Israel

[Tonesky 917]

4 hours ago, chainsaw said:

Why are you so convinced that they would try to kill Jews? If that were true wouldn't you see more violence against Jews committed by Palestinian refugees in other countries? Wouldn't the poll numbers of Palestinians also be higher, in response to questions about violence, and lower, in response to disapproval of Hamas?

Why do you dismiss peace as a fantasy?

Well, let's see, the Serbs and Croats have been at it for quite awhile, but only on the dirt that both claim as theirs.  There are no Serbian and Croat gangs warring in Chicago.  Same for Indian and Pakistani immigrants in Jersey.  How about Hutu and Tutsi refugees in the diaspora?  The argument that, because Palestinians are not attacking Jews in Dallas, or Paris (oops, bad example), or wherever the fuck they are making a life instead of pining for 1948, is evidence that they want to kumbaya with the Jews in Jerusalem, is fucking absurd.

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

An idyllic, single state solution where everyone gets along is a great idea to kick around in theory and hope for, but I think @Brisketexan and I both agree that a two-state solution is the only realistic option for peace, at least in the short term. Even that would likely require significant changes in the power balance to work properly for everyone. I only need to look to the West Bank to see how a two-state solution with the current power imbalance would work out for Palestinians, in my opinion. On the flip side, Israelis would need assurances for their own safety, of course. And a government actually interested in what's best for Israelis.

Hamas, of course, needs to be destroyed. I have posited before in the thread that the most effective (read: least human casualties, probably) way to do this is to erode their support with diplomacy and empathy toward Palestinians as a whole. Terrorist organizations are notoriously difficult or impossible to defeat militarily, as even destroying their leadership or killing off a significant number of them usually only results in something as bad or worse replacing them. The best way to get rid of them is to change the variables that cause them to emerge in the first place/continue to gain support from X% of the population. I think the IRA is a good example of this point. I realize I am greatly simplifying in the interest of brevity, but the lion's share of the violence of the Troubles was ended through diplomatic means. (Note, this is not a comparison between the IRA and Hamas, please don't waste everyone's time by trying to throw that in my face).

Like I said, that's not an easy or quick solution and would likely require significant outside pressure (from the US, specifically) in order for the ball to even begin rolling on that one. We don't have the political will in America to even consider such a route.

I really don't know of a way to avoid catastrophe, and it sucks. I hate all of this, and I hate how angry makes me and how stupid it makes all of us.

[DDD Dad 14,251]

46 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Go back a few pages

Too many clicks.

[DixonHur 11,193]

12 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

I'm sorry, bitch, are you trying to call me out when you conveniently failed to respond to this post?

With that weak of a straw man? Pathetic. Coward.

I didn't respond because there was nothing to respond to.  I've already agreed multiple times that Israel isn't should stop being dicks.  

But how is Israel's policy of settlements in the West Bank relevant to Hamas slaughtering Israelis near Gaza?  You know those are 2 different areas, right?

 

[Brisketexan 104,588]

4 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

An idyllic, single state solution where everyone gets along is a great idea to kick around in theory and hope for, but I think @Brisketexan and I both agree that a two-state solution is the only realistic option for peace, at least in the short term. Even that would likely require significant changes in the power balance to work properly for everyone. I only need to look to the West Bank to see how a two-state solution with the current power imbalance would work out for Palestinians, in my opinion. On the flip side, Israelis would need assurances for their own safety, of course. And a government actually interested in what's best for Israelis.

Hamas, of course, needs to be destroyed. I have posited before in the thread that the most effective (read: least human casualties, probably) way to do this is to erode their support with diplomacy and empathy toward Palestinians as a whole. Terrorist organizations are notoriously difficult or impossible to defeat militarily, as even destroying their leadership or killing off a significant number of them usually only results in something as bad or worse replacing them. The best way to get rid of them is to change the variables that cause them to emerge in the first place/continue to gain support from X% of the population. I think the IRA is a good example of this point. I realize I am greatly simplifying in the interest of brevity, but the lion's share of the violence of the Troubles was ended through diplomatic means. (Note, this is not a comparison between the IRA and Hamas, please don't waste everyone's time by trying to throw that in my face).

Like I said, that's not an easy or quick solution and would likely require significant outside pressure (from the US, specifically) in order for the ball to even begin rolling on that one. We don't have the political will in America to even consider such a route.

I really don't know of a way to avoid catastrophe, and it sucks. I hate all of this, and I hate how angry makes me and how stupid it makes all of us.

Thanks for this.  You and I are much closer to being on the same page than you might think.

[chainsaw 9,838]

7 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

An idyllic, single state solution where everyone gets along is a great idea to kick around in theory and hope for, but I think @Brisketexan and I both agree that a two-state solution is the only realistic option for peace, at least in the short term. Even that would likely require significant changes in the power balance to work properly for everyone. I only need to look to the West Bank to see how a two-state solution with the current power imbalance would work out for Palestinians, in my opinion. On the flip side, Israelis would need assurances for their own safety, of course. And a government actually interested in what's best for Israelis.

Hamas, of course, needs to be destroyed. I have posited before in the thread that the most effective (read: least human casualties, probably) way to do this is to erode their support with diplomacy and empathy toward Palestinians as a whole. Terrorist organizations are notoriously difficult or impossible to defeat militarily, as even destroying their leadership or killing off a significant number of them usually only results in something as bad or worse replacing them. The best way to get rid of them is to change the variables that cause them to emerge in the first place/continue to gain support from X% of the population. I think the IRA is a good example of this point. I realize I am greatly simplifying in the interest of brevity, but the lion's share of the violence of the Troubles was ended through diplomatic means. (Note, this is not a comparison between the IRA and Hamas, please don't waste everyone's time by trying to throw that in my face).

Like I said, that's not an easy or quick solution and would likely require significant outside pressure (from the US, specifically) in order for the ball to even begin rolling on that one. We don't have the political will in America to even consider such a route.

I really don't know of a way to avoid catastrophe, and it sucks. I hate all of this, and I hate how angry makes me and how stupid it makes all of us.

Great post. Like I've been saying, most Palestinians were already on board with a 1967 borders-based two state solution, and I don't think it's out of reach. Is it ideal? Not in my opinion, but it would beat the status quo by a lot. The playbook for neutering insurgent groups is exactly what you said. That requires Israel to make the first move, and to quit being the villains Hamas wants them to be.

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Quote

 

Palestinian Red Crescent says Israel orders hospital evacuation
The Palestinian Red Crescent says that Israeli forces have issued an evacuation order to Al-Quds hospital in Gaza.

The hospital is currently home to over 400 patients and 12,000 displaced civilians, according to the Red Crescent.

In a post on X, the humanitarian organisation called on the "international community to act urgently, averting another catastrophe like Al-Ahli Hospital" - in reference to the explosion at the Baptist hospital for which the Palestinian blame Israel, but Israelis presented evidence which it said showed was caused by a rocket fired from inside Gaza.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-middle-east-67165505

[Nivek 16,856]

38 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Palestine/comments/178t46j/god_bless_this_man/

In my experience, when I hear someone say Zionism or some derivative of the term, I know some bigoted shit is about to come out.   I grew up in South Florida.  I don't think I ever heard a Jewish person use that term once.  But Neo-Nazi's sure love it.   Palestinians sure love it.  Just saying.....

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

6 minutes ago, Nivek said:

In my experience, when I hear someone say Zionism or some derivative of the term, I know some bigoted shit is about to come out.   I grew up in South Florida.  I don't think I ever heard a Jewish person use that term once.  But Neo-Nazi's sure love it.   Palestinians sure love it.  Just saying.....

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

22 minutes ago, Nivek said:

In my experience, when I hear someone say Zionism or some derivative of the term, I know some bigoted shit is about to come out.   I grew up in South Florida.  I don't think I ever heard a Jewish person use that term once.  But Neo-Nazi's sure love it.   Palestinians sure love it.  Just saying.....

 

i do hope you listened to the entire thing.  it is possible to be anti-zionist/against the Israeli Apartheid State, and not be a bigot.  Many Jews hold the same beliefs.

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[hobbes2702 12,804]

3 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

NoT aLl GeRmAnS 

PS: Hamas received a greater percentage of votes than the NDSAP ever did (44 vs 33). I’m on board with approaching the problem set similarly to the ways the Allies looked at Germany. 
 

Fuck off

[Neonmoon 38,127]

33 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

most Palestinians were already on board with a 1967 borders-based two state solution

Is this based on the previously referenced poll?

[chainsaw 9,838]

5 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Is this based on the previously referenced poll?

do you have better data?

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

https://www.artists4ceasefire.org/

 

[956 Worldwide 34,428]

There has been a lot of discussion about how the West Bank experience proves that abandoning terrorism was a mistake and Gaza had good reason to for Hamas as a better alternative:

 

This is important context because as shitty as things are in how Israel treats West Bank, it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security. 
 

Diplomacy gets tossed around like it’s an option on the drop-down menu, but there needs to be certain conditions met for it to be an option.  The pressing issues for West Bank— stopping illegal settlements, policing settler violence against Palestinians, logistics of control of Jerusalem, expanded political and civil rights of Palestinians— are issues where diplomacy can be deployed. You have parties (Israel and the PA) that have in the past made concessions, you have specific things to talk about, there is a desired end state that can be seen.  These problems aren’t intractable and there are similar problems elsewhere that got chalked up to “ethnic hate” that proved soluble. 
 

You cannot sprinkle some diplomacy on the Hamas problem. It is not an insurgency, it’s an apocalyptic group with a genocidal charter, with outside backers, that has installed itself as the authority in Gaza. There is not a party to do diplomacy with and the issues at play are not ones where either side can make concessions without surrendering its own core interests. Something kinetic is always going to be needed. 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

fast forward to 5 minutes in.
 

 

[Nivek 16,856]

24 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

i do hope you listened to the entire thing.  it is possible to be anti-zionist/against the Israeli Apartheid State, and not be a bigot.  Many Jews hold the same beliefs.

 

There wasn't anything substantive in there.  Just a rant.  Nothing I haven't heard before.   No one ever said Israel's hands are clean, yet some people act like they are teaching us.  If you want to hash out every little offense, the find someone else.  I don't care.  Each side has blood on their hands and been bloodied.  That one side is better at killing than the other doesn't mean they should stop.  Dennison's silly statement to that effect was disabused earlier with an example of what that would look like in action.   Chainsaw is living in lala land.   His contributions would hold merit on Fantasy Island.   The social proof bullshit doesn't work on me.  It is one of Cialdini's principles I am largely immune to.   

Look at it from a macro scale.  Between the two groups, one would settle for peace.  The other seems like they only settle for chaos.   And don't start with that monolith bullshit.  Hamas is the government even if they like to pretend they are not or if anyone else on here likes to pretend otherwise.  They represent the Gazans.  

Everytime there is a chance for some peace agreement between Israel or someone else, suddenly Palestinians get to killing.  They killed the King of Jordan at a mosque.  They caused chaos in Lebanon, got Syria to invade Jordan.  Jordan defended them, took them in, and those assholes launched attacks from the refugee camps in Jordan against Israel and invited reprisals.   They wanted to overthrow the son of the King they killed, and they killed the Prime Minister of Jordan.  Why? because they wanted to stop the war with Israel.  Some fucking guests they were.   They know they are a lawless group with militants only interested in sowing discord.  There was a peace agreement and a path, and the Palestinians fucked it up.  Until they police their own, they will be on the receiving end of asskickings and bombings, and settlements and larger and larger buffer zones.   It is not just Israelis bulldozing their homes and lands, it is also the Egyptians (which no one seems to give a flying fuck about either for some reason).    Ask yourself why would they feel the need to create these buffer zones?   

Why do the pro-Palestinians types continue to ignore the chaos they have created in other nations?  Why do they continue to allow themselves to be used as pawns?  Why do they keep playing the stupid games with stupid prizes attached?   They are not going to win.  What you, Chainsaw, and Dennison seem to suggest, is the old appeasement strategy of Chamberlain just repackaged and rebottled.   So, tell me I am wrong.  Tell me the facts I presented are incorrect.  But argue legitimately.

 

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

7 minutes ago, Nivek said:

There wasn't anything substantive in there.  Just a rant.  Nothing I haven't heard before. 

 

I'll kind of do the same with your rant.  But I won't falsely imply bigotry.  Well, not yet.

Edit:

Quote

If you want to hash out every little offense, the find someone else.  I don't care.

 

That's kind of it in a nutshell, isn't it?  You don't care because it is easier to "both sides" this thing. I'll lump you in wit h Brisket and 956 and move on. Lolz at an apartheid state committing genocide being little offenses though.

Edited October 20, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath

[Beantown Express 2.0 6,554]

14 minutes ago, Nivek said:

There wasn't anything substantive in there.  Just a rant.  Nothing I haven't heard before.   No one ever said Israel's hands are clean, yet some people act like they are teaching us.  If you want to hash out every little offense, the find someone else.  I don't care.  Each side has blood on their hands and been bloodied.  That one side is better at killing than the other doesn't mean they should stop.  Dennison's silly statement to that effect was disabused earlier with an example of what that would look like in action.   Chainsaw is living in lala land.   His contributions would hold merit on Fantasy Island.   The social proof bullshit doesn't work on me.  It is one of Cialdini's principles I am largely immune to.   

Look at it from a macro scale.  Between the two groups, one would settle for peace.  The other seems like they only settle for chaos.   And don't start with that monolith bullshit.  Hamas is the government even if they like to pretend they are not or if anyone else on here likes to pretend otherwise.  They represent the Gazans.  

Everytime there is a chance for some peace agreement between Israel or someone else, suddenly Palestinians get to killing.  They killed the King of Jordan at a mosque.  They caused chaos in Lebanon, got Syria to invade Jordan.  Jordan defended them, took them in, and those assholes launched attacks from the refugee camps in Jordan against Israel and invited reprisals.   They wanted to overthrow the son of the King they killed, and they killed the Prime Minister of Jordan.  Why? because they wanted to stop the war with Israel.  Some fucking guests they were.   They know they are a lawless group with militants only interested in sowing discord.  There was a peace agreement and a path, and the Palestinians fucked it up.  Until they police their own, they will be on the receiving end of asskickings and bombings, and settlements and larger and larger buffer zones.   It is not just Israelis bulldozing their homes and lands, it is also the Egyptians (which no one seems to give a flying fuck about either for some reason).    Ask yourself why would they feel the need to create these buffer zones?   

Why do the pro-Palestinians types continue to ignore the chaos they have created in other nations?  Why do they continue to allow themselves to be used as pawns?  Why do they keep playing the stupid games with stupid prizes attached?   They are not going to win.  What you, Chainsaw, and Dennison seem to suggest, is the old appeasement strategy of Chamberlain just repackaged and rebottled.   So, tell me I am wrong.  Tell me the facts I presented are incorrect.  But argue legitimately.

 

See, there was this poll done in Gaza.  That explains it all and how the world should be.  You haven’t been paying attention apparently. 

[chainsaw 9,838]

 

[SL Xpress 7,505]

On 10/19/2023 at 4:14 PM, BeardIP said:

Too be fair in criticizing Israel, it strikes me that Israel is trying to subjugate a people in a modern era where you can’t do that anymore. It’s like  if Dick Butkus tried to play Mike linebacker today. Israel needs to understand you can’t choke a nation out until there is no will or fight left— the world is too flat and cameras too 4k.

It's happening regularly, even in this day and age. 

The only time it's not possible is when there are strong militarized advocates for the weaker group*

Edit - that are willing to actually do something to help defend the weaker group by force, either through direct intervention or the supply of a gratuitous amount of weapons and support. 

The idea it can't happen any more sounds naive to me. Which sounds like an attack on your position, for which I apologize. You don't sound naive. Just this statement. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by SL Xpress

[chainsaw 9,838]

34 minutes ago, Nivek said:

hey are a lawless group with militants only interested in sowing discord

Tell us how you really feel about Arabs

[Tonesky 917]

56 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

fast forward to 5 minutes in.

 

21 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact). 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Tonesky

[chainsaw 9,838]

Just now, Tonesky said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video) of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact. 

It was an interesting thread. I don't understand why the US is opposed to an independent investigation.

[Welshy 907]

14 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

Tell us how you really feel about Arabs

Are all Arabs Palestinian?  Interesting.

[956 Worldwide 34,428]

20 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

 

LOL at people reading all this stuff about the “IOF” and which direction the projectile came from when CNN broadcast the goddam video showing a Gaza-origin rocket malfunctioning and going back the other way. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2023/10/18/gaza-rocket-hospital-blast-vpx.cnn

Accidental confirmation of the thing they don’t want to confirm. 

[956 Worldwide 34,428]

4 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

It was an interesting thread. I don't understand why the US is opposed to an independent investigation.

Where did youl hear that the U.S. is opposed to an independent investigation? Which U.S. official or agency made that statement? 

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

50 minutes ago, Nivek said:

Look at it from a macro scale.  Between the two groups, one would settle for peace.  The other seems like they only settle for chaos.   And don't start with that monolith bullshit.  Hamas is the government even if they like to pretend they are not or if anyone else on here likes to pretend otherwise.  They represent the Gazans. 

I don't know why you guys keep hammering this as if everyone isn't aware and says Hamas has to go. I mean, I know why I just want to hear you say it.

[chainsaw 9,838]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Where did youl hear that the U.S. is opposed to an independent investigation? Which U.S. official or agency made that statement? 

The US State Department, Matthew Miller

https://www.state.gov/briefings/department-press-briefing-october-19-2023/

Quote

QUESTION: It’s precisely because of that that in the region, as you know, there is mistrust over the Israelis saying, and actually of the U.S. position as well, because there is previous administrations that took us to war in Iraq on a lie that was defended on a very high level, including behind this podium. That’s why people are cynical when you hear something. We might not know the truth, but would the United States support an international investigation? That’s —

MR MILLER: I do not believe that is appropriate at this time. The Israeli Government has released a great deal of evidence to support their contention that it – this was a misfire rocket attack from inside Gaza that unfortunately landed on this hospital and killed it looks like hundreds of civilians. The U.S. Government is conducting its own assessment.

 

[linux 1,659]

12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2019-10-01/ty-article/israel-quietly-lets-in-gaza-workers-in-bid-to-ease-tensions/0000017f-e548-dc7e-adff-f5edf54e0000

They allowed aid to Hamas in exchange for reduced rocket fire. Just like all their efforts. It’s always giving up something for peace. A peace that is never kept by the other party. 

It’s not Israel’s fault Hamas exists. That’s absurd.

It’s also not the US fault Russian invaded Ukraine. Same absurdity 
 

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

Edited October 21, 2023 by linux

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

2 hours ago, Tonesky said:

 

Both the audio and crater analysis concern the direction of the missile immediately before impact, all of which is actually consistent with the US, Israeli, and other analysis (including Palestinian video of the missile changing direction mid-flight prior to impact). 

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

Good ol Onion:

Quote

 

Biden Urges Americans Not To Let Dangerous Online Rhetoric Humanize Palestinians

WASHINGTON—Upon returning from his brief diplomatic trip to the Middle East, President Joe Biden urged the nation Thursday not to let dangerous online rhetoric humanize Palestinians. “As the war between Israel and Hamas rages on, I urge my fellow Americans to remain vigilant, and not fall for any false propaganda that claims people living in Gaza and the West Bank are worthy of human life,” said the 46th president, adding that since the war had begun, U.S. intelligence had discovered countless bad actors flooding the internet with reports that many Palestinians were mothers, fathers, and children who were not terrorists and did not deserve to be trapped without food, water, or fuel while being carpet-bombed into submission. “If you hear a Palestinian being described with terminology like ‘son,’ ‘daughter,’ or ‘in desperate need of medical attention,’ then you should be aware that what you are reading has been specifically designed to stoke empathy.” At press time, Biden added that Americans should also avoid dangerous propaganda that wrongly asserts the billions of dollars in military aid the United States has sent to Israel could be spent on things like healthcare, education, or alleviating poverty at home.

 

https://www.theonion.com/most-common-sti-in-every-state-1850937846

[Welshy 907]

15 minutes ago, linux said:

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

*Macabre.

Your false equivalency is noted: "If Israel wanted peace, they would have 'X'' is sophomoric. Be better.

You're a dummy. 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Welshy

[Welshy 907]

11 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

There is not.

[linux 1,659]

9 minutes ago, Welshy said:

*Macabre.

Your false equivalency is noted: "If Israel wanted peace, they would have 'X'' is sophomoric. Be better.

You're a dummy. 

 

Notice how none of you address their actions and statements.

To you funding Hamas is no big deal and always "a move to peace" basically Trumpian logic, when they literally say that they fund Hamas to maintain perpetual war.

[Welshy 907]

16 minutes ago, linux said:

Notice how none of you address their actions and statements.

To you funding Hamas is no big deal and always "a move to peace" basically Trumpian logic, when they literally say that they fund Hamas to maintain perpetual war.

Rape. Murder. Massacre. Abduction. 

There is no conversation after that. As Hamas leadership, in Qatar, well knows.  

*and I only addressed your comments. You're not doing Gaza or Palestine any favors. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Welshy

[chainsaw 9,838]

45 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

I find it highly suspect that nobody seems interested in fully investigating what happened. I've been pretty consistent about "wait and see" before making any firm conclusions. The early video suggested it was Israel, the next day photos of the destruction suggested it might not be, but there's been nothing conclusive of yet.

Also, it looks like some hostages have been released. Great news.

[linux 1,659]

16 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Rape. Murder. Massacre. Abduction. 

There is no conversation after that. As Hamas leadership, in Qatar, well knows.  

*and I only addressed your comments. You're not doing Gaza or Palestine any favors. 

Again you keep skirting the confessions from fucking Benjamin Netanyahu.

[chainsaw 9,838]

41 minutes ago, Welshy said:

There is not.

So you believe they have the capability to listen in to a random conversation that happened to discuss the very same blast, but they didn't have the capability to have known about the October 7 attack in advance?

[Welshy 907]

5 minutes ago, chainsaw said:

I find it highly suspect that nobody seems interested in fully investigating what happened. I've been pretty consistent about "wait and see" before making any firm conclusions . The early video suggested it was Israel, the next day photos of the destruction suggested it might not be, but there's been nothing conclusive of yet.

Also, it looks like some hostages have been released. Great news.

No one is interested because it doesn't matter. It's a false narrative. It was designed to be a false narrative. Raping, murdering, massacring and kidnapping make all these sophistic posts meaningless. 

[chainsaw 9,838]

1 minute ago, Welshy said:

No one is interested because it doesn't matter. It's a false narrative. It was designed to be a false narrative. Raping, murdering, massacring and kidnapping make all these sophistic posts meaningless. 

I think attempted war crimes matter and we should hold whoever did them responsible.

[Welshy 907]

9 minutes ago, linux said:

Again you keep skirting the confessions from fucking Benjamin Netanyahu.

I'm skirting your ineptitude. Be better. Stop sucking. 

[Welshy 907]

Just now, chainsaw said:

I think attempted war crimes matter and we should hold whoever did them responsible.

Bless your heart.

[linux 1,659]

43 minutes ago, Welshy said:

I'm skirting your ineptitude. Be better. Stop sucking. 

This is pretty damn lame, anyhow I posted evidence, you post pearl clutching, those that follow reason agree with me, those that are emotional agree with you.

[Brian Fantana 6,667]

God damn enough with the socks

[MC Fresh Breath 4,074]

It has been interesting to see that the  DT denizens are pretty comfortable in this thread.  Seems the CR and the DT majorities aren't overall all that different when it comes down to matters like this.  

Edited October 21, 2023 by MC Fresh Breath
adios mofos

[Welshy 907]

22 minutes ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

It has been interesting to see that the  DT denizens are pretty comfortable in this thread.  Seems the CR and the DT majorities aren't overall all that different when it comes down to matters like this.  

Did you think it was?

39 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

God damn enough with the socks

I'm not a sock. A shoe at worst. 

[Neonmoon 38,127]

10 hours ago, linux said:

Well maybe they should not have funded Hamas in the 80s, aka the minute they were founded.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/

Israel does not care for peace, otherwise they would have moved back to the Green line and be done with it, they want to keep stealing West Bank/Jerusalem territory and hence Hamas is a useful pawn in doing this, prop up Hamas by giving them money and they weaken the PLO in the West Bank making annexations easier.

It is simple Game Theory, only maccabre game theory because they placed settlement annexation as a higher priority over state security, and then Oct 7 happened, the minute they go back to thinking they can contain Hamas is the minute they will give them money again.

These are Bibi's words not mine

“’Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas,’ he told a meeting of his Likud party’s Knesset members in March 2019. ‘This is part of our strategy—to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.’”

First off, no one agrees with Bibi in this thread. He’s a piece of shit.

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

Israel doesn’t want peace? Another laughable accusation not backed by facts. They withdrew from Gaza, after conquering it, from a war they didn’t start, to keep the peace. They allowed the PLO to return from exile, the same PLO that was launching terrorist attacks from Lebanon, to keep the peace. 
 

Also, read the entire article you posted. The words do not support your position even thought the hot take headline might 
 

Quote

The Palestinian cause was for decades led by the PLO, which Israel regarded as a terrorist outfit and sought to crush until the 1990s, when the PLO dropped its vow to destroy the Jewish state. The PLO's Palestinian rival, Hamas, led by Islamist militants, refused to recognize Israel and vowed to continue "resistance." Hamas now controls Gaza, a crowded, impoverished sliver of land on the Mediterranean from which Israel pulled out troops and settlers in 2005.

When Israel first encountered Islamists in Gaza in the 1970s and '80s, they seemed focused on studying the Quran, not on confrontation with Israel. The Israeli government officially recognized a precursor to Hamas called Mujama Al-Islamiya, registering the group as a charity. It allowed Mujama members to set up an Islamic university and build mosques, clubs and schools. Crucially, Israel often stood aside when the Islamists and their secular left-wing Palestinian rivals battled, sometimes violently, for influence in both Gaza and the West Bank.

When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake," says David Hacham, who worked in Gaza in the late 1980s and early '90s as an Arab-affairs expert in the Israeli military. "But at the time nobody thought about the possible results."

Israeli officials who served in Gaza disagree on how much their own actions may have contributed to the rise of Hamas. They blame the group's recent ascent on outsiders, primarily Iran. This view is shared by the Israeli government. "Hamas in Gaza was built by Iran as a foundation for power, and is backed through funding, through training and through the provision of advanced weapons," Mr. Olmert said last Saturday. Hamas has denied receiving military assistance from Iran.

Arieh Spitzen, the former head of the Israeli military's Department of Palestinian Affairs, says that even if Israel had tried to stop the Islamists sooner, he doubts it could have done much to curb political Islam, a movement that was spreading across the Muslim world. He says attempts to stop it are akin to trying to change the internal rhythms of nature: "It is like saying: 'I will kill all the mosquitoes.' But then you get even worse insects that will kill you...You break the balance. You kill Hamas you might get al Qaeda."

When it became clear in the early 1990s that Gaza's Islamists had mutated from a religious group into a fighting force aimed at Israel -- particularly after they turned to suicide bombings in 1994 -- Israel cracked down with ferocious force. But each military assault only increased Hamas's appeal to ordinary Palestinians. The group ultimately trounced secular rivals, notably Fatah, in a 2006 election supported by Israel's main ally, the U.S.

So Big Bad Israel let a peaceful Muslim organization set up Mosques and schools. Should they have cracked down upon them? Wouldn’t that have caused outrage? The precursor to Hamas opposed the secular terrorist organization PLO. Oh after years and year of radicalization and Iran stirring shit up. They morphed in a terrorist organization. So Israel was like shit, now we have to stop them top. 

Buy yes, it’s Israel’s fault for not killing them while they were building schools for children 

 

[GW Hayduke 1,952]

1 hour ago, Neonmoon said:

First off, no one agrees with Bibi in this thread. He’s a piece of shit.

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

Israel doesn’t want peace? Another laughable accusation not backed by facts. They withdrew from Gaza, after conquering it, from a war they didn’t start, to keep the peace. They allowed the PLO to return from exile, the same PLO that was launching terrorist attacks from Lebanon, to keep the peace. 
 

Also, read the entire article you posted. The words do not support your position even thought the hot take headline might 
 

So Big Bad Israel let a peaceful Muslim organization set up Mosques and schools. Should they have cracked down upon them? Wouldn’t that have caused outrage? The precursor to Hamas opposed the secular terrorist organization PLO. Oh after years and year of radicalization and Iran stirring shit up. They morphed in a terrorist organization. So Israel was like shit, now we have to stop them top. 

Buy yes, it’s Israel’s fault for not killing them while they were building schools for children 

 

Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 

To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

[Serak The Preparer 3,424]

15 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There has been a lot of discussion about how the West Bank experience proves that abandoning terrorism was a mistake and Gaza had good reason to for Hamas as a better alternative:

 

This is important context because as shitty as things are in how Israel treats West Bank, it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security. 
 

Diplomacy gets tossed around like it’s an option on the drop-down menu, but there needs to be certain conditions met for it to be an option.  The pressing issues for West Bank— stopping illegal settlements, policing settler violence against Palestinians, logistics of control of Jerusalem, expanded political and civil rights of Palestinians— are issues where diplomacy can be deployed. You have parties (Israel and the PA) that have in the past made concessions, you have specific things to talk about, there is a desired end state that can be seen.  These problems aren’t intractable and there are similar problems elsewhere that got chalked up to “ethnic hate” that proved soluble. 
 

You cannot sprinkle some diplomacy on the Hamas problem. It is not an insurgency, it’s an apocalyptic group with a genocidal charter, with outside backers, that has installed itself as the authority in Gaza. There is not a party to do diplomacy with and the issues at play are not ones where either side can make concessions without surrendering its own core interests. Something kinetic is always going to be needed. 

I like The Economist but unless I am missing something, this seems like really shoddy analysis. I don't think anyone would be surprised that the economy is better in West Bank than in Gaza but I am not sure how confidently anyone can then state that a) this is true specifically for Palestinians or b) that this means life is better for Palestinians in West Bank.

I haven't posted much in this thread because I know enough to know I don't know shit about fuck, but at least per Wikipedia the Israeli population in West Bank has grown by 4.6% CAGR 2000-2018 (the latest date available), more than double the GDP growth cited by The Economist. I suspect that the increasing Israeli population isn't solely responsible for the GDP per person growth but also seems like something that can't be ignored. Even if GDP growth were true for Palestinians in West Bank, given that Israelis have suffered no consequence for literally killing Palestinians and seizing the settlements, I wouldn't be ready to argue that a better economy means life is better in West Bank.

None of this is meant to justify anything that has happened, just to say I am surprised by this lazy journalism and the conclusion from @956 Worldwide that "it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security".