Israel

[Brisketexan 104560]

5 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How prevalent was this belief among the 700,000 who were displaced?

No idea.  It's a matter of significant disagreement.  Because there have been dueling narratives from the get-go.  What I know is that overall, there were no clean hands.  There was zionist violence and expulsion, there was Palestinian violence and cooperation with attacking Arab states.  Both things are true.

[Poe It Up 126]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How prevalent was this belief among the 700,000 who were displaced?

Based on the polling, roughly 50%. 

[Anastasis 23393]

21 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Being that what we're discussing at present is Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, pre- the Six Day war in 1967.

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

[Brisketexan 104560]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

Sure.  You mean the books rife with dueling narratives?  Or would you recommend that I go to one of the sources that paints the Palestinian and their arab allies as innocent victims in all of this?  Or would you prefer I go to a source that paints them as uniformly bloodthirsty genocidal terrorists who deserved every bit of suffering they got?  I mean, I could read the book about how the Palestinians launched bloody terrorist attack after bloodthirsty terrorist attack against Israeli civilians and jews outside of Israel.  Or I could read the book about how zionist military irregulars murdered and raped Palestinians to drive them out of their villages in 1947-49.  The super fun thing is, both books would be telling true stories.  But neither would be telling the whole story.

I mean, I'm literate.  This isn't the first time I've read anything on this topic (and I'm confident that it won't be the last, as nothing good is going to change in my lifetime).

[David Dennison 18652]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Seems like someone certainly would benefit from opening a history book and learning about the events between 1948-1966 and the systematic oppression and dehumanization of the Palestinians in Israel. 

Terrorism or no terrorism, the way Israel treats ordinary Palestinians has got to stop.

[Anastasis 23393]

So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

[Anastasis 23393]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Sure.  You mean the books rife with dueling narratives?  Or would you recommend that I go to one of the sources that paints the Palestinian and their arab allies as innocent victims in all of this?  Or would you prefer I go to a source that paints them as uniformly bloodthirsty genocidal terrorists who deserved every bit of suffering they got?  I mean, I could read the book about how the Palestinians launched bloody terrorist attack after bloodthirsty terrorist attack against Israeli civilians and jews outside of Israel.  Or I could read the book about how zionist military irregulars murdered and raped Palestinians to drive them out of their villages in 1947-49.  The super fun thing is, both books would be telling true stories.  But neither would be telling the whole story.

I mean, I'm literate.  This isn't the first time I've read anything on this topic (and I'm confident that it won't be the last, as nothing good is going to change in my lifetime).

Uh, you're the one that told another poster "Maybe we should also read a history book". So that seems like a weird fucking rant. If you want a book suggestion from me, I would suggest maybe you consider: https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/154090217X/  

[chainsaw 9837]

5 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

Those were human shields obviously

[Brian Fantana 6667]

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

[chainsaw 9837]

1 minute ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

Imagine the shitshow if the organization or MLB told him he can't wear it. They're spineless cowards.

[chainsaw 9837]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

Who wore it better though?

[Nivek 16852]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

You're Irish.  Nobody is worried about your claims.  We could give the whole kit and caboodle back to you, we'd have it all back before the end of the weekend, and you'd be too drunk to notice.

What, are we not able to stereotype the Irish around here?  I'm sorry, I thought this was America.

I'll have you know that only 4 of my Dad's brothers were/are alcoholics.   So don't sass our good name.  I mean 1 out of 5 is pretty good in baseball....

[Welshy 907]

5 hours ago, Nivek said:

hey man, I know you are on my side, but fuck you too.  You homo sapiens have cost me a chance of experiencing Neanderthal pussy with your genocide of my people.     Think about that....  now try not to.... see....   

Man...the Italians are fucked. They better be prepared to write some checks. What's the bill for carthage? 

[InkaUtexas 25497]

12 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Man...the Italians are fucked. They better be prepared to write some checks. What's the bill for carthage? 

tree fiddy. 

[Nivek 16852]

54 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

The conversation will never get any traction as long as it's painted as "no, see, all Palestinians are murderous antisemitic animals and must be caged" or "the Palestinian people are all innocent victims, and should get back everything they had pre-1948."  If you want to stick with white-hat v black-hat narratives, you'll get ongoing conflict.  Which is what we've been doing.  And what we've gotten.  So, by all means, keep pushing that narrative.  It's been super successful.

Quote

 

Pretty much sums up what's going on here.  When people post legitimate discussion points, some people just scroll past and move on to whatever fits their limited perspective and take offense to what wasn't said.   (Not all Palestinians agree with Hamas! Oh thanks for that genius insight!  I didn't think we needed to include such simplistic and obvious facts, but I guess we should include that some wear shoes as well.)

 

[chainsaw 9837]

1 hour ago, Brisketexan said:

should get back everything they had pre-1948

I haven't seen the case made for why they shouldn't.

[G650 14086]

37 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Man...the Italians are fucked. They better be prepared to write some checks. What's the bill for carthage? 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

4 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ian Kinsler is a Jew. This is stupid.

I'm talking about them allowing this vs. not allowing a pride night because it's too "political". There's nothing wrong with him wearing the jersey.

[TwiceHorn 31264]

12 minutes ago, BeardIP said:

Ian Kinsler is a Jew. This is stupid.

And an actual Israeli citizen.  And manager of Team Israel even this year.

 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

[softlynow 1783]

7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

Some of us? How dare you!

[F250 28680]

39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

Gay people do not play baseball so not the same.

[fattyflattie 4636]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

It wouldn’t have made sense there, either. 

[TwiceHorn 31264]

1 hour ago, Brian Fantana said:

Jesus christ some of you are a fucking beating, man. I should have put that in a different thread.

While I don't agree with it, making an institutional decision not to do pride week is a bit different from telling an individual in an organization they can't wear a jersey.

Yeah they're both "political."  But one may have worse optics than the other, notwithstanding any political bias.

[Anastasis 23393]

Hey look man, Jesus needs his landing strip in Jerusalem, so just deal with it ok? [/dispensationalists]

[atomheartbevo 89409]

1 hour ago, F250 said:

Gay people do not play baseball so not the same.

They did.  At least for one year, back in '29-'30

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gayhe01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gaywi01.shtml

[Beantown Express 2.0 6554]

3 hours ago, chainsaw said:

I haven't seen the case made for why they shouldn't.

Just to make sure I understand your stance.  You believe that Israel should be disbanded, the Jews living there should move out or be forced out and the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…) to create Palestine.  That would be pre 1948, correct?

[DixonHur 11171]

34 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Just to make sure I understand your stance.  You believe that Israel should be disbanded, the Jews living there should move out or be forced out and the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…) to create Palestine.  That would be pre 1948, correct?

Que @Brian Fantana

[linux 1659]

7 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From a purely rational and self-interest perspective, the fact that Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel is all the more reason to destroy them completely and rapidly. You would have to treat an actual existential threat much more seriously and carefully because of the damage they are capable of inflicting on you.

The balance of power has protected Hamas. Israel felt secure and safe, underestimated Hamas’ will and capabilities, and allowed that to cloud their vigilance. It is actually a fairly big humanitarian win that Israel allowed them to exist and govern this long given the asymmetry, very few other nations in a similar situation would tolerate their existence and just invest in Iron Dome. 
 

Hamas is in the in-between of not being strong enough to pose an existential threat but strong enough to kill 1000 plus people on a single day in the most spectacularly violent means imaginable. 

Lets get something clear, Israel funded newborn Hamas, Netanyahu was revealed recently to support the existence of Hamas.

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

 

Basically the fact that Hamas exists today is basically Israel's doing, from the 80s to today, all to thwart the PLO.

Edited October 20, 2023 by linux

[Brian Fantana 6667]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Que @Brian Fantana

I'm sorry, bitch, are you trying to call me out when you conveniently failed to respond to this post?

With that weak of a straw man? Pathetic. Coward.

[Neonmoon 38127]

6 hours ago, linux said:

Lets get something clear, Israel funded newborn Hamas, Netanyahu was revealed recently to support the existence of Hamas.

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

 

Basically the fact that Hamas exists today is basically Israel's doing, from the 80s to today, all to thwart the PLO.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-10-01/ty-article/israel-quietly-lets-in-gaza-workers-in-bid-to-ease-tensions/0000017f-e548-dc7e-adff-f5edf54e0000

They allowed aid to Hamas in exchange for reduced rocket fire. Just like all their efforts. It’s always giving up something for peace. A peace that is never kept by the other party. 

It’s not Israel’s fault Hamas exists. That’s absurd.

It’s also not the US fault Russian invaded Ukraine. Same absurdity 
 

[DDD Dad 14251]

8 hours ago, DixonHur said:

Que @Brian Fantana

 

[chainsaw 9837]

8 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

You believe that Israel should be disbanded,

Not sure what you mean by this

8 hours ago, longhornmatt said:

the Jews living there should move out or be forced out

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

8 hours ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes.

To provide some context, this is what @Brisketexan had said:

14 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

The conversation will never get any traction as long as it's painted as "no, see, all Palestinians are murderous antisemitic animals and must be caged" or "the Palestinian people are all innocent victims, and should get back everything they had pre-1948."  If you want to stick with white-hat v black-hat narratives, you'll get ongoing conflict.  Which is what we've been doing.  And what we've gotten.  So, by all means, keep pushing that narrative.  It's been super successful.

The point being made, along the lines of a classic "both sides" false equivalence, is that the status quo ante would be as bad as caging Palestinians.

It's not hard to make the case that caging Palestinians just because they are Palestinians is unacceptable.

But I don't see why pre-1948 borders can be seriously considered the moral equivalent of placing an entire people in cages. Maybe if you think it means the expulsion of all Jews, but I don't see why it would mean that. I just mean that the apartheid should end and Arabs should have equal rights.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6554]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not sure what you mean by this

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes.

To provide some context, this is what @Brisketexan had said:

The point being made, along the lines of a classic "both sides" false equivalence, is that the status quo ante would be as bad as caging Palestinians.

It's not hard to make the case that caging Palestinians just because they are Palestinians is unacceptable.

But I don't see why pre-1948 borders can be seriously considered the moral equivalent of placing an entire people in cages. Maybe if you think it means the expulsion of all Jews, but I don't see why it would mean that. I just mean that the apartheid should end and Arabs should have equal rights.

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

[956 Worldwide 34422]

Just now, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

[Fud 9545]

14 hours ago, Anastasis said:

So awesome, images and reports of the bombing of the St. Porphyrius church compound in Gaza coming through. This is a place where Palestinian Christians in particular have been seeking refuge. Early reports are that the two story admin building that was housing refugees was flattened. The images and video being shared online are clearly in the church compound, and well, shit looks pretty bad. We'll get to see how this one shakes out. There were reports a week ago or so that were not accurate, so again, will need to let the assessments play out. 

 

[Tonesky 917]

45 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes [the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)].

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that "Palestine" really means everything from the river to the sea.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Tonesky
add " "

[Nivek 16852]

14 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I don't necessarily mind the Israel jersey but the hypocrisy really pisses me off. Just another instance of people not so subtle hinting at which group they consider human.

I don't really know the backstory, but that seems like a bit of a leap to go from not participating in something to = calling others subhuman. 

Go Astros

Edited October 20, 2023 by Nivek

[Nivek 16852]

1 minute ago, Tonesky said:

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that Palestine really means everything from the river to the sea.

Apparently the non-Jews built those synagogues.  

[Tonesky 917]

31 minutes ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

Show me on a map the occupied territories you are referring to please.  I just want to understand your view point of what that means.

There is a reason that you have never seen a single Palestinian representative/negotiator ever present such a map.

29 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

Bingo!  [Except, for the fantasy of Jews living under Palestinian rule.]

[Tonesky 917]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

I don't really know the backstory, but that seems like a bit of a leap to go from not participating in something to = calling others subhuman. 

Go Astros

Right.  All this really amounts to is spineless hypocritical economics.  Pride night in 2023 means angry cultists and lost revenue.  Supporting Israel; not so much.

[chainsaw 9837]

10 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

There is a reason that you have never seen a single Palestinian representative/negotiator ever present such a map.

Bingo!  [Except, for the fantasy of Jews living under Palestinian rule.]

Why are you so convinced that they would try to kill Jews? If that were true wouldn't you see more violence against Jews committed by Palestinian refugees in other countries? Wouldn't the poll numbers of Palestinians also be higher, in response to questions about violence, and lower, in response to disapproval of Hamas?

Why do you dismiss peace as a fantasy?

[David Dennison 18652]

36 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that "Palestine" really means everything from the river to the sea.

How long should we expect the Israeli military to be there?

[Tonesky 917]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes [the Palestinians should be given that entire area (Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, whatever…)].

 

47 minutes ago, Tonesky said:

This is beyond fiction.  Jews have never historically lived in the West Bank or Gaza?

And, it confirms alignment with Palestinians that "Palestine" really means everything from the river to the sea.

 

10 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

How long should we expect the Israeli military to be there?

Evasive non-sequitur. 

But, since you chimed in, want to confirm whether you also believe Jews have no historical presence in the West Bank and Gaza?  Or that "Palestine" refers to everything from the river to the sea?

[956 Worldwide 34422]

WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[David Dennison 18652]

Just now, Tonesky said:

Evasive non-sequitur. 

But, since you chimed in, want to confirm whether you also believe Jews have no historical presence in the West Bank and Gaza?  Or that "Palestine" refers to everything from the river to the sea?

I believe Jews have a historical presence there. I'm just wondering how long we can expect the Israeli military to continue occupying the West Bank.

[chainsaw 9837]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

conflating again.

[Da Fino 2735]

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

WhAt MaKeS yOu tHiNk ThEy’D WaNt To KiLl JeWs?

Imagine how far you have to crawl up your own asshole to ask that fucking question after October 7. Those first two photos are of a pre-school, BTW.

Quoting polling numbers and shit, GTFO. “Only ten perfect of Germans ever joined the NSDAP, what makes you think they can’t live peacefully with Jews in Poland?” 
 

Fuck your disingenuous bullshit. 

You're clearly being dismissive of the 60% that do think jews have a right to exist. Since they are in a position of power, being the majority, they should be adults and demand restraint. 

[Anastasis 23393]

18 minutes ago, Fud said:

 

 

Man, I am sure glad that twitter is here to clear this up and provide pictures of the crater in the church compound and the rubble of the admin/hall building. The katholikon of the church compound thankfully appears to have only superficial damage.

Here is the entrance to the compound, and an after picture. Note the inscription and cross above the entrance and in the rubble. The large crater with that has a tapestry of the nativity sitting in it in some of the online images is directly to the left of this image. 

 

 

 

[Anastasis 23393]

cool, cool. look what they found in the crater.

 

Spoiler