Israel

[Anastasis 23375]

1 hour ago, troph said:

I’m not hiding behind shit.  And there’s zero chance I’m sitting down with you precisely because of what you espouse. You think I owe you this sit down so you can tell me I’m wrong or so we can laugh it off over a beer and you can then say you sat down with the trans woman see you aren’t so bad. The fact that I refuse should tell you exactly how FUCKED up your positions are.

I don’t think you owe me anything. I think that you contort yourself and manufacture irony while it drips out of your pores. 

[chainsaw 9831]

4 hours ago, SydneyCarton said:

“If Israel doesn’t want their civilians slaughtered and raped, they should probably do a better job gathering intelligence” isn’t exactly an insight without implication and cruelty.

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

[956 Worldwide 34314]

26 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

“If” is the only word worth paying attention to in this entire screed. Again, pure conspiracy theory on open display. 

[F250 28659]

6 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I’ve never been to a quincenera where any Mexicans say “next year, in Mexico City.”

I've been to one where an old man stood up on a chair and yelled "Viva Monterrey! Viva Rockport!" then his wife yelled "shut up, your drunk."

[Brisketexan 104465]

I've been to one where an old man stood up on a chair and yelled "Viva Monterrey! Viva Rockport!" then his wife yelled "shut up, your drunk."

Just one?

[Aqua Buddha 14489]

5 hours ago, Bozo_Casanova said:

And then a few hours later

This is a very dangerous moment. 

Iran is in no position to project power a thousand miles away.

Them and Hamas' only hope is that Israel plays by a different rulebook than they do.  Israel can level Gaza and we have to carrier groups off the coast giving them the green light.

[NWBuck 8543]

5 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

“Honey, I’ll be home late tonight.  No, not work this time.  I have to meet a stranger from the internet who I always argue with about politics. Yeah, it got pretty heated, so we thought it would be better to find out who the other person is in real life, get some alcohol involved, and then continue our discussion in person.  That’s how you de-escalate the situation.”

[SydneyCarton 47809]

8 hours ago, chainsaw said:

That's not exactly or even remotely what I said.

I'm referring to a specific decision not to act on intelligence that Israel had about this attack. If that is what happened, and one of my loved ones were harmed in this attack, I would consider my government firmly responsible for those harms. True, Hamas is also responsible, but Hamas isn't answerable to me and I was never asked to trust Hamas.

How would the government justify that decision? Did they view these Israelis as a worthwhile sacrifice in exchange for obtaining a pretext to carry out the genocide of Palestinians that the government had been wanting to carry out all along? If so, that ranks among the most callous crimes against humanity to have ever been committed.

That's completely different from a failure of the intelligence agencies. I'm sure those things can happen, but I have a hard time believing it when Israel has so much of our (US and European) money, Israel has one of the most sophisticated surveillance apparatuses that includes untraceable spyware that can be deployed anywhere, and the amount of planning and coordination with hundreds of people who lack anything beyond a 5th grade education doesn't seem possible without there being someone that somehow would have spilled the beans ahead of time, when you consider the fact that, even when you have a small number of smart people who are paranoid about privacy, leaks manage to happen.

Most importantly, in a discussion centered on the moral distinction between self-defense and retribution, we cannot ignore the opportunities Israel had to assume a purely defensive posture.

It’s what you said. Israel was responsible for this because you believe they ignored intelligence. You can hem and haw over my portrayal of your post, but in this instance “this” was the rape and murder of a thousand Israeli citizens, including children. and you believe Israel is responsible. 
 

You obviously believe it. Own it. 

[SydneyCarton 47809]

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“If” is the only word worth paying attention to in this entire screed. Again, pure conspiracy theory on open display. 

I disagree. The whole thing is worth paying attention to, it’s the continued portrayal of an idea this entire thread that’s driven me batshit. Now back to my fucking exile. 

[bernorange 8346]

For @chainsaw et al:

Quote

...
Certainly, the Hamas attacks in Israel were a surprise, just as 9/11 was, but it is premature to label it an intelligence failure. We don’t know yet what Israel’s intelligence agencies such as Shin Bet were saying about Hamas to Israeli policymakers, just as Americans had no idea what the CIA was saying to the Bush administration about al Qaeda’s intentions until at least a year after the 9/11 attacks had happened.

Blaming a lack of intelligence for policy failures is an easy dodge for government officials because, typically, the spy agencies can’t publicly defend themselves on the facts, which are often classified, and, in any event, they work for the policymakers.
...
In her 1962 study, “Pearl Harbor: Warning and Decision,” Roberta Wohlstetter showed how when it came to the Japanese surprise attack on the US naval base on December 7, 1941, separating the “signals” from the “noise” was a lot easier after the fact, writing that, “After the event, of course, a signal is always crystal clear; we can now see what disaster it was signaling since the disaster has now occurred. But before the event, it is obscure and pregnant with conflicting meanings. It comes to the observer embedded in an atmosphere of ‘noise’, i.e., in all sorts of information that is useless and irrelevant for predicting the disaster.”
...
The mistake the Israelis made 50 years ago, and the Bush administration made before 9/11, despite intelligence warnings, was to underestimate the capabilities of their nations’ enemies. We don’t know yet what the Netanyahu government was told, if anything, about a possible attack from Gaza, but given the large-scale nature of the attacks, it seems conceivable that there were some indications that an attack was coming.

Israelis will likely only find out if there is a real demand for timely accountability and if the Netanyahu government agrees to provide it.

For now, understandably, the Israelis are focused on the ongoing conflict. “We were surprised this morning,” Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, the international spokesperson for the Israeli Defense Forces, told CNN Saturday. “About failures, I prefer not to talk at this point right now. We’re in war. We’re fighting. I’m sure this will be a big question once this event is over.”

“I assume the intelligence question will be talked about down the road and we’ll learn what happened there.”

In so many “surprise” attacks, from Pearl Harbor to the Yom Kippur War to 9/11, it turns out that relevant intelligence generated by spy agencies was disseminated to policymakers, but it wasn’t heeded as it didn’t fit with the assumptions they had about the actual nature and scale of the threat.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinion-the-911-attack-wasn-t-an-intelligence-failure-the-hamas-attack-may-be/ar-AA1hVwAx

[wackawacka 168]

7 hours ago, Aqua Buddha said:

Iran is in no position to project power a thousand miles away.

Them and Hamas' only hope is that Israel plays by a different rulebook than they do.  Israel can level Gaza and we have to carrier groups off the coast giving them the green light.

100% Iran only ability to project power is via Hamas and Hezebolla. We (Israel) neuters Iran by taking out Hamas.

[Welshy 907]

1 hour ago, SydneyCarton said:

Now back to my fucking exile. 

[chainsaw 9831]

6 hours ago, bernorange said:

For @chainsaw et al:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/opinion-the-911-attack-wasn-t-an-intelligence-failure-the-hamas-attack-may-be/ar-AA1hVwAx

Interesting read.

I was referring to this news, which I'd assumed had already become well known in this thread:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

Quote

Mounting questions over Israel’s massive intelligence failure to anticipate and prepare for a surprise Hamas assault were compounded Monday when an Egyptian intelligence official said that Jerusalem had ignored repeated warnings that the Gaza-based terror group was planning “something big” — which included an apparent direct notice from Cairo’s intelligence minister to the prime minister.

The Egyptian official said Egypt, which often serves as a mediator between Israel and Hamas, had spoken repeatedly with the Israelis about “something big,” without elaborating.

He said Israeli officials were focused on the West Bank and played down the threat from Gaza. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is made up of supporters of West Bank settlers who have demanded a security crackdown there in the face of a rising tide of violence over the last 18 months.

That report is something the avowed leftist Mike McCaul recently confirmed, so while I understand some posters' desire to be skeptical of the claim that Israel knew beforehand, I'm not sure it can be dismissed as a conspiracy theory.

So yeah put yourself in the shoes of one of the many victim's families. Then ask yourself if the people you trusted to protect you owe you an apology. If the answer is "no" only then could it be said that the government is blameless.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Ma’a salama

[DixonHur 11074]

I understand tempers are flaring, but this isn't a good look IMO

 

[cactusflinthead 27593]

[chainsaw 9831]

4 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I understand tempers are flaring, but this isn't a good look IMO

 

"Right to Defend Itself" is the new "Religion of Peace" around here.

[InkaUtexas 25426]

Hatred continues. https://apnews.com/article/muslim-boy-killed-chicago-landlord-will-county-5135dea218326d6e639a996564d9369e

HICAGO (AP) — A 71-year-old Illinois man was charged Sunday with a hate crime, accused of fatally stabbing a young boy and seriously wounding a woman because of their Islamic faith and the Israel-Hamas war, authorities said.

Spoiler

Officers found the 32-year-old woman and 6-year-old boy late Saturday morning at a home in an unincorporated area of Plainfield Township, southwest of Chicago, the Will County Sheriff’s Office said in a statement on social media. 

The statement added that the boy was pronounced dead at a hospital and the woman had multiple stab wounds and was expected to survive. An autopsy on the child showed he had also been stabbed multiple times. 

 

According to the sheriff’s office, the woman had called 911 to report that her landlord had attacked her with a knife, adding she then ran into a bathroom and continued to fight him off. 

The boy was stabbed numerous times with a knife, according to an autopsy, the sheriff’s office said. The woman had more than a dozen stab wounds and remained hospitalized Sunday and was expected to survive.

The man suspected in the attack was found Saturday outside the home and “sitting upright outside on the ground near the driveway of the residence” with a cut on his forehead, authorities said.

He was in custody Sunday and awaiting a court appearance. Authorities said he has been charged him with first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder, two counts of hate crimes and aggravated battery with a deadly weapon.

 

 

 

[freyguy 4245]

My Trumper co-workers are using this to tout their anti-muslim xenophobia and border control hysteria.  Meanwhile, I have another co-worker whose Israeli wife lost at least 8 of her childhood friends during last weekend's attack, and is chomping at the bit to pick up a rifle and head back to her homeland.  And I'm telling my kid at UT to lay off attending Hillel for awhile. 

Great times we're in...

[Huckleberry 32685]

https://abc7chicago.com/plainfield-murder-joseph-m-czuba-stabbing-16200-s-lincoln-hwy-il/13918623/

Dehumanizing people has consequences.

[atomheartbevo 89362]

Disney donated $2 to relief organizations in Israel:

Quote

The Walt Disney Company donated 2 million dollars to Israeli organizations. “In the wake of the horrific terrorist attacks targeting Jews in Israel this past weekend, we must all do what we can to support the innocent people experiencing so much pain, violence, and uncertainty — particularly children,” said Bob Iger, CEO of The Walt Disney Company. “We condemn these attacks, the hate that motivated them, and all acts of terrorism, and we will continue working to find more ways to provide support in the region, and to honor the victims, their families, and all those affected by this war.”

On the one hand, MAGA is pissed because it's Disney is bad.

On the other hand, Disney giving to Israel, so good.

But on the other other hand, Disney specifically talking about helping Jewish people, so bad.

[South Austin 52037]

5 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Disney donated $2 to relief organizations in Israel:

[texasdago 7550]

37 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

Disney donated $2 to relief organizations in Israel:

On the one hand, MAGA is pissed because it's Disney is bad.

On the other hand, Disney giving to Israel, so good.

But on the other other hand, Disney specifically talking about helping Jewish people, so bad.

[cactusflinthead 27593]

 

[Satchel 6908]

Everybody knows he greasing the wheels for Hunter to make money.

[bolverk 29360]

Really insightful (but long 43 min) interview with Fareed Zakaria. The first half exclusively covers the Hamas/Israeli conflict, with the second half discussing other geopolitical topics, including Ukraine and Saudi Arabia, our domestic political climate, and the upcoming presidential election. He's always been one of my favorites, and I highly recommend if you have the time.

 

[Bullneck 18976]

9 hours ago, Satchel said:

Everybody knows he greasing the wheels for Hunter to make money.

He's going to be on the board of Gaza Gas.

At least it ain't Nigaz

Spoiler

Nigaz is a joint venture between the Russian gas company Gazprom EP International B.V. (100% affiliate of OAO Gazprom) and the Nigerian National Petroleum Corporation.^[1] Nigaz was established in 2009. It plans to invest US$2.5 billion to build oil and gas refineries, pipelines and gas power stations in Nigeria.^[2] Launching the company, Russian president Dmitry Medvedev announced his intention to form a major energy partnership with Nigeria at a meeting in Abuja with Nigerian president Umaru Yar'Adua.^[3]

The company's name, a portmanteau of "Nigeria" and "Gazprom", attracted media attention because of its similarity to the potentially offensive word "nigga", a slang derivative and reclaimed word from "nigger", in African American Vernacular English.^[2][4]

[Nivek 16808]

Will Israel's own interests be served by yielding to understandable blood lust? I doubt it.
What should Israel do? Maybe take a beat and try pragmatism. 

So tell us what the outcome was? What did Athens in their wisdom decide to do? Did it work?

[RomaVicta 29756]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

So tell us what the outcome was? What did Athens in their wisdom decide to do? Did it work?

Athens voted to rescind the first directive and sent the second of their two state triremes, Paralos and Saliminia, to try to overtake the first which had sailed for the island. That vessel, arrived in Mytilene just in time to stop the original order from being carried out. This is all frum Thucydides.

[SimonBolivar 10898]

39 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Athens...

Can we bring back Ostracism?

[linux 1655]

After extreme deliberation and really depressing thoughts, the only conclusion that can be drawn from all of this is that don't elect fascists, they are filthy fucking idiots.

A) The majority of the IDF was in the west, policing and protecting huge assholes that should be sent to outerspace to settle asteroids, not the WB.

B) Their mowing the lawn strategy kept people subjugated, Hamas did something and they retaliated, all of this premeditated all under control, all benefiting electing fascism.
 

C) They did the Alqasa raids on occasion to trigger B, Bibi returning to power meant there was no low/lower that they could go.

So why concentrate thoughts on Israel and not Hamas? cause they have overwhelming power, and they use that power in halfassed fashion, just like Donny and his coup. All of this was preventable with competent leadership, but it is the incompetent leadership that used emotion to keep itself in power that allowed all this to begin with. The cycle of stupidity.

[Nivek 16808]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Athens voted to rescind the first directive and sent the second of their two state triremes, Paralos and Saliminia, to try to overtake the first which had sailed for the island. That vessel, arrived in Mytilene just in time to stop the original order from being carried out. This is all frum Thucydides.

And......  what did Athen's decide to do instead of killing all the men and enslaving all the women and children?   How did it work out for them?  How was this a similar/different outcome than when they did carry out the first ship's order (kill/enslave) against Melos?  

[chainsaw 9831]

I found some interesting data about the 2006 electorate that brought Hamas into power:

How many Palestinians polled supported a Peace Agreement with Israel?

 

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

83.7%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q3.html

 

How many Palestinians polled wanted Hamas to change its position regarding the elimination of Israel?

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

75.2%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q10.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe Hamas would reduce corruption?

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

78.1%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13a.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe the economic situation would improve under Hamas?

 

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

55.9%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13b.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe that security within Palestine would improve under Hamas?

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

67.8%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13c.html

 

What did polled Palestinians perceive as Hamas's top three priorities at the time it was elected in 2006?

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

1. Corruption (39.7%)

2. Security (17.2%)

3. Poverty/Employment (16.5%)

. . .

6. Resisting Israeli occupation (3.0%)

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q16.html

 

The full poll is here.

It bears repeating that most Gazans alive today were either not alive or too young to vote back in 2006. But since so much has been made about Gaza's supposed enabling of terror I thought it would be a good idea to more closely examine the size and contours of Hamas's supported electoral mandate.

Speaking of electoral mandates, on to the ballot box.

How big was Hamas's electoral victory in 2006?

Spoiler

Take a guess first.

The answer:

Spoiler

29,855 votes.

Hamas (under the "Change and Reform" banner) secured over 440k votes, while the Fatah party managed over 410k.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081029054121/http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Final_Results_PLC_Summary_Lists_Seats_2_En.pdf

 

I'm not really seeing how the data supports the idea that a majority of Gazans, or even a substantial percentage of them, are intent on eradicating any group of people, Jews or otherwise. 2.2 Million people, and at most 40,000 are part of the terror group. To put hospitalized babies in danger of airstrikes and starvation, and to cut off electricity to them, is a form of unacceptable collective punishment against innocents for the crimes of terrorists who never received an electoral mandate in the first place.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by chainsaw

[RomaVicta 29756]

7 minutes ago, Nivek said:

And......  what did Athen's decide to do instead of killing all the men and enslaving all the women and children?   How did it work out for them?  How was this a similar/different outcome than when they did carry out the first ship's order (kill/enslave) against Melos?  

It begins to sound like you know more about this than I do, my friend. As I was refreshing my memory about this long-ago read passage in Thucydides and long-ago taken classes, the pragamatism of the Mytilene discussion is not reported on again. I think the argument about future opponents/rebels fighting to the end which would make future rebellions more difficult to deal with stands as the more reasonable consideration.

The Melian debate is the follow-up to the more punitive side of the equation. The moral force of leniency is absent in the discussion and it's all about making an example of Melos whom had tried to be neutral in the Peloponnesion war between Sparta and Athens. The Athenians, as I think you know, completed the siege and put all the men to the sword and enslaved the rest.

Refreshing my memory, I opened wikipedia and will rely on the below for concise analysis:

The US seems to lean more towards the Athens of the Melian Dialogue. We're aggressive with military bases and forces all over the world. Our civic discourse is filled with worries about looking weak and keeping everybody else frightened. Since the Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan (enlightened self-interest, both), who has ever benefitted from a US invasion?

We don't care about civilian casualties from our use of explosive attack. We killed tens of thousands in Iraq.

So now, Israel. They've gone from something akin to a city-state to a local military giant and empire builder. Their taking Palestine the same way we took our continent. Treaty> Illegal settlements > Calling resistance savage and uncalled for > Send in the army to formalize the settlements.

Sure, there'll be a little guilt. We feel a little about enslaving other people or wiping them out, but it's transient.

Now that I'm writing too long, another thought occurs to me. We and Israel always claim moral authority. We had it in WW2 and view all wars as WW2. That authority is long gone. So it may be with Israel. Once the world placed the Jews in that spot, they had no choice but to fight.

It was once for simple survival whether one thinks they should have been given that land or not. Now? Not so much. 

[LCHorn 2582]

15 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Since the Marshall Plan and the rebuilding of Japan (enlightened self-interest, both), who has ever benefitted from a US invasion?

You're being a little unfair, don't you think?  We can't know the answer to this question without fantasizing. 

Korea is a clear win for 50 million people.  Undoubtedly the Kurds living in Iraq live freer today as a result of our Iraq invasion.  I've long had a suspicion that Iraq was hit, in part, because it was a more obvious target than Iraq or Saudi Arabia and gave us leverage and proximity to both. 

Honestly, given the emergent blood lust that seems inherent in our culture, the fact we have ever stabilized another state is a show of surprising restraint.

[linux 1655]

The war in Iraq was bad, millions+ dead because of it, there is no sugarcoating little victories. That said was Kurd stability really a small victory?

Donald Trump betrayed the Kurds and left them exposed to ethnic cleansing, their real enemy for decades has been Turkey not Saddam since the no fly zone had protected them for like 10 years.

[RomaVicta 29756]

27 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

You're being a little unfair, don't you think?  We can't know the answer to this question without fantasizing. 

Korea is a clear win for 50 million people.  Undoubtedly the Kurds living in Iraq live freer today as a result of our Iraq invasion.  I've long had a suspicion that Iraq was hit, in part, because it was a more obvious target than Iraq or Saudi Arabia and gave us leverage and proximity to both. 

Honestly, given the emergent blood lust that seems inherent in our culture, the fact we have ever stabilized another state is a show of surprising restraint.

Using the Kurds as an example of American benevolence is so very wrong. We've used and betrayed them over the decades in the most shameful of ways. Our joint involvement in fighting ISIS was maybe the worst betrayal we've ever done to anybody.

We didn't invade Korea. We were there after WW2 and were attacked while there. However, we did go all out to drive the invader out only to invade N. Korea to be driven back ourselves. I think that one has worked out better for us and the Koreans than otherwise, but it's so horribly offset by Vietnam, Iraq, and all the shit we pulled in Latin America.

I won't include Afghanistan because that invasion started off with a legit purpose and was actually well-run to start off. Still didn't turn out well for Afghan women and collaborators, but that's because we replaced special forces (so we could have a northern front in fucking Iraq) and replaced them with regular military. Disaster.

[Brian Fantana 6654]

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I found some interesting data about the 2006 electorate that brought Hamas into power:

How many Palestinians polled supported a Peace Agreement with Israel?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

83.7%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q3.html

 

How many Palestinians polled wanted Hamas to change its position regarding the elimination of Israel?

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

75.2%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q10.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe Hamas would reduce corruption?

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

78.1%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13a.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe the economic situation would improve under Hamas?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

55.9%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13b.html

 

How many Palestinians polled were led to believe that security within Palestine would improve under Hamas?

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

67.8%

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q13c.html

 

What did polled Palestinians perceive as Hamas's top three priorities at the time it was elected in 2006?

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

1. Corruption (39.7%)

2. Security (17.2%)

3. Poverty/Employment (16.5%)

. . .

6. Resisting Israeli occupation (3.0%)

http://www.neareastconsulting.com/plc2006/results/out_freq_q16.html

 

The full poll is here.

It bears repeating that most Gazans alive today were either not alive or too young to vote back in 2006. But since so much has been made about Gaza's supposed enabling of terror I thought it would be a good idea to more closely examine the size and contours of Hamas's supported electoral mandate.

Speaking of electoral mandates, on to the ballot box.

How big was Hamas's electoral victory in 2006?

  Reveal hidden contents

Take a guess first.

The answer:

  Reveal hidden contents

29,855 votes.

Hamas (under the "Change and Reform" banner) secured over 440k votes, while the Fatah party managed over 410k.

https://web.archive.org/web/20081029054121/http://www.elections.ps/pdf/Final_Results_PLC_Summary_Lists_Seats_2_En.pdf

 

I'm not really seeing how the data supports the idea that a majority of Gazans, or even a substantial percentage of them, are intent on eradicating any group of people, Jews or otherwise. 2.2 Million people, and at most 40,000 are part of the terror group. To put hospitalized babies in danger of airstrikes and starvation, and to cut off electricity to them, is a form of unacceptable collective punishment against innocents for the crimes of terrorists who never received an electoral mandate in the first place.

 

I brought all this up much earlier in the thread/in the DT thread on Saturday and the chucklefuck brigade handwaved it all away.

[chainsaw 9831]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I brought all this up much earlier in the thread/in the DT thread on Saturday and the chucklefuck brigade handwaved it all away.

It's easier to simply believe the canards about Arabs. Their grievances couldn't possibly be legitimate, right?

[C-Man 26992]

This seems bad: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-17-23/index.html

Quote

Preliminary estimates indicate between 200 to 300 people were killed in an Israeli strike on a hospital in the center of Gaza City, the Palestinian Health Ministry in Gaza said in a statement Tuesday, noting many people still remained beneath the rubble.

The Palestinian government in Gaza said in an earlier statement that the strike on the Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital had resulted in dozens of deaths.

“A new war crime committed by the occupation in the bombing of Al-Ahli Arabi Hospital in the center of Gaza City, resulting in the arrival of dozens of martyrs and injured at Al-Shifa Medical Complex due to the bombing. It should be noted that the hospital housed hundreds of patients, wounded, and displaced people from their homes forcibly due to the airstrikes,” the government statement said. 

Hamas released a statement on the strike, calling it a "genocide."

“The Al-Ahli Hospital Massacre in the heart of Gaza Strip is a genocide. Enough silence on the aggression and recklessness of the occupation,” Hamas said in a statement.

Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Daniel Hagari said the IDF is looking into the reported strike, saying since it was fairly recent, the IDF is still unclear whether the hospital was hit by an Israeli Air Force (IAF) strike or failed Hamas launch. 

 

[bolverk 29360]

2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

This seems bad: https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-news-hamas-war-10-17-23/index.html

 

Some are also reporting it may have been a Hamas missile that misfired. Either way, it's just a terrible fucking tragedy.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

3 minutes ago, bolverk said:

Some are also reporting it may have been a Hamas missile that misfired. 

link?

[bolverk 29360]

Just now, MC Fresh Breath said:

link?

One of the most recent DT posts with a shitton of Twitter (which I'm staying away from because of so much disinfo) posts.

 

[Serak The Preparer 3423]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

link?

From the CNN article linked right above: "Israel Defense Forces spokesperson Daniel Hagari said the IDF is looking into the reported strike, saying since it was fairly recent, the IDF is still unclear whether the hospital was hit by an Israeli Air Force (IAF) strike or failed Hamas launch."

 

I think it's fair to say that's a possibility. Given that the strike just happened, saying it's not necessarily an Israeli strike is true. Based on my completely uneducated guess, it certainly seems more likely than a failed launch but think it's fair to say we are not 100% sure, and should be sure before we say one way or another.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Serak The Preparer

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Thanks for replies.  I understand fog of war for sure, but so far I've only seen the IDF insinuate it might have been a failed Hamas rocket.  

Edited October 17, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

Quote

 

The al-Alhli Hospital was not the only civilian target attacked in Gaza. A UN-operated school housing thousands of war displaced was also hit earlier with at least six people killed.

Tamara al-Rifai, from the UN Relief and Works Agency, says there was “direct Israeli fire” on the facility and another refugee centre in the area.

“An attack on densely populated refugee camps where people are sheltering in UN schools and premises is something that is utterly shocking. It is a very sad violation of international humanitarian law. I am lost for words right now,” al-Rifai told Al Jazeera.

“We clearly identify all of our buildings and we share the coordinates, the GPS, with all of the [war] parties. That camp hosted 4,000 displaced people.”

 

So there's also the school housing.

[Anastasis 23375]

The hospital strike claims need to be assessed with caution. Inflammatory claims related extreme events such as this require that we don't jump to conclusions and let the evidence play out. Atrocity propaganda assessments should work the same whether the claims relate to Hamas or Israeli actions.  

[Satchel 6908]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The hospital strike claims need to be assessed with caution. Inflammatory claims related extreme events such as this require that we don't jump to conclusions and let the evidence play out. Atrocity propaganda assessments should work the same whether the claims relate to Hamas or Israeli actions.  

Very good advice. Again, info hygiene is critical.

[bolverk 29360]

I'm pretty much sticking to the live updates from Haaretz (they're coming in quickly) and NYTimes.

[chainsaw 9831]

I'll say this: its more consistent with one side's MO than the other's, but yes let's wait and see.