Israel

[956 Worldwide 34428]

8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

conflating again.

What the fuck am I conflating? Did or did not the current governing authority for Palestinians in Gaza plan, organize, and execute the above massacre against Jews (sorry, it’s against Israelis when they are being murdered). 

[chainsaw 9838]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

What the fuck am I conflating? Did or did not the current governing authority for Palestinians in Gaza plan, organize, and execute the above massacre against Jews (sorry, it’s against Israelis when they are being murdered). 

That "governing authority" is not the same thing as the people who live there, who haven't had elections in nearly 20 years and when they did the "governing authority" only won by 29k votes. The people, when polled, did not support ending the ceasefire.

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

1 minute ago, chainsaw said:

That "governing authority" is not the same thing as the people who live there, who haven't had elections in nearly 20 years and when they did the "governing authority" only won by 29k votes. The people, when polled, did not support ending the ceasefire.

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

NoT aLl GeRmAnS 

PS: Hamas received a greater percentage of votes than the NDSAP ever did (44 vs 33). I’m on board with approaching the problem set similarly to the ways the Allies looked at Germany. 

[chainsaw 9838]

12 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’m on board with approaching the problem set similarly to the ways the Allies looked at Germany. 

Conflation. Just say you're prejudiced against Arabs, then. Own it.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

3 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Conflation. Just say you're prejudiced against Arabs, then. Own it.

EABOD.  The point is that no matter who we want to be in charge in Gaza, Hamas actually is and in no other circumstances do we say “you can’t fight a war against the entity trying to destroy you because not everyone they govern agrees with them. If you just surrender there will be peace.” 
 

Also, just yesterday you said that Israel is responsible for the safety of Jews worldwide (and thus to blame for all the violence and hatred directed against them) that Israel should listen to the non-Israeli Good Jews you agree with. So fuck off with your conflation high horse. 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

“Ukraine should also surrender because not all Russians agree with Putin and if they just stop fighting there will be peace in Donetsk.” 
 

Fuck off with this shit. 

[chainsaw 9838]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

EABOD.  The point is that no matter who we want to be in charge in Gaza, Hamas actually is and in no other circumstances do we say “you can’t fight a war against the entity trying to destroy you because not everyone they govern agrees with them. If you just surrender there will be peace.” 
 

Also, just yesterday you said that Israel is responsible for the safety of Jews worldwide (and thus to blame for all the violence and hatred directed against them) that Israel should listen to the non-Israeli Good Jews you agree with. So fuck off with your conflation high horse. 

There's a difference between "surrender" and ending an illegal occupation.

I did not say Israel is "to blame" but I did say that, for better or for worse, the government's decisions affect more people than its own citizens.

I've been consistent about how Jews (both in Israel and worldwide) are not a monolith, and there's a large and growing number of anti-war, anti-occupation Jews that we should be listening to. Their concerns are rooted not only in morality but also security. Listening to them means I'm victim-blaming? I don't think so.

Edited October 20, 2023 by chainsaw

[Brisketexan 104590]

35 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Stop conflating, and stop assuming that hostilities would continue at the same intensity or frequency once the occupation (the reason behind the hostilities) has ended.

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

[chainsaw 9838]

6 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Ukraine should also surrender because not all Russians agree with Putin and if they just stop fighting there will be peace in Donetsk.” 
 

Fuck off with this shit. 

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

[Brian Fantana 6667]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

He means that all of Israel should become Palestine and Jews would either live under Palestinian rule or leave, he’s just using a lot more words to say it. 

 

8 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Once you understand that by this sentence, chainsaw is saying "once the jewish israeli state in the levant has ended."  He is too much of a coward to actually say it, but that's exactly what he's referring to.

Turn the levant into the Palestinian state.  Any jews that want to live there, go for it.  But they won't be living in a jewish Israeli state.  There won't be one.

And he thinks this pitch has a greater than 0% chance of working.

You two should be ashamed of yourselves for shamelessly straw manning like this. I honestly never thought I'd see Brisket argue in such bad faith until this situation unfolded.

[Brisketexan 104590]

8 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

Then state your position, and how it differs from what I posted.

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Re: My above post

At times, of course, not always. Both of you have made good points as well, and have given me things to think about.

Fucking Brisket posted too fast

Edited October 20, 2023 by Brian Fantana

[Brisketexan 104590]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

 

You two should be ashamed of yourselves for shamelessly straw manning like this. I honestly never thought I'd see Brisket argue in such bad faith until this situation unfolded.

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

The guy came back and literally said “what makes you think there’d be violence once Palestinians were given all of the territory governed by Israel.” 
 

How are we supposed to read that? 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

13 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

Russia literally says that Ukraine was committing crimes against humanity in Novorossiya vis a vis ethnic Russians and that’s why they invaded. 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

I'm not gonna speak for him but that seems like the least charitable way to read into that.

[wildcat09 29234]

Brisket, you know as well as anyone that there are plenty of ways to protect Jewish Israelis and their political power even in a unified state with Palestinians. This "they'll outfuck and outreproduce the Jews and then kill them all" is just replacement theory shit and is as likely to happen there as it is to happen here.

[chainsaw 9838]

18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Then state your position, and how it differs from what I posted.

My position is in the immediate term there should be a ceasefire, there should be a restoration of basic necessities to the people of Gaza, and there should be peace talks mediated by the UN. Hostages should be returned immediately, whose return I understand has been on the table for days.

Long term, the solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders, with no apartheid or other bullshit. Dignity for everyone involved. I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror groups or their current/former members from holding any kind of office (so we don't have a repeat of 2006).

[956 Worldwide 34428]

22 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Yeah.....I gotta tell ya, and I'm being dead-honest here - I'm not trying to straw man anything.  I truly can't see any alternate reading of what he said.  But if y'all want to put crystal clarity on your position, that would preclude any straw manning, intentional or accidental.

Legit do not understand how you can say “let’s return to the pre-1948 borders” and it mean anything else. That’s when the Jewish state in the Levant was founded. 

[chainsaw 9838]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Legit do not understand how you can say “let’s return to the pre-1948 borders” and it mean anything else. That’s when the Jewish state in the Levant was founded. 

and that's as bad or worse than caging people on the basis of their race?

[Welshy 907]

You say "...solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders" and follow with "I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror...holding office."

So Palestine can no longer support that, but Israel could? This twisting of tenses is probably disingenuous as it implies Israel should pursue your proposal while acknowledging Palestine no longer would. Even if it isn't, it's actually correct: Gaza would not accept a peace fire, because Hamas is in charge of Gaza. Terror organizations don't voluntarily go away. They grow (hezbollah) or are exterminated. They killed and raped and tortured human beings as a recruiting event and pledge drive. That's it. 

 

There is no solution possible with Hamas. If you don't know that, you should.

[Beantown Express 2.0 6554]

52 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

My position is in the immediate term there should be a ceasefire, there should be a restoration of basic necessities to the people of Gaza, and there should be peace talks mediated by the UN. Hostages should be returned immediately, whose return I understand has been on the table for days.

Long term, the solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders, with no apartheid or other bullshit. Dignity for everyone involved. I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror groups or their current/former members from holding any kind of office (so we don't have a repeat of 2006).

I asked a simple question based on your pre 1948 comment. You were unable to speak like an adult and answer it in a simple sentence and adding a simple map of what you believe.

[chainsaw 9838]

1 minute ago, Welshy said:

You say "...solution most Palestinians would have supported (before the attacks and retaliation) was 1967 borders" and follow with "I think Israel could support that as well, if Palestine were to put measures in place that forbid terror...holding office."

So Palestine can no longer support that, but Israel could? This twisting of tenses is probably disingenuous as it implies Israel should pursue your proposal while acknowledging Palestine no longer would. Even if it isn't, it's actually correct: Gaza would not accept a peace fire, because Hamas is in charge of Gaza. Terror organizations don't voluntarily go away. They grow (hezbollah) or are exterminated. They killed and raped and tortured human beings as a recruiting event and pledge drive. That's it. 

 

There is no solution possible with Hamas. If you don't know that, you should.

I'm only acknowledging the limits of the poll data I was citing. I hope they still support it but I don't know.

[chainsaw 9838]

1 minute ago, Beantown Express 2.0 said:

answer it in a simple sentence

Yeah this is a topic that lends itself to simple solutions.

[statsman 5423]

4 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Not sure what you mean by this

Not what I'm saying. Jews have always lived in the area, but not in the occupied territories.

The occupied territories have always been Palestine, so in a sense yes.

To provide some context, this is what @Brisketexan had said:

The point being made, along the lines of a classic "both sides" false equivalence, is that the status quo ante would be as bad as caging Palestinians.

It's not hard to make the case that caging Palestinians just because they are Palestinians is unacceptable.

But I don't see why pre-1948 borders can be seriously considered the moral equivalent of placing an entire people in cages. Maybe if you think it means the expulsion of all Jews, but I don't see why it would mean that. I just mean that the apartheid should end and Arabs should have equal rights.

Israel has always had a problem- Jews are a liberal people, and the idea of a Jewish state is illiberal. 
 
Everywhere else in the ME, you have Muslim states. A Muslim state is also an illiberal idea, but the other people are illiberal, so you don’t have that tension. 
 
If Palestinians were allowed full access into Israel, and allowed to claim residency, in short order it would become a Muslim state. The Jews would have to flee, submit or die. 
 
I’m sorry you need this explained to you. 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

and that's as bad or worse than caging people on the basis of their race?

First, that’s a non sequitur. Second, I have no idea how to even respond because the way it’s framed it impossible to know what you’re referring to. 

[chainsaw 9838]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

First, that’s a non sequitur. Second, I have no idea how to even respond because the way it’s framed it impossible to know what you’re referring to. 

If you'd been paying attention you'd know it's not a non-sequitur.

[chainsaw 9838]

2 minutes ago, statsman said:

The Jews would have to flee, submit or die.

Sorry, but when you say "die" that is wild speculation. Was that happening in this territory before 1948?

[Brisketexan 104590]

58 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Brisket, you know as well as anyone that there are plenty of ways to protect Jewish Israelis and their political power even in a unified state with Palestinians. This "they'll outfuck and outreproduce the Jews and then kill them all" is just replacement theory shit and is as likely to happen there as it is to happen here.

With all due respect....get real.

Every rational adult knows that the only way that there is an actual safe and secure jewish homeland is for Israel to be a jewish state.  Don't give me any bullshit of "you're just attributing badness to the Palestinians, maybe they WOULDN'T do what they've been clamoring to do since 1948 when they have political control of the entire levant."  Come.  The fuck.  ON.  Turn the levant into a majority Palestinian state, and there will be no Israel, not even a conceptual one.  It will just be one more country in the world where a) jews are in the minority b) among a population that may turn on them at any moment (and in this case, a population that actually has deep resentment of them right here, right now).  

We also know that apartheid states are no bueno.

If we accept that both of things are true, THEN we have to come up with a solution.  There is no IDEAL solution to be found.  Just a realistic solution.

I think it should be a two-state solution.  If you opt for chainsaw's approach, then you oppose a two-state solution.  Maybe that's the foundational question that should be asked of you, chainsaw, and the other posters in that corner:  as an ultimate outcome, do you support:

1) a two-state solution, with both an Israeli and Palestinian state,

2) a levant that is only a Palestinian state, and the jews there can remain for as long as they feel comfortable, or

3) a levant that is only an Israeli state, with the Palestinians either entirely pushed out or kept in walled-off enclaves?

While there's plenty of permutations of each, those are the three core options.  Pick one.  Me?  I'm a two-state guy.  Because I'm a goddamned grownup and I know that option 2 or 3 ends up as a holocaust of one group of humans or another.

[Brisketexan 104590]

6 minutes ago, statsman said:

Israel has always had a problem- Jews are a liberal people, and the idea of a Jewish state is illiberal. 
 
Everywhere else in the ME, you have Muslim states. A Muslim state is also an illiberal idea, but the other people are illiberal, so you don’t have that tension. 
 
If Palestinians were allowed full access into Israel, and allowed to claim residency, in short order it would become a Muslim state. The Jews would have to flee, submit or die. 
 
I’m sorry you need this explained to you. 

And this.  The idea of a Palestinian state that is also a safe haven for jews and judaism in the long run is an absurdist fantasy.  

[chainsaw 9838]

Just now, Brisketexan said:

And this.  The idea of a Palestinian state that is also a safe haven for jews and judaism in the long run is an absurdist fantasy.  

You call it absurd, and the basis inevitably comes down to stereotyping.

[statsman 5423]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You call it absurd, and the basis inevitably comes down to stereotyping.

It comes down to critical reasoning and paying attention to what people say and do. 

[Brisketexan 104590]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

You call it absurd, and the basis inevitably comes down to stereotyping.

Stereotyping?  How about just reading the fucking room?  And also, why in the dark blue FUCK would you EVER expect any people to willingly put their long-term fate in the hands of a people who at the very LEAST, has had a sizable plurality of that people wanting to wipe you off the earth for the past 3/4 of a century?  

You ask Israeli jews to do what no state has ever done or ever would do.  And you ask them to do that on a wing and a prayer, and a hope that maybe, all of that hatred and violence (with which the jews have 2,000+ years of DEEP experience with, everywhere they've been) will just.....go away.

Goddamn.  You're the one selling unicorn farts here, not me.  I'm not stereotyping shit to say that "making a minority - that is one of the most hated and persecuted minorities in the history of a the world - subject to the control of a majority that has a plurality of its members presently wanting to destroy that minority is quite likely to turn out very badly for the minority."  It's fucking common sense.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Brisketexan

[chainsaw 9838]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Stereotyping?  How about just reading the fucking room?  And also, why in the dark blue FUCK would you EVER expect any people to willingly put their long-term fate in the hands of a people who at the very LEAST, has had a sizable plurality of that people wanting to wipe you off the earth for the past 3/4 of a century?  

You ask Israeli jews to do what no state has ever done or ever would do.  And you ask them to do that on a wing and a prayer, and a hope that maybe, all of that hatred and violence (with which the jews have 2,000+ years of DEEP experience with, everywhere they've been) will just.....go away.

Goddamn.  You're the one selling unicorn farts here, not me.  I'm not stereotyping shit to say that "making a minority - that is one of the most hated and persecuted minorities in the history of a the world - subject to the control of a majority that has a plurality of its members presently wanting to destroy that minority is quite likely to turn out very badly for the minority."  It's fucking common sense.

If I'm not mistaken, you likened the situation the region, before 1948, to the caging of Palestinians. That was you, right?

I don't think it was quite that bad. Given how bad things are now, I might even say things are worse now than they were before 1948.

If you're unwilling to consider the possibility that Arabs are just like us and want the same things you and I want, and they aren't some bloodthirsty horde of religious zealots, then I could perhaps understand why you feel the way you do. You asked for my proposed solution, and I provided it (1967 borders with conditions for both sides). The discussion about pre-1948 was based on me asking someone to make the case for why pre-1948 is on par with the caging of Palestinians. I don't believe those two things are on par with one another.

[DDD Dad 14251]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

LMAO dude Ukraine has never displaced Russians from ancestral lands. For what it's worth, I have some sympathy for the clueless conscripts, who are overwhelmingly drawn for non-ethnically Russian areas, that have been sent to the front lines but my sympathy ends when they participate in war crimes against Ukrainian civilians.

I don't know what kind of popular support the war in Russia has among Russian citizens, but I don't think anyone would be justified in committing crimes against humanity in Moscow as a form of collective punishment for the decisions of Russia's government.

That's not my position. I was only questioning why you believe it's on par with caging Palestinians. Is that really a fair comparison to make?

Forgive my ignorance but you and others keep talking about “caging Palestinians” (presumably en masse). Where are these cages?

[chainsaw 9838]

3 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Forgive my ignorance but you and others keep talking about “caging Palestinians” (presumably en masse). Where are these cages?

Go back a few pages

[Brisketexan 104590]

9 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

If you're unwilling to consider the possibility that Arabs are just like us and want the same things you and I want, and they aren't some bloodthirsty horde of religious zealots, then I could perhaps understand why you feel the way you do.

I don't have to believe that Arabs as a whole are a "bloodthirsty horde of religious zealots" to think that a single Palestinian state would be hideous disaster for jews.  Again, I just have to read the room.

Today, right now, a material plurality of Palestinians wants to exterminate Israel and jews.  That's a real thing, that exists right now, in the very place we're talking about.  Turning your fate over to a group of which even 10% wants to exterminate you is the dumbest idea I've ever heard (and I've watched Greg Davis call plays).

Second, arab states do NOT want the same things you and I want.  We want some semblance of a liberal democracy, with robust protection for all citizens including minority groups (and the irony of the fact that Israel isn't pulling that off is not lost on me.  I'll suggest that in a region of illiberal, ethnically/religiously homogenous states, that's the only model that can work as a practical matter).  Look around you.  That is not the thing in the Arab world.  That is not the thing in middle eastern islamic states.  It just isn't.  And maybe that's okay for the residents if they are all members of that majority (although plenty of Syrians and Iranians, as just a couple of recent examples, would disagree with that).  But seriously.  No fucking way is any rational person buying that a Palestinian state would be anything other than another regional islamist state, operating under a similar ethos and track record as others....but actually even worse, because nobody hates the Israelis more than the Palestinians.

Jesus.  Your disconnect from reality makes this conversation pointless.  You want a solution for a world that doesn't exist.  Have fun in your room dreaming about that hypothetical world.  The rest of us will be out here living in the actual real, messy world that exists.

Edited October 20, 2023 by Brisketexan

[statsman 5423]

6 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Forgive my ignorance but you and others keep talking about “caging Palestinians” (presumably en masse). Where are these cages?

Where? In your underwear!

(sorry, I’ve been waiting to use that one)

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/17c9igd/israel_has_a_right_to_defend_itself_by/

[Tonesky 917]

52 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Legit do not understand how you can say “let’s return to the pre-1948 borders” and it mean anything else. That’s when the Jewish state in the Levant was founded. 

 

40 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

and that's as bad or worse than caging people on the basis of their race?

Just admit it, one state solution, in which Jews get to live there in peace (or at all) only if the Palestinians allow them to do so. 

[chainsaw 9838]

12 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Second, arab states do NOT want the same things you and I want.

There it is.

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

https://old.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/178t46j/god_bless_this_man/

[Smax 3800]

22 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Forgive my ignorance but you and others keep talking about “caging Palestinians” (presumably en masse). Where are these cages?

Down on the Texas Mexico border

[txhorns 2408]

42 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I'm only acknowledging the limits of the poll data I was citing. I hope they still support it but I don't know.

I would caution against using that poll as a data point to support either side.  That poll is likely very inaccurate.  I highly doubt the Palestinians polled were willing to openly support the killing of Israelis in a poll for a foreign entity.  I also highly doubt that many were willing to openly oppose Hamas knowing that it could have repercussions to them and their families.

[chainsaw 9838]

15 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You want a solution for a world that doesn't exist.  Have fun in your room dreaming about that hypothetical world.  The rest of us will be out here living in the actual real, messy world that exists.

It's ironic, in a sense, that you pass off your speculative vision of a Palestinian state as "the actual real" world, as if you would know better than the large number of vocal anti-war, anti-occupation Jews, or as if your speculative vision is more competent evidence than the track record of Palestinian refugees who have fled to other countries and have led exemplary, law-abiding, peaceful lives, or as if your speculative vision is more authoritative than the best available polling data from Palestine which said that a majority of Palestinians would accept the 1967 borders and an even larger majority wanted Hamas to stop using anti-Jew rhetoric, and an even larger majority opposed an end to the ceasefire.

Who made you the arbiter of what is "the actual real" world, anyway?

[chainsaw 9838]

Just now, txhorns said:

I would caution against using that poll as a data point to support either side.  That poll is likely very inaccurate.  I highly doubt the Palestinians polled were willing to openly support the killing of Israelis in a poll for a foreign entity.  I also highly doubt that many were willing to openly oppose Hamas knowing that it could have repercussions to them and their families.

That's a fair point, although if there is apprehension it would be one-sided and probably not in a way that downplays the support Hamas has.

[Smax 3800]

6 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

There it is.

 

The biggest let down gotcha since Geraldo and Capones vaults 

 

[Nivek 16856]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

“Ukraine should also surrender because not all Russians agree with Putin and if they just stop fighting there will be peace in Donetsk.” 
 

Fuck off with this shit. 

Elon?

[MC Fresh Breath 4074]

 

[Brisketexan 104590]

9 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

The biggest let down gotcha since Geraldo and Capones vaults 

 

Seriously.....it's a gotcha for me to take into account my observation that.....arab states and particularly arab islamist states are.....not liberal democracies that are interested in protecting the rights of the minority, particularly jews?

I'm not saying that arabs are inherently bloodthirsty subhumans, or anything remotely like that.  I am observing a very real cultural difference and political difference tied to that cultural difference that has manifested itself repeatedly in the middle east.  I mean....a primarily jewish state is likely to have very flew places where one can find tasty bacon.  Businesses there are more likely to be closed on Saturday (as opposed to a primarily christian state having more businesses closed on Sunday, in some cases, by law).  Culture is politics.  Politics is culture.

It's not a controversial observation to note that it's presently not a good thing to be a jew in a predominantly arab islamist state.  This is....a hot take, that makes me anti-arab?  Really?