Israel

[TreatyOak 16311]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

....and that's almost certainly because our record-keeping for those 268 years was shit, and missed a war or two or a hundred.

Was thinking the same. 

[formermav43 4606]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

....and that's almost certainly because our record-keeping for those 268 years was shit, and missed a war or two or a hundred.

A day here, a day there. It adds up.

[Deej 76756]

3 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm a fan of running headlong into a brick wall repeatedly, because fuck that fucking wall.  I'm just sanguine enough to know our chances of ever breaking through are immeasurably small.

It can happen. Don't give up hope.

 

[Nivek 16923]

6 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Ok, what's your fucking point? I said very clearly that it's not an easy or fast solution and that it probably wouldn't work because both sides are led by absolute psychos. History very clearly teaches us the lesson that terrorist organizations only really go away when a diplomatic solution is reached. If you destroy them and squeeze Gazans harder, something worse will just take its place.

What's your alternative? Genocide? Because it sounds like you just want to say the solution is genocide but you know what the reaction will be.

It is absolutely hilarious to me that people like you continue to ascribe only bad intentions on the Palestinian side, and only good ones on the Israeli side. Get fucking real, you're just lying to yourself and everyone else at this point. If you want to spout ahistorical propaganda, go fucking post on TexAgs.

This is a lot of bullshit in that post, but let's take a stab at it.  

My point was that naive people like to promote fantasy solutions that are not grounded in reality and I pointed out that your ideas while nice, are flawed because they have been tried and rejected in favor of more violence, and thus not realistic to try again with the very same people who broke it and just launched a massive attack that killed several hundred people.  (I don't know the final numbers, and it is not relevant)  

Netanyahu is not an absolute psycho.  Asshole, OK, but he upheld the agreement of Oslo even though he didn't broker it or favor it.   He was also working on an agreement with the Saudis, so there is precedence for him working with others.  Now do Hamas and don't say Iran.  And before you try to weasel out of it, both were elected.    

History teaches us no such thing.  I already demonstrated that earlier in the thread.  I will just refer you to it for a lesson. Just because you hear some buzzword or phrase that others like to banter about doesn't mean it's true.  I suppose if you just ignore facts or are ignorant of history, then it might seem true. 

When did I absolve Israel of their bad actions?  Point to that post.   When did I ever say they didn't have blood on their hands?  Point to that post.  Since you declared this, you should have the receipts.  It should be easy to find.   Saying that both groups have blood on their hands is not false-equivocating, it is simply a statement of fact.  When I listed how the Palestinians have behaved and caused upheaval in Jordan and Lebanon, not one of you wanted to comment on that.  When I mentioned that Egypt bulldozes Palestinian homes, and asked why, none of you dared to respond or even confirm or deny it.  Why?  Because you act with dissonance.   I think you picked a side, got emotional, and take this personally.   

You are wishcasting now with the Texags and ahistorical comments.  

To Brisket you suggested you favor solutions that could work, even if unlikely.  I am a bit more grounded in reality it seems.  I mean, if we could invent a time-machine we could have another solution or two.  And with that time-machine, maybe if we brought vaccines and gave them to the Jews to distribute to the Germanic peoples they wouldn't have had a history of pogroms and then maybe a bit of gratitude to the Jews living there could have fostered and they could have lived in harmony and Adolph would have just been a middling painter who while not remembered, put a few pieces of art in some homes and offices for the future.  I mean, there is a shot right?  We should consider this right?  Just gotta get that first part finished.   What is your definition of unlikely?  Surely not the time machine plan.   Define it.  Just offer a new agreement like Oslo?  Hand Hamas over some more guns and ask them to police themselves?  It might work.  

Another difference between us is that you refuse to acknowledge the difference between the ruling parties, you attempt to false equivocate the actions and the governments of both the Palestinians and Israeli's.   You talk of diplomacy and recognition either not acknowledging that it was tried and how/why it failed.   And since you simply cannot make a real case, you try to shout down or ad hominem attack your way into pretending you are the reasonable one.    You toss around accusations because you have lost.  I doubt you even see the irony of demonizing a person online that you never met, but are free to project whatever bullshit you can concoct at that moment, in order to win, while talking about bias and people not being rational.

I think Brisket is generally a happier person but who got stuck in a rut due to the cycle of bad news, and lack of positive outlets (Texas football, Trumpism, Abbott, wars, kids growing up and leaving, losing a friend/poster).  While there are moments he has shared which are inspiring (Afghan foster family) there seems to be a slight loneliness lingering.  Maybe he needs a corvette or a young mistress.     

Edited October 25, 2023 by Nivek
clarity.

[TeeDubya 3362]

WSJ reporting one of the Iranian cruise missiles launched toward Israel, was downed by Saudi Arabia.
 

 

[linux 1660]

2 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

I am relaying what Israeli extremists publish in op Ed's.

 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-07-op-perlmutter-story.html

[Welshy 907]

Misanthropy sucks. People do not suck. Tribalism sucks...especially in this global world. It's not people. It's teams. Theirs vs ours. 

Humans will go to incredible lengths to justify "our" side. Our side holds, fuck you. Their side holds, conspiracy. Black vs white, republicans vs democrats, Israeli vs Palestinian, north vs south, boomers vs millennials. It's not some core defect in humans. It's many, many, many years of survival and defense. Talk to anyone 1X1 and you can find common ground. Talk 2m to 2m and fuck them, protect our shit, they don't get it.

Humanity is glorious and stunning and awe inspiring. Don't give up.

Also, kill Hamas. 

[chainsaw 9860]

3 hours ago, linux said:

Read up on Operation Neuland, U-boats sank like 20+ tankers in the Caribbean thousands of nautical miles away from docks and pens, the idea that Israel can not launch a single salvo in the absolute worst case scenario, is ridiculous, would a SSBN be more successful? hell yeah of course but a suicide run from a Dolphin class that allies chose to ignore. Yeah that is keeping me up at night if Israel really really starts losing.

An SSK running on batteries are the most silent subs in the world.

 

Good thing it's not a theocratic ethnostate

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 minutes ago, linux said:

I am relaying what Israeli extremists publish in op Ed's.

 

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-apr-07-op-perlmutter-story.html

Gotcha. You’re basing your assessment of a nation’s nuclear doctrine on an Op-Ed published in the LA Times 21 years ago by a LSU communications professor. Sounds good, not at all like you’re swimming in the shittiest parts of the Internet. Informed by German U-Boat activities in WWII. 
 

Fuck off with this shit, it’s basically Q-Anon. 

[Anastasis 23464]

A couple of decades look back is far too long. American foreign policy perspective operates in much shorter timeframes. Which is how we end up supporting saddam before we didn’t, overthrowing democracy outcomes in Iran, propping up the mujahideen that morphs into the taliban, etc. What we really need is more condescending state department mouthpieces to tell the people that have linger attention spans how out of touch they really are.  

[Welshy 907]

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

A couple of decades look back is far too long. American foreign policy perspective operates in much shorter timeframes. Which is how we end up supporting saddam before we didn’t, overthrowing democracy outcomes in Iran, propping up the mujahideen that morphs into the taliban, etc. What we really need is more condescending state department mouthpieces to tell the people that have linger attention spans how out of touch they really are.  

Right?

[Anastasis 23464]

1 minute ago, Welshy said:

Right?

I know. 

[linux 1660]

1 hour ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Gotcha. You’re basing your assessment of a nation’s nuclear doctrine on an Op-Ed published in the LA Times 21 years ago by a LSU communications professor. Sounds good, not at all like you’re swimming in the shittiest parts of the Internet. Informed by German U-Boat activities in WWII. 
 

Fuck off with this shit, it’s basically Q-Anon. 

Are you expecting me to steal top secret documents to prove an internet argument?

Good fucking luck, if you want to end the discussion by stating you only accept Top Secret documents then so be it, we are done.

Don't insult my intelligence by calling Qanon cause we know they thought about it, they thought about it real hard. And because of this I too have thought about it.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

One of the major gaps with leftism (not liberalism) in general is an absolute disconnect and abandonment of any serious engagement with military affairs and how that intersect with statecraft and diplomacy. You see this even with the slow moving elimination of military history programs as a serious source of study.
 

 I’m not sure why, and it’s starting to seep in among rightist ideologues, too. Probably because it’s hard and less satisfying than reading Theory. And also because we get a lot of this from Europe that spent a few decades pretending like their militaries didn’t exist and weren’t needed. And it’s a real change from the Old Line Bolsheviks who figured out that this shit matters in a hurry. 

And so you end up with absolutely nonsense garbage that passes for actual thought about what states can do or are planning to do. Because you can gather a whole hell of a lot of insight into any nation’s intentions and plans and fears by looking at their military procurement patterns and what those platforms can do or are intended to do, or what trainings they are investing in, and on down the line.
 

Show me what airplanes they are buying, what missiles they are stockpiling, their capabilities, range, what units they are standing up. This is much more valuable that parsing party statements or op-eds by communications professors, or for sure oodles of YouTube videos. You get to a point to where a German anti-shipping campaign in during World War II is supposed to offer some sort of insight into how the modern state of Israel thinks about its nuclear deterrent and how they might use it. 
 

This shit that Linux is posting is absolutely laughable, submarine suicide runs and doomsday doctrines or whatever the fuck ever. It’s hot garbage, it wouldn’t even pass the better editors of airport novels but it’s being thrown out here like it’s some serious thing.

[Nivek 16923]

22 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

 

This shit that Linux is posting is absolutely laughable, submarine suicide runs and doomsday doctrines or whatever the fuck ever. It’s hot garbage, it wouldn’t even pass the better editors of airport novels but it’s being thrown out here like it’s some serious thing.

Someone never read Clive Cussler.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Anyway, for why this is stupid and why Germany’s Caribbean campaign was irrelevant.

U-Boats spent the vast majority of their time on the surface or snorkeling. That is how they made the Transatlantic crossing to arrive on station where they did their patrols, their underwater range and endurance was limited to basically hiding from enemy ships and planes that might see them or when they dove to attack. This worked in the 1940s because oceans are big and it’s hard to find boats and ships in them. 
 

Modern non-nuclear submarines have much better range, especially some of Israel’s Dolphins which have Air Independent Propulsion (AIP). But they still have to come up. The very best known record for an AIP-equipped submarine would allow it, in an incredible feat, to sail from Israel and very slowly make its way a bit past the Straits of Gibraltar, where it would have to surface. The cruise missiles it carries have a range of about 1,000 miles, so still splashing down well short of any U.S. targets. Israeli boats are going to be capable of significantly less than that, especially if they’ve been deployed at a time of war or heightens tensions.

And it’s absurd to think that European and U.S. space and aerial reconnaissance isn’t closely focused on “where is the nuclear weapon equipped submarine” in a time of all-out war in the Middle East when Israel is fighting for its life.  This fantasy of allies just ignoring that or submarines launching a whirlwind of missiles against European targets within that 1000 km  instead of using them against the country that attacked Israel is just stupid, it’s a fever dream. The idea of it happening against the United States isn’t even fever-dream possible. 
 

On the other hand, these platforms are very good for what Israel bought them to do, which is to be quiet when submerged mostly invulnerable to regional rivals they might go to war with.  
 

The deep silliness here is that Israel has developed an ICBM that would be more useful for this revenge fantasy.  But it’s not part of the theory, because the theory was not developed by serious people.

[Anastasis 23464]

Look, if you are not a technocrat that can assess military procurement manifests you really have no basis to comment on the dysfunction of American foreign policy from an outcomes oriented perspective. Get it. Just suck it up and get on the merry go round. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

9 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Look, if you are not a technocrat that can assess military procurement manifests you really have no basis to comment on the dysfunction of American foreign policy from an outcomes oriented perspective. Get it. Just suck it up and get on the merry go round. 

I mean sure, do that, but maybe stay away from theorizing about how the Jews are plotting to blow up the world? 

[TwiceHorn 31440]

4 hours ago, 956 Worldwide said:

This is absolutely some of the most unhinged conspiracy theory shit I’ve a seen on this board. “Israel has a plan to destroy the world and shoot nukes at us if it’s losing a war,” FFS.  What information waters are you swimming in? 

Not to mention, US subs operated in Tokyo Bay.  After traversing 2000 miles from Pearl to there, mostly on the surface, at speeds about that of a freight convoy (e.g. 8-10 knots), just like the Krauts.

The best diesel-electric boats have a submerged range in the vicinity of 4-500 NM, meaning they're going to have to spend a lot of time on the surface to go anywhere, like out of the Mediterranean, which is about 2500 miles long.

So, yeah, diesel electric boats are stealthy as hell when submerged.  The problem is they're extremely vulnerable outside coastal waters.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by TwiceHorn

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Sub talk not going away. Someone call Blacklab please. 

 

[linux 1660]

Fine dropping the subject.

Edited October 25, 2023 by linux

[InkaUtexas 25875]

What about ASW Surveillance? We still have PBY's with dudes with binoculars up there? 

[linux 1660]

9 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

What about ASW Surveillance? We still have PBY's with dudes with binoculars up there? 

I don't know if ASW surveilance of those Dolphin class by NATO countries strengthens or weakens my argument?, I will leave the reader to reach their own conclusion.

I will also leave you guys the question if snorkling by U-boats, and their 99% surface crusising, weakens or strengthens my argument?

Dunno you tell me. I am criticizing your logical argument guys sheesh.

Edited October 25, 2023 by linux

[InkaUtexas 25875]

Considering they are nato built, I would think we know their signature. 

Anyways, should we make a submarine thread? 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

45 minutes ago, linux said:

I don't know if ASW surveilance of those Dolphin class by NATO countries strengthens or weakens my argument?, I will leave the reader to reach their own conclusion.

I will also leave you guys the question if snorkling by U-boats, and their 99% surface crusising, weakens or strengthens my argument?

Dunno you tell me. I am criticizing your logical argument guys sheesh.

There’s not an argument. There’s a conspiracy theory. As I said, it’s easy to see the waters you’re swimming in with this. InfoWars. Extreme anti-semites. 

https://www.infowars.com/posts/samson-option-mark-levin-urges-israel-to-consider-firing-off-entire-nuclear-arsenal-if-threatened/

 

Quote

The Samson Option, which Mark Levin and Ben Shapiro are so eager to threaten, is Israel’s threat to wipe out the entire planet if their 75-year-old Zionist project — which they chose to place in Palestine surrounded by their blood enemies — goes south. 

 

 

https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/anti-semite-ken-okeefe-us-speaking-tour
 

Quote

He added, “They even abduct, torture, have sex with and ritually sacrifice young children.” He also promoted the conspiracy theory that Israel would take the “Samson option,” and exterminate the world “if it feels that its existence is threatened.”

Nick Fucking Fuentes and groypers. 
 

 So yeah, you’re actually way beyond Q-Anon with this shit. Horseshoe effect in action. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by 956 Worldwide

[linux 1660]

I quoted latimes opeds, don't get pissy, and try again.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

Yes, you and Nick Fuentes agree that an op-ed by an LSU communications professor and some speculative quotes by a historian are evidence of a Jewish plot to destroy the world or at least much of Europe if Israel is about to lose a war, thanks for the concise summary of how blood libel-type shit gets injected into the discourse. 

[Welshy 907]

1 hour ago, InkaUtexas said:

Sub talk not going away. Someone call Blacklab please. 

 

Please don't. 

[InkaUtexas 25875]

4 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Please don't. 

Well now there is a thread dedicated to sub talk so I am sure he will be here soon. 

 

[Anastasis 23464]

Cute prissy slap fight taking place here. Every country with nuke capabilities has a variety of contingency plans to use those weapons within the scope and to the extent that their deployment capabilities allow. Arguing otherwise is pure delusion. Even more delusional is the so-called rules-based international order that ostriches when it comes to enforcing nuclear non-proliferation interests consistently. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Anastasis

[Welshy 907]

Ima make a grilled-cheese, brb. But before I do that, I want to say thanks be to Israeli Christian Arab gods make a grilled cheese. One thing we can all agree on is a grolled cheese is not possible without the intervention of some maniacal mf-er in the sky. > iPhones, amiriight? Praise allah/christ..They (ugh) will fix this.

[Anastasis 23464]

13 minutes ago, Welshy said:

But before I do that, I want to say thanks be to Israeli Christian Arab gods make a grilled cheese.

Frito pie and texmex cheese enchiladas are basically the same dish. 

Also tamales with chili and cheese topping. 

[Welshy 907]

11 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Frito pie and texmex cheese enchiladas are basically the same dish. Also tamales with chili and cheese topping. 

Burnt it. Still pretty good. ...didn't have any butter, Intertrons said mayonnaise. (That's the actual spelling. mayonnaise.) worked. Ate that shit like a boss. 

 

Spoiler

Boss. 

 

[Welshy 907]

20 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Frito pie and texmex cheese enchiladas are basically the same dish. 

Also tamales with chili and cheese topping. 

They are not the same, you heathen.  

[Anastasis 23464]

Just now, Welshy said:

They are not the same, you heathen.  

I don’t think that I need any notes on the flavor profiles involved from a poster that can’t make a grilled cheese without burning it. 

[Welshy 907]

Just now, Anastasis said:

I don’t think that I need any notes on the flavor profiles involved from a poster that can’t make a grilled cheese without burning it. 

Where do I go from here? You can't make a grilled cheese, you can't life. 

Take me, jebus. I'm ready. 

[Anastasis 23464]

3 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Where do I go from here? You can't make a grilled cheese, you can't life. 

Take me, jebus. I'm ready. 

Mayo is the way doh. 

[Welshy 907]

Also, enchilada is in no way like a frito pie. They are not even in the same food group.

One's a vegetable, ones a fruit. 

 

[Anastasis 23464]

Fried masa and cornmeal, chili, cheese, white onion, maybe slight variations on the proportions involved but it is essentially the same dish. And certainly the same food group. 

[Anastasis 23464]

Tamale chili pie is perhaps more distinct because of the tamale pork filling and the soft corn masa situation. You’d be better off arguing that angle. 

[Welshy 907]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Tamale chili pie is perhaps more distinct because of the tamale pork filling and the soft corn masa situation. You’d be better off arguing that angle. 

You're entitled to your opinion. 

I'm just saying that doesn't seem like an enchilada.

I'm happy to war about it...I don't wanna, but I've got big goddamned guns and I know what an enchilada is.

Stop fucking about. 

[Anastasis 23464]

But seriously, what do all of these people have against pork. 

3 minutes ago, Welshy said:

Stop fucking about. 

Stop burning the grilled cheese. 

[Welshy 907]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

But seriously, what do all of these people have against pork. 

Stop burning the grilled cheese. 

Fair. 

[Brian Fantana 6683]

6 hours ago, Nivek said:

This is a lot of bullshit in that post, but let's take a stab at it.  

My point was that naive people like to promote fantasy solutions that are not grounded in reality and I pointed out that your ideas while nice, are flawed because they have been tried and rejected in favor of more violence, and thus not realistic to try again with the very same people who broke it and just launched a massive attack that killed several hundred people.  (I don't know the final numbers, and it is not relevant)  

Netanyahu is not an absolute psycho.  Asshole, OK, but he upheld the agreement of Oslo even though he didn't broker it or favor it.   He was also working on an agreement with the Saudis, so there is precedence for him working with others.  Now do Hamas and don't say Iran.  And before you try to weasel out of it, both were elected.    

History teaches us no such thing.  I already demonstrated that earlier in the thread.  I will just refer you to it for a lesson. Just because you hear some buzzword or phrase that others like to banter about doesn't mean it's true.  I suppose if you just ignore facts or are ignorant of history, then it might seem true. 

When did I absolve Israel of their bad actions?  Point to that post.   When did I ever say they didn't have blood on their hands?  Point to that post.  Since you declared this, you should have the receipts.  It should be easy to find.   Saying that both groups have blood on their hands is not false-equivocating, it is simply a statement of fact.  When I listed how the Palestinians have behaved and caused upheaval in Jordan and Lebanon, not one of you wanted to comment on that.  When I mentioned that Egypt bulldozes Palestinian homes, and asked why, none of you dared to respond or even confirm or deny it.  Why?  Because you act with dissonance.   I think you picked a side, got emotional, and take this personally.   

You are wishcasting now with the Texags and ahistorical comments.  

To Brisket you suggested you favor solutions that could work, even if unlikely.  I am a bit more grounded in reality it seems.  I mean, if we could invent a time-machine we could have another solution or two.  And with that time-machine, maybe if we brought vaccines and gave them to the Jews to distribute to the Germanic peoples they wouldn't have had a history of pogroms and then maybe a bit of gratitude to the Jews living there could have fostered and they could have lived in harmony and Adolph would have just been a middling painter who while not remembered, put a few pieces of art in some homes and offices for the future.  I mean, there is a shot right?  We should consider this right?  Just gotta get that first part finished.   What is your definition of unlikely?  Surely not the time machine plan.   Define it.  Just offer a new agreement like Oslo?  Hand Hamas over some more guns and ask them to police themselves?  It might work.  

Another difference between us is that you refuse to acknowledge the difference between the ruling parties, you attempt to false equivocate the actions and the governments of both the Palestinians and Israeli's.   You talk of diplomacy and recognition either not acknowledging that it was tried and how/why it failed.   And since you simply cannot make a real case, you try to shout down or ad hominem attack your way into pretending you are the reasonable one.    You toss around accusations because you have lost.  I doubt you even see the irony of demonizing a person online that you never met, but are free to project whatever bullshit you can concoct at that moment, in order to win, while talking about bias and people not being rational.

I think Brisket is generally a happier person but who got stuck in a rut due to the cycle of bad news, and lack of positive outlets (Texas football, Trumpism, Abbott, wars, kids growing up and leaving, losing a friend/poster).  While there are moments he has shared which are inspiring (Afghan foster family) there seems to be a slight loneliness lingering.  Maybe he needs a corvette or a young mistress.     

Dude you are out of your fucking mind. My solution was a suggestion of how to erode support for Hamas within Gazans and defeat them diplomatically. I didn't say it was very realistic, in fact, in discussing it with Brisket I literally said the direct opposite. I understand that it's incredibly unlikely for such a solution to be implemented at this point. I did say, however, that I do prefer a difficult solution to one that involves genocide. Holy shit, how crazy, fuck me right? Also, I should note that I never advocated for a diplomatic solution with Hamas, I suggested that the olive branch be extended to the people, in spite of and in defiance of Hamas, who doesn't want that any more than Netanyahu's government does. I understand that you are incredibly horny to conflate all Gazans with Hamas, like some of the people that have brayed for blood in the DT thread, but....you know. Stop it.

Also, Netanyahu absolutely is a right-wing psycho, as is his cabinet full of far-right, religious extremist, ultranationalist bloodthirsty freaks like Itamar Ben-Gvir. Since you just love bringing up the Oslo accords, and subsequently placing 100% of the blame on Palestinians (like you do with everything else), why don't you talk about how the aforemention literal current natsec minister for Israel was among a group of far-right extremist Israelis that threatened the life of, and subsequently assassinated their own PM for signing the accords in the first place. Why don't you talk about how the failure of the accords was almost certainly mostly related to the continued [illegal] expansion into the West Bank, the fact that there were MAJOR sticking points that were left entirely unresolved or ignored by the time it came to sign them, among other things.

The "tried and rejected many times" narrative that you and others try to push in this thread is a fucking reductionist, ahistorical canard that has been discussed and debunked many times over the past decades, but it just keeps coming up because the freak show that is Western media won't stop shoveling it and other bullshit down our throats. You're welcome to watch the video I linked earlier to learn why I say that.

You really need to stop demanding solutions from people you are discussing this situation with on a fucking sports message board. You can stop being a debate pervert for one day, I promise you it will feel good. Half of this post is just literal fucking word salad and I can't figure out what you're trying to say or trying to get me to say. It's like having a flashback to trying to have a conversation with the OP of this thread.

It's incredibly cute and slightly pathetic that you're literally trying to claim victory as if this is some kind of game to you. Be better than that, again, this isn't a debatelord space.

[Nivek 16923]

7 hours ago, Brian Fantana said:

Dude you are out of your fucking mind. My solution was a suggestion of how to erode support for Hamas within Gazans and defeat them diplomatically. I didn't say it was very realistic, in fact, in discussing it with Brisket I literally said the direct opposite. I understand that it's incredibly unlikely for such a solution to be implemented at this point. I did say, however, that I do prefer a difficult solution to one that involves genocide. Holy shit, how crazy, fuck me right? Also, I should note that I never advocated for a diplomatic solution with Hamas, I suggested that the olive branch be extended to the people, in spite of and in defiance of Hamas, who doesn't want that any more than Netanyahu's government does. I understand that you are incredibly horny to conflate all Gazans with Hamas, like some of the people that have brayed for blood in the DT thread, but....you know. Stop it.

Also, Netanyahu absolutely is a right-wing psycho, as is his cabinet full of far-right, religious extremist, ultranationalist bloodthirsty freaks like Itamar Ben-Gvir. Since you just love bringing up the Oslo accords, and subsequently placing 100% of the blame on Palestinians (like you do with everything else), why don't you talk about how the aforemention literal current natsec minister for Israel was among a group of far-right extremist Israelis that threatened the life of, and subsequently assassinated their own PM for signing the accords in the first place. Why don't you talk about how the failure of the accords was almost certainly mostly related to the continued [illegal] expansion into the West Bank, the fact that there were MAJOR sticking points that were left entirely unresolved or ignored by the time it came to sign them, among other things.

The "tried and rejected many times" narrative that you and others try to push in this thread is a fucking reductionist, ahistorical canard that has been discussed and debunked many times over the past decades, but it just keeps coming up because the freak show that is Western media won't stop shoveling it and other bullshit down our throats. You're welcome to watch the video I linked earlier to learn why I say that.

You really need to stop demanding solutions from people you are discussing this situation with on a fucking sports message board. You can stop being a debate pervert for one day, I promise you it will feel good. Half of this post is just literal fucking word salad and I can't figure out what you're trying to say or trying to get me to say. It's like having a flashback to trying to have a conversation with the OP of this thread.

It's incredibly cute and slightly pathetic that you're literally trying to claim victory as if this is some kind of game to you. Be better than that, again, this isn't a debatelord space.

Let me translate this:

Insult.  I don't know what I am talking about.  Insult.  Evidence which is immaterial.  Big words.  Irrelevant statements trying to pivot away from your failure mixed with insults.

Quite the retort you had. 

------------------------------

This is kind of amusing to me, otherwise I wouldn't participate.   Yet, I am not the one hurling insults and claiming others who disagree with me must be bigoted.  You are the one who stated what Israel was doing was wrong, IIRC called it genocide (it is not) and blamed them for being equally bad.  You falsely equivocate two groups because it is easy, lazy thinking.  And when pressed, you simply refuse to acknowledge the facts and go back to insults and misrepresentations.  Yes, Rabin was murdered by extremists within the Israeli society.  But Netanyahu honored the agreement.  Then what happened? (you don't want to answer this because you know it weakens your hope for a new treaty). 

This is a discussion board, one centered around politics.  That you cannot participate like an adult is really a reflection of your own shortcomings, not mine.  I asked you questions based on your statements.  I am in no position to demand anything from you.  You were under no obligation to answer or reply, but you did.  You were the one who claimed to have a solution but it was really just wishful thinking.  A nice sentiment really.  But one unburdened by the complexities of reality.   Much like how Chainsaw thinks I should receive repatriation of my ancestral lands.  

The world would be better off if we could just lock up the members of Hamas and the Lukid party in a room together give them a bunch of knives and seal the doors off and surround it in 20 feet of concrete.  But since that isn't going to happen it is little more than fantasy.   It is a less nice sentiment, better than the current situation, but also unburdened by reality.  

You might have been better off just saying "this sucks, I hate the loss of life and harm that is coming to people due to the actions of the militants.  I wish there were a simple solution to resolve it, but I fear we will be seeing this play out again and again in my lifetime."   Everyone would agree with that sentiment (well most of us would).  

 

[chainsaw 9860]

5 minutes ago, Nivek said:

called it genocide (it is not)

How are you defining genocide?

[Nivek 16923]

1 hour ago, chainsaw said:

How are you defining genocide?

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.  

Varint:

Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. There is Federal jurisdiction if the offense is committed within the United States.

Apply this term too broadly and it becomes meaningless.   

[nbmishoid 949]

Also meaningless is discussion around which bad is worse than some other bad.

[linux 1660]

Quote

"It is important to also recognize the attacks by Hamas did not happen in a vacuum.

The Palestinian people have been subjected to 56 years of suffocating occupation.

They have seen their land steadily devoured by settlements and plagued by violence; their economy stifled; their people displaced and their homes demolished. Their hopes for a political solution to their plight have been vanishing.

But the grievances of the Palestinian people cannot justify the appalling attacks by Hamas. And those appalling attacks cannot justify the collective punishment of the Palestinian people."

Israel kicked out the UN over a milquetoast statement by the secretary general, we are back to Bibi running his fascist campaign of lil old Israel, she needs me to defend her!

Honestly I don't care, delay the assault until next year, it is not like Bibi was not going to weasel his way out of this, and if he wants to delay it is good for civilians.

[chainsaw 9860]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

The deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.  

Varint:

Genocide is defined in § 1091 and includes violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group. There is Federal jurisdiction if the offense is committed within the United States.

Apply this term too broadly and it becomes meaningless.   

Where is this section 1091 coming from?