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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Just drove past the Consulate General of Israel in Houston, where hundreds are gathering in protest.  The chant: "We don't want two states; we want '48."  Not hard to interpret that Palestinians (not just Hamas, et al) believe Israel is illegitimate and that there should be a single Palestinian state from the river to the sea.....  But, I am sure that is a new belief, forced upon them by years of Israeli oppression.

 

3 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Whose sock is this?

I’ve never posted under any other name on this site or its predecessors. 

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18652

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27 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

Host countries like the United States?

 

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23393

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, F250 said:

I figured so. Over the last few years there hasn't been a lot of variety in political discussions due to the Trump era. This subject seems to have raised some of the political differences that exist with the Republicans that have recently left the GOP and their new political allies. It's no coincidence that a lot of the former Republicans don't sound much different than the current Republicans over in the DT thread.

It also exposes some of the positions that are rooted in evangelical and fundamentalist christian indoctrination. Even after some posters have moved beyond the theology, some of that worldview is hard to shake. Israel is offered a singular and unique dispensation. 

Edited by Anastasis
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Foosters

Foosters 17727

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Posted
7 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

You fucking terrorist apologist piece of shit. Fuck off. 

Oh, I feel real smart and superior now. 

I mean, you're the one who stated that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism, so let's not act like we're above the name calling.

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34422

Posted
Posted

Biden telling Hamas that they “gotta learn how to shoot straight” is totally fucking awesome and makes me want to have more old-ass presidents. 
 

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2023/10/18/press-gaggle-by-president-biden-and-nsc-coordinator-for-strategic-communications-john-kirby-ramstein-air-base-germany/

 

Quote

And, look — and I’m not suggesting that Hamas deliberately did it, either.  It’s that old thing: You’ve got to learn how to shoot straight.  You know, and — and it’s not the first time Hamas has launched something that didn’t function very well.

 

 

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Jatrain

Jatrain 288

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1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Do you think the West would be more or less likely to lean on Israel to let up just a bit if Hamas chilled out with the rockets for say, two years? Conversely, do you think that Israel has more or less of a free hand after what happened on October 7? 

If Hamas was gone tomorrow, what would Gaza look like?

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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Posted
1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

 

So, what is the statute of limitations?  The Palestinians are the only refugees with a perpetual status, who both refuse to, and are refused by, their host countries to make a new life.  What about them and their status is so different than all other refugee populations ever?  Oh that's right, its the Jews....

 

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're right, I forgot that there definitely aren't millions of Palestinians living outside of Israel/Gaza/West Bank, and they definitely have the ability to leave. They're just treading water in the Mediterranean.

 

49 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Host countries like the United States?

 

Oh come on, the the USA is not a "host" country, and the Palestinians living in the USA (and other countries) are not refugees.  I am referring to the Palestinians, who remain refugees, including those in Jordan, Lebanon, and other "host" countries, who desire they remain perpetual refugees.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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48 minutes ago, Foosters said:

I mean, you're the one who stated that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism, so let's not act like we're above the name calling.

I did not remotely state that the only plausible explanation for sympathizing with the Palestinian plight is anti-Semitism.  I detest Netanyahu and Likud.  I am highly critical of Israeli policy.  I am sympathetic to the Palestinians.  But, I recognize that much so called Palestinian sympathy includes a good dose of anti-Semitism, including singling out Israel for disparate attention, grievance, and elimination.  Why, for example, does this conversation never include demand that the stolen land of Jordan be returned to the Palestinians?

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9837

Posted
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3 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

singling out Israel for disparate attention

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel's behavior towards Palestine (or the fact that it uniquely receives $4B from us every year)?

Quote

grievance

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel has aggrieved the people of Palestine?

Quote

elimination

This is conflation. Simply sympathizing with the poor, oppressed people of Gaza means I am an anti-Semite? Or that I advocate for "elimination" of Israel or of Jews? That's some BPD-caliber "all or nothing" thinking.

Far from being "singled out," Israel receives criticism that is proportional to the special treatment it receives.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel's behavior towards Palestine (or the fact that it uniquely receives $4B from us every year)?

Is it because Israel is Jewish, or is it because of Israel has aggrieved the people of Palestine?

This is conflation. Simply sympathizing with the poor, oppressed people of Gaza means I am an anti-Semite? Or that I advocate for "elimination" of Israel or of Jews? That's some BPD-caliber "all or nothing" thinking.

Far from being "singled out," Israel receives criticism that is proportional to the special treatment it receives.

Horseshit.  I explicitly said that I don't suggest Palestinian sympathy is anti-Semitism.  Israel has been singled out for disparate treatment as long as it has existed.  Again, what about Jordan's behavior towards "Palestine?"  They stole far more land than Israel is accused of stealing.  And, they treat the Palestinians like shit.  If the refugees in Jordan began regular terrorist attacks on the King and things he cares about, how do you think he would respond?  But, never a word about Jordan.  The difference must be that we don't care as much about those Palestinians.

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troph

troph 24562

Posted
Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, WhatTheBuck said:

Have you ever read the Old Testament?

They killed and were killed. Yes. I didn’t want to bring religious texts in here I think that discussion is counter productive but it only proves my point (assuming you ignore the god’s chosen people horseshit).

Edited by troph
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chainsaw

chainsaw 9837

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Posted
5 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Horseshit.  I explicitly said that I don't suggest Palestinian sympathy is anti-Semitism.  Israel has been singled out for disparate treatment as long as it has existed.  Again, what about Jordan's behavior towards "Palestine?"  They stole far more land than Israel is accused of stealing.  And, they treat the Palestinians like shit.  If the refugees in Jordan began regular terrorist attacks on the King and things he cares about, how do you think he would respond?  But, never a word about Jordan.  The difference must be that we don't care as much about those Palestinians.

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

Precisely, the world cares (negatively) about Israel more than it actually sympathizes with the Palestinians. 

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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Posted
Just now, chainsaw said:

Nobody would be concerned with Israel if it were to leave Palestinians and its neighbors alone.

Still right on point - there would be no continuing sympathy for the Palestinian refugees living miserable lives in Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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12 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

 what other threads do you post in?  you sure became active in this one, and I've never seen this handle before.

I've got about 525 posts and fewer than 25 on this board in the past week.  It isn't complicated.  Click on my name, and then (at top right) on "see their activity."  Mostly Football and Food & Travel threads.  Peace.

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956 Worldwide

956 Worldwide 34422

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18 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

We send $4B annually to Jordan? Does AJPAC exist? I don't think Jordan has been running an open-air prison, either.

We send a shit-ton of money to Jordan. Until 2022 when Ukraine passed everyone, Jordan was 2nd or 3rd on the list. And they’re getting more. 
 

https://www.newarab.com/news/us-signs-historic-10-billion-aid-package-jordan?amp

 

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33546.pdf

 

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chainsaw

chainsaw 9837

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3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

We send a shit-ton of money to Jordan. Until 2022 when Ukraine passed everyone, Jordan was 2nd or 3rd on the list. And they’re getting more. 
 

https://www.newarab.com/news/us-signs-historic-10-billion-aid-package-jordan?amp

 

https://sgp.fas.org/crs/mideast/RL33546.pdf

 

$10B over 7 years is much less than $4B per year.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 18652

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Tonesky said:

Oh come on, the the USA is not a "host" country, and the Palestinians living in the USA (and other countries) are not refugees.  I am referring to the Palestinians, who remain refugees, including those in Jordan, Lebanon, and other "host" countries, who desire they remain perpetual refugees.

We should invite them here.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

We should invite them here.

You are being glib.  We already have lots of Palestinian immigrants and I am more than OK with more.  In the context of a comprehensive settlement, I would be fine with a much larger number.  And, I expect it will cause Surly hysteria, but in the context of a comprehensive settlement two State settlement, I expect Israel would accept return of a some number of refugees as well.

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6667

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Posted
1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

You are being glib.  We already have lots of Palestinian immigrants and I am more than OK with more.  In the context of a comprehensive settlement, I would be fine with a much larger number.  And, I expect it will cause Surly hysteria, but in the context of a comprehensive settlement two State settlement, I expect Israel would accept return of a some number of refugees as well.

I agree with this.

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Tonesky

Tonesky 917

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3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

amazing what happens when you aren't occupying someone else's territory.

Funny how no one wants to engage on the fact that Jordan occupies Palestinian territory at least as much as Israel does.  Just what superior right does the Hashemite Kingdom have to Palestine?

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Brian Fantana

Brian Fantana 6667

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Posted
1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

Funny how no one wants to engage on the fact that Jordan occupies Palestinian territory at least as much as Israel does.  Just what superior right does the Hashemite Kingdom have to Palestine?

Jordan didn't slaughter a bunch of them, raze their cities and villages, and displace hundreds of thousands of them would be my first guess. Like half their population has Palestinian roots.

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DixonHur

DixonHur 11171

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

What a cringe, debate pervert, bad faith question.

I guess we're back to this old game: Do Palestinians have the right to not be murdered and have their homes stolen in the West Bank?

Bullshit

He said, and I quote

Quote

Nobody would be concerned with Israel if it were to leave Palestinians and its neighbors alone.

Quote

Show me a point in time where Israel hasn't been displacing Palestinians

5 Arab nations attacked Israel the moment it was created.  So he either believes the creation of Israel is invalid because it displaced Palestinians, or he is wrong.  I gave him an out yet he confirmed the former in his next post. 

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WhatTheBuck

WhatTheBuck 28705

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Posted
2 hours ago, troph said:

Dude you know Jewish people claim it at their land of origin. This shit goes back to the founding of the Abrahamic religions - which is as much of the problem as the Brits fetish for drawing lines on maps.

I think you pretty much have to believe that Judeo-Christian mythology is fact in order to argue that the Jews have a right to the land of Palestine as their ancestral home. That land hadn’t been majority Jewish in well over a thousand years. I think it’s reasonable to say that after you haven’t been living somewhere for more than a thousand years, you’ve given up the right to call it your land. If you try to take it back, you shouldn’t be surprised if the people who’ve been calling it their home for centuries don’t take too kindly to being replaced by outsiders, especially when deception is used as a tactic to accomplish that end. Say whatever you want but those people got screwed and have every right to be pissed. There will never be a two state solution because Israel will never offer the Palestinians a fair deal. So there will never be peace.

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Anastasis

Anastasis 23393

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3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jordan didn't slaughter a bunch of them, raze their cities and villages, and displace hundreds of thousands of them would be my first guess. Like half their population has Palestinian roots.

I hate to be disagreeable*, but while all of this is certainly true, Jordan can do a shit load more to help the Palestinians in the WB. And Egypt and Lebanon and others as well.

 

*syke

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