing was a farce. A certain segment of our population that overlaps with Tony Keith tolerated it a lot more.

 

It's old history now, but given all that’s transpired in the past two decades, I still stand by my assertion the first 6 months of Afghanistan were the right call, and everything that followed was a train wreck.

I would say the first three years we were on the right track. I was sitting in the south with my boss. Here comes big army with Bradley's. He looks over and says yep, we lost. 

[G650 13990]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

I would say the first three years we were on the right track. I was sitting in the south with my boss. Here comes big army with Bradley's. He looks over and says yep, we lost. 

Idk man, once Osama got away at Tora Bora, to me it was all over except the crying. Getting to Kabul was good, but then we all know how the story ends at this point

[InkaUtexas 25426]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

Idk man, once Osama got away at Tora Bora, to me it was all over except the crying. Getting to Kabul was good, but then we all know how the story ends at this point

Nah, even in 2008 we were doing good things. And Kabul was at the end of the day irrelevant. The south and borders were the key and we went big army and static. 

[G650 13990]

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Nah, even in 2008 we were doing good things. And Kabul was at the end of the day irrelevant. The south and borders were the key and we went big army and static. 

We going to have to agree to disagree

[InkaUtexas 25426]

4 minutes ago, G650 said:

We going to have to agree to disagree

A lot will. How did you like Afghanistan? 

[Tonesky 907]

2 hours ago, troph said:

I’m not sure it’s terrorism either but putting aside semantics governments can do atrocious things. There is still a massive difference between a terrorist organization like Hamas and the US or Israel and that distinction is made acknowledging these two governments have done some really really bad shit. The fact is these governments do good things for their people too, Hamas does not. Hezbollah does not. Other terrorist organizations throughout the world do not.

you can have harsh criticism for a government while recognizing the sharp distinction between a legitimate government and a terrorist organization 

“You have to be a real dishonest piece of shit to” sidestep this and demand agreement that the US and Israeli governments are terrorist organizations. 

[GW Hayduke 1950]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

The thing is that definitions matter if you want to get serious about combatting them.

Suggest you look up the definition of anti-semitism and only use accordingly.  Using that term freely based on your feelings and emotional state rather than the actual words you are responding to, only serve to dilute and weaken the ability to combat true anti-semitism IMO. 

I don’t know if there is a similar danger with misusing the term terrorism.  It is mostly used by media and nation states to dehumanize the enemy, justify disproportionate responses, to justify large civilian sufferings/casualties, and to justify large military budgets, e.g., the war on terrorism. 
 

Obviously a nation state should protect itself against any form of attack (whether labeled terrorism, direct military attack, or social media manipulation), so I don’t see the use of the term terrorism as critical.  If a civilian bus is bombed, the state should respond accordingly whether it is defined as terrorism or not. The DOJ and FBI can parse definitions during law enforcement actions, but they aren’t going to be affected by the overuse of the term. 
 

But I will concede that right wing terrorism is a growing threat in the US, so maybe the overuse of the term weakens the ability of our population to properly respond.  So I agree that when dealing with US domestic acts of violence, a proper use of the term terrorism is important, but when dealing with foreign policy and justifying military actions, probably not

[G650 13990]

20 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

A lot will. How did you like Afghanistan? 

I wasn't in Afghanistan, though I have many close friends that did a lot of time there. I'm just speaking to wisdom of what our mission was. Obviously a discussion for a whole 'nother topic there.

I absolutely want to be clear that I am massively proud of everyone who was there though doing work, the last thing I'd want is anyone to think I was belittling that in any way.

[Anastasis 23375]

Some of you guys need to actually break bread with people from the cultures and ethnicities that you seek to draw cartoons of. You might learn something about their views of the situation and the players involved. 

[troph 24548]

6 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some of you guys need to actually break bread with people from the cultures and ethnicities that you seek to draw cartoons of. You might learn something about their views of the situation and the players involved.

the irony of this given some of your posting history is rich. 

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

And then a few hours later

This is a very dangerous moment. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[DDD Dad 14167]

Pedantic Terrorism and Anti-Semitism definitional talk not going away. 

[DDD Dad 14167]

17 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Some of you guys need to actually break bread with people from the cultures and ethnicities that you seek to draw cartoons of. You might learn something about their views of the situation and the players involved. 

 

10 minutes ago, troph said:

the irony of this given some of your posting history is rich. 

 

[troph 24548]

3 minutes ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And then a few hours later

This is a very dangerous moment. 

It’s what some of us speculated was going on when the attacks first occurred. Connections to Russia/Ukraine are nearly assured at this point. 

[Anastasis 23375]

33 minutes ago, troph said:

the irony of this given some of your posting history is rich. 

There is no irony there troph, however much you may wish to manufacturer it for rhetorical value. Pretty lazy actually. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by Anastasis

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

24 minutes ago, troph said:

It’s what some of us speculated was going on when the attacks first occurred. Connections to Russia/Ukraine are nearly assured at this point. 

I speculated the same thing. Biden and Blinken are clearly pursuing a primary objective  of keeping the conflict local, but that may not be possible. 

[troph 24548]

Just now, Anastasis said:

There is no irony there troph, however much you may wish to manufacturer it for rhetorical value. 

You need to go sit down and break bread with trans kids and their parents bro. You are top five worst offenders on this board. 
 

frankly, I don’t think anyone on this thread wants this violence, if anyone does they are in an extremely small minority.
 

I think perspectives are skewed (I’m sure I’m subject to that too) but I think most see the impossibility of a positive outcome for the Palestinian  civilians and for some of the Israeli civilians.

I think the cause of that impossibility is being debated but no one - or only a very small minority of posters - are treating anyone involved in this conflict as a cartoon. 

[InkaUtexas 25426]

25 minutes ago, troph said:

It’s what some of us speculated was going on when the attacks first occurred. Connections to Russia/Ukraine are nearly assured at this point. 

He lives in Qatar. This shit happens whenever they want. This is a scene for the Arab world, on a Friday. 

[troph 24548]

1 minute ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

I speculated the same thing. Biden and Blinken are clearly pursuing a primary objective  of keeping the conflict local, but that may not be possible. 

If Iran joins holy shit. Seems the US will be under tremendous pressure to engage. And with that the door opens in the East and then three theaters and a world war that won’t be called one. 

[troph 24548]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

He lives in Qatar. This shit happens whenever they want. This is a scene for the Arab world, on a Friday. 

Well folks have been trying to say it’s Hamas only. Maybe it was maybe it wasn’t but it’s about to be Iran too. 

[Anastasis 23375]

1 minute ago, troph said:

You need to go sit down and break bread with trans kids and their parents bro. You are top five worst offenders on this board. 

It’s pretty funny that you run to hide behind your trans deflection on this one. And if you recall in our exchanges re the medical evidence for hormoning up youth, I actually told you that I hope that we could sit at hops and thyme and grab a beer and a bite and talk it over. You told me to never approach you and talk to you in public if I thought I recognized you. So tell me more about irony Troph. Or just fall back to some of that fundamentalist upbringing brain damage that apparently hangs on underneath as it relates to the subject of this particular thread. 

[bernorange 8346]

Iran steps in.  The US steps in.  WW3 begins?

[troph 24548]

Maybe Iran and the US back this down? Can Israel show restraint? They seem hell bent on destroying tunnels, eliminating weaponry, killing Hamas fighters, killing Hamas leaders. 

[Anastasis 23375]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

Having to listen to Anastasis tell me in person about his political views has to fit into the definition of terrorism, right?

Ask @hayden_horn  just tell him to bring better smokes. 

[troph 24548]

21 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

It’s pretty funny that you run to hide behind your trans deflection on this one. And if you recall in our exchanges re the medical evidence for hormoning up youth, I actually told you that I hope that we could sit at hops and thyme and grab a beer and a bite and talk it over. You told me to never approach you and talk to you in public if I thought I recognized you. So tell me more about irony Troph. Or just fall back to some of that fundamentalist upbringing brain damage that apparently hangs on underneath as it relates to the subject of this particular thread. 

I’m not hiding behind shit.  And there’s zero chance I’m sitting down with you precisely because of what you espouse. You think I owe you this sit down so you can tell me I’m wrong or so we can laugh it off over a beer and you can then say you sat down with the trans woman see you aren’t so bad. The fact that I refuse should tell you exactly how FUCKED up your positions are.
 

As for the topic you raised - a mourning Palestinian or Jewish or Israeli family? I’ll sit down … if they would have me. Because you see it’s the oppressed or persecuted that gets to choose whether to have that meeting not the oppressor or the persecutor.

[G650 13990]

 

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Ask @hayden_horn  just tell him to bring better smokes. 

How about some acid

Edited October 14, 2023 by G650

[troph 24548]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

How about some acid

I’d prefer to be stone cold sober so I could leave when I wanted to.

[AnTiM 1656]

So now Iran wants to step in.  Gee whiz, like we were all wondering where in the world could Hamas have gotten thousands of missiles from?

[jimmyjazz 45513]

4 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

Sounds like something Hamas and the Jews should try.

[Anastasis 23375]

11 minutes ago, G650 said:

 

How about some acid

Shit would get really real. 

[G650 13990]

10 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

[Bozo_Casanova 26232]

 

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

He lives in Qatar. This shit happens whenever they want. This is a scene for the Arab world, on a Friday. 

This is a scene for the first world, on the jewish sabbath

Edited October 15, 2023 by Bozo_Casanova

[Anastasis 23375]

 

call back to the discussion on this thread