Israel

[Fastbreak 3,956]

War is a great way to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich. It always has been. “Aid” is just the veneer.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Fastbreak said:

War is a great way to transfer wealth from the poor to the rich. It always has been. “Aid” is just the veneer.

Well, that answers the famous philosophical question of "War. Huh! Good God! What is it good for?"

[Brisketexan 104,537]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

Fuck.

I have been sorting my "feelings" on this for quite a while.  I tend to favor Israel while fully acknowledging their role in oppressing and harassing the occupied territories.

Therefore, I wanted this not to be true (IAF did it).  But I also acknowledge that there's a decent likelihood that it was true.

I am relieved that it is not true.  Also that the casualties appear to be far less than originally stated.  That's the best part of all.

Your approach was mine here, right down to the "tend to favor Israel, but also hold them culpable/responsible for feeding the beast over decades."

And yeah, I was in very much the "wait and see," mostly because the typical extreme shrill voices taking polar positions almost immediately. Let the dust settle...literally.  And in the light of day....it is quite apparent that was not a JDAM or similar strike, and it's also apparent that it didn't hit "the hospital," and that the casualty count is much lower than initial claims -- any lesser loss of innocent lives is a plus.

All of that said, is there an ongoing risk that Israel will (mistakenly or even on purpose) hit a target full of civilians?  Yep.  Which is why it is in humanity's interest to start working to ratchet shit down.

[swraith 336]

29 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

This is the thought that keeps coming up when I hear about the House needing to open so it can pass an aid package for Israel.  Uh what is the rush to send them aid?  The Executive has already signaled broad diplomatic support.

Edited October 18, 2023 by swraith

[bolverk 29,394]

2 minutes ago, FirstTimeCaller said:

Question regarding the talk of aid package to Israel. Um, for what? 

I understand Ukraine having to fight back against a massively larger aggressor. That makes sense to me. Russia has tanks, you better get some weapons to blow up tanks.

Israel is fighting a much smaller entity and has for decades prepared and known the risk of war on its doorstep. What exactly do they need aid for? 

My very limited understanding is for more munitions, especially if this is a prolonged and/or wider engagement. IOW, help Israel not run out of ammo.

 

@troph

Quote

The conversation of peacetime oppression is a different question and yes Israel is not without blame.  Yes civilians are killed in war and Israel as with any nation engaged in war kills civilians but more often than not when Hamas speaks it is a to stoke fear or a lie to blame Israel and the world just keeps licking it up.

I get where you're coming from and largely agree. But we must also recognize there are those IN POWER who lie and stoke fear as well. Those voices are not simply outliers. Netanyahu has formed a government with them, and they are vehement radicals.

How does one find common ground with these people if you're a Palestinian who only seeks peace and equal rights as an Israeli citizen, much less a Palestinian in either Gaza or the West Bank and only want self-determination?

 

Itamar Ben Gvir, head of the Jewish Power Party and head of Domestic Police:

Quote

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66614459

The state department said it strongly condemned the "inflammatory comments" and "all racist rhetoric".

His remarks on Israeli TV sparked a storm of criticism online.

*****

Mr Ben Gvir leads the ultranationalist Otzma Yehudit or "Jewish Power" party which espouses racist, anti-Arab policies. He has previous convictions for inciting racism and supporting terrorism.

In December he was made a top minister by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who gave him a seat in his security cabinet and put him in charge of the domestic police, as well as Israel's militarised border police force that operates in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

*****

"My right, my wife's, my children's, to roam the roads of Judea and Samaria are more important than the right of movement of the Arabs," said Mr Ben Gvir, using a biblical term for the West Bank.

He then addressed Mohammad Magadli, an Arab Israeli journalist in the studio, saying: "Sorry Mohammad, but this is the reality, that's the truth. My right for life comes before their right to movement."

 

 

Quote

 

https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-religion-jerusalem-israel-benjamin-netanyahu-189ef3fc8c82d7163c1339e64bb1e40f

The awarding of the sensitive role to Ben-Gvir raises concerns of a further escalation in Israeli-Palestinian tensions. Ben-Gvir and his allies hope to grant immunity to Israeli soldiers who shoot at Palestinians, deport rival lawmakers and impose the death penalty on Palestinians convicted of attacks on Jews.

Ben-Gvir is the disciple of a racist rabbi, Meir Kahane, who was banned from Parliament and whose Kach party was branded a terrorist group by the United States before he was assassinated in New York in 1990.

Ahead of Israel’s Nov. 1 election, Ben-Gvir grabbed headlines for his anti-Palestinian speeches and stunts, including brandishing a pistol and encouraging police to open fire on Palestinian stone-throwers in a tense Jerusalem neighborhood.

Before becoming a lawyer and entering politics, he was convicted of offenses that include inciting racism and supporting a terrorist organization.

 

 

Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionist party, Finance Minister

Quote

 

https://www.timesofisrael.com/far-right-lawmaker-bezalel-smotrich-declares-himself-his-family-real-palestinians/

Far-right lawmaker Bezalel Smotrich said Sunday that the Palestinian people were “an invention” from the last century and that people like himself and his grandparents were the “real Palestinians.”

Speaking in Paris at a private memorial service for prominent right-wing Likud activist and Jewish Agency board member Jacques Kupfer, who passed away after a long battle with cancer in 2021, Smotrich said there was “no such thing as Palestinians because there’s no such thing as the Palestinian people,” a comment that was met with applause and cheers from attendees, as seen in a video from the event posted online.

******

Smotrich was speaking from a podium that featured a map of “Greater Israel” that included the territory of modern-day Jordan, in accordance with hardline aspirations by some early Zionist groups.

Smotrich has a history of making inflammatory statements against Palestinians, Arab citizens of Israel, non-Orthodox Jews, and the LGBTQ community including once declaring himself a “proud homophobe.” In 2021, he said David Ben-Gurion, Israel’s first prime minister, should have “finished the job” and kicked all Arabs out of the country when it was founded. Earlier that same year, he said members of Israel’s Arab minority communities were citizens “for now at least.”

 

 

Just look at what he's said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Anti-Arab_and_anti-Palestinian_sentiment

 

This is in no way excusing anything that Hamas has done, but I feel like we're giving Israel's leadership a free pass with a lot of this stuff. They're terrible, awful people. Who are reasonable Palestinians supposed to negotiate with?

 

[troph 24,560]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Your approach was mine here, right down to the "tend to favor Israel, but also hold them culpable/responsible for feeding the beast over decades."

And yeah, I was in very much the "wait and see," mostly because the typical extreme shrill voices taking polar positions almost immediately. Let the dust settle...literally.  And in the light of day....it is quite apparent that was not a JDAM or similar strike, and it's also apparent that it didn't hit "the hospital," and that the casualty count is much lower than initial claims -- any lesser loss of innocent lives is a plus.

All of that said, is there an ongoing risk that Israel will (mistakenly or even on purpose) hit a target full of civilians?  Yep.  Which is why it is in humanity's interest to start working to ratchet shit down.

only quibble - I don't think civilians are targeted by strikes. I think civilians are always killed in war, even moreso in a densely populated urban area, even moreso when the enemy is a terrorist organization that hides among civilians, even moreso when political leadership does the opposite of work to protect the welfware of its population and instead asks them to be targets by staying, even moreso when their military makes mistakes and blames the otherside.

I think Israel targeting civilians in strikes comes (if at all) after all of those other factors are dealth with squarely and without dismissing the severity of those causes.

Now, cutting off utilities, fuel, water, etc.? Might not be the best, I dunno.

Occupying/settling west bank terrority? Might not be the best.

Is there blame for Israel, yes.

But I see Hamas as the primary, superseding and intervening cause of civilian casualties on both sides until it's clearly proven that Israel is targeting civilians purposefully and without any real military objective. Noting that there is no confusion or ambiguity over the fact that Hamas does exactly that.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

1 minute ago, troph said:

only quibble - I don't think civilians are targeted by strikes.

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

[troph 24,560]

@bolverk I don't think peace is possible.  One side is currently radicalized now (Israel) and the otherside is a terrorist organization that will never be satisfied.  Asking Israel to make peace is not fair, it's not possible, it's a fucking mess.  I fully recognize Israel has helped create the problem and that they don't make it easier by being far right but the otherside, at least consistent I guess (sarcasm intended), is unwavering in their commitment to not strike a deal. Now, toss Hezbollah and Hamas out the fucking window and have a real and legitimate Gazan/Palestinian majority that wants peace and can enforce it then ok that's different. never been there, don't ever see it happening.

[David Dennison 18,646]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

@bolverk I don't think peace is possible.  One side is currently radicalized now (Israel) and the otherside is a terrorist organization that will never be satisfied.  Asking Israel to make peace is not fair, it's not possible, it's a fucking mess.  I fully recognize Israel has helped create the problem and that they don't make it easier by being far right but the otherside, at least consistent I guess (sarcasm intended), is unwavering in their commitment to not strike a deal. Now, toss Hezbollah and Hamas out the fucking window and have a real and legitimate Gazan/Palestinian majority that wants peace and can enforce it then ok that's different. never been there, don't ever see it happening.

Israel will never have peace as long as its policy is to oppress Palestinians in the territories.

[chainsaw 9,836]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

[troph 24,560]

14 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Israel will never have peace as long as its policy is to oppress Palestinians in the territories.

Palestinians will never have peace as long as terrorist organizations murder Israeli civilians in Israel.

hence impossible.

[Satchel 6,908]

The real tragedy of the times we live is that we believe more than we know, and what we believe is often invulnerable to disproof.

[troph 24,560]

29 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank, while the world is watching Gaza.  The Israeli government, either directly or acting in support of (or protecting) Israeli "settler" groups, has been pat of straight up targeted violence against Palestinian civilians.  I'm not talking about "collateral damage," which will happen in Gaza especially because of how Hamas operates.  I'm talking about Israelis flat-out harming and killing innocent Palestinians.  Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

I'm not excusing west bank behavior, I've said as much and Israel really should simply be required to vacate, move and get out. Unfortunately, it's a bit more of a quagmire and that is a major factor in this whole thing. it's a fucking mess and Israel has significant culpability there. But we all need to recognize that vacating the West Bank won't bring peace.

What I'm talking specifically talking about war time engagements with Hamas and Hezbollah in Gaza and Lebanon.  Here specifically Hamas. The pattern is terrorists do terrorist things, then civilians are killed, and terrorists scream it was Israel, then it's proven otherwise.  I do not know of a situation in these specific war time engagements where are missiles being fired intentionally without any legitimate military target at civilians.

My personal take on this is that many ignore the fact that no matter what Israel does, peace is not achievable. This is like sibling rivalry where the parents always tell the older brother to behave and the younger brother gets to sabotage and be subversive and any time the older brother does anything other than take it the older brother gets in trouble. There is not one fucking thing Israel can do to bring peace other than dissolve its government, pack up and leave completely. Why some people keep one siding this as Israel's fault and fail to see that peace is impossible no matter what they do is the part that annoys the most.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[David Dennison 18,646]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

Palestinians will never have peace as long as terrorist organizations murder Israeli civilians in Israel.

hence impossible.

A state is better able to change policy. Israel should do that.

[WhatTheBuck 28,703]

39 minutes ago, bolverk said:

My very limited understanding is for more munitions, especially if this is a prolonged and/or wider engagement. IOW, help Israel not run out of ammo.

 

@troph

I get where you're coming from and largely agree. But we must also recognize there are those IN POWER who lie and stoke fear as well. Those voices are not simply outliers. Netanyahu has formed a government with them, and they are vehement radicals.

How does one find common ground with these people if you're a Palestinian who only seeks peace and equal rights as an Israeli citizen, much less a Palestinian in either Gaza or the West Bank and only want self-determination?

 

Itamar Ben Gvir, head of the Jewish Power Party and head of Domestic Police:

 

 

Bezalel Smotrich, head of the Religious Zionist party, Finance Minister

 

Just look at what he's said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bezalel_Smotrich#Anti-Arab_and_anti-Palestinian_sentiment

 

This is in no way excusing anything that Hamas has done, but I feel like we're giving Israel's leadership a free pass with a lot of this stuff. They're terrible, awful people. Who are reasonable Palestinians supposed to negotiate with?

 

More on Ben-Gvir:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/02/27/itamar-ben-gvir-israels-minister-of-chaos

[Dnaguy 11,763]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I remember reading a few months ago that one of the founders of the LLM and generative AI said that the risk of Artificial Intelligence won't gain sentience and take over mankind like in horror movies.

The risk is it will drive human beings insane. Your summary of the main problem we face reminds me of that. We are collectively going insane in the sense of what we believe and perceive is both real and different from one man to another.

Best to get your Lexipro script filled now before there’s a run on the already strained healthcare system and the depression / anxiety you’re wrestling with causes you to end it all before you can see anyone.

/kidding 

…. well, maybe not.

[LCHorn 2,585]

Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but I don't really get all the hand-wringing about the hospital. 

Israel is about to go into Gaza like the USMC did retaking Fallujah and there's going to be a lot more civilian casualties (and I'm not judging, I think it's impossible to prevent them). 

That said, if any possible Israeli culpability has an upside it's that it should quiet the Northwest Hills mom's current social media blitz of "If you're not with Israel you're against us."  Wait, aren't ya'll Americans?

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

10 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Similarly you can't take the terrorists word for it, because they are terrorists who rape and behead babies 

but you're willing to believe that one it seems.  despite from what i can see, no proof whatsoever this took place.  
 

[Brisketexan 104,537]

25 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

But you sure as fuck jumped on board IMMEDIATELY with the Hamas version of the story.  And we fucking KNOW that Hamas has unclean hands -- for fuck's sake, some of the Israeli civilian blood from 10 days ago is barely dry. 

Dude.  Just....dude.  Remove the log from your own eye, all that shit.  That you unironically wrote what I bolded is fucking embarassing.

[troph 24,560]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

A state is better able to change policy. Israel should do that.

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

[RomaVicta 29,769]

4 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

I notice everyone on this thread railing against them yesterday isn’t on this thread today saying, “my bad, guess it wasn’t them”.  Quite telling.

Fair post, Beantown. I believed it was the Israelis. Now the evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn't change my position on Israel's attack on Gaza anymore than the question of beheaded babies changed my disposition towards the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli citizens.

"Hey, we blockaded a huge civilian popuation, used high explosives to bombard them, and make no sign of concern about it, but we didn't blow up that hospital!"

"Hey, we sprayed machine gun fire at civilians, executed families in their homes, raped everything in sight, and took captives, but we didn't chop the heads off any babies!"

 

I deplore Biden's visit to that bloodthirsty government in Israel. I despise that we clearly don't see the life of a Palestinian civilian as valauble as an Israeli's. I'm embarrassed that everyone so easily falls into the tired narative that Israel is always on the verge of being destroyed. 

I want nothing to do with any of these parties other than whatever humanitarian things we can do. I don't see the Israelis as bad people nor do I see that in the Palestinians. Likud and Hamas are awful entities harming their own people and those peoples near them.

I again wonder if Israel holds some of our horrible secrets such as dirty work Mossad may have done for us. Israel is not a state in the union.

[troph 24,560]

7 minutes ago, LCHorn said:

Maybe I'm just being insensitive, but I don't really get all the hand-wringing about the hospital. 

Israel is about to go into Gaza like the USMC did retaking Fallujah and there's going to be a lot more civilian casualties (and I'm not judging, I think it's impossible to prevent them). 

That said, if any possible Israeli culpability has an upside it's that it should quiet the Northwest Hills mom's current social media blitz of "If you're not with Israel you're against us."  Wait, aren't ya'll Americans?

 

I think it's very much like Fallujah, that's my point, and Israel isn't picking soft targets for missiles like Hamas does for murder and kidnapping.

btw, I have a few NWH mom's in my insta and I can't deal. I had to like a few posts due to friendships, but I'm now avoiding insta so I don't have to see that shit.

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Fair post, Beantown. I believed it was the Israelis. Now the evidence indicates otherwise. That doesn't change my position on Israel's attack on Gaza anymore than the question of beheaded babies changed my disposition towards the horrific Hamas attack on Israeli citizens.

"Hey, we blockaded a huge civilian popuation, used high explosives to bombard them, and make no sign of concern about it, but we didn't blow up that hospital!"

"Hey, we sprayed machine gun fire at civilians, executed families in their homes, raped everything in sight, and took captives, but we didn't chop the heads off any babies!"

 

I deplore Biden's visit to that bloodthirsty government in Israel. I despise that we clearly don't see the life of a Palestinian civilian as valauble as an Israeli's. I'm embarrassed that everyone so easily falls into the tired narative that Israel is always on the verge of being destroyed. 

I want nothing to do with any of these parties other than whatever humanitarian things we can do. I don't see the Israelis as bad people nor do I see that in the Palestinians. Likud and Hamas are awful entities harming their own people and those peoples near them.

I again wonder if Israel holds some of our horrible secrets such as dirty work Mossad may have done for us. Israel is not a state in the union.

this is an entirely fair position.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

1 minute ago, troph said:

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

It is impossible when an entire side of the world doesn't acknowledge what has actually be going on for a long time.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8,799]

Something currently going on at the capital. Dark day for all of us.

[chainsaw 9,836]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

But you sure as fuck jumped on board IMMEDIATELY with the Hamas version of the story.  And we fucking KNOW that Hamas has unclean hands -- for fuck's sake, some of the Israeli civilian blood from 10 days ago is barely dry. 

Dude.  Just....dude.  Remove the log from your own eye, all that shit.  That you unironically wrote what I bolded is fucking embarassing.

This you?

46 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Israel's hands are and remain super unclean.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

Just now, troph said:

btw, I have a few NWH mom's in my insta and I can't deal.

Duh.  Follow their IG, but you should only look at their posts that feature them and their friends in swimsuits around the pool having daytime margaritas.  Do I have to explain how to do EVERYTHING to y'all?

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

3 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I was implying that Hamas definitely beheaded at least a baby or two, not necessarily the "50 headless babies found in shallow mass grave" copypasta that was going around. But sure fine, if it makes you feel better, strike that descriptor from the record and it's place add "ruthlessly and joyfully kills old senior citizens" and the point still remains and stands.

So you still want to spread some 'they are all subhuman baby killers' while getting in the 'we should be cautious with what we believe' bit.  Allrighty, then.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

This you?

yep.  AS ARE HAMAS'S HANDS.  Which is why I sure as hell withheld reaching any conclusions about the hospital event until after the dust settled and we were looking at facts and evidence, not spin and self-serving statements.

You, however, had no problem jumping on board the narrative of one party that has demonstrably unclean hands.  That's my fucking point.  We KNOW that both Hamas and Israel have unclean hands and will issue self-serving and untrustworthy statements.....but you only apply the skepticisim standard one way.

Jesus.  Fucking forget it.  Just have your way, do your thing.  The approach of blaming Israel for fucking everything, buying everything Hamas says the instant they say it, etc., has worked out BRILLIANTLY so far.  I'm sure that it will gain all the traction any day now, and will result in hand-holding and songs of peace any fucking day now.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Just now, BeardIP said:

I guess I'm confused by your question. Hamas the terrorist organization have engaged in subhuman acts, at LEAST as recently as, oh I don't know, 10 days ago at this point?

But yes, in this age of digital disruption and disinformation, we should be cautious with what we immediately believe as factual. For sure. At a minimum we should "trust, but verify".

Is that such a crazy position to take that I get I get the Jim Carrey dismiss?

I'll ease your confusion  "we should be cautious with what we immediately believe as factual. For sure"--fully agreed.  So then there's no need to throw in 'beheading babies' is there?  The subhuman comment was Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant's assessment of Palestinians.  Just tossing it in there.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

Just now, BeardIP said:

I guess I'm confused by your question. Hamas the terrorist organization have engaged in subhuman acts, at LEAST as recently as, oh I don't know, 10 days ago at this point?

But yes, in this age of digital disruption and disinformation, we should be cautious with what we immediately believe as factual. For sure. At a minimum we should "trust, but verify".

Is that such a crazy position to take that I get I get the Jim Carrey dismiss?

Yes.  You should be dismissed.

See, Hamas has demonstrably unclean hands and a clear track record of issuing self-serving false statements.....BUT, the palestinians have gotten a raw deal, so we should believe whatever Hamas says.

Whereas Israel also has demonstrably unclean hands and a clear track record of issuing self-serving false statements.....so we don't believe anything Israel says, at least not without objective evidence sufficient to support the statement.

The second statement makes plenty of sense.  The first is fucking insane.  But it is practiced by multiple posters on this thread.  They point to "Well, Israel lies!" as justification for them BLINDLY ACCEPTING WHAT HAMAS SAID AS THE TRUTH. The very standard they espouse, the refuse to apply.  If you want to know why this matter will never, ever, ever be solved, that's a great example.

[RomaVicta 29,769]

11 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

And what do you feel about a terrorist organization who tries to spin their own error and literal self-inflicting wound and blaming the counterparty through lies and manipulation? They are atrocity propaganda'ing in order to whip up emotions but the worst part it is by their own hand.

Read my post, and you'll see how I feel about Hamas, Mr. Kneejerk.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

I'll ease your confusion  "we should be cautious with what we immediately believe as factual. For sure"--fully agreed.  So then there's no need to throw in 'beheading babies' is there?  The subhuman comment was Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant's assessment of Palestinians.  Just tossing it in there.

This is also a problem.  The fucking singleminded focus on "well, you can't prove the beheading babies thing was true!" which functions (and you goddamned well know it does) to cast doubt on the fact that Hamas committed gross crimes against humanity/exculpate Hamas in some way. It's akin to the fucking American gun defenders  latching onto "a-ha!  You said the shooter had extra clips!  THAT'S WRONG!  They're called MAGAZINES!"  Jesus tapdancing Christ, Hamas butchered civilian men, women, and children.  Using numerous means and weapons.  What the fucking fuck is wrong you fucking people?

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The second statement makes plenty of sense.  The first is fucking insane.  But it is practiced by multiple posters on this thread.  They point to "Well, Israel lies!" as justification for them BLINDLY ACCEPTING WHAT HAMAS SAID AS THE TRUTH. The very standard they espouse, the refuse to apply.  If you want to know why this matter will never, ever, ever be solved, that's a great example.

Don't be a coward.  And show me where I blindly accpeted what hamas said as the truth, all caps yelling grandpa.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Don't be a coward.  And show me where I blindly accpeted what hamas said as the truth, all caps yelling grandpa.

Chainsaw sure as fuck did.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This is also a problem.  The fucking singleminded focus on "well, you can't prove the beheading babies thing was true!" which functions (and you goddamned well know it does) to cast doubt on the fact that Hamas committed gross crimes against humanity/exculpate Hamas in some way. It's akin to the fucking American gun defenders  latching onto "a-ha!  You said the shooter had extra clips!  THAT'S WRONG!  They're called MAGAZINES!"  Jesus tapdancing Christ, Hamas butchered civilian men, women, and children.  Using numerous means and weapons.  What the fucking fuck is wrong you fucking people?

You're off your rocker again, all caps.  The fact that the beheading babies thing was blindly accept doesn't bother you at all.  But it bothers you when I call it out.  Hamas committed atrocities.  Absolute crimes.  Not denied.  Edit:  But pointing out the contradiction of Beard stating 'we should be cautious with what we believe' while spouting twice something with not one shred of evidence (surely they must have beheaded some babies somewhere) isn't promoting terrorist propaganda.  

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[RomaVicta 29,769]

I was going to go back to quote one of the posts saying that anyone who believed the attack was Israeli was duped by Hamas. That's too much work.

It was a big explosion. Apparently a building had been devastated. There was a lot of that going around that was the result of Israeli military action. I and many others were not comparing sources; we were taking in news and drawing early conclusions that were certainly not unfounded. 

[chainsaw 9,836]

6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yes.  You should be dismissed.

See, Hamas has demonstrably unclean hands and a clear track record of issuing self-serving false statements.....BUT, the palestinians have gotten a raw deal, so we should believe whatever Hamas says.

Whereas Israel also has demonstrably unclean hands and a clear track record of issuing self-serving false statements.....so we don't believe anything Israel says, at least not without objective evidence sufficient to support the statement.

The second statement makes plenty of sense.  The first is fucking insane.  But it is practiced by multiple posters on this thread.  They point to "Well, Israel lies!" as justification for them BLINDLY ACCEPTING WHAT HAMAS SAID AS THE TRUTH. The very standard they espouse, the refuse to apply.  If you want to know why this matter will never, ever, ever be solved, that's a great example.

Show me where anyone in the past few pages has cited Hamas as a source upon which they've relied. I have been careful only to rely on credible journalists and video evidence.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This is also a problem.  The fucking singleminded focus on "well, you can't prove the beheading babies thing was true!" which functions (and you goddamned well know it does) to cast doubt on the fact that Hamas committed gross crimes against humanity/exculpate Hamas in some way.

This puts it even better.

 

Quote

Hamas’ barbarism doesn’t need to be exaggerated, as evidenced by the countless videos showing them gunning down unarmed and retreating people. But this specific claim created such an understandable repulsion toward the alleged crime against humanity. As some have feared, it succeeded in further dehumanizing Palestinians as a whole

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/decapitated-babies-claim-intent-dehumanization.html

[Brisketexan 104,537]

1 minute ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

This puts it even better.

 

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/10/decapitated-babies-claim-intent-dehumanization.html

I sure as hell didn't ever blindly accept the beheading babies story - I still haven't seen anything close to proof.

But you spend 10X the energy on disputing that story than on placing culpability on Hamas.  Your take, like that of most of the apologists, is "yes, crimes were committed.  Very bad.  Let's move on so I can get to my agenda: Fuck Israel with everything capable of fucking Israel."

Nope.  We don't get to just skip the fuck over Hamas's crimes, both their crimes in the attack on civilians and on their undeniable and documented war crimes of sheltering military assets in civilian structures like schools.  The level of moral culpability on Hamas, and yes, on the people who support them, is fucking substantial, and must be dealt with.

As must Israel's ongoing crimes in the West Bank. And Likud's plan to foment further discord to give Israel the opportunity to exercise force again and again.  And the list goes on.  

Maybe what I'm sick of is the fucking narrative of "yeah, I know, to be intellectually honest, I have to say that both sides bear responsibility, but having said that, I'm going to skip right over the horrific shit by the side I support, and focus exclusively on the horrific shit by the side I want to demonize."  I'll certainly note that plenty of the "I stand with Israel crowd" does this, and it's a shitty look.  Just like it's a shitty look on the palestinian defenders when they can't help but functionally exculpate Palestinian terrorism with what amounts to "but they're oppressed, so I understand, these things happen, let's move on."

[Tonesky 917]

6 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

Apparently a building had been devastated.

Except that it wasn’t.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I sure as hell didn't ever blindly accept the beheading babies story - I still haven't seen anything close to proof.

But you spend 10X the energy on disputing that story than on placing culpability on Hamas.  Your take, like that of most of the apologists, is "yes, crimes were committed.  Very bad.  Let's move on so I can get to my agenda: Fuck Israel with everything capable of fucking Israel."

Nope.  We don't get to just skip the fuck over Hamas's crimes, both their crimes in the attack on civilians and on their undeniable and documented war crimes of sheltering military assets in civilian structures like schools.  The level of moral culpability on Hamas, and yes, on the people who support them, is fucking substantial, and must be dealt with.

As must Israel's ongoing crimes in the West Bank. And Likud's plan to foment further discord to give Israel the opportunity to exercise force again and again.  And the list goes on.  

Maybe what I'm sick of is the fucking narrative of "yeah, I know, to be intellectually honest, I have to say that both sides bear responsibility, but having said that, I'm going to skip right over the horrific shit by the side I support, and focus exclusively on the horrific shit by the side I want to demonize."  I'll certainly note that plenty of the "I stand with Israel crowd" does this, and it's a shitty look.  Just like it's a shitty look on the palestinian defenders when they can't help but functionally exculpate Palestinian terrorism with what amounts to "but they're oppressed, so I understand, these things happen, let's move on."

This entire thing is full of shit and straw men..  Like a thousand percent brisket nuttiness on display.  I quite literally don't have the time or desire to answer it all.  Good day.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

10 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

I was specifically commenting on how the terrorist group Hamas does not have the earned credibility to be believed without a couple of independent verifications in a similar fashion of Israel and your assessment thereof. 

So instead of saying "beheaded babies" to drive home the point of disrepute, I should have used other examples. Got it.

I agree with the assessment in the first paragraph.  But yes, you don't back up a statement about lack of crediblity with a rumor that has no proof.

[troph 24,560]

36 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

It is impossible when an entire side of the world doesn't acknowledge what has actually be going on for a long time.

I dunno I watched news all last night and the narrative was Israel bombed a hospital not a Hamas rocket landed in a parking lot and exploded. I heard 500 dead, when it's clearly a lot less.

I think what Israel does in the westbank and the blockade on Gaza is well covered.  I actually think calling Hamas out on its fucking lies is what doesn't happen.  Hell, this morning, CNN reported the dispute and went out of their way to say it can't be confirmed. Last night the headline was Israel bombed a hospital killing 500.

[Da Fino 2,729]

38 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Something currently going on at the capital. Dark day for all of us.

Which capital? 

[troph 24,560]

36 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Duh.  Follow their IG, but you should only look at their posts that feature them and their friends in swimsuits around the pool having daytime margaritas.  Do I have to explain how to do EVERYTHING to y'all?

why do you think I follow them? you can take the hound dog out of the boy but you can't take the hound dog out of the girl or something like that.

[chainsaw 9,836]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I sure as hell didn't ever blindly accept the beheading babies story - I still haven't seen anything close to proof.

But you spend 10X the energy on disputing that story than on placing culpability on Hamas.  Your take, like that of most of the apologists, is "yes, crimes were committed.  Very bad.  Let's move on so I can get to my agenda: Fuck Israel with everything capable of fucking Israel."

Nope.  We don't get to just skip the fuck over Hamas's crimes, both their crimes in the attack on civilians and on their undeniable and documented war crimes of sheltering military assets in civilian structures like schools.  The level of moral culpability on Hamas, and yes, on the people who support them, is fucking substantial, and must be dealt with.

As must Israel's ongoing crimes in the West Bank. And Likud's plan to foment further discord to give Israel the opportunity to exercise force again and again.  And the list goes on.  

Maybe what I'm sick of is the fucking narrative of "yeah, I know, to be intellectually honest, I have to say that both sides bear responsibility, but having said that, I'm going to skip right over the horrific shit by the side I support, and focus exclusively on the horrific shit by the side I want to demonize."  I'll certainly note that plenty of the "I stand with Israel crowd" does this, and it's a shitty look.  Just like it's a shitty look on the palestinian defenders when they can't help but functionally exculpate Palestinian terrorism with what amounts to "but they're oppressed, so I understand, these things happen, let's move on."

 

I'm still waiting to see who has cited Hamas as a credible source and when they did it. It was a bold claim and I'm excited to see it proven in real time.

Maybe we would have had more time to dissect Hamas's crimes if we didn't have to focus on the bigger story of crimes against humanity being committed by a nation state, with the full backing of the most powerful economies on the planet, over the past several days.

There's no debating that what Hamas did was atrocious, and where there's nothing to debate, there's little to discuss. Why would anyone be outraged that a more controversial topic generates more robust discussion?

I hold Israel to a higher standard because it claims to have the moral high ground and it has the resources to be held to a higher standard. There is no excuse for war crimes. Ever. That's what we've been discussing for the past few days. Nobody can seriously confuse our focus on these current events for a tolerance of the terrorism that has precipitated them. We're all adults here, and surely we can understand the difference.

[Brisketexan 104,537]

4 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

This entire thing is full of shit and straw men..  Like a thousand percent brisket nuttiness on display.  I quite literally don't have the time or desire to answer it all.  Good day.

Yeah, I guess I just didn't see the pro-Palestinian, put functionally all blame, responsibility, and burden on Israel narratives all over this site and the world in general these past few days (much of it before the Israeli civilian bodies were even cold).  Nope, that just didn't happen.

Fucking gaslighting.  Fuck that shit.  Own your position.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I dunno I watched news all last night and the narrative was Israel bombed a hospital not a Hamas rocket landed in a parking lot and exploded. I heard 500 dead, when it's clearly a lot less.

I think what Israel does in the westbank and the blockade on Gaza is well covered.  I actually think calling Hamas out on its fucking lies is what doesn't happen.  Hell, this morning, CNN reported the dispute and went out of their way to say it can't be confirmed. Last night the headline was Israel bombed a hospital killing 500.

Sorry troph, meant on the larger scale, not the hospital thing.  The bigger picture of colonialism, occupation, apartheid, e.t.c.   Start with Amnesty International

[Brisketexan 104,537]

Just now, chainsaw said:

 

I'm still waiting to see who has cited Hamas as a credible source and when they did it. It was a bold claim and I'm excited to see it proven in real time.

Maybe we would have had more time to dissect Hamas's crimes if we didn't have to focus on the bigger story of crimes against humanity being committed by a nation state, with the full backing of the most powerful economies on the planet, over the past several days.

There's no debating that what Hamas did was atrocious, and where there's nothing to debate, there's little to discuss. Why would anyone be outraged that a more controversial topic generates more robust discussion?

I hold Israel to a higher standard because it claims to have the moral high ground and it has the resources to be held to a higher standard. There is no excuse for war crimes. Ever. That's what we've been discussing for the past few days. Nobody can seriously confuse our focus on these current events for a tolerance of the terrorism that has precipitated them. We're all adults here, and surely we can understand the difference.

Yet the burden is solely on Israel to come to the table and concede....well, as I've seen posted around here.....everything.

Sorry.  I just believe that a good-faith negotiation and discussion is impossible to have.  We can't even have it here, thousands of miles away.  It's got to be a million times more impossible there in the levant.

[chainsaw 9,836]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Yet the burden is solely on Israel to come to the table and concede.

What's wrong with that?