Israel

[Boss Hogg 808]

 

[David Dennison 18646]

46 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

As long as Israel exists as a Jewish state there will be violence.  Period.

Does Israel do shit that doesn't help the situation?  Absolutely, but the biggest issue for Hamas and Hezbollah is that Israel exists at all.

They should stop doing that. Might as well try. 

[David Dennison 18646]

7 minutes ago, troph said:

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

It is also inaccurate to blame ordinary Palestinians.

[troph 24560]

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

As if to illustrate the point I made in my last post, I wonder when the movement to displace Palestinians began and why they might have started to get upset about it. I guess it is really unfortunate that Palestinians forced Israel to murder tens of thousands and displace hundreds of thousands of them. They should really work on that.

Jewish massacres took place in Palestine long before there was a Jewish state. 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

6 minutes ago, troph said:

The thing with people who blame Israel fail to realize is this shit has been going on since inception and will not stop. I don’t like it, but this isn’t solely Israel’s fault. And so Israel stopping won’t stop shit. And too many people apply a rational logic here. There is no rational logic. There is religious extremism and that’s it.
 

Truly it’s probably the fault of Europe and the US for enforcing a state of Israel on the area - that ship sailed hundreds and hundreds of years ago. it’s also understandable after the holocaust to designate a nation state. But damn.
 

But to continue to blame israel as the origin of the problem is just not accurate.

No one here is trying to solely blame Israel. You're just making that up in your head. There are so many parties that shoulder pieces of the blame in this situation it's frankly hard to keep track. My issue is simply the absolute bullshit, dogwater, smooth brained dipshit narrative of how they have been forced into every awful fucking thing they have done since 1948.

[troph 24560]

Just now, David Dennison said:

It is also inaccurate to blame ordinary Palestinians.

No one should be blamed for something they didn’t do, but the history is a lot messier than just this group or just that group. 

[F250 28674]

2 minutes ago, troph said:

I was and I would still support military action in Afghanistan. Hell I’m supporting military action against Hamas right now. Granted if Israel stopped and said we’ve gotten enough of Hamas leadership let’s have a ceasefire I would be happy - though I think Hamas isn’t interested they want more fighting.

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

[troph 24560]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

No one here is trying to solely blame Israel. You're just making that up in your head. There are so many parties that shoulder pieces of the blame in this situation it's frankly hard to keep track. My issue is simply the absolute bullshit, dogwater, smooth brained dipshit narrative of how they have been forced into every awful fucking thing they have done since 1948.

Dude - like half a dozen of you ONLY talk about what Israel must do.

[David Dennison 18646]

Just now, troph said:

No one should be blamed for something they didn’t do, but the history is a lot messier than just this group or just that group. 

[David Dennison 18646]

Just now, troph said:

Dude - like half a dozen of you ONLY talk about what Israel must do.

Part of the reason for that is because there is no corresponding Palestinian state.

[troph 24560]

Just now, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

I don’t have tolerance for terrorism. that may be my only hold over from the early 2000’s. 
 

I wish I could be a pacifist but I gave that up too when I realized libertarianism is a juvenile world view sometime in my early 30’s. 
 

I very much wish for peace but to be honest I don’t see it ever happening. I don’t think israel sees it happening and I don’t think Hamas wants it if it means anything other than the state is dissolved and Jews are eliminated.

You really can’t do anything with that. 

[troph 24560]

4 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Part of the reason for that is because there is no corresponding Palestinian state.

I truly support that but I also recognize as soon as there is such a state israel will be facing a “military” orders of magnitude stronger than Hamas and hezbollah right now. 

let me be super clear - I support dual state solution and I wish both sides could find peace - but I think the reason israel is reticent to lay down arms and let that happen is because it’s not enough for those who have power and military authority on the other side. I’m not supporting Israel’s refusal to move that direction I’m simply saying I suspect they see it as a death sentence not a path to peace.

Edited October 18, 2023 by troph

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Just now, troph said:

Dude - like half a dozen of you ONLY talk about what Israel must do.

After all this time, you really can't understand why? They're the ones with the power here. There can be no peace, it's absolutely impossible unless one of two things happen:

1. You kill all 5 million Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank OR
2. You stop the ethnic cleansing. which is kind of the major thing that causes groups like Hamas to arise in the first place

There is absolutely no way to move forward without one of two of those things happening. Who has the power to do either of those things? Hint: It's not Palestinians

If the shoe was on the other foot here, we are talking about what Palestine must do. But they can't do a fucking thing. They have no power, against Israel OR Hamas. That's why we talk about what Israel must do.

[Tonesky 917]

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I truly support that but I also recognize as soon as there is such a state israel will be facing a military orders of magnitude stronger than Hamas and hezbollah right now. 

let me be super clear - I support that - but I think the reason israel is reticent to lay down arms and let that happen is because it’s not enough for those who have power and military authority on the other side. I’m not supporting Israel’s refusal to move that direction I’m simply saying I suspect they see it as a death sentence not a path to peace.

But nowhere near as strong as Israel and its allies.

 

[F250 28674]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I don’t have tolerance for terrorism. that may be my only hold over from the early 2000’s. 
 

I wish I could be a pacifist but I gave that up too when I realized libertarianism is a juvenile world view sometime in my early 30’s. 
 

I very much wish for peace but to be honest I don’t see it ever happening. I don’t think israel sees it happening and I don’t think Hamas wants it if it means anything other than the state is dissolved and Jews are eliminated.

You really can’t do anything with that. 

In my view framing this as a terrorism problem is a mistake because it ignores all of nuances that are involved in this conflict.

It was the same mistake that the U.S. made under Dubya during that entire circle jerk of freedom fries.

I only brought this up because your rhetoric sounds like the greatest hits from the war on terror.

 

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

That sounds like politics.

[Brian Fantana 6667]

2 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

[Dbeasy 14962]

12 minutes ago, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

 

What are you even saying?

[troph 24560]

1 minute ago, F250 said:

In my view framing this as a terrorism problem is a mistake because it ignores all of nuances that are involved in this conflict.

It was the same mistake that the U.S. made under Dubya during that entire circle jerk of freedom fries.

I only brought this up because your rhetoric sounds like the greatest hits from the war on terror.

 

I think the last 10 days are terrorism. 
 

the rest of it is a fucking quagmire and to tell the story would be like Chunk spilling his guts under threat of having his hand spun in a blender…. And then… and then… and then… 

 

[troph 24560]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

[troph 24560]

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

But nowhere near as strong as Israel and its allies.

 

So even more violence against Israel followed by more military action by Israel against Palestinians? 

[G650 14074]

12 minutes ago, troph said:

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have.

Do I need to post Sykes Picot again

[David Dennison 18646]

11 minutes ago, troph said:

So even more violence against Israel followed by more military action by Israel against Palestinians? 

Until diplomacy wins out.

[Brian Fantana 6667]

11 minutes ago, troph said:

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

Of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing to do and that Palestinians don't have a right to be angry about a forced, mass displacement from their lands. It's absolutely unreal the amount of arm twisting you have to do to get anyone in the Western world to admit that.

Just upthread, a few posts ago we have some goo-brained moron incredulous about them simply wanting back what was taken from them. The AUDACITY.

[DixonHur 11154]

39 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

They should stop doing that. Might as well try. 

Agreed

[troph 24560]

12 minutes ago, G650 said:

Do I need to post Sykes Picot again

Possibly. It’s pretty simple, most places on earth that are in perpetual conflict are due to stupid fucking Europeans mostly Brits drawing lines on a map like a kid with a crayon. 
 

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Until diplomacy wins out.

I’m optimistic by nature but you clearly are more than I am.

Edited October 19, 2023 by troph

[956 Worldwide 34412]

21 minutes ago, troph said:

This goes way back before that and you know it. Yes the Brits and Americans acquiesced to the Zionists after WWII and maybe they shouldn’t have. I’ll concede that and have on this thread. But post holocaust and after pogroms all over the world frankly it’s hard to say what should have been done.

The Palestinians are sadly far from unique in getting fucked over by modern map drawing and finding themselves in a country they don’t like with a government that takes a shit on them. That’s all true. Ask the Kurds or the Tibetans or the Uighurs or the Rohingya. The Uighurs are just getting stuffed into old-fashioned prisons, not open air prisons). 
 

Also true is that we hear about them nonstop because there is a significant portion of people among their oppressors who would like to find a modus vivendi and turn the heat down if terrorists would just stop blowing shit up for a hot minute. Try going like two years without a rocket attack and see if Bibi is still electable.  
 

Trying to redraw maps you don’t like through violence is a loser game whether you’re Russia or Hamas. Better to come to terms with the borders and try to find a way to live with it 

Edited October 19, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[troph 24560]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Of course, but that doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing to do and that Palestinians don't have a right to be angry about a forced, mass displacement from their lands. It's absolutely unreal the amount of arm twisting you have to do to get anyone in the Western world to admit that.

Just upthread, a few posts ago we have some goo-brained moron incredulous about them simply wanting back what was taken from them. The AUDACITY.

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

[G650 14074]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Trying to redraw maps you don’t like through violence is a loser game whether you’re Russia or Hamas. Better to come to terms with the borders and try to find a way to live with it 

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

1 minute ago, troph said:

their ancestral land in the 1940s

Say what now

[David Dennison 18646]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

[troph 24560]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

Say what now

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

Edited October 19, 2023 by troph

[troph 24560]

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

See above.

[DixonHur 11154]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

 

2 minutes ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions. 

 

1 minute ago, troph said:

See above.

Abrahamic religions have been around for about 4,500 years, Native Americans were here 20,000+ years ago.

[G650 14074]

3 minutes ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

Dude its been continuously settled since Neolithic times by a smorgasbord of people.

[troph 24560]

Just now, DixonHur said:

 

 

Abrahamic religions have been around for about 4,500 years, Native Americans were here 20,000+ years ago.

I’m not being the arbiter here I’m simply stating the position. Folks say the Palestinians were displaced that’s true. But this history isn’t 100 years old it’s thousands of years old and there certainly is a view that these lands were Hebrew lands from way back. I’m simply saying that is part of the problem too.

otherwise start another thread. And as soon as you and Dennison agree to give your homes back to the tribes they belong to I’ll do the same. 

[troph 24560]

3 minutes ago, G650 said:

Dude it’s been continuously settled since Neolithic times by a smorgasbord of people.

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not definitely saying who it belongs to.

Edited October 19, 2023 by troph

[Tonesky 917]

 

50 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

 

47 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You mean like there used to be, before it was forcibly taken from them? I can't imagine why they'd hold such a belief, you fucking dumbass.

Totally aggy to pick the beginning date the facilitates your desired conclusion.  There was never a Palestine.  They had no state taken from them.  Yes, some fled under duress, but most left as instructed by the surrounding Arab states, who promised they could return after we destroy Israel.  Conversely, there were Jews there before the Zionists arrived, as in, pretty much forever - except of course, for those ethnically cleansed, as you would say. 

But, nice of you to basically admit your end game - a single Palestinian state.  I may continue to poke at you for sport, but fuck you to the end of time.

[956 Worldwide 34412]

13 minutes ago, G650 said:

Eh, half the people you listed would disagree as China is taking their country by violence.

Say what now

That’s kind of my point, the Palestinians have a much more malleable and influenceable counter-party to work with.  If a Tibetan independence movement killed 1000+ Han Chinese tomorrow, Xi would not be accepting a visit from Biden on how he needs to open a humanitarian corridor. In the real world, the weaker party is the one that needs to climb down and unlike the Tibetans or Uighurs— the Palestinians could actually make some real forward progress if they did. 

[G650 14074]

1 minute ago, troph said:

I think you misunderstood me. I’m not definitely saying who it belongs to. I’m saying Jewish people claim it theirs too from thousands of years ago. This dispute to the claim to the land didn’t start 100 years ago.  That’s simply a comment to those saying Palestinians were displaced from their land - true and only part of the story.

Gotcha. You are correct theres been disputes in the region for thousands of years, but no, this particular dispute is absolutely 100 years old and very specific.

[G650 14074]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

That’s kind of my point, the Palestinians have a much more malleable and influenceable counter-party to work with.  If a Tibetan independence movement killed 1000+ Han Chinese tomorrow, Xi would not be accepting a visit from Biden on how he needs to open a humanitarian corridor. In the real world, the weaker party is the one that needs to climb down and unlike the Tibetans or Uighurs— the Palestinians could actually make some real forward progress if they did. 

Well you agree violence does indeed work then. Its just who happens to be partaking in it. We will have to disagree on the latter part though. I sincerely hope they desist in terror, but I have dim hopes they will make any progress. I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but unless western power leans on Israel I just don't see it.

[troph 24560]

5 minutes ago, G650 said:

Gotcha. You are correct theres been disputes in the region for thousands of years, but no, this particular dispute is absolutely 100 years old and very specific.

this specific problem is 100 years old I agree but the problem that was created 100 years ago didn’t just come out of nowhere. At this point we are quibbling over shit we agree about. I don’t need to do that. 
 

ps - In case you thought differently I’m not a zionist. I’m a realist. We are where we are. I have no viable solutions. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by troph

[Tonesky 917]

23 minutes ago, troph said:

I readily admit that. I also don’t see how you ignore the holocaust, pogroms, and other genocidal acts against Jews and not give them their ancestral land in the 1940s. It’s a fucked up situation. Lots of damned if you do and damned if you don’t. 

 

21 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Native Americans be like whaaaaaaaa?

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

[956 Worldwide 34412]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

Well you agree violence does indeed work then. Its just who happens to be partaking in it. We will have to disagree on the latter part though. I sincerely hope they desist in terror, but I have dim hopes they will make any progress. I'd certainly love to be proved wrong, but unless western power leans on Israel I just don't see it.

I think that history is full of violence working, unfortunately. Overwhelming violence has really been the most common solution to these intractable problems. It’s a rare counterparty that’s And's willing to give concessions from a position of strength, and you need to jump on that even if you don’t get everything you want. 

[G650 14074]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I think that history is full of violence working, unfortunately. Overwhelming violence has really been the most common solution to these intractable problems. It’s a rare counterparty that’s And's willing to give concessions from a position of strength, and you need to jump on that even if you don’t get everything you want. 

Yeah,  I don't disagree with that, I just don't see it any of it happening without a much greater outside force influencing the proceedings.

[TwiceHorn 31240]

Sure, individual Palestinians and groups of them have a legitimate grievance over being displaced, just like any "man."

But to say there was ever anything but a region of Palestine with ever-shifting borders and dozens of rulers of varying faiths before 1948 is nonsense.  

It has religious significance to Christians and Jews, and later (6-10 centuries later) to Muslims, but only really because of the Crusades, where Jerusalem was a hockey puck, eventually ending up in the hands of caliphates.

So, yeah, Sykes Picot chopped it up a bit.  Then of course the UN Mandate actually made a state out of it.  Really all that materially different from the neglectful rule of the other dozen or so absentee landlords that have controlled it over the millenia?

 

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[956 Worldwide 34412]

1 minute ago, G650 said:

Yeah,  I don't disagree with that, I just don't see it any of it happening without a much greater outside force influencing the proceedings.

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

[G650 14074]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

No to both.

 

ETA: When I say no they don't have a free hand, I mean wholesale destruction. I fully support them taking out every last member of Hamas.

Edited October 19, 2023 by G650

[hobbes2702 12791]

1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

Whose sock is this?

[Brian Fantana 6667]

18 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

 

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

You're right, I forgot that there definitely aren't millions of Palestinians living outside of Israel/Gaza/West Bank, and they definitely have the ability to leave. They're just treading water in the Mediterranean.

Oh, don't forget, we have to continue conflating Jewish people with Israel. You fucking racist piece of shit. Fuck off.

Edited October 19, 2023 by Brian Fantana