Israel

[berlinerbaer 670]

1 hour ago, GW Hayduke said:

Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 

To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

Yep. The far right is the far right, whether in Israel, the USA, or 1930s Europe.

They stir up shit because it's how they stay in power.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

1 hour ago, Serak The Preparer said:

I like The Economist but unless I am missing something, this seems like really shoddy analysis. I don't think anyone would be surprised that the economy is better in West Bank than in Gaza but I am not sure how confidently anyone can then state that a) this is true specifically for Palestinians or b) that this means life is better for Palestinians in West Bank.

I haven't posted much in this thread because I know enough to know I don't know shit about fuck, but at least per Wikipedia the Israeli population in West Bank has grown by 4.6% CAGR 2000-2018 (the latest date available), more than double the GDP growth cited by The Economist. I suspect that the increasing Israeli population isn't solely responsible for the GDP per person growth but also seems like something that can't be ignored. Even if GDP growth were true for Palestinians in West Bank, given that Israelis have suffered no consequence for literally killing Palestinians and seizing the settlements, I wouldn't be ready to argue that a better economy means life is better in West Bank.

None of this is meant to justify anything that has happened, just to say I am surprised by this lazy journalism and the conclusion from @956 Worldwide that "it is undeniable that it’s better to be a Palestinian there than in Gaza— whether that’s economics or security".
 

 

 

The data is out there to back it up.  Since 2008, there have been over 5000 Palestinian fatalities in Gaza and just over 1000 in the West Bank (not counting 2023).  Major hostilities have broken out multiple times in Gaza and none in the West Bank.  This includes settler related violence. On the security front, it’s not even close. This is segregated between Palestinian/Israeli. 
 

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

On the economy, besides GDP growth, there is the persistent gap in unemployment, 45% in Gaza and 13% in the West Bank.  Poverty rates are 13 percent in West Bank and 53 percent in Gaza.  This cannot be explained away by the presence of settlers.  And it’s entirely logical because the Palestinian economy is intertwined with Israel’s and Palestinians in Gaza basically cannot participate because of Hamas. 
 

In West Bank, the poverty rate, unemployment rate, and violent death rate is many, many times lower. You can condemn the settlers and settler violence while recognizing that overall economy and security is far better in the West Bank. 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

4 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

The conspiracy theory that Israel is responsible for Hamas is laughable. It’s pure gaslighting. It’s Israel’s fault Hamas keeps killing them. Okay

This is such a weird, reductionist take. No one is saying Israel is responsible for Hamas. It is very arguable that some of their (and not just Israel's of course) actions in the last 75 years led to Hamas gaining support in Gaza. This is how just about any terrorist organization arises/gains power.

I feel like what people are referring to is literally Netanyahu's policies with regard to propping up Hamas in order to keep the boot on Gaza's neck. It's not a fucking conspiracy theory and people like you and 956 have repeatedly insinuated that anyone who brings stuff like this up is engaging in an anti-semitic conspiracy theory:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697902572267

35 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

In West Bank, the poverty rate, unemployment rate, and violent death rate is many, many times lower. You can condemn the settlers and settler violence while recognizing that overall economy and security is far better in the West Bank. 

What's a little ethnic cleansing as long as the trains run on time?

[Brisketexan 104590]

Now do the Likud party.  Bibi and the far right factions in Israel are the ones who have undermined peace and empower hamas. Without spooky browns to stir up fear and provide political power, far right elements in Israel would be very weak, and left wing elements would be in power, the settlements would stop, and peace would become an option. 
 
To get to peace, we would need to remove the far right elements from both Palestine and Israel.  Hamas needs Likud.  Likud needs Hamas.

Yep. The far right is the far right, whether in Israel, the USA, or 1930s Europe.
They stir up shit because it's how they stay in power.

Bingo.
I mean, shit…where would the GQP and Trump be without 1) the “existential threat of the brown horde!” that 2) they damn sure never want to solve, and that their leading donors support (by hiring the hell outta said illegal browns)? It’s a standard play: “only we can protect you from the threat of (thing that we make sure remains a threat)!”

[956 Worldwide 34428]

8 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

This is such a weird, reductionist take. No one is saying Israel is responsible for Hamas. It is very arguable that some of their (and not just Israel's of course) actions in the last 75 years led to Hamas gaining support in Gaza. This is how just about any terrorist organization arises/gains power.

I feel like what people are referring to is literally Netanyahu's policies with regard to propping up Hamas in order to keep the boot on Gaza's neck. It's not a fucking conspiracy theory and people like you and 956 have repeatedly insinuated that anyone who brings stuff like this up is engaging in an anti-semitic conspiracy theory:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article/.premium/netanyahu-needed-a-strong-hamas/0000018b-1e9f-d47b-a7fb-bfdfd8f30000?v=1697902572267

What's a little ethnic cleansing as long as the trains run on time?

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Quote

Thus, amid this bid to impair Abbas, Hamas was upgraded from a mere terror group to an organization with which Israel held indirect negotiations via Egypt, and one that was allowed to receive infusions of cash from abroad.

Quote

Hamas was also included in discussions about increasing the number of work permits Israel granted to Gazan laborers, which kept money flowing into Gaza, meaning food for families and the ability to purchase basic products.

Quote

Toward the end of Netanyahu’s fifth government in 2021, approximately 2,000-3,000 work permits were issued to Gazans. This number climbed to 5,000 and, during the Bennett-Lapid government, rose sharply to 10,000.

Since Netanyahu returned to power in January 2023, the number of work permits has soared to nearly 20,000.

Quote

Additionally, since 2014, Netanyahu-led governments have practically turned a blind eye to the incendiary balloons and rocket fire from Gaza.

Quote

Meanwhile, Israel has allowed suitcases holding millions in Qatari cash to enter Gaza through its crossings since 2018, in order to maintain its fragile ceasefire with the Hamas rulers of the Strip

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

15 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

I have never called for diplomacy with Hamas. Hamas' existence is antithetical to peace between Palestinians and Israelis. My personal criticism would be these actions are taken by Netanyahu's government in order to deliberately facilitate Hamas' continued existence as defacto regional warlords instead of working towards true Palestinian statehood.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

15 hours ago, MC Fresh Breath said:

What's your take on the allgedly* fabricated Hamas conversation?  There's enough to cast doubt.  There's also the head of the hospital stating Israel warned them to evacuate.  None of  this proves anything of course.  But there's doubt.  

The take is that the entire report is a shit -show riddled with terrible errors and contradictions and sloppiness, so why believe that discrete part? 

 

 

On the hospital thing, I’m reminded so much of the MH 370 shoot down, where the Russians cycled through endless theories from plausible to implausible while the actual explanation remained static.  Thus far I have seen the following  theories from Palestinian aligned or friendly sources:

1. A JDAM MK-80 series bomb destroyed the hospital and killed 500 people. 

2. A JDAM MK-80 in “airburst mode” landed and that didn’t destroy the hospital (casualty estimates go away here, as soon as the daylight photos appear)

3. An Israeli drone fired a Hellfire or Spike anti-personnel missile 

4. An Israeli artillery shell

Versus one static explanation from Western intelligence and the IDF:

1. Most likely a Gaza-origin rocket misfire. 
 

The comms on one side are super similar to Kremlin-style comms (no surprise) and “there’s doubt” is the entire point. 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

I have never called for diplomacy with Hamas. Hamas' existence is antithetical to peace between Palestinians and Israelis. My personal criticism would be these actions are taken by Netanyahu's government in order to deliberately facilitate Hamas' continued existence as defacto regional warlords instead of working towards true Palestinian statehood.

It seems we’re closer than you think. Are you arguing Israel should work toward real reconciliation with the PA while strangling Hamas through a full economic and financial blockade and a kinetic response to the rocket attacks they regularly launch? 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

18 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

It seems we’re closer than you think. Are you arguing Israel should work toward real reconciliation with the PA while strangling Hamas through a full economic and financial blockade and a kinetic response to the rocket attacks they regularly launch? 

Look man, we're good, and I hope you understand I'm not trying to be rude when I say this, but I've made my position on this clear, several times in this thread. I'm not going to type it all out for you again, you're welcome to go back and look for yourself.

[linux 1659]

51 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

From the article you cited— which of these things that Netanyahu did to prop up Hamas do you object to? Be very specific:

Again, be very specific because I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. It seems like Netanyahu did a lot of the things you and chainsaw say Israel should do in Gaza:

1. Hold negotiations though Egypt (diplomacy)

2. Increase work permits and let more people out of the “Open Air Prison” to provide for families 

3. Not respond tit-for-tat to rocket attacks.

4. Allow in Qatari cash (note-most of this pays the salaries of local government workers to keep service open) to enter in exchange for maintaining the ceasefire. 
 

Am I wrong here? Hasn’t this been exactly what you’ve been calling for? That article isn’t making the argument you think. 

This is all fine and good, the problem is the intent and that intent was annexing the West Bank.
 

They don't get a cookie for looking for peace in Gaza while they clearly intend to leverage that peace to violate the West Bank. In the end they got the blowback the usual blowback fascists create.

 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/

 
 

Quote

Charred remains and a CT scan of the remains show a parent and child who were bound together and burned alive by Hamas terrorists on Oct. 7. Two spinal columns—one of an adult and one of a child—can be seen in the scan. The pair were likely embracing as they burned

Quote

“The proportion of bodies we’ve received who are charred is high,” Kugel explained. “Many have gunshot wounds in their hands, showing they put their hands up to their faces in defense. Many were burned alive in their homes. … We know they were burned alive because there is soot in their trachea, their throats—meaning they were still breathing when set on fire.”

The single mercy, Kugel said—if there is one to be found—is that the burned victims likely died from carbon dioxide and soot inhalation before the fire killed them.

Kugel also explained that the age range of the victims spans from 3 months to 80 or 90 years old. Many bodies, including those of babies, are without heads.

Asked if they were decapitated, Kugel answered yes. Although he admits that, given the circumstances, it’s difficult to ascertain whether they were decapitated before or after death, as well as how they were beheaded, “whether cut off by knife or blown off by RPG,” he explained.

Quote

Fighting back tears, Israeli forensic pathologist Dr. Hagar Mizrahi explained that “as you know, the Jewish people must bury their dead as soon as possible.” But as of this writing, nearly two weeks have passed since the massacre, and some 350 bodies remain unidentified. “So, the people here at Abu Kabir are doing their best to help and identify the most severe cases that arrive.”

The “blowback.” 

 

 

[David Dennison 18655]

 

[Poe It Up 126]

Again, posting that half of Palestinians polled want Israel eliminated isn’t the best argument. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

 

Quote

If Israel waits around for Gazans to get rid of Hamas before making an effort at peace, they will be waiting forever. Of course, that suits the country’s far right just fine. Netanyahu and his allies have done a poor job concealing their tacit support for Hamas — they reason that as long as Gaza is under the control of a terrorist organization, there can be no serious talk of a Palestinian state. Supporters of Israel often say that no country could be expected to tolerate a terror group hell-bent on its destruction, operating right on its borders. The outrageous truth is that Israel, under a series of increasingly right-wing governments, has been doing exactly that for nearly two decades. Netanyahu’s cynical policy of allowing Hamas to operate while keeping Gaza under siege and periodically “mowing the grass” with bombing campaigns to contain Palestinian militias’ ability to launch attacks has been a great disservice to both Israel and the Palestinians.

If the war leads to both Hamas and Netanyahu’s right-wing coalition losing popular legitimacy and exiting the scene, it would be a silver lining to a very dark cloud, since neither Israelis nor Palestinians deserve the mediocre leadership they’ve been saddled with. But at least the Israelis have some power to change that if they want to. The people of Gaza do not.

 

[hobbes2702 12804]

2 hours ago, David Dennison said:

 

Well that can’t be right. I was told that Palestinians are just like Nazi sympathizers in Germany on this thread.

Edited October 22, 2023 by hobbes2702

[Neonmoon 38127]

44 minutes ago, hobbes2702 said:

Well that can’t be right. I was told that Palestinians are just like Nazi sympathizers in Germany on this thread.

Please show your work 

[RomaVicta 29781]

I've largely disengaged from this thread, so forgive me if I'm misreading things.

I see repetition of the Hamas atrocities or added details about them. This is newsworthy, but is it relevant to the fate of civilians in GAZA? Is the idea that should the right combination of ghoulish cruelty shown by the (seems to me) universally condemned Hamas attack will lead to a, "Well, there it is. That's really bad. Kill them all," moment?

I also don't object to the newsworthiness of other theories regarding the explosion near the Gaza hospital. In fact, those firmly of the belief that the Israelis are not culpable should be pleased with each theory that is later debunked. It strengthens their case. I also see this discussion as irrelelevant to the fate of the civilians in Gaza.

I have no idea what the solution is, nor do I think my lack of solution is relevant to the fate of civilians in Gaza. Why should they pay for lack of imagination on my own and others' parts? Why should they pay for the intransigence of various politcal and state entities?

I will take the stand that I don't want the US backing either side militarily. The plea that Israel must survive sounds kind of absurd when they have a conventional military poised to do whatever they want to Gaza. The question of right to exist does not concern Israel in this moment. It's an old tune that is no longer applicable no matter how moving its melody.

We shouldn't be aiding either Israel or Hamas in this conflict. We've likely sacrificed our key value as a detached broker in the conflict. I would support humanitarion aid for non combatants wherever they are. I would abandon the idea of sending a fucking carrier group to that coast as a show of force against mighty Gaza. 

We play this wrong. We stick with cheap theater for the excitable crowd back home. I'm an American and look to American concerns and reputation. I'm moved by the horror of the Hamas attack. I'm not moved to support an exagerrated military response that will bring horrors to a new set of civilians that are no less important to me than Israeli ones.

Israel is not a state in our union. I don't feel like an attack on them is an attack on us. This is action between two foreign parties.

[Poe It Up 126]

3 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

I've largely disengaged from this thread, so forgive me if I'm misreading things.

I see repetition of the Hamas atrocities or added details about them. This is newsworthy, but is it relevant to the fate of civilians in GAZA? Is the idea that should the right combination of ghoulish cruelty shown by the (seems to me) universally condemned Hamas attack will lead to a, "Well, there it is. That's really bad. Kill them all," moment?

I also don't object to the newsworthiness of other theories regarding the explosion near the Gaza hospital. In fact, those firmly of the belief that the Israelis are not culpable should be pleased with each theory that is later debunked. It strengthens their case. I also see this discussion as irrelelevant to the fate of the civilians in Gaza.

I have no idea what the solution is, nor do I think my lack of solution is relevant to the fate of civilians in Gaza. Why should they pay for lack of imagination on my own and others' parts? Why should they pay for the intransigence of various politcal and state entities?

I will take the stand that I don't want the US backing either side militarily. The plea that Israel must survive sounds kind of absurd when they have a conventional military poised to do whatever they want to Gaza. The question of right to exist does not concern Israel in this moment. It's an old tune that is no longer applicable no matter how moving its melody.

We shouldn't be aiding either Israel or Hamas in this conflict. We've likely sacrificed our key value as a detached broker in the conflict. I would support humanitarion aid for non combatants wherever they are. I would abandon the idea of sending a fucking carrier group to that coast as a show of force against mighty Gaza. 

We play this wrong. We stick with cheap theater for the excitable crowd back home. I'm an American and look to American concerns and reputation. I'm moved by the horror of the Hamas attack. I'm not moved to support an exagerrated military response that will bring horrors to a new set of civilians that are no less important to me than Israeli ones.

Israel is not a state in our union. I don't feel like an attack on them is an attack on us. This is action between two foreign parties.

Iran and Russia aid Hamas. Not funding Israel equals genocide. 

[RomaVicta 29781]

1 minute ago, Poe It Up said:

Iran and Russia aid Hamas. Not funding Israel equals genocide. 

That's all you got? 

[956 Worldwide 34428]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

 

These numbers are actually horrifying. 
 

Quote

. In a Washington Institute poll in July, a 57 percent majority indicated a positive opinion of Hamas, but greater numbers expressed positive views of both Fatah (the secular party in charge of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank) and other armed groups. However, over 60 percent supported Hamas maintaining a ceasefire with Israel, and 50 percent said Hamas should stop calling for Israel’s destruction and support a two-state solution instead. Other recent polling from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research found that 77 percent of Gazans want new legislative and presidential elections in the Palestinian territories, but 67 percent of all Palestinians don’t see that happening anytime soon. In a hypothetical election, Hamas would win slightly over Fatah, 34-31 percent, but a 43 percent plurality of Palestinians believe neither group deserves to represent them.

Over half have a positive view of Hamas. Only half are willing to say that Hamas needs to stop trying to completely destroy Israel. In an election, Hamas would win even though a plurality wants neither. 
 

In nearly any parliamentary system a 34 percent result is a win and you get the first chance to form a government. In 1933, that happened in Germany when the NDSAP won 33 percent.

There are a lot of people getting salty when I point out that the genocidal extremists who quote Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promise to fight corruption poll remarkably similarly to some earlier genocidal extremists who quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promised to fight corruption. 

[Poe It Up 126]

7 minutes ago, RomaVicta said:

That's all you got? 

It’s all that’s needed. We can’t be neutral. 

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

These numbers are actually horrifying. 
 

Over half have a positive view of Hamas. Only half are willing to say that Hamas needs to stop trying to completely destroy Israel. In an election, Hamas would win even though a plurality wants neither. 
 

In nearly any parliamentary system a 34 percent result is a win and you get the first chance to form a government. In 1933, that happened in Germany when the NDSAP won 33 percent.

There are a lot of people getting salty when I point out that the genocidal extremists who quote Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promise to fight corruption poll remarkably similarly to some earlier genocidal extremists who quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promised to fight corruption. 

They will not address this point, but good luck. 

[Brian Fantana 6667]

Lulz

[hobbes2702 12804]

33 minutes ago, Neonmoon said:

Please show your work 

I was looking for the quote but I’m not sure I need it anymore 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

26 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

These numbers are actually horrifying. 
 

Over half have a positive view of Hamas. Only half are willing to say that Hamas needs to stop trying to completely destroy Israel. In an election, Hamas would win even though a plurality wants neither. 
 

In nearly any parliamentary system a 34 percent result is a win and you get the first chance to form a government. In 1933, that happened in Germany when the NDSAP won 33 percent.

There are a lot of people getting salty when I point out that the genocidal extremists who quote Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promise to fight corruption poll remarkably similarly to some earlier genocidal extremists who quoted the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and promised to fight corruption. 

Twisting in the wind like this still doesn’t equate the 2+ million people in Gaza to Hamas.  This doesn’t justify collective punishment. It doesn’t justify the open air prison of 2 million.  It doesn’t justify shutting off water or electricity to 2 million.

Blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans only serve to support Bibi and the Likud party. 

Maybe it is time for you to drop another strawman or more atrocity propaganda.

[David Dennison 18655]

28 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Twisting in the wind like this still doesn’t equate the 2+ million people in Gaza to Hamas.  This doesn’t justify collective punishment. It doesn’t justify the open air prison of 2 million.  It doesn’t justify shutting off water or electricity to 2 million.

Blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans only serve to support Bibi and the Likud party. 

Maybe it is time for you to drop another strawman or more atrocity propaganda.

Bigger threat to the existence of the modern state of Israel: Palestinians or Israeli politics?

[GW Hayduke 1952]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Bigger threat to the existence of the modern state of Israel: Palestinians or Israeli politics?

You mean Hamas or the Likud party?

[956 Worldwide 34428]

32 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Twisting in the wind like this still doesn’t equate the 2+ million people in Gaza to Hamas.  This doesn’t justify collective punishment. It doesn’t justify the open air prison of 2 million.  It doesn’t justify shutting off water or electricity to 2 million.

Blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans only serve to support Bibi and the Likud party. 

Maybe it is time for you to drop another strawman or more atrocity propaganda.

A forensic pathologist’s report is not atrocity propaganda, as much as you want it to be. 

[David Dennison 18655]

1 minute ago, GW Hayduke said:

You mean Hamas or the Likud party?

I meant the threat ordinary Palestinians pose versus the anti-democratic trends in Israeli politics, but if you want to do Hamas v. Likud, be my guest.

[Neonmoon 38127]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Bigger threat to the existence of the modern state of Israel: Palestinians or Israeli politics?

Israeli politics 

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20343]

39 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Twisting in the wind like this still doesn’t equate the 2+ million people in Gaza to Hamas.  This doesn’t justify collective punishment. It doesn’t justify the open air prison of 2 million.  It doesn’t justify shutting off water or electricity to 2 million.

Blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans only serve to support Bibi and the Likud party. 

 

I disagree.  1) Gaza is home to Hamas  2) Hamas attacked Israel  3) In my view, self-defense is a universal fundamental right. Every creature, when attacked, does everything it can to defend itself and defeat the attacker  4) Once attacked, Israel has the moral, fundamental-law-of-the-universe to respond and, in fact, the moral duty to do so 5) Knowing this to be the case, Gazans face one of two choices. Either they can house Hamas and expect Israel to try to destroy Hamas  or they can vote/kick Hamas out.  They have had since 2006 to do so and have not, knowing that Israel cannot allow itself to be attacked without attacking back.  It's a pity. It's a human tragedy.  But in terms of moral justification, your argument does not hold water. 

It's probably true that blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans favors Bibi and the  Likud party but it could also be true that this is what the fundamentalist freaks in Hamas want ... some sort of apocalyptic scene that forces Israel to REALLY defend itself. Hezbollah is getting stronger, too. It's very, very sad.  

I remember something that Dr. James Roach, longtime professor of history at UT, once said. It was at the end of the semester and when summing things up he asked, rhetorically, "Can Israel hold out forever?  You never know but given demographic trends I think it's unlikely."  That was in 1986. 

Imagine hating a whole group of people so much that you're willing to kill them all over a difference in belief over a mythical sky creature. 



 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Horn Under a Bad Sign

[956 Worldwide 34428]

1 hour ago, RomaVicta said:

I've largely disengaged from this thread, so forgive me if I'm misreading things.

I see repetition of the Hamas atrocities or added details about them. This is newsworthy, but is it relevant to the fate of civilians in GAZA? Is the idea that should the right combination of ghoulish cruelty shown by the (seems to me) universally condemned Hamas attack will lead to a, "Well, there it is. That's really bad. Kill them all," moment?

I also don't object to the newsworthiness of other theories regarding the explosion near the Gaza hospital. In fact, those firmly of the belief that the Israelis are not culpable should be pleased with each theory that is later debunked. It strengthens their case. I also see this discussion as irrelelevant to the fate of the civilians in Gaza.

I have no idea what the solution is, nor do I think my lack of solution is relevant to the fate of civilians in Gaza. Why should they pay for lack of imagination on my own and others' parts? Why should they pay for the intransigence of various politcal and state entities?

I will take the stand that I don't want the US backing either side militarily. The plea that Israel must survive sounds kind of absurd when they have a conventional military poised to do whatever they want to Gaza. The question of right to exist does not concern Israel in this moment. It's an old tune that is no longer applicable no matter how moving its melody.

We shouldn't be aiding either Israel or Hamas in this conflict. We've likely sacrificed our key value as a detached broker in the conflict. I would support humanitarion aid for non combatants wherever they are. I would abandon the idea of sending a fucking carrier group to that coast as a show of force against mighty Gaza. 

We play this wrong. We stick with cheap theater for the excitable crowd back home. I'm an American and look to American concerns and reputation. I'm moved by the horror of the Hamas attack. I'm not moved to support an exagerrated military response that will bring horrors to a new set of civilians that are no less important to me than Israeli ones.

Israel is not a state in our union. I don't feel like an attack on them is an attack on us. This is action between two foreign parties.

Did you think that each fake theory of how Trump had the election stolen from him was good because it was just another chance to debunk it? This is a real question.  I am having a hard time thinking of a time that letting fake theories circulate is a good thing for debate. 
 

It’s how disinformation works, you flood the zone with so much that the actual truth gets lost. 

[David Dennison 18655]

13 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I disagree.  1) Gaza is home to Hamas  2) Hamas attacked Israel  3) In my view, self-defense is a universal fundamental right. Every creature, when attacked, does everything it can to defend itself and defeat the attacker  4) Once attacked, Israel has the moral, fundamental-law-of-the-universe to respond and, in fact, the moral duty to do so 5) Knowing this to be the case, Gazans face one of two choices. Either they can house Hamas and expect Israel to try to destroy Hamas  or they can vote/kick Hamas out.  They have had since 2006 to do so and have not, knowing that Israel cannot allow itself to be attacked without attacking back.  It's a pity. It's a human tragedy.  But in terms of moral justification, your argument does not hold water. 

It's probably true that blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans favors Bibi and the  Likud party but it could also be true that this is what the fundamentalist freaks in Hamas want ... some sort of apocalyptic scene that forces Israel to REALLY defend itself. Hezbollah is getting stronger, too. It's very, very sad.  

I remember something that Dr. James Roach, longtime professor of history at UT, once said. It was at the end of the semester and when summing things up he asked, rhetorically, "Can Israel hold out forever?  You never know but given demographic trends I think it's unlikely."  That was in 1986. 

Imagine hating a whole group of people so much that you're willing to kill them all over a difference in belief over a mythical sky creature. 

Nor does Israel's treatment of ordinary Palestinians given the overwhelming disparity in power.

[Horn Under a Bad Sign 20343]

6 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Nor does Israel's treatment of ordinary Palestinians given the overwhelming disparity in power.

We could both agree on that and it would still be irrelevant to my point. 

[David Dennison 18655]

Just now, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

We could both agree on that and it would still be irrelevant to my point. 

It's relevant insofar as Israel's treatment of Palestinians might have something to do with the popularity of Hamas in Gaza.

[bolverk 29399]

How about we look at recent polling of Israelis, and y'all tell me what it says about their sentiments regarding peace, principles of democracy, and occupation? Also, compare their results to what we've discussed on this thread regarding potential solutions.

 

"These numbers are actually horrifying."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians

Almost getting to that threshold of people in a parliamentary system where people fundamentally do not agree with the principles of democracy.

 

Totally muddled response.

 

Large majority of Israeli Jews don't want a two-state solution by Arabs do. What?!? I was told Palestinians wouldn't support it!

 

Interesting wording here in that it assumes all of the current internationally recognized boundaries, plus the West Bank and Gaza, are all considered "the Land of Israel."

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/opinions-of-israeli-jews-and-israeli-palestinian-arabs-toward-each-other

Also, it's interesting to note that Arabs living in Israel are consistently more optimistic about the prospects for peace. Is there some sort of misunderstanding?

 

Maybe Jewish opinions of Arabs are totally wrong.

 

It seems Jewish opinions of Arabs are consistently more negative than vice versa.

 

The majority of Jews prefer segregation.

 

More Jews than not don't want to learn about historical and cultural Arab content.

 

Arabs are scared to go into Jewish areas while Jews either suspect Arabs or consider them enemies.

 

 

Maybe we should consider not blaming the Palestinians for everything.

Edited October 22, 2023 by bolverk

[GW Hayduke 1952]

21 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I meant the threat ordinary Palestinians pose versus the anti-democratic trends in Israeli politics, but if you want to do Hamas v. Likud, be my guest.

Ordinary Palestinians don’t pose a threat to Israel. Hamas poses a threat to Israel.  
 

The Likud party also pose a threat to Israel by propping up Hamas, promoting propaganda that dehumanizes the entire Palestinian population, and pushing the blockade and settlements.  

[David Dennison 18655]

7 minutes ago, GW Hayduke said:

Ordinary Palestinians don’t pose a threat to Israel. Hamas poses a threat to Israel.  
 

The Likud party also pose a threat to Israel by propping up Hamas, promoting propaganda that dehumanizes the entire Palestinian population, and pushing the blockade and settlements.  

It's almost like political expediency gets in the way of peace in the Middle East.

Edited October 22, 2023 by David Dennison

[bolverk 29399]

28 minutes ago, Horn Under a Bad Sign said:

I disagree.  1) Gaza is home to Hamas  2) Hamas attacked Israel  3) In my view, self-defense is a universal fundamental right. Every creature, when attacked, does everything it can to defend itself and defeat the attacker  4) Once attacked, Israel has the moral, fundamental-law-of-the-universe to respond and, in fact, the moral duty to do so 5) Knowing this to be the case, Gazans face one of two choices. Either they can house Hamas and expect Israel to try to destroy Hamas  or they can vote/kick Hamas out.  They have had since 2006 to do so and have not, knowing that Israel cannot allow itself to be attacked without attacking back.  It's a pity. It's a human tragedy.  But in terms of moral justification, your argument does not hold water. 

It's probably true that blurring the lines between Hamas and Gazans favors Bibi and the  Likud party but it could also be true that this is what the fundamentalist freaks in Hamas want ... some sort of apocalyptic scene that forces Israel to REALLY defend itself. Hezbollah is getting stronger, too. It's very, very sad.  

I remember something that Dr. James Roach, longtime professor of history at UT, once said. It was at the end of the semester and when summing things up he asked, rhetorically, "Can Israel hold out forever?  You never know but given demographic trends I think it's unlikely."  That was in 1986. 

Imagine hating a whole group of people so much that you're willing to kill them all over a difference in belief over a mythical sky creature. 



 

 

I agree with your five points, but how do you expect normal Gazans to accomplish this alone under the conditions that Gaza is (and has been) under? Has any opposition to Hamas been supported by Hamas's enemies? If not, why? If so, what the fuck have they been doing?

That's not a rhetorical question, either. I frankly do not know.

[956 Worldwide 34428]

14 minutes ago, bolverk said:

How about we look at recent polling of Israeli Jews (80% of Israel's population) and y'all tell me what it says about their sentiments regarding peace, principles of democracy, and the occupation? Also, compare their results to what we've discussed on this thread regarding potential solutions.

 

"These numbers are actually horrifying."

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians

Almost getting to that threshold of people in a parliamentary system where people fundamentally do not agree with the principles of democracy.

 

Totally muddled response.

 

Large majority of Israeli Jews don't want a two-state solution by Arabs do. What?!? I was told Palestinians wouldn't support it!

 

Interesting wording here in that it assumes all of the current internationally recognized boundaries, plus the West Bank and Gaza, are all considered "the Land of Israel."

 

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/opinions-of-israeli-jews-and-israeli-palestinian-arabs-toward-each-other

Also, it's interesting to note that Arabs living in Israel are consistently more optimistic about the prospects for peace. Is there some sort of misunderstanding?

 

Maybe Jewish opinions of Arabs are totally wrong.

 

It seems Jewish opinions of Arabs are consistently more negative than vice versa.

 

The majority of Jews prefer segregation.

 

More Jews than not don't want to learn about historical and cultural Arab content.

 

Arabs are scared to go into Jewish areas while Jews either suspect Arabs or consider them enemies.

 

 

Maybe we should consider not blaming the Palestinians for everything.

A lot of these numbers are super shitty and clearly point to the damage done across a society when extremist elements are fostered for political expediency. We’ve seen that playbook here and all over and Israel is not immune.  A lot of people have pointed out that Bibi belongs to the wave of new authoritarians that manage to keep winning elections by manipulating institutions, he reminds me very much of Orban and Likud of Fidesz. There remains a large delta between the ideology and actions of Hamas and Likud. 
 

And it’s very possible that October 7 will actually lead to enough momentum to oust him. It is possible to believe Bibi is super shitty and that Israel has a right and duty to go after Hamas. 
 

One flag, in this context “Israeli Arabs” are Arabs with Israeli citizenship and not broader Palestinians living in West Bank or Gaza. You may know that it’s just not entirely clear from how the data is presented. 

[GW Hayduke 1952]

17 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

It's almost like political expediency gets in the way of peace in the Middle East.

The far right parties (Bibi and Likud) in Israel and the far right Hamas in Gaza are preventing peace.

[bolverk 29399]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

A lot of these numbers are super shitty and clearly point to the damage done across a society when extremist elements are fostered for political expediency. We’ve seen that playbook here and all over and Israel is not immune.  A lot of people have pointed out that Bibi belongs to the wave of new authoritarians that manage to keep winning elections by manipulating institutions, he reminds me very much of Orban and Likud of Fidesz. There remains a large delta between the ideology and actions of Hamas and Likud. 
 

And it’s very possible that October 7 will actually lead to enough momentum to oust him. It is possible to believe Bibi is super shitty and that Israel has a right and duty to go after Hamas. 
 

One flag, in this context “Israeli Arabs” are Arabs with Israeli citizenship and not broader Palestinians living in West Bank or Gaza. You may know that it’s just not entirely clear from how the data is presented. 

 

Agreed on all counts, and yes, I'm very aware of your final point. Also, maybe, we can consider in light of what the occupation has done to foster destructive sentiments within Gaza and the West Bank and what might actually be possible in a more just situation.

And to those who point out that ordinary Gazans have a responsibility to oust Hamas with no means (or unspecified ones), I'd argue that Israelis have that responsibility too -- except the latter do have the means to do so at the ballot box.

I'd also like to highlight this piece by Roger Cohen about peace advocates on both sides appearing in today's NYTimes because it's important to recognize and support their efforts.

No paywall link: https://archive.ph/U52pF

[956 Worldwide 34428]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

Agreed on all counts, and yes, I'm very aware of your final point. Also, maybe, we can consider in light of what the occupation has done to foster destructive sentiments within Gaza and the West Bank and what might actually be possible in a more just situation.

And to those who point out that ordinary Gazans have a responsibility to oust Hamas with no means (or unspecified ones), I'd argue that Israelis have that responsibility too -- except the latter do have the means to do so at the ballot box.

I'd also like to highlight this piece by Roger Cohen about peace advocates on both sides appearing in today's NYTimes because it's important to recognize and support their efforts.

No paywall link: https://archive.ph/U52pF

I don’t think that it’s fair in all cases to demand that people overthrow their authoritarian or extremists rulers, it isn’t always possible. It probably is not in Gaza. I also don’t think it’s helpful to downplay what is clearly pretty significant support for authoritarian regimes in Gaza or elsewhere, like Russia or Turkey. It absolutely exists. 
 

And I also don’t think that “they didn’t vote for Hamas” means that a fairly large scale operation to defeat Hamas is unjustifiable. You end up with an absurd position where the only morally acceptable wars are when you’re fighting against a democratic government with the support of irs people but the democratic governments are not allowed to hit back. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[bolverk 29399]

11 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I don’t think that it’s fair in all cases to demand that people overthrow their authoritarian or extremists rulers, it isn’t always possible. It probably is not in Gaza. I also don’t think it’s helpful to downplay what is clearly pretty significant support for authoritarian regimes in Gaza or elsewhere, like Russia or Turkey. It absolutely exists. 
 

And I also don’t think that “they didn’t vote for Hamas” means that a fairly large scale operation to defeat Hamas is unjustifiable. You end up with an absurd position where the only morally acceptable wars are when you’re fighting against a democratic government with the support of irs people but the democratic governments are not allowed to hit back. 

 

And, again, as I asked on the previous page, what support have opposition forces within Gaza, both political and military, been receiving from Hamas's enemies? It's an honest question because I'm not sure it *is* realistic without getting that support. If they have been, maybe it should be increased.

I know that Fatah lost to Hamas some 15 years ago in what was basically a civil war in Gaza. Do they even have a presence in Gaza now? If so, why haven't they been getting assistance?

[956 Worldwide 34428]

8 minutes ago, bolverk said:

 

And, again, as I asked on the previous page, what support have opposition forces within Gaza, both political and military, been receiving from Hamas's enemies? It's an honest question because I'm not sure it *is* realistic without getting that support. If they have been, maybe it should be increased.

I know that Fatah lost to Hamas some 15 years ago in what was basically a civil war in Gaza. Do they even have a presence in Gaza now? If so, why haven't they been getting assistance?

As far as I know, none really. Hamas has sort of an uneasy truce with actors like the IJP so long as they remember Israel is the current enemy. And as terrible as they are, Farah doesn’t want to have a big civil war, nor has Israel.

It is a good counter factual, if Israel doesn’t get rid of Hamas then who does? These groups don’t just slink away or disappear and an internal Palestine civil war would probably be worse for Palestinians than an Israeli operation.  You can look at Lebanon and Syria to see how that goes. 

“Be nice and they’ll just become nice or go away” Is magical thinking. 

[bolverk 29399]

9 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

As far as I know, none really. Hamas has sort of an uneasy truce with actors like the IJP so long as they remember Israel is the current enemy. And as terrible as they are, Farah doesn’t want to have a big civil war, nor has Israel.

It is a good counter factual, if Israel doesn’t get rid of Hamas then who does? These groups don’t just slink away or disappear and an internal Palestine civil war would probably be worse for Palestinians than an Israeli operation.  You can look at Lebanon and Syria to see how that goes. 

“Be nice and they’ll just become nice or go away” Is magical thinking. 

Yeah, I'm trying to be realistic in my thinking here. Hamas has got to go, but we insist Gazans do it themselves without any outside support. So, then, Israel has to be the "bad guys" and do it themselves, causing all kinds of uproar, but then we also know that Bibi et al have been supporting Hamas all this time to keep Fatah from being a viable counterbalance within Gaza.

So, if we (the collective voice of peace, democracy, and moderation) aren't supporting the only known group that might have sway, aren't we then setting up the Gazan public for failure? It's kind of a Catch-22, don't you think?

[linux 1659]

I used to visit a British Pro Israeli blog more than a decade ago, they seemed to be militant secularists that absolutely loathed the global left for siding with the Palestinians. I went back there recently due to the crisis and almost all the users I vaguely remember were gone, maybe one left. They were all replaced with at least 50% pro MAGA, Bibi, Modhi, et al aka the fascist axis. Suffice to say the quality dropped.

That is the future of Israel. They reach this collective arrogance that they are superior (only democracy in the ME arrogance) and boom they get roasted by one man/ideology destroying their supreme court, all this talk of Bibi losing a future election is laughable, when have fascists ever voted rationally? And even if he did leave the theocracy voters remain.

Israel is orgasmic about its past military successes, they are blinded by it and think they can win anything, outlast anything, but they are literally falling on the same incompetent fascist idiocy, a fascist idiocy that lost WWII and is losing the Ukrainian war. 

Topple the Likud alliance and go back the Green Line and two state solution, that is the only hope, because now I worry more about Israeli nukes than Moscow nukes.

[RomaVicta 29781]

8 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Did you think that each fake theory of how Trump had the election stolen from him was good because it was just another chance to debunk it? This is a real question.  I am having a hard time thinking of a time that letting fake theories circulate is a good thing for debate. 
 

It’s how disinformation works, you flood the zone with so much that the actual truth gets lost. 

Disinformation is unavoidable. Refuting it is the only way to limit the damage. You're getting a bit shrill.

[Nivek 16856]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:56 PM, Brian Fantana said:

I don't know why you guys keep hammering this as if everyone isn't aware and says Hamas has to go. I mean, I know why I just want to hear you say it.

Who should remove/deal with Hamas and how should it be done?

[Nivek 16856]

On 10/20/2023 at 4:58 PM, MC Fresh Breath said:

I'll kind of do the same with your rant.  But I won't falsely imply bigotry.  Well, not yet.

Edit:

 

That's kind of it in a nutshell, isn't it?  You don't care because it is easier to "both sides" this thing. I'll lump you in wit h Brisket and 956 and move on. Lolz at an apartheid state committing genocide being little offenses though.

Another misrepresentation.  One side wants peace. the other does not.  I have never denied that Israel has done some fucked up things, or that individuals within the IDF have done some fucked up things.  I don't need list to understand that.   You however, have failed to acknowledge how the Palestinians got to this point, how they have continued to perpetuate a cycle of violence over a path to peace.   

Again, they murdered the king of Jordan, a PM of Jordan, started a Syrian Invasion of Jordan, and tried to overthrow the other King of Jordan, and were a catalyst for the Lebanese civil war.  Will you acknowledge this?  

If you acknowledge those things then ask yourself,  how does a nation, like Israel, Jordan, Lebanon, or Egypt, supposed to work with them, if this is how they treat their hosts (Jordan, Lebanon)?   How do you work with a people who are unwilling to work towards a peace agreement or path to normalcy, but actively undermine these efforts? This latest Hamas attack was timed to undermine Israeli-Saudi relations.  To provoke a bombing campaign against them while they hide amongst the populus.   This wasn't some fucking coincidence. 

What would you do?  Kill the belligerents?  Appease them?  Both?  Lay siege to the entire city until they capitulate or die?  What is you actual idea?  What will it take for Palestinians to stop the violence?   How would one achieve that in a realistic sense, not some bullshit fantasy?  How does this end?  Not just this new edition of a conflict but the whole fucking thing.   

 

[mchookem 16206]

what is Plan Dalet? i have literally never heard of it and am seeing it referenced as an intentional ethnic cleansing of Arabs/Palestinians plan, from way back in 1948. i mean i checked the google machine and it...reads a lot like what's been happening in modern day Palestine, but i don't know any historical context or what may have preceeded it.