Israel

[troph 24781]

 

13 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

Sorry troph, meant on the larger scale, not the hospital thing.  The bigger picture of colonialism, occupation, apartheid, e.t.c.   Start with Amnesty International

I respect your position, though I do think that those components are well covered - as well covered as they can be in the way our media functions - meaning you can find that with credible news outlets just not cable networks.  and we may disagree but I think the media response right now is slanted to the Palestinians for this war as evidenced by the handling of the hospital blast.

I'm also not sure your background, but this seems personal possibly maybe I'm wrong - but it's certainly personal for others and most likely some on this board. My only approach here is to seek consistency, fairness and understanding. There are 4 parties here - terrorists, far-right leaning government, Palestinian people and Israelis. I think the terrorists need to be obliterated from the Earth, the far-right leaning government needs to be ousted from power and the people on both sides need to have a chance for peace. I do not support killing civilians, I do not support apartheid or oppression. I also don't like and frankly am driven bonkers by the failure of anyone to see how all of these decisions are in a loop that hasn't stopped for over 100 years. I'm not saying it's right, but I am saying there is no solution that starts with "this side needs to blah blah blah" and the only solution requires both sides to stop. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[troph 24781]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What's wrong with that?

for starters it won't work, for seconds it will only embolden terrorists. see my post above that any solution requiring one side to do something and leaving out the other will fail before it begins.

[chainsaw 9861]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

for starters it won't work, for seconds it will only embolden terrorists. see my post above that any solution requiring one side to do something and leaving out the other will fail before it begins.

Both sides should made concessions. Is that a bad thing? Seems pretty standard.

[RomaVicta 29902]

30 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Except that it wasn’t.

English, motherfucker. Look up apparently. Apply to the context of what I wrote about it being an initial reaction.

Then go jump up your own ass.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

I’m happy to call Hamas subhuman baby killers, because they are. It may be difficult to put all the heads back on all the right bodies but they did go on a murderous, baby-killing, head chopping rampage against Israel. Unlike “Israel bombed this hospital and killed 500 people,” the statement “Hamas poured across the border to murder families and babies and cut heads off” is absolutely true. 
 

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/International/horror-israeli-authorities-show-footage-hamas-atrocities-reporters-notebook/story?id=104015431

Quote

Editor's note: This reporting contains extremely graphic descriptions.

"You won't see rape, there's no rape in this video... We won't show you beheaded babies," a senior Israeli officer said to a small group of journalists, saying such images existed but would not be shown.

 

Spoiler

The journalists were the first to watch a screening of an hour-long reel cobbled together from Hamas helmet cam, mobile phone video, surveillance video, dashboard camera video and victims' livestreams.

It was part of the Israeli military's effort to document and call attention to the Oct. 7 atrocities, when the militant group Hamaslaunched an unprecedented attack on Israel from air, land and sea. More than 1,400 people have died and 3,400 others have been injured in Israel, authorities said. In Gaza, at least 2,750 people have been killed in retaliatory strikes from Israel, and thousands more injured, according to the Palestinian Health Authority.

Journalists were not allowed to record or use the video presented, and our phones were deposited outside the room.

Spoiler

The video started slowly. Hamas fighters are seen on the back of a pickup, with RPGs spiking out in every direction. You can sense their excitement. The video shows several groups cut through the fence and wave a pickup truck through.

Then it shows three separate angles of motorists in Israel being flagged down, then gunned down -- the AK-47s puffing smoke -- on the road outside the Kfar Aza and Be'eri kibbutzim. Bodies are yanked out of cars.

Spoiler

Then a pair of attackers in Be'eri is shown. For several minutes, we watch as they amble around the kibbutz. They poke into one house and you can hear someone's alarm going off. It's 8 a.m. You can hear them breathing heavily. The one wearing the body camera has a high, soft-spoken voice that seems to belie his mission.

At a playground, he wonders in Arabic, "Where are the kids?" The duo set fire to one house, shoot an encroaching dog, and shoot another old man through a darkened screen. They are parsimonious with their ammunition, and chillingly unhurried as they pick through the tidy vegetable gardens and open the latches of wooden fences.

Quote

Then the video gets grisly. Other militants are busy mashing a dying man's face with their boots. Another pair screams "Allahu akbar" as they use a garden hoe to try to decapitate another man.

In another house, a gunman sticks the muzzle of his rifle into a room inhabited by a family. It's a mash of colors. In one, a terrorist is standing on an Israeli man's chest and shoots him point-blank in the face.

Quote

Then, the scenes of bloodied bedrooms start to blur. The rooms and the gore are the same -- it's how the bodies are arrayed in death that's different. There are so many children. Some are jam-packed together in a slippery mass of human flesh. Huge blood stains streak the tiles.

So many of the bodies are burnt. It was unclear if this was because they were set fire to or if it was from the grenade blasts. Other videos show Israeli first responders trying to put out the still-smoldering skeletal remains of victims -- with water bottles, as if watering a parched plant.

Quote

Outside, soldiers are decapitated. Otherwise, the bodies seem untouched. The heads were not in the images.

 

[Huckleberry 32850]

42 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I sure as hell didn't ever blindly accept the beheading babies story - I still haven't seen anything close to proof.

But you spend 10X the energy on disputing that story than on placing culpability on Hamas.  Your take, like that of most of the apologists, is "yes, crimes were committed.  Very bad.  Let's move on so I can get to my agenda: Fuck Israel with everything capable of fucking Israel."

Nope.  We don't get to just skip the fuck over Hamas's crimes, both their crimes in the attack on civilians and on their undeniable and documented war crimes of sheltering military assets in civilian structures like schools.  The level of moral culpability on Hamas, and yes, on the people who support them, is fucking substantial, and must be dealt with.

As must Israel's ongoing crimes in the West Bank. And Likud's plan to foment further discord to give Israel the opportunity to exercise force again and again.  And the list goes on.  

Maybe what I'm sick of is the fucking narrative of "yeah, I know, to be intellectually honest, I have to say that both sides bear responsibility, but having said that, I'm going to skip right over the horrific shit by the side I support, and focus exclusively on the horrific shit by the side I want to demonize."  I'll certainly note that plenty of the "I stand with Israel crowd" does this, and it's a shitty look.  Just like it's a shitty look on the palestinian defenders when they can't help but functionally exculpate Palestinian terrorism with what amounts to "but they're oppressed, so I understand, these things happen, let's move on."

You're doing the exact same thing in reverse. This whole thread is

[troph 24781]

23 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Both sides should made concessions. Is that a bad thing? Seems pretty standard.

Can't concede with terrorists. They have to be eliminated first. That may seem like a convenient position to you but it's pretty much a universal truth.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[DDD Dad 14331]

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

What about the US DOD?

[DDD Dad 14331]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

Nope.  We don't get to just skip the fuck over Hamas's crimes, both their crimes in the attack on civilians and on their undeniable and documented war crimes of sheltering military assets in civilian structures like schools.  The level of moral culpability on Hamas, and yes, on the people who support them, is fucking substantial, and must be dealt with.

As must Israel's ongoing crimes in the West Bank. And Likud's plan to foment further discord to give Israel the opportunity to exercise force again and again.  And the list goes on.  

I'll certainly note that plenty of the "I stand with Israel crowd" does this, and it's a shitty look.  Just like it's a shitty look on the palestinian defenders when they can't help but functionally exculpate Palestinian terrorism with what amounts to "but they're oppressed, so I understand, these things happen, let's move on."

[chainsaw 9861]

22 minutes ago, troph said:

Can't concede with terrorists. They have to be eliminated first. That may seem like a convenient position to you but it's pretty much a universal truth.

Less than 2% of the people being bombed are terrorists. You can't just dismiss the legitimate positions of 2.2 million people because a tiny fraction of them, who have held on to power undemocratically (with Israel's support of late, by the way) and who barely won by 29k votes in 2006 after campaigning on fighting corruption, made a rogue decision to commit an act of terror.

Israel is in the driver's seat here. By refusing to consider peace, they are prolonging the deadly conflict.

[troph 24781]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Less than 2% of the people being bombed are terrorists. You can't just dismiss the legitimate positions of 2.2 million people because a tiny fraction of them, who have held on to power undemocratically (with Israel's support of late, by the way) and who barely won by 29k votes in 2006 after campaigning on fighting corruption, made a rogue decision to commit an act of terror.

Israel is in the driver's seat here. By refusing to consider peace, they are prolonging the deadly conflict.

I’m not dismissing anything.  Terrorists - even more so these terrorists - can’t be at the table to negotiate, they can’t have power and they can’t have military capability they have to be gone. Unfortunately these terrorists are wedged in the middle and until they are gone it’s unrealistic to ask Israel to take the first step to stop. Terrorists gotta go, first. 
 

You clearly think the only roadblock to peace is Israel laying down arms and oppression and that as soon as Israel takes a reconciliation approach it will happen but that’s simply untrue.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[Anastasis 23464]

Israel is an apartheid state that was built on terrorism and uses terrorism against civilians every day. And given that the power asymmetry strongly is in their favor, maybe they should be the ones that gotta go, first. Somebody just fucking go, for christ sake. America should apply extreme pressure on Israel or just stop sending them weapons and money. 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Anastasis

[David Dennison 18851]

34 minutes ago, troph said:

Can't concede with terrorists. They have to be eliminated first. That may seem like a convenient position to you but it's pretty much a universal truth.

You can, however, change the policies that breed terrorism.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

This right here. Given the fact IDF had already shelled the oncology floors of the very same hospital, the available video of the impact at the time the news broke, the available video of airstrikes to the vicinity after the hospital impact, and the shifting explanations coming from IDF, the most likely explanation at that time was that the cause of the explosion was that it was an airstrike. With the benefit of daylight, we can see there's no JDAM crater and that the impact site was thankfully away from the building, although the death toll is still likely to be substantial.

When you have unclean hands, as Israel does, you also have no credibility. I'm hoping we get some independent, credible analysis of where the projectile came from and who launched it. I can't simply take Israel's word that it was who they claim it was.

 

5 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And the NSC Spox also confirms it:

I can predict with near 100 percent certainty that the discourse will shift from “of course it was Israel” to “the U.S. and Israel are just as unreliable as Hamas, despite the vast delta in evidence.” And then to “it doesn’t matter who actually bombed it because Israel is responsible for everything ultimately.” 

It will likely happen on this thread. 

LOL, we are exactly at the midway point closing in on the home destination. 
 

Also, there has never been a time that one version or the other was more likely true. It’s always been a 1 or 0 each direction from the moment it happened, this isn’t Schroediner’s Explosion where both Israel and Hamas did it until you turn on Al Jazeera. 

[G650 14246]

47 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You're doing the exact same thing in reverse. This whole thread is

Especially the last few pages

[troph 24781]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

You can, however, change the policies that breed terrorism.

I agree. And it’s also justifiable to eliminate terrorists militarily first then retreat on shitty oppressive policies. That’s what happens when terrorists do terrorist things.

[Anastasis 23464]

Just now, troph said:

And it’s also justifiable to eliminate terrorists militarily first then retreat on shitty oppressive policies.

Yeah, that second part...don't hold your breath. Turn the strip to glass and the shit in the WB is only going to get worse. And we will turn a blind eye. 

[David Dennison 18851]

Just now, troph said:

I agree. And it’s also justifiable to eliminate terrorists militarily first then retreat on shitty oppressive policies. That’s what happens when terrorists do terrorist things.

It is, so long as everyone is on notice that collective punishment is completely unacceptable.

[Tonesky 932]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

Apparently a building had been devastated.

1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Except that it wasn’t.

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

English, motherfucker. Look up apparently. Apply to the context of what I wrote about it being an initial reaction.

Then go jump up your own ass.

Except that it wasn't.  The only "evidence" of such "devastation" was from Hamas, which you blindly accepted as accurate.  Your reaction was less based on the initial available information, than on your bias.  I own my bias favoring Israel (while detesting Netanyahu, and acknowledging the contribution of government policy and so called settlers).  Maybe you should own your bias favoring Hamas and terrorism.   

[RomaVicta 29902]

4 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Except that it wasn't.  The only "evidence" of such "devastation" was from Hamas, which you blindly accepted as accurate.  Your reaction was less based on the initial available information, than on your bias.  I own my bias favoring Israel (while detesting Netanyahu, and acknowledging the contribution of government policy and so called settlers).  Maybe you should own your bias favoring Hamas and terrorism.   

[chainsaw 9861]

Just now, troph said:

it’s also justifiable to eliminate terrorists militarily

It really depends how you go about doing that. And if the goal is peace, the how is even more important.

[hobbes2702 13031]

22 minutes ago, G650 said:

Especially the last few pages

[Jatrain 288]

32 minutes ago, troph said:

I’m not dismissing anything.  Terrorists - even more so these terrorists - can’t be at the table to negotiate, they can’t have power and they can’t have military capability they have to be gone. Unfortunately these terrorists are wedged in the middle and until they are gone it’s unrealistic to ask Israel to take the first step to stop. Terrorists gotta go, first. 
 

You clearly think the only roadblock to peace is Israel laying down arms and oppression and that as soon as Israel takes a reconciliation approach it will happen but that’s simply untrue.

Is shooting journalists in the head, building settlements, etc necessary for Israel to fight terrorism or maybe could they stop doing those things and still fight it?  Do they get free pass on all their actions because they are fighting terrorists?

 

 

[Tonesky 932]

26 minutes ago, troph said:

it’s also justifiable to eliminate terrorists militarily

 

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It really depends how you go about doing that. And if the goal is peace, the how is even more important.

Not trying to be a dick.  Maybe there is an obvious example I am unable to recall.  Please share historical successful examples of this.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6559]

Just now, chainsaw said:

It really depends how you go about doing that. And if the goal is peace, the how is even more important.

Tell us how Israel should go about doing it then?  

I mean, lets say you live in San Diego and if there was a Mexican terrorist group that came across the border from Tijuana and murdered 1400 woman and children from the US and took a few hundred hostages to boot back across the border into Mexico what would the US do?  If the terrorists went back to densely populated Tijuana and surrounded themselves with civilians would our government say, “eh too bad but we can’t do anything so let’s do nothing and see if they do it again.”  I’m pretty sure the citizens of this country would also be screaming for retribution and the dismantling of said Mexican terrorist group.  Maybe the Mexican terrorists believe California should still be theirs and the US stole the land from them and nothing will matter until all US citizens in CA are dead or move out  (We could do this for TX instead of CA also).

 

Brisket, nothing against Mexicans just using it as an example.  I guess I could do the same fake scenario with Canada technically. 

[Anastasis 23464]

I am convinced that some of the lawyers here make real fucking hay in front of juries by rolling out acontextual analogies that in the end effectively misrepresent and strain complex realities. But if it works I guess it works. Just don't expect that none of us see through it. 

[chainsaw 9861]

13 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Tell us how Israel should go about doing it then?  

I mean, lets say you live in San Diego and if there was a Mexican terrorist group that came across the border from Tijuana and murdered 1400 woman and children from the US and took a few hundred hostages to boot back across the border into Mexico what would the US do?  If the terrorists went back to densely populated Tijuana and surrounded themselves with civilians would our government say, “eh too bad but we can’t do anything so let’s do nothing and see if they do it again.”  I’m pretty sure the citizens of this country would also be screaming for retribution and the dismantling of said Mexican terrorist group.  Maybe the Mexican terrorists believe California should still be theirs and the US stole the land from them and nothing will matter until all US citizens in CA are dead or move out  (We could do this for TX instead of CA also).

 

Brisket, nothing against Mexicans just using it as an example.  I guess I could do the same fake scenario with Canada technically. 

I've answered that question before.

Mexico isn't an apartheid state controlled by the US, and the cartel was not elected in 2006 by a slim margin nor has it held onto power undemocratically, but if it were the case that both of those untrue things were true, it would be a smart first step for the US to stop doing the apartheid.

Second step would be to use its world class intelligence apparatus to target cartel operatives, and not civilians.

To kill civilians or to inflict collective punishment such as shutting off food, water, and energy supplies, is neither productive nor legal.

To promote peace long term, Israel needs to cease its occupation of Palestine, it needs to participate in the reconstruction of Palestinian infrastructure and institutions, and it needs to pay reparations to the victims of the occupation (including to Israeli civilians who have suffered from collateral damage).

 

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

The majority of the US protestors in these shots would last maybe a week in Gaza before being tossed off a building

[chainsaw 9861]

1 minute ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

 

 

 

The majority of the US protestors in these shots would last maybe a week in Gaza before being tossed off a building

"Jews opposing war is worse than 9/11" is certainly a take.

[David Dennison 18851]

3 hours ago, troph said:

why? so terrorists have most space to plan vicious attacks?  I personally think Israel should vacate the West Bank and leave Gaza alone but let's get real clear what happens next. It will take years but the terrorist organizations - Hamas and Hezbollah - will coordinate, train and plan additional attacks.

You guys one siding this are not seeing clearly.

It's an IMPOSSIBLE situation.

No one is one siding anything. Hamas and the like must be stopped. The state of Israel, however, as the most powerful player in this conflict, needs to change the way it treats Palestinians. If it doesn't, neither side will ever have peace, no matter how much punishment Israel inflicts on terrorists.

Edited October 18, 2023 by David Dennison

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

No one is one siding anything. Hamas and the like must be stopped. The state of Israel, however, as the most powerful player in this conflict, needs to change the way it treats Palestinians. If it doesn't, neither side will ever have peace, no matter how much punishment Israel inflicts on terrorists.

As far as I’m concerned, Palestine parties on our darkest day ever, even before Hamas was in charge there. Why should Israel change its ways? Fuck em

[David Dennison 18851]

Just now, MNLonghornFUKM said:

As far as I’m concerned, Palestine parties on our darkest day ever, even before Hamas was in charge there. Why should Israel change its was? Fuck em

Mainly because it claims to want peace, but also because oppression breeds violence.

[MNLonghornFUKM 8817]

Mainly because it claims to want peace, but also because oppression breeds violence.

Not sure if you’re aware but Basically every country in the region has a level 3 or level 4 travel alert from the US state department all saying the same thing for traveling Americans : US has little control and can’t save you, draft a will, beware of terrorism, kidnapping, death.

[DixonHur 11296]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Mainly because it claims to want peace, but also because oppression breeds violence.

As long as Israel exists as a Jewish state there will be violence.  Period.

Does Israel do shit that doesn't help the situation?  Absolutely, but the biggest issue for Hamas and Hezbollah is that Israel exists at all.

[C-Man 27199]

Don't know if this has been posted as there's no time stamp. I've been away from my computer most of the day so don't know if it's been discussed. I also do not trust the IDF to be completely on the level, especially if they did (even accidentally) bombed the hospital in Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/idf-audio-allegedly-capturing-hamas-operatives-gaza-hospital-bts-vpx.cnn

[troph 24781]

1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

 

Not trying to be a dick.  Maybe there is an obvious example I am unable to recall.  Please share historical successful examples of this.

Exactly why peace is impossible but a weakened terrorist organization is better than a stronger one. While oppression breeds hate so does a stronger terrorist organization. 
 

people act like the solution set is easy - if only Israel would stop it would start to work. That’s a nice sentiment I wish it was true it’s a crock of shit. Hell the world erupted in protests overnight on Hamas misinformation. You think misinformation would continue if Israel stopped? Spoiler alert it would not. 

[troph 24781]

2 minutes ago, C-Man said:

Don't know if this has been posted as there's no time stamp. I've been away from my computer most of the day so don't know if it's been discussed. I also do not trust the IDF to be completely on the level, especially if they did (even accidentally) bombed the hospital in Gaza.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/idf-audio-allegedly-capturing-hamas-operatives-gaza-hospital-bts-vpx.cnn

It’s pretty well established after a day of news that israel did not bomb a hospital instead a Hamas rocket landed in a hospital parking lot. It’s also highly likely the casualties were far below 500. It’s also well established that Hamas used the explosion to spark more outrage, and it worked.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[956 Worldwide 34705]

17 minutes ago, MNLonghornFUKM said:

Not sure if you’re aware but Basically every country in the region has a level 3 or level 4 travel alert from the US state department all saying the same thing for traveling Americans : US has little control and can’t save you, draft a will, beware of terrorism, kidnapping, death.

The world is about to get another lesson in the power of atrocity propaganda and why the intended audience is at least as important as the source and the content. 

[troph 24781]

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Is shooting journalists in the head, building settlements, etc necessary for Israel to fight terrorism or maybe could they stop doing those things and still fight it?  Do they get free pass on all their actions because they are fighting terrorists?

 

 

I’ve said they should stop West Bank bullshit.
 

But I do not think they should disengage in eliminating Hamas or at least greatly reducing their capacity and that is war, people will die.
 

I think destroying factories, munitions storage, weapons, leaders, fighters, all of the tunnels are entirely on the table. 

[Brian Fantana 6683]

7 hours ago, babysdaddy said:

Democratic members of congress posting their truth. These two asswipes didn't say shit for days and then, when they could blame Israel for something regardless if was true or not, they were able to get a tweet out within minutes on the hospital bombing.  And they have left them up.  

I can't speak for Talib because I don't follow her on Twitter, but Ilhan Omar has been tweeting about this situation from the very beginning, and her fucking pinned tweet is condemning Hamas' actions on the day of so this seems like a pure lie.

[Brian Fantana 6683]

1 hour ago, Jatrain said:

Is shooting journalists in the head, building settlements, etc necessary for Israel to fight terrorism or maybe could they stop doing those things and still fight it?  Do they get free pass on all their actions because they are fighting terrorists?

 

 

"Well, yes!"

-- Americans that have apparently learned nothing from America's post-9/11 actions

[Brian Fantana 6683]

9 minutes ago, troph said:

I’ve said they should stop West Bank bullshit.
 

But I do not think they should disengage in eliminating Hamas or at least greatly reducing their capacity and that is war, people will die.
 

I think destroying factories, munitions storage, weapons, leaders, fighters, all of the tunnels are entirely on the table. 

The "West Bank bullshit" is just A) what Gaza without Hamas effectively is, and B) effectively how Israel has operated towards Palestinians since its inception/how it was created in the first place. What Israel does there isn't some unfortunate accident, it is simply their policy for how they treat even peaceful Palestinians. Hamas has no presence there, there is no excuse, but Western media will absolute never speak a word about it.

Eliminating Hamas in Gaza just lifts more barriers for Israel so they can do more settler terrorism/ethnic cleansing/colonialism/whatever the fuck you want to call it, it doesn't matter, it's all shit and a massive disaster.

I say all of that while also acknowledging that Hamas are subhuman terrorist cretins that absolutely need to be deleted from this Earth.

[troph 24781]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

"Well, yes!"

-- Americans that have apparently learned nothing from America's post-9/11 actions

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

[troph 24781]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

The "West Bank bullshit" is just A) what Gaza without Hamas effectively is, and B) effectively how Israel has operated towards Palestinians since its inception/how it was created in the first place. What Israel does there isn't some unfortunate accident, it is simply their policy for how they treat even peaceful Palestinians. Hamas has no presence there, there is no excuse, but Western media will absolute never speak a word about it.

Eliminating Hamas in Gaza just lifts more barriers for Israel so they can do more settler terrorism/ethnic cleansing/colonialism/whatever the fuck you want to call it, it doesn't matter, it's all shit and a massive disaster.

I say all of that while also acknowledging that Hamas are subhuman terrorist cretins that absolutely need to be deleted from this Earth.

And Palestinians have been engaging in terrorism against Israelis and Jews since even before the end of WWII. 
 

[F250 28766]

They hate us for our freedom.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by F250

[Brian Fantana 6683]

1 minute ago, troph said:

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

I don't disagree. I didn't say everything we did post-9/11 was bad, just most of it.

Terrorists should be eliminated yes, but we never seem to do the other thing which is maybe explore the reasons they exist in the first place and then maybe stop doing those things.

[F250 28766]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

First 6-12 months of Afghanistan were warranted and required. The fact that Islamic jihadists won’t go away doesn’t mean you let them strengthen and thrive.  It’s like we didn’t learn anything from pre-9/11.

I am unapologetic - terrorists should be killed and eliminated. 

Were you a Republican twenty years ago?

[Brian Fantana 6683]

1 minute ago, troph said:

And Palestinians have been engaging in terrorism against Israelis and Jews since even before the end of WWII. 
 

As if to illustrate the point I made in my last post, I wonder when the movement to displace Palestinians began and why they might have started to get upset about it. I guess it is really unfortunate that Palestinians forced Israel to murder tens of thousands and displace hundreds of thousands of them. They should really work on that.

[troph 24781]

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

[troph 24781]

2 minutes ago, F250 said:

Were you a Republican twenty years ago?

I was and I would still support military action in Afghanistan. Hell I’m supporting military action against Hamas right now. Granted if Israel stopped and said we’ve gotten enough of Hamas leadership let’s have a ceasefire I would be happy - though I think Hamas isn’t interested they want more fighting.