Israel

[Anastasis 23,464]

6 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Killing Jews who refuse to convert is the cornerstone of both Islamic and Christian dispensationalist eschatology.

 

[DDD Dad 14,330]

29 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Israel will never allow there to be a functional and sovereign palestinian state. Vaporize Hamas, shit vaporize all the islamists or swap them out with secular or christian palestinians, doesn't matter. There will never be a palestinian state that is allowed to operate within the area now occupied by Israel. 

I disagree.  While recent polls suggest a majority of both Palestinians and Israelis oppose a two state solution and a decline in the percentage of those supporting one, there is still a significant minority of support (anywhere from 35-40 something percent of from what I was able to google).   

A diplomatic solution can be achieved.  However, it may take the loss and destruction of many more lives before enough support for one develops.

 

[F250 28,764]

10 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

The fact is that as long as Abrahamic religions exist, the Jews are fucked. 

['stache 21,800]

45 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

 

Yeah, I'm not getting how this is anti-semitic.  From what I've read, some West Bank settlers have engaged in terroristic conduct.  They should be prosecuted and punished, and the Israeli government needs to stop tacitly encouraging it.

It's not, I probably laid the sarcasm on too thick. I think Palestinians have a legitimate grievance going back 75 years or more. Having to constantly qualify that opinion by making clear you denounce terrorism and think Hamas is not a proper representative of everyday Palestinians gets lost when criticizing Israel. I for one won't say any of this in open company because I know my point will be easily skewed, sometimes intentionally sometimes unintentionally. I think my comment was because I had just seen posts about professors being anti-Semetic and the screenshots showed reduction of Palestinian territories over the years. I can certainly see a professor going too far in criticisms, but the screenshot and the accusations just didn't match up in my opinion. 

[DixonHur 11,296]

Is there a question in there?  I'm happy to walk you through it.

[DDD Dad 14,330]

1 minute ago, 'stache said:

It's not, I probably laid the sarcasm on too thick. I think Palestinians have a legitimate grievance going back 75 years or more. Having to constantly qualify that opinion by making clear you denounce terrorism and think Hamas is not a proper representative of everyday Palestinians gets lost when criticizing Israel. I for one won't say any of this in open company because I know my point will be easily skewed, sometimes intentionally sometimes unintentionally. I think my comment was because I had just seen posts about professors being anti-Semetic and the screenshots showed reduction of Palestinian territories over the years. I can certainly see a professor going too far in criticisms, but the screenshot and the accusations just didn't match up in my opinion. 

As someone with Jewish (and Ukranian FWIW) heritage, my antisemitism meter is pretty sensitive.  Did I miss someone accusing a professor of antisemitism for saying the same thing? 

[Anastasis 23,464]

17 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I disagree.  While recent polls suggest a majority of both Palestinians and Israelis oppose a two state solution and a decline in the percentage of those supporting one, there is still a significant minority of support (anywhere from 35-40 something percent of from what I was able to google).   

A diplomatic solution can be achieved.  However, it may take the loss and destruction of many more lives before enough support for one develops.

 

Well, the intents and support of the Palestinian and Israeli people mean about as much as the public opinion polls of Americans do when it comes to political reality. Probably even less actually.

[DDD Dad 14,330]

4 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Well, the intents and support of the Palestinian and Israeli people mean about as much as the public opinion polls of Americans do when it comes to political reality. Probably even less actually.

Until they do mean something.  I guess I'm just not as fatalistic in my perspective on this.  I'm not saying I think it will necessarily happen, I'm just saying that I disagree that it cannot ever happen, which is what I took from your comment.  

[Anastasis 23,464]

2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

Until they do mean something.  I guess I'm just not as fatalistic in my perspective on this.  I'm not saying I think it will necessarily happen, I'm just saying that I disagree that it cannot ever happen, which is what I took from your comment.  

As my granny use to say, wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which ones fills up first. I see no reason to be anything other than fatalistic wrt the current political reality. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

50 minutes ago, Satchel said:

You may be correct, but if true, there will never be peace in ME.

Agreed. 

[Nivek 16,923]

1 hour ago, bolverk said:

I shared the link because it's what the UN itself counts. You were calling into question the sourcing of the others, so I gave you data from another source, which also shows a rise in Palestinian civilian deaths at the hands of settlers. The upside to it is that it describes a clear methodology.

 

In your previous posts, you seem to maintain that the violence is a one-way street. I've been trying to demonstrate over the past couple of days (with multiple articles and links) that it's clearly not the case.

Here's another good read about shit going on in the West Bank if you're interested:   

Cigarette Burns, Beatings, Attempted Sexual Assault: Settlers and Soldiers Abused Palestinians
A week after being assaulted in Wadi as-Seeq, Palestinians and Israeli activists struggle to recover – and accuse an army unit of ‘hilltop youth’ and settlers. The army has removed the commanding officer of the unit and opened an investigation

The abuse lasted almost a whole day. Soldiers and settlers detained and handcuffed three Palestinians from the West Bank village Wadi as-Seeq, and for hours, according to the Palestinians, they were severely beaten, stripped to their underwear, and photographed handcuffed, in their underwear. Their captors urinated on two of them and extinguished burning cigarettes on them. There was even an attempt to penetrate one of them with an object.

At the same time, soldiers and settlers arrested leftist Israeli activists who were present, including a minor, cuffed them, threatened to kill them, and detained them for hours. Some of the activists were beaten. The activists say that in addition to the presence of people in uniform, at some point a young settler in civilian clothes was put in charge of guarding them.
The Israelis were released after three hours. The Palestinians were only released in the evening by Civil Administration officers, and were taken to a hospital in Ramallah. Both groups were extensively robbed, including cash and a car.

The events occurred on Thursday over a week ago, October 12. The soldiers were from the Desert Frontier unit (“Sfar Hamidbar”), which was established a few years ago and recruits “hilltop youth,” radical, often violent settler youth from illegal outposts in military service, particularly choosing youth from the farming outposts that have become prevalent in the West Bank.

No paywall link for the rest: https://archive.ph/AN5xM#selection-703.0-710.0

The UN refused to condemn the attacks.  The UN condemned Israel's retaliation.    While we want the UN to be a pillar of global politics and humanity, sometimes they elect China, and Iran to lead the human rights cause.   So, let's exercise some caution around them.    

The issue with the settlers and the WB is not a new one.  There have been communities in those regions going back to the 1920s that were run off due to attacks.  So in some cases the settlers justify it as a return to their own lands.  This is also a complicated issue.  From what I can tell, they seem to be a harder group of people, who can be quite shitty to the Palestinians, but are also targeted and attacked by them in kind.   The ICC doesn't recognize their right to hold the land, but Israel does to some extent.  Israel seems to point to one Arab settlement as some justification as well (but it sounds like it is mostly poor college kids), but I take it this is just a prop. piece.  The report you listed above is clearly of limited value.  There is so much context missing that I can't seem to understand the point of it.  Which is why I asked for context.  

You are right that I don't point out individual attacks.  I generally have no interest in them, they are awful and caused a lot of pain to people and rage for others.   But that doesn't mean I do not acknowledge they exist.  So let's not misrepresent one another.   But I also do not pretend onside is pure as the driven snow and you won't find any post of mine attesting to that.  In short, I prefer to look at it from a political/macro scale, not singling out individual misdeeds.  What I do say is that Israel as a nation, has greater interest in peace and they have worked in that direction.  Even the hardliners like Netanyahu agreed to honor those accords.  Netanyahu was also working on agreements with other nations.   So there is evidence they can work with others.  Heck they are still partners with Egypt.   

I asked this question multiple times why did Egypt also create a buffer zone?  

[Anastasis 23,464]

@Nivek, B'TSELEM is a well resourced group with observers in the WB and Gaza. They are not a Hamas mouthpiece. You might consider spending some time on their website reviewing their documentation of what has been taking place for decades in the OT. https://www.btselem.org/

Edited November 1, 2023 by Anastasis

[Welshy 907]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

Israel will never allow there to be a functional and sovereign palestinian state. Vaporize Hamas, shit vaporize all the islamists or swap them out with secular or christian palestinians, doesn't matter. There will never be a palestinian state that is allowed to operate within the area now occupied by Israel. 

My solution is to give the Israelis Mexico. What could go wrong?  

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

2 minutes ago, Welshy said:

My solution is to give the Israelis Mexico. What could go wrong?  

Tacos with hummus. Gotta think it through. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

5 minutes ago, Welshy said:

My solution is to give the Israelis Mexico. What could go wrong?  

Germany might be more appropriate. But that offends certain European sensibilities.

[Anastasis 23,464]

6 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Tacos with hummus. Gotta think it through. 

The merging of the cultures prior gave us tacos al pastor, so lets not be so dismissive. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

Just now, Anastasis said:

The merging of the cultures prior gave us tacos al pastor, so lets not be so dismissive. 

You mean the moor invasion of Spain and then the conquest of Mexico? And Al Pastor does not go with Hummus. Kafta, sure. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

You mean the moor invasion of Spain and then the conquest of Mexico? And Al Pastor does not go with Hummus. Kafta, sure. 

The merging of the cuisine of the levant with that of Mexico. Al Pastor is the result of the influence of maronite lebanese immigration to mexico. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

The merging of the cuisine of the levant with that of Mexico. Al Pastor is the result of the influence of maronite lebanese immigration to mexico. 

Which came via Spain. So what does Al Pastor mean? And the Maronites came a lot later. They did not bring Spanish with them. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Which came via Spain. So what does Al Pastor mean? And the Maronites came a lot later. They did not bring Spanish with them. 

But they brought shwarma, which became al pastor. 

13 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

And Al Pastor does not go with Hummus. Kafta, sure. 

Both go better with a side of lebneh, the latter with lebneh and cucumbers in particular. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

Do not agree. And you are telling me the Aztecs, Pipils, Lempas did not know hot to grill meat? Come on man. Have you ever been to Central America? 

I would say they go better with Cevap but I am biased. 

[DDD Dad 14,330]

Food talk in the cloak room not going away. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

Do not agree. And you are telling me the Aztecs, Pipils, Lempas did not know hot to grill meat? Come on man. Have you ever been to Central America? 

I would say they go better with Cevap but I am biased. 

I don't know anything about Aztecs grilling meat. I am sure they were great, and would not try to disparage. But I do know a bit I think about vertically and horizontally oriented rotisserie production of various meat products. If only our world could find a way to celebrate the mergers of the best of cultures, food, music, drink, and dance, but our race is dead set on fighting over the parcels of dirt and resources.  

[Anastasis 23,464]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

Food talk in the cloak room not going away. 

There will be no peace in the middle east until we can sit down and break bread and roast a beast. I mean, I vehemently disagree with their takes on shellfish and pork, but there is lots of common ground that can be found. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

1 minute ago, Anastasis said:

I don't know anything about Aztecs grilling meat. I am sure they were great, and would not try to disparage. But I do know a bit I think about vertically and horizontally oriented rotisserie production of various meat products. If only our world could find a way to celebrate the mergers of the best of cultures, food, music, drink, and dance, but our race is dead set on fighting over the parcels of dirt and resources.  

See, I do. I grew up there. And lived for over 15 years in Muslim countries. The Kebab is not an invention, it is a simple way of cooking shit. 

Agree about land and resources. 

@DDD Dad show pics. 

2 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

There will be no peace in the middle east until we can sit down and break bread and roast a beast. I mean, I vehemently disagree with their takes on shellfish and pork, but there is lots of common ground that can be found. 

Damn, now I want Kafta.  

[Anastasis 23,464]

 

5 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

The Kebab is not an invention, it is a simple way of cooking shit. 

 

This is a fun exchange, but nobody serious debates that al pastor is not the result of maronite/lebanase immigration to mexico, and a merging of the shwarma brought with them with mexican flavor profile. 

[DDD Dad 14,330]

12 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

 

@DDD Dad show pics. 

 

Pics of what?

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

1 minute ago, DDD Dad said:

Pics of what?

Triple D's..... 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

8 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

 

 

This is a fun exchange, but nobody serious debates that al pastor is not the result of maronite/lebanase immigration to mexico, and a merging of the shwarma brought with them with mexican flavor profile. 

Then what ya wanna debate? Bored and don't care who wins the world series. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

4 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Then what ya wanna debate? Bored and don't care who wins the world series. 

Adolis Garcia should be sent to Gaza to ride it out. 

[DDD Dad 14,330]

7 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Triple D's..... 

I suspect those D’s aren’t what you think they are. (Hint, think Delta)

Edited November 2, 2023 by DDD Dad

[David Dennison 18,851]

3 hours ago, Anastasis said:

Israel will never allow there to be a functional and sovereign palestinian state. Vaporize Hamas, shit vaporize all the islamists or swap them out with secular or christian palestinians, doesn't matter. There will never be a palestinian state that is allowed to operate within the area now occupied by Israel. 

There would be if the United States said so.

[Anastasis 23,464]

Just now, David Dennison said:

There would be if the United States said so.

Don't make me repeat myself. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

8 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

I suspect those D’s aren’t what you think they are. (Hint, think Delta)

Um, that is what I was thinking about. 

 

And yes, if we said make it happen, 2 of the 4 involved parties would listen. Hamas and Hezbollah would not. 

[Brian Fantana 6,682]

1 hour ago, Nivek said:

The UN refused to condemn the attacks.  The UN condemned Israel's retaliation.    While we want the UN to be a pillar of global politics and humanity, sometimes they elect China, and Iran to lead the human rights cause.   So, let's exercise some caution around them.   

Look, I'm no big fan of the UN, but when we're parroting Western media's talking points here, maybe we dig a little bit deeper.

Everyone screams about the rejected amendment but nobody says a fuckin word about this little incident that happened what, 10 days before that, when the security council was actually trying to do that.

https://www.courthousenews.com/us-vetoes-un-resolution-condemning-hamas-attacks-on-israel-and-all-violence-against-civilians/

[DDD Dad 14,330]

26 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Um, that is what I was thinking about. 

Okay. 
 

[Anastasis 23,464]

17 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Look, I'm no big fan of the UN, but when we're parroting Western media's talking points here, maybe we dig a little bit deeper.

Too much to ask 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

24 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Too much to ask 

Yep, let's ask the folks in Kigali and Sarajevo. 

[Anastasis 23,464]

2 minutes ago, InkaUtexas said:

Yep, let's ask the folks in Kigali and Sarajevo. 

And Baghdad and Tripoli. 

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

Just now, Anastasis said:

And Baghdad and Tripoli. 

And Myanmar and Kabul (in 1979). 

[Anastasis 23,464]

Seems to be a pattern that we might be able to generalize from. 

[F250 28,764]

1 hour ago, Anastasis said:

The merging of the cultures prior gave us tacos al pastor, so lets not be so dismissive. 

Tacos al pastor y Selma Hayek.

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

3 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

Seems to be a pattern that we might be able to generalize from. 

That and we both like Shwarma. 

[hayden_horn 11,362]

i once had shwarma wrapped in a slice of pepperoni pizza at 3am in Amsterdam. Do i blame the israelis or Palestinians for that bit of fucking brilliance? 

[DDD Dad 14,330]

1 minute ago, InkaUtexas said:

That and we both like Shwarma. 

Who doesn’t?

[InkaUtexas 25,875]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

i once had shwarma wrapped in a slice of pepperoni pizza at 3am in Amsterdam. Do i blame the israelis or Palestinians for that bit of fucking brilliance? 

Near Central station? I think I might have been there. Could have been Frankfurt, but I was fucked up. 

[F250 28,764]

1 minute ago, hayden_horn said:

i once she shwarma wrapped in a slice pepperoni pizza at 3am in Amsterdam.

Are you saying that you fucked a slice of pepperoni pizza in Amsterdam?

[Anastasis 23,464]

I would eat shawarma out of Selma’s ass if she asked politely. 

[hayden_horn 11,362]

Just now, InkaUtexas said:

Near Central station? I think I might have been there. Could have been Frankfurt, but I was fucked up. 

like i could even remember that. 

though i wanna say near leidseplein because i and my boss nearly got arrested earlier that evening there for protesting a fight when we shoulda just kept quiet. but they had just ejected a black guy from a bar, he was beaten and drunk on his hands and knees when a bouncer took a running kick at his face. the police told me that i didn't know what had happened and that they told me what happened not the other way around as they arrested the unconscious black guy.

[TexArcher 37,771]

13 minutes ago, Anastasis said:

I would eat shawarma out of Selma’s ass if she asked politely. 

She could yell at me and then call me a piece of shit, and I'd still do it.