Israel

[Serak The Preparer 3,424]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The only path forward -- dictated by reality -- is to play the ball as it lies TODAY.  To switch metaphors, we show up and play the chess match with the pieces arranged as they are at present, not as we belief the were positioned/should have been justly positioned before.  To grab a third metaphor....you can't unscramble the egg.

In this metaphorical chess match, are vibrating anal beads allowed? Asking for Hamas Israel a friend.

[chainsaw 9,837]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The terror and fear of Israelis has zero weight to you.

You couldn't be more wrong. I want them to be and feel safe, which is exactly why I want their government to stop doing provocative things and to cease the occupation that has fed into the narratives and justifications on which these terror groups thrive. A majority of Palestinians polled are supportive of a two-state solution, with 1967 borders, if it meant peace. That might not fit the theme you've constructed based on stray anecdotes drawn from a protest somebody drove by here in Houston, but the data exists.

Israel and the US need to re-examine the way they have approached the peace process. Historically, the negotiations have been in bad faith and one-sided, with the imposition of unacceptable conditions from the outset seemingly for the purpose of all but guaranteeing that the negotiations would fail.

[chainsaw 9,837]

3 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

make martyrs out of them.

That poses an unacceptable risk to the safety of Jews worldwide. I would listen to the voices of the many Jews who have been protesting the war, who are urging a ceasefire.

[chainsaw 9,837]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Palestine's fuckery is straight-up murder and terrorizing of every Israeli and jew.

Conflating again. Why do you do this?

[David Dennison 18,652]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

And Palestine's fuckery is straight-up murder and terrorizing of every Israeli and jew.

We can do this all day.  It will be about as productive as the last 75 years have been.

And it will continue as long as Israel oppresses Palestinians as a matter of policy. 

[Nivek 16,853]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

How many times are you going to conflate the terrorists (at most 1,000 of whom participated in the attack) and the 2.2 million people who have been the subject of this discussion.

The militants don't work the farms, the grid, water treatment plants, and exist in a vacuum.  They get support from the population.   If the population isn't sick of it, then the militants will continue to get support.  

3 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Israel's fuckery is oppression. That has to stop first.

Again, I posted a little history from before.  The Palestinian's militant wing has acted in the same way with Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon.  Why should Israel stop first when it seems that the Palestinians cannot or refuse to stop themselves.  As a reminder, they killed the King of Jordan, tried to kill another, killed their Prime Minister.   They were supported by Jordan, and yet they tried to overthrow it with Syria's help.   You keep acting like there isn't something wrong with the Palestinians.  There is, they are run by chaos agents from the inside and outside and those chaos agents have the support of the people.   They do not wish to govern.  

[chainsaw 9,837]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I’d point to the Israelis as one particularly relevant subset of worldwide Jews who I’m pretty sure don’t share that sentiment.

Are you sure? How would you know, given that there's been a crackdown and criminalization of dissent? We do know that Netanyahu is incredibly unpopular there.

[David Dennison 18,652]

Just now, Nivek said:

Again, I posted a little history from before.  The Palestinian's militant wing has acted in the same way with Egypt, Jordan, and Lebanon.  Why should Israel stop first when it seems that the Palestinians cannot or refuse to stop themselves.  As a reminder, they killed the King of Jordan, tried to kill another, killed their Prime Minister.   They were supported by Jordan, and yet they tried to overthrow it with Syria's help.   You keep acting like there isn't something wrong with the Palestinians.  There is, they are run by chaos agents from the inside and outside and those chaos agents have the support of the people.   They do not wish to govern.  

Because they are orders of magnitude more powerful than the adversary.

[chainsaw 9,837]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

The militants don't work the farms, the grid, water treatment plants, and exist in a vacuum.  They get support from the population.   If the population isn't sick of it, then the militants will continue to get support. 

You know this how?

[chainsaw 9,837]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

I'm being serious. I don't view Israelis as a pro-genocide monolith. Many of the power-consolidation moves have been incredibly unpopular.

[Nivek 16,853]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Israel and the US need to re-examine the way they have approached the peace process. Historically, the negotiations have been in bad faith and one-sided, with the imposition of unacceptable conditions from the outset seemingly for the purpose of all but guaranteeing that the negotiations would fail.

What was wrong with Clinton's negotiated strategy?   It required that the Palestinian's take responsibility for their own security.  The militants chose not to.  Arafat couldn't or wouldn't stop that.  

[Nivek 16,853]

7 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Because they are orders of magnitude more powerful than the adversary.

Is that supposed to be a serious reply?  

[Nivek 16,853]

7 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You know this how?

Is this a serious reply?

[David Dennison 18,652]

Just now, Nivek said:

Is that supposed to be a serious reply?  

Of course. Israel's power necessitates that it be the bigger man, so to speak. That means ending its policy of oppression. 

[chainsaw 9,837]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Is this a serious reply?

Well I'd like to know how you came to know so much about where Hamas gets support from.

[Nivek 16,853]

33 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

A feel-good story, but it's not a long-term solution.

From 2015 and still they remain in charge of their domain.... 

You just cannot simply admit you are wrong.  Authority isn't always given, sometimes it is taken or decided upon by a small group.  I seem to recall a small group of people founding a whole nation that would change the world.   Not all colonials were revolutionaries.  Most were not, IIRC.   And yet.....   

[956 Worldwide 34,422]

30 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

That poses an unacceptable risk to the safety of Jews worldwide. I would listen to the voices of the many Jews who have been protesting the war, who are urging a ceasefire.

Shot

27 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Conflating again. Why do you do this?

Chaser

”Jews worldwide will suffer and die if the government of Israel doesn’t do the right thing.” 
 

“Why are you conflating Israelis and a Jews?”

Back to fucking back, that’s some solid dissonance.” 

[chainsaw 9,837]

3 minutes ago, Nivek said:

From 2015 and still they remain in charge of their domain.... 

You just cannot simply admit you are wrong.  Authority isn't always given, sometimes it is taken or decided upon by a small group.  I seem to recall a small group of people founding a whole nation that would change the world.   Not all colonials were revolutionaries.  Most were not, IIRC.   And yet.....   

What domain are you talking about? A tiny indigenous mountaintop village of 600? A village where they can't really leave for fear of being killed? That's what Palestinians should do to overthrow Hamas? I'm seriously not following your reasoning here at all. Did the cartels go away because it didn't take this village? What are you trying to say here that's relevant at all to the notion that the people of Gaza should overthrow its defacto government?

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Shot

Chaser

”Jews worldwide will suffer and die if the government of Israel doesn’t do the right thing.” 
 

“Why are you conflating Israelis and a Jews?”

Back to fucking back, that’s some solid dissonance.” 

I'm not calling Jews the aggressor here. It has been said many times that Jews are persecuted worldwide. I am simply agreeing with that proposition.

[Nivek 16,853]

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I'm a proponent of paying substantial reparations to the descendants of slaveholders and displaced indigenous people. As for returning land, I am in favor of it where it is feasible. I haven't looked too closely at the feasibility of returning land to indigenous people, but my understanding is that the feasibility can vary depending on what land we're talking about and other factors. Where returning particular lands to particular people is not feasible, I am in favor of granting different land to them of comparable quality and paying monetary compensation to them to account for the shortcoming.

To me, that is the only morally defensible answer.

Where are you going to magically get the money?  Will my Italian ancestry allow me to escape some of the payment?  Do I get a claim against the United Kingdom from my Irish ancestry then?  Can I get my ancestral lands and title back?  Cause I am good with this exchange, though the people of Ireland might not be so happy with my kingship and demand of showers outdoors with those Irish Spring ladies.  

The only practical answer is to move on.   

[chainsaw 9,837]

Just now, Nivek said:

Where are you going to magically get the money?

Same way anyone else who owes money for any other reason gets the money.

 

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

Will my Italian ancestry allow me to escape some of the payment?

Probably not.

2 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Do I get a claim against the United Kingdom from my Irish ancestry then?  Can I get my ancestral lands and title back? 

Sure, if feasible.

 

[Nivek 16,853]

Just now, chainsaw said:

Same way anyone else who owes money for any other reason gets the money.

 

Probably not.

Sure, if feasible.

 

This is how I know you are not a serious individual.  The idea is absurd and impractical, and yet, you cannot see that.   I am the one with the claim, and yet, even I know it is a fucking joke.  Oh, I am also part Neanderthal according to my DNA.  So I want all that too.  

[chainsaw 9,837]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

This is how I know you are not a serious individual.  The idea is absurd and impractical, and yet, you cannot see that.   I am the one with the claim, and yet, even I know it is a fucking joke.  Oh, I am also part Neanderthal according to my DNA.  So I want all that too.  

Okay well if you're biased against reparations, just say that. That doesn't change the reality that reparations are the only moral option for the sins of displacement and slavery.

[Nivek 16,853]

7 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

How do we find the “indigenous” people who never displaced someone else before them?  Are the Comanche in this scenario rooted to Texas since prehistoric times and never fought a war until the 1830s with American settlers?

hey man, I know you are on my side, but fuck you too.  You homo sapiens have cost me a chance of experiencing Neanderthal pussy with your genocide of my people.     Think about that....  now try not to.... see....   

[henrygandorf 29,174]

this is a pretty crazy stage for a gov. not sure i have seen this. 

[chainsaw 9,837]

Just now, henrygandorf said:

this is a pretty crazy stage for a gov. not sure i have seen this. 

He's got to be on the 2028 shortlist.

[956 Worldwide 34,422]

21 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

What domain are you talking about? A tiny indigenous mountaintop village of 600? A village where they can't really leave for fear of being killed? That's what Palestinians should do to overthrow Hamas? I'm seriously not following your reasoning here at all. Did the cartels go away because it didn't take this village? What are you trying to say here that's relevant at all to the notion that the people of Gaza should overthrow its defacto government?

I'm not calling Jews the aggressor here. It has been said many times that Jews are persecuted worldwide. I am simply agreeing with that proposition.

I am pointing out the “inherent tension” in the constant drumbeat that criticism and anger toward Israel is Different than antisemitism and anger to Jews. Which, fair enough, often it is. 
 

But then you’re also pointing out that angry terrorists worldwide will hold Jews worldwide responsible for Israeli actions— and that Israel has a duty to protect those Jews by making different decisions— and things start to get little muddled. 
 

Basically, it’s bad and inexcusable when Israel’s supporters conflate Jews and Israel.  But natural and expected when terrorists conflate them. 

[Dbeasy 14,963]

15 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Nobody would be concerned with Israel if it were to leave Palestinians and its neighbors alone.

Waaat? This is a ridiculous statement. 

[henrygandorf 29,174]

2 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He shouldn’t be doing this.  “Offering California’s support” - what, do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

i'm curious if it's with a group of governors or state officials.  it's interesting either way.  he's in charge of the state with the world's 5th largest economy and a lot of his biggest donors are jewish, so maybe he feels like getting more involved.

and offering support isn't "conducting foreign policy", i think it's more of a humanitarian thing, and yeah, possibly cash.

[Da Fino 2,735]

2 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I'm a proponent of paying substantial reparations to the descendants of slaveholders and displaced indigenous people. As for returning land, I am in favor of it where it is feasible. I haven't looked too closely at the feasibility of returning land to indigenous people, but my understanding is that the feasibility can vary depending on what land we're talking about and other factors. Where returning particular lands to particular people is not feasible, I am in favor of granting different land to them of comparable quality and paying monetary compensation to them to account for the shortcoming.

To me, that is the only morally defensible answer.

You've got yourself a deal!

[Tonesky 917]

8 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He shouldn’t be doing this.  “Offering California’s support” - what, do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

Gov. Hotwheels seems to think they can. 

[Neonmoon 38,127]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Israel and the US need to re-examine the way they have approached the peace process. Historically, the negotiations have been in bad faith and one-sided, with the imposition of unacceptable conditions from the outset seemingly for the purpose of all but guaranteeing that the negotiations would fail.

What are these unacceptable conditions you speak of?

 

[DixonHur 11,171]

27 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Okay well if you're biased against reparations, just say that. That doesn't change the reality that reparations are the only moral option for the sins of displacement and slavery.

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

[chainsaw 9,837]

20 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 Israel has a duty to protect those Jews by making different decisions— and things start to get little muddled.

I agree it's not a fair position to put a government in. Israel was supposed to be a place for Jews to call home, to feel safe, and to be safe. That's an important project, especially after the Holocaust. And keeping that in mind, it's maybe the biggest overlooked aspect of October 7. The fundamental premise of Israel was punctured in a way it never has been before by the massacres of October 7.

The justifications that have been given for the occupation have almost always been: security. If it isn't even delivering on that, then maybe we should be listening to the anti-war Jewish voices.

[F250 28,680]

32 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

 

[Brisketexan 104,561]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

Of course. Israel's power necessitates that it be the bigger man, so to speak. That means ending its policy of oppression. 

....for zero promise of security.  Don't forget that.  That's important.  "Give the Palestinians a complete free hand, and hope like hell they don't use that free hand to murder our citizens."  That's a big ask.  No sane state or people in the world would ever take you up on it.

38 minutes ago, longhornmatt said:

He shouldn’t be doing this.  “Offering California’s support” - what, do the individual states get to conduct their own foreign policy now?

I mean....

25 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

Gov. Hotwheels seems to think they can. 

....yeah.

11 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

Correct.  It's an insanely unrealistic unicorns shitting rainbows idea, and always has been.  Nevermind the foolish impracticalities of it (e.g., when do you start and stop the clock?  Do members of other Mexican indigenous tribes get reparations from the Mexica/Aztecs, who murdered and enslaved them?  Or are reparations an offer only good against the white Europeans who later showed up and shredded the Aztecs (with, you know, the help of many of those other tribes)?

No, what kills it is its foundational premise: "assume with me that an entire nation state acts against its own interest."  That's not what nation states do.

To be clear, that concept would require me to cede my current home to representatives of the Comanche tribe.  And not just me -- every non-native American Texan landowner would have to cede their land to the tribal inhabitants when "the white man showed up" (again, we'll conveniently ignore any tribal wars/conquest that happened before then).  Nope.  Never gonna happen.  Might as well propose that we create an alternate planet Earth, that has a better chance of happening.  Any realistic proposal has to take into account basic human behavior and standards.  No people is going to act entirely against their own interests.

10 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I agree it's not a fair position to put a government in. Israel was supposed to be a place for Jews to call home, to feel safe, and to be safe. That's an important project, especially after the Holocaust. And keeping that in mind, it's maybe the biggest overlooked aspect of October 7. The fundamental premise of Israel was punctured in a way it never has been before by the massacres of October 7.

The justifications that have been given for the occupation have almost always been: security. If it isn't even delivering on that, then maybe we should be listening to the anti-war Jewish voices.

Maybe we should also read a history book.  In periods when Israel was NOT doing the oppressive shit you presently complain about (and again, I don't disagree with the criticism)......did its Palestinian neighbors grant it security?  Fuck no.

Any realistic eyes see that Israel will NEVER have full security.  Palestine and its allies will always devote material energy to trying to end the Israeli state and murder its citizens.  The only calculus for Israel is "which option makes me LESS secure?"  And the track record says that minding your own business leads to full-scale invasion.  Either way, Israel is making an existential bet on behalf of its citizens. Most any other state would say "yeah, I'll make that bet.  It will be the bet that involves me keeping a gun in my hand."

"All Israel has to do is disregard decades upon decades of Palestinians and their allies pledging to wipe Israel off the map, and act completely against its self interest, and surrender and hand over all land to Palestinians."  Oh.  Who knew it was that easy?  Unconditional surrender.  Why didn't you just say so?

[Nivek 16,853]

21 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

I'll say it, paying reparations is the dumbest idea in this thread. 

I think my claim of Ireland and Neanderthal territory is dumber(er).   The only positive serious reply would have been "good luck with that." 

 

 

Maybe something about my return to my Irish Kingdom could have been cleverly included

 

[Brisketexan 104,561]

1 minute ago, Nivek said:

I think my claim of Ireland and Neanderthal territory is dumber(er).   The only positive serious reply would have been "good luck with that." 

 

 

Maybe something about my return to my Irish Kingdom could have been cleverly included

 

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

[Nivek 16,853]

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

No people is going to act entirely against their own interests.

 

[Beantown Express 2.0 6,554]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

 

[DixonHur 11,171]

11 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I think my claim of Ireland and Neanderthal territory is dumber(er).

Oh great, now YOU'RE wanting to stake a claim to Israel too?

[Beantown Express 2.0 6,554]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Oh great, now YOU'RE wanting to stake a claim to Israel too?

It’s only fair that we kick both the Jews and Palestinians out and give it to Nivek.  I mean his peeps were there first.  

[David Dennison 18,652]

30 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

....for zero promise of security.  Don't forget that.  That's important.  "Give the Palestinians a complete free hand, and hope like hell they don't use that free hand to murder our citizens."  That's a big ask.  No sane state or people in the world would ever take you up on it.

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

[DixonHur 11,171]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

[David Dennison 18,652]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

[Brisketexan 104,561]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

[David Dennison 18,652]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

Ordinary Palestinians should go about their lives. Those who claim to represent Palestinians should use Isreal's good will as an opportunity to better govern their people while moving toward a two state solution. I have no idea if that would actually happen. If it doesn't, I expect the cycle of violence and retribution to continue.

[DixonHur 11,171]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

As I mentioned several pages ago, I agree.

But in practice this hasn't worked.  In 2005 Israel dismantled all their settlements in Gaza.  Spoiler Alert:  Hamas still attacked Israel.

['stache 21,764]

25 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

No one is saying Israel shouldn't be concerned about its security. Israel (with military and economic support from its allies) can take care of itself. 

National defense, however, doesn't mean you get to oppress your neighbors without expecting some unfortunate push back.

 

16 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Honest question, I your mind, what is the solution?  

I ask because you seem to be proposing a 2 state solution whereby Israel goes back to the 1948 borders, but that has been repeatedly rejected by the Palestinians for over 75 years.  So aside from Israel ceasing to exist, what do you propose?

 

13 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Stop treating ordinary Palestinians like Hamas, end the blockade of Gaza, and remove the settlements in the West Bank.

Start there and see what happens. 

 

10 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I like that plan.  Truly, I do.  I think Israel should do each of those things.

In response, what should the Palestinians do?  And...what do you think they'll actually do?  Because in such matters, "what comes next" is important.

I think that plan is a start. I also think the two state borders should be established and respected by Israel even if Palestine doesn't officially agree. Outside those borders, leave everyday Palestinians alone. Stop treating them as prisoners or as subordinate to an occupying force. Focus solely on protecting Israel from terrorism, not Palestinians in general.

The fact is terrorism will exist. It's too late to fix that problem. Once occupied land was taken and given to another group by force, it was inevitable that the inhabitants at the time weren't going to just sit by and not push back. Israel has enormous resources they can put towards preventing terrorism the best they can. Not the best comparison but I see some parallels with guns in the United States. It's too late for gun control to really work and we've just had to accept that mass shootings will be a regular occurrence.

If life were better for everyday Palestinians, there is less likelihood that some will resort to terrorism. I actually think terrorist events would be less in Israel than mass shootings are in the US. But they will occur and its not sustainable to say that even the possibility of terrorism means that everyday Palestinians should be treated as second class people.

Edited October 19, 2023 by 'stache

[David Dennison 18,652]

Just now, DixonHur said:

As I mentioned several pages ago, I agree.

But in practice this hasn't worked.  In 2005 Israel dismantled all their settlements in Gaza.  Spoiler Alert:  Hamas still attacked Israel.

Maybe next time don't collectively punish the entire population. 

 

[DixonHur 11,171]

1 minute ago, David Dennison said:

Maybe next time don't collectively punish the entire population. 

 

Or, maybe "ordinary" Palestinians should work together with Israel to eliminate Hamas.