Israel

[Brian Fantana 6682]

2 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’ve criticized Bibi’s government on this thread myself. I did say that the (completely unhinged) theory that the Israeli government “let October 7 happen” is super fucking anti-Semitic, and it is, even if you hide behind that “anti-Israel, not Jewish” fig leaf. 

For the record, I do not think they let it happen on purpose. I believe it is a fact that Netanyahu's government effectively props up Hamas in order to use their actions against Gazans, but I do not believe they would sacrifice so many of their own citizens to accomplish that. I think there was maybe some negligence and/or intelligence failures there, but that's not a sinister thing by any means.

[DixonHur 11296]

Just now, 956 Worldwide said:

I’ve criticized Bibi’s government on this thread myself. I did say that the (completely unhinged) theory that the Israeli government “let October 7 happen” is super fucking anti-Semitic, and it is, even if you hide behind that “anti-Israel, not Jewish” fig leaf. 

It's not a "fig leaf", it's a reality.  I'm generally anti-Israel, in the sense that I think it's creation was a huge mistake, but I have nothing against the Jewish people.  

 

[Huckleberry 32850]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I’ve criticized Bibi’s government on this thread myself. I did say that the (completely unhinged) theory that the Israeli government “let October 7 happen” is super fucking anti-Semitic, and it is, even if you hide behind that “anti-Israel, not Jewish” fig leaf. 

How is that antisemitic? (I think it's a stupid theory, for the record) 

There are hoopleheads who think George W. Bush knowingly let 9/11 happen. Is that religious bigotry as well? 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

27 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I think the parallels between the Armenian genocide and the current situation in Gaza are pretty obvious.  The Young Turks thought that the land known as "Turkey" belonged to ethnic Turks and used violence and the threat of violence to force millions of Armenians to relocate to Syria. As they were carrying it out, they denied that they were attempting to kill Armenians and claimed that they were simply resettling them for the safety of the empire and those who deny the Armenian genocide today claim that they only intended to resettle Armenians as a defensive measure, not kill them.

I think there's room for reasonable debate whether what Israel is currently doing qualifies as a genocide as defined by the Geneva convention.  But the only reason I think there's room for debate is that I think there's tensions among Israel's current leadership about the goals of their current actions, and the perpetrator's intent is a central component of genocide as defined by the Geneva convention. I think there's also a pretty good argument to be made that the Geneva convention's definition is insufficient and doesn't cover certain acts of ethnic cleansing that most people would reasonably view as genocide (e.g. the Trail of Tears). But to say it's anti-Semitic to see what Israel is currently carrying out as a genocide is absurd.

There is a lot of room for nuanced talk about intent vs. capabilities.  Regardless of your take on the current Israeli military action in Gaza, one thing is undeniable: Israel has the capability to be exponentially more cruel and explicitly “genocidal” to Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank) if they chose to be.  They are clearly following a type of framework on the acceptable level of civilian vice military casualties, the argument is whether that framework is robust enough and proportionate.  
 

Hamas, on the other hand, has explicitly genocidal intent, it is stated. Hamas has also demonstrated that if given the chance, they will deploy their full capabilities in pursuit of blatantly genocidal aims. This was clearly demonstrated on October 7, if Israel could clearly treat Gazans worse, Hamas clearly gave Israeli citizens the absolute worst they had to offer. 
 

And this element of intent is mostly lost in the leftist neo-Marxist debate where the only moral framework is powerful vs. less powerful which may have some practical application in actually looking for a compromise but far too easily slides in the the morally bankrupt viewpoint of assigning higher or lower moral values to actors simply based on their capabilities. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

How is that antisemitic? (I think it's a stupid theory, for the record) 

There are hoopleheads who think George W. Bush knowingly let 9/11 happen. Is that religious bigotry as well? 

Because context matters and there is a long history and dark of accusing Jews of fabricating or fomenting atrocities against themselves in order to further sinister aims.

I will again tell folks that taking in the propaganda room at the national holocaust museum is a must for any American. 

[statsman 5456]

33 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

Serious question, do you consider people who are anti-Israel to be Anti-Semites?

On a Venn diagram, I expect the anti-Israel circle to be larger and mostly  encompass the anti-Semite circle. 
 
 

[statsman 5456]

Honestly, considering the actions of the Palestinian Fatah and Hamas, from the intifadas, where suicide bombers go into Israel to kill Jews indiscriminately, and the number of rockets fired constantly at Israeli civilian population centers over the last decade plus, I think the Palestinians look more genocidal than the Israelis. 
 
For some Jewish families, from 1933 to now, there have been precious few periods where one asshole or another hasn’t been trying to kill them for being Jewish. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by statsman

[Brisketexan 105083]

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

And this element of intent is mostly lost in the leftist neo-Marxist debate where the only moral framework is powerful vs. less powerful which may have some practical application in actually looking for a compromise but far too easily slides in the the morally bankrupt viewpoint of assigning higher or lower moral values to actors simply based on their capabilities. 

This paragraph is really, really important.

Hamas, as a foundational belief and consistent goal, wants to exterminate the state of Israel, and kill jews wherever they may be found.

As for the Israeli state, where there are ABSOLUTELY some within leadership (particularly current conservative leadership) who want to remove all Palestinians from the levant, there is actual strong difference of opinion within the state leadership itself, with a large part of that apparatus calling for a two-state solution, and doesn't actually require that ANY Palestinians die.

Short version: Hamas's vision of success requires Israel to be extinguished, and every jew to die.  Israel's vision of success actually has some place for a two-state solution.

If the warring parties had equal capabilities (e.g., if Hamas had every tool/weapon Israel has at its disposal) Hamas would have been engaged in a non-stop war of genocide long ago.  If the power was as disproportionate as it is now, but Hamas was the entity with the greater power.....yeah, every single honest person here knows that Israel would have been wiped from existence, and there would be no living jews in the levant (and many more dead jews elsewhere).

Assigning moral values to actors based on their capabilities is some fucking bullshit.  Accounting for it when pushing for compromise solutions makes sense, but putting Israel in the blackest of black hats just because they have more capability is bullshit.  And you know that is true, from a moral standpoint, because you know that if the roles were switched, the only jews left in the levant would be dead bodies.

Which, AGAIN, does not excuse actions of the Israeli state, right now, today, that are criminal (see, e.g., the ongoing and ramped-up bullshittery in the WB).

Edited November 10, 2023 by Brisketexan

[Huckleberry 32850]

8 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Because context matters and there is a long history and dark of accusing Jews of fabricating or fomenting atrocities against themselves in order to further sinister aims.

I will again tell folks that taking in the propaganda room at the national holocaust museum is a must for any American. 

I have. But your logic doesn't follow like you think it does. You are attempting to use a horrific history of suffering and malevolence to then paint every disagreement afterward with the same broad brush. It is intellectually facile at best. 

Some people with that stupid theory might very well want to believe it due to religious bigotry. Guess what? Some of the people in the world who believe the same stupid theory about 9/11 do it because of religious bigotry as well.  However, it is absolutely not necessary to harbor any religious bigotry in order to believe either theory. Your incessant efforts to paint anti-Israeli-government statements as antisemitic only make you seem foolish.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

15 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

It's not a "fig leaf", it's a reality.  I'm generally anti-Israel, in the sense that I think it's creation was a huge mistake, but I have nothing against the Jewish people.  

 

I won’t say that this is automatically anti-Semitic but it’s worth doing an honest self-inventory about which other countries you are “anti” because you believe their creation was a huge mistake.  You do know that virtually every single Arab nation expelled their Jews at basically the same time they were created as ethnostates with a privileged position for Muslims, right?  

If the take is that the Ottomans need to come back I can classify that as eccentric. 

[statsman 5456]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

I have. But your logic doesn't follow like you think it does. You are attempting to use a horrific history of suffering and malevolence to then paint every disagreement afterward with the same broad brush. It is intellectually facile at best. 

Some people with that stupid theory might very well want to believe it due to religious bigotry. Guess what? Some of the people in the world who believe the same stupid theory about 9/11 do it because of religious bigotry as well.  However, it is absolutely not necessary to harbor any religious bigotry in order to believe either theory. Your incessant efforts to paint anti-Israeli-government statements as antisemitic only make you seem foolish.

Huckleberry, do you think “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is anti-Semitic? I do- in that I see the Palestinian groups that promote it ad calling for a one-state, no Jews goal. Do you have a different interpretation?

[Brisketexan 105083]

1 minute ago, 956 Worldwide said:

You do know that virtually every single Arab nation expelled their Jews at basically the same time they were created as ethnostates with a privileged position for Muslims, right?  

You will hear crickets after this.

Jewish ethnostate that does not grant Arab citizens all of the privileges of jewish citizens: a criminal enterprise that must be wiped from the earth.

Muslim ethnostate after ethnostate that killed or expelled functionally all jews: that's just history man, why you gotta bring it up, and man, do the jews EVER stop whining about being persecuted?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I have. But your logic doesn't follow like you think it does. You are attempting to use a horrific history of suffering and malevolence to then paint every disagreement afterward with the same broad brush. It is intellectually facile at best. 

Some people with that stupid theory might very well want to believe it due to religious bigotry. Guess what? Some of the people in the world who believe the same stupid theory about 9/11 do it because of religious bigotry as well.  However, it is absolutely not necessary to harbor any religious bigotry in order to believe either theory. Your incessant efforts to paint anti-Israeli-government statements as antisemitic only make you seem foolish.

No I’m not, if you want to say that the Israeli government is doing crimes by facilitating the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, I’ll tell you that you’re right. 
 

What I am saying is that the narrative above is a historic anti-Semitic narrative and when it’s deployed agains the world’s only Jewish nation, it’s anti-Semitic.  All these old theories and libels are not new, and neither is the substitution of a stand-in for Jew.  It was antisemitism back when it was lobbed against “International Cosmopolitanism.”

And Jews are a people, not just a religion. The intellectual facile bit comes into play when you willfully ignore the history and context that comes with it. In an American context, it’s similar to admitting that while false cries of rape are always harmful and bad, they carry an extra level of malevolence when levied against Black men. Context matters. 

[Huckleberry 32850]

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You will hear crickets after this.

Jewish ethnostate that does not grant Arab citizens all of the privileges of jewish citizens: a criminal enterprise that must be wiped from the earth.

Muslim ethnostate after ethnostate that killed or expelled functionally all jews: that's just history man, why you gotta bring it up, and man, do the jews EVER stop whining about being persecuted?

You got really stupid somewhere along the line, or maybe it's just this topic. Yes those Muslim theocratic ethnostates were and are awful. Why do you think anyone on this forum would disagree? 

[Huckleberry 32850]

5 minutes ago, statsman said:

Huckleberry, do you think “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free” is anti-Semitic? I do- in that I see the Palestinian groups that promote it ad calling for a one-state, no Jews goal. Do you have a different interpretation?

No, that phrase is not inherently antisemitic. I have zero doubt execution of the idea would be, though, if its adherents were afforded the opportunity. Just like Jewish desire for Israel to exist is not inherently bigoted. 

[wildcat09 29348]

19 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

There is a lot of room for nuanced talk about intent vs. capabilities.  Regardless of your take on the current Israeli military action in Gaza, one thing is undeniable: Israel has the capability to be exponentially more cruel and explicitly “genocidal” to Palestinians in Gaza (and the West Bank) if they chose to be.  They are clearly following a type of framework on the acceptable level of civilian vice military casualties, the argument is whether that framework is robust enough and proportionate.  
 

Hamas, on the other hand, has explicitly genocidal intent, it is stated. Hamas has also demonstrated that if given the chance, they will deploy their full capabilities in pursuit of blatantly genocidal aims. This was clearly demonstrated on October 7, if Israel could clearly treat Gazans worse, Hamas clearly gave Israeli citizens the absolute worst they had to offer. 
 

And this element of intent is mostly lost in the leftist neo-Marxist debate where the only moral framework is powerful vs. less powerful which may have some practical application in actually looking for a compromise but far too easily slides in the the morally bankrupt viewpoint of assigning higher or lower moral values to actors simply based on their capabilities. 

I agree with the bolded. As for Hamas' intent, yeah it's absolutely genocidal. I'm not very familiar with the new(ish?) framework of determining proportionate military responses, calculating estimated civilian casualties, etc. and how they balance e.g. Hamas' genocidal intent with its actual capacity, so I can't really speak to that.

 

17 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Because context matters and there is a long history and dark of accusing Jews of fabricating or fomenting atrocities against themselves in order to further sinister aims.

I will again tell folks that taking in the propaganda room at the national holocaust museum is a must for any American. 

Bit of an aside here, but have you been to the Museum of Communism in Prague? That place is fascinating.

[wildcat09 29348]

2 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

No, that phrase is not inherently antisemitic. I have zero doubt execution of the idea would be, though, if its adherents were afforded the opportunity. Just like Jewish desire for Israel to exist is not inherently bigoted. 

There's a painful amount of "Palestine = Hamas" reductionism from people who should know better.

[Brian Fantana 6682]

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

This paragraph is really, really important.

Hamas, as a foundational belief and consistent goal, wants to exterminate the state of Israel, and kill jews wherever they may be found.

As for the Israeli state, where there are ABSOLUTELY some within leadership (particularly current conservative leadership) who want to remove all Palestinians from the levant, there is actual strong difference of opinion within the state leadership itself, with a large part of that apparatus calling for a two-state solution, and doesn't actually require that ANY Palestinians die.

Short version: Hamas's vision of success requires Israel to be extinguished, and every jew to die.  Israel's vision of success actually has some place for a two-state solution.

If the warring parties had equal capabilities (e.g., if Hamas had every tool/weapon Israel has at its disposal) Hamas would have been engaged in a non-stop war of genocide long ago.  If the power was as disproportionate as it is now, but Hamas was the entity with the greater power.....yeah, every single honest person here knows that Israel would have been wiped from existence, and there would be no living jews in the levant (and many more dead jews elsewhere).

Assigning moral values to actors based on their capabilities is some fucking bullshit.  Accounting for it when pushing for compromise solutions makes sense, but putting Israel in the blackest of black hats just because they have more capability is bullshit.  And you know that is true, from a moral standpoint, because you know that if the roles were switched, the only jews left in the levant would be dead bodies.

Which, AGAIN, does not excuse actions of the Israeli state, right now, today, that are criminal (see, e.g., the ongoing and ramped-up bullshittery in the WB).

You're not wrong and a lot of the "leftist, neo-Marxist" rhetoric is super silly, idealistic, and flat out wrong.

My position has always been that a military defeat of Hamas is something that can't really be accomplished short of literally killing every Palestinian in Gaza. Obviously, that would be awful and ultimately counter-productive. I don't think anyone besides the small minority of the most bloodthirsty right-wingers Israel has to offer wants that.

Hamas is many things but first and foremost it's an idea that can't truly be destroyed by simply employing an ever escalating level of violence. the first real step to truly and finally eradicating Hamas is to end the ethnic cleansing, which can only be done by Israel's government itself (really, by America's influence, but lol). When I talk about the power dynamic, that's what I mean. I don't believe Israel is in the wrong by default simply because they are in the more powerful position, that would be insane.

You can kill as many Hamas actors as you want, but in the end, the idea will stay in place until conditions are altered enough for the it to wither and die. Ultimately, it has to be defeated politically to be gone for good.

I hope that reality can ever come to fruition but I am almost as pessimistic as you.

30 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

I will again tell folks that taking in the propaganda room at the national holocaust museum is a must for any American. 

I will absolutely 100% second this. Go there, if you can.

[Brisketexan 105083]

4 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You got really stupid somewhere along the line, or maybe it's just this topic. Yes those Muslim theocratic ethnostates were and are awful. Why do you think anyone on this forum would disagree? 

Because they miss the fucking practical.  By a mile.  If a muslim wants a safe muslim ethnostate to seek refuge in, he has a dozen to choose from.  But jews....well, I guess they don't get one.  Not a single one.

And don't point to Europe as a jewish safe haven.  That's still a bit fucking raw.  Maybe don't point to the US either - we did a fine job of turning away jewish refugees during the holocaust, and are apparently deciding that violent anti-semitism is something we ought to look into doing again, at least among a depressingly significant portion of our population.  Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel.  That is a reality, and being that a shitload of the discussion of this issue just takes that fact right off the table means that we're all just wasting our time.  Jews will never let go of the concept of having a state that is a safe haven for jews.  They'd be suicidal-stupid to do so.

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

[Huckleberry 32850]

3 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

No I’m not, if you want to say that the Israeli government is doing crimes by facilitating the expansion of settlements in the West Bank, I’ll tell you that you’re right. 
 

What I am saying is that the narrative above is a historic anti-Semitic narrative and when it’s deployed agains the world’s only Jewish nation, it’s anti-Semitic.  All these old theories and libels are not new, and neither is the substitution of a stand-in for Jew.  It was antisemitism back when it was lobbed against “International Cosmopolitanism.”

And Jews are a people, not just a religion. The intellectual facile bit comes into play when you willfully ignore the history and context that comes with it. In an American context, it’s similar to admitting that while false cries of rape are always harmful and bad, they carry an extra level of malevolence when levied against Black men. Context matters. 

The more you post the clearer it becomes that the issue is your inability to differentiate between always and sometimes. False rape allegations against black men are not necessarily racist in origin. Frequently? Yes. Always? No. It's the same with accusations of malevolent actions by Israel. 

I did enjoy the irony of the person arguing that things are always black or white with no room for other possibilities confidently asserting that his is the intellectually rigorous position. Certainty is easier than understanding and judgment is easier than curiosity.

[wildcat09 29348]

3 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You're not wrong and a lot of the "leftist, neo-Marxist" rhetoric is super silly, idealistic, and flat out wrong.

My position has always been that a military defeat of Hamas is something that can't really be accomplished short of literally killing every Palestinian in Gaza. Obviously, that would be awful and ultimately counter-productive. I don't think anyone besides the small minority of the most bloodthirsty right-wingers Israel has to offer wants that.

Hamas is many things but first and foremost it's an idea that can't truly be destroyed by simply employing an ever escalating level of violence. the first real step to truly and finally eradicating Hamas is to end the ethnic cleansing, which can only be done by Israel's government itself (really, by America's influence, but lol). When I talk about the power dynamic, that's what I mean. I don't believe Israel is in the wrong by default simply because they are in the more powerful position, that would be insane.

You can kill as many Hamas actors as you want, but in the end, the idea will stay in place until conditions are altered enough for the it to wither and die. Ultimately, it has to be defeated politically to be gone for good.

I hope that reality can ever come to fruition but I am almost as pessimistic as you.

I will absolutely 100% second this. Go there, if you can.

Well, and probably at least half of the Republican party.

[Brian Fantana 6682]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

[wildcat09 29348]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

Because they miss the fucking practical.  By a mile.  If a muslim wants a safe muslim ethnostate to seek refuge in, he has a dozen to choose from.  But jews....well, I guess they don't get one.  Not a single one.

And don't point to Europe as a jewish safe haven.  That's still a bit fucking raw.  Maybe don't point to the US either - we did a fine job of turning away jewish refugees during the holocaust, and are apparently deciding that violent anti-semitism is something we ought to look into doing again, at least among a depressingly significant portion of our population.  Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel.  That is a reality, and being that a shitload of the discussion of this issue just takes that fact right off the table means that we're all just wasting our time.  Jews will never let go of the concept of having a state that is a safe haven for jews.  They'd be suicidal-stupid to do so.

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Well, as statsman pointed out, there's been a whole lot of missiles launched at Israelis for a long time. And that was before their government was completely overtaken by a corrupt band of religious extremists who seem intent on waging an all-out religious war.

I've been alarmed about the growing anti-Semitism here in America for awhile, but I think Jews are still probably on the whole safer here. 

[Brisketexan 105083]

Just now, Brian Fantana said:

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

Nope, I don't mean Palestinians = Hamas.  And you know I don't. 

I DO mean a metric shitton of the "pro-Palestinian" voices, both here and abroad.  When that's what's being chanted at pro-Palestinian march and demonstration after demonstration, it tends to poison the well.

One can be pro-Palestinian, and want the Palestinian people to live safe and secure lives, on land in the levant, and NOT be chanting "from the river to the sea."  Those voices seem rather muted in the overall discussion.

Just now, wildcat09 said:

Well, as statsman pointed out, there's been a whole lot of missiles launched at Israelis for a long time. And that was before their government was completely overtaken by a corrupt band of religious extremists who seem intent on waging an all-out religious war.

I've been alarmed about the growing anti-Semitism here in America for awhile, but I think Jews are still probably on the whole safer here. 

....for now.

That is the coda that follows every statement as to the safety and security of jews, anywhere on earth - "for now."  Millenia of history tell us so.

[956 Worldwide 34705]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

I agree with the bolded. As for Hamas' intent, yeah it's absolutely genocidal. I'm not very familiar with the new(ish?) framework of determining proportionate military responses, calculating estimated civilian casualties, etc. and how they balance e.g. Hamas' genocidal intent with its actual capacity, so I can't really speak to that.

 

Bit of an aside here, but have you been to the Museum of Communism in Prague? That place is fascinating.

There was an interesting article a while back that I can’t find which dove into how the IDF is using a framework similar to the ones NATO uses/used in anti-ISIS and the Iraq War to balance military value against likely civilian impact before authorizing an air strike. It is likely similar but not identical and the key is that the “acceptable” ratio varies: We are more aggressive than the UK which is more aggressive than most Euros and the IDF is surely more aggressive than us.  But there is a framework there. 
 

That museum is OK, it’s interesting but the best museum is the New National Museum’s 20th century history wing.  It’s great but not as well-marketed to visitors. 

[Brian Fantana 6682]

1 minute ago, Brisketexan said:

One can be pro-Palestinian, and want the Palestinian people to live safe and secure lives, on land in the levant, and NOT be chanting "from the river to the sea."  Those voices seem rather muted in the overall discussion.

And yet, those of us who are exactly that are continually accused to being anti-semitic by people you fucking upvote constantly in this thread.

 

2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Nope, I don't mean Palestinians = Hamas.  And you know I don't. 

How else am I supposed to interpret "the other side of the ledger is uniformly for wiping Israel out" ???

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

The more you post the clearer it becomes that the issue is your inability to differentiate between always and sometimes. False rape allegations against black men are not necessarily racist in origin. Frequently? Yes. Always? No. It's the same with accusations of malevolent actions by Israel. 

I did enjoy the irony of the person arguing that things are always black or white with no room for other possibilities confidently asserting that his is the intellectually rigorous position. Certainty is easier than understanding and judgment is easier than curiosity.

Parsing down whether each individual deployment of a historical anti-semitic trope has anti-semetic intent behind it is not a productive path. This is basically “you can’t know what’s in their heart.”  Ok? All I can say is that when people start saying that the Jews or an entity closely affiliated with Jews are faking or fomenting atrocities because they have a secret sinister motive to advance— it sounds pretty fucking anti-Semitic and the people who say it should know better. 
 

Similar vibes: 

 

[Smax 3800]

1 hour ago, DixonHur said:

Is black a country now?

No one is anti Israel and likes jews

['stache 21800]

16 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Because they miss the fucking practical.  By a mile.  If a muslim wants a safe muslim ethnostate to seek refuge in, he has a dozen to choose from.  But jews....well, I guess they don't get one.  Not a single one.

And don't point to Europe as a jewish safe haven.  That's still a bit fucking raw.  Maybe don't point to the US either - we did a fine job of turning away jewish refugees during the holocaust, and are apparently deciding that violent anti-semitism is something we ought to look into doing again, at least among a depressingly significant portion of our population.  Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel.  That is a reality, and being that a shitload of the discussion of this issue just takes that fact right off the table means that we're all just wasting our time.  Jews will never let go of the concept of having a state that is a safe haven for jews.  They'd be suicidal-stupid to do so.

Goddammit, I sympathize with the Palestinians.  I want a two-state solution.  I want Israeli crimes against Palestinians to be punished.  But when the other side of the ledger uniformly ends with "and end the state of Israel, so that jews have no safe place left in this world," it all goes to shit.

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by 'stache

[DixonHur 11296]

13 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Jews don't have ANYWHERE ON EARTH that is an actual refuge....except Israel. 

This might sound insensitive, but so...

Sadly there are lots of groups that fall into this category.  Why is it more important for this particular group of people to have a "refuge" than it is for any of the other displaced peoples of the world?

[Brian Fantana 6682]

2 minutes ago, Smax said:

No one is anti Israel and likes jews

You see what I fuckin mean with this dumb shit @Brisketexan? I mean, this is borderline trolling but still.

[DixonHur 11296]

2 minutes ago, Smax said:

No one is anti Israel and likes jews

I am, so there's at least one of us.

It's really not hard to understand.  Israel is a country...Jews are a religion/race.  

I don't like Iran but I have no issue with Persian people.

[Huckleberry 32850]

5 minutes ago, 956 Worldwide said:

Parsing down whether each individual deployment of a historical anti-semitic trope has anti-semetic intent behind it is not a productive path. This is basically “you can’t know what’s in their heart.”  Ok? All I can say is that when people start saying that the Jews or an entity closely affiliated with Jews are faking or fomenting atrocities because they have a secret sinister motive to advance— it sounds pretty fucking anti-Semitic and the people who say it should know better. 
 

Similar vibes: 

 

You are making your position look weaker with every post you make and don't even realize it. Here you equate opposition to government leaders with using a slur and you think you make a good point. 

The oppressed can and do become the oppressors. Christians were once persecuted and slaughtered. Now in many places around the world they treat others like shit and subject them to second class citizenship (and are trying to do the same again here). Opposition to those efforts is not religious bigotry but in your view it is.  

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

I am, so there's at least one of us.

It's really not hard to understand.  Israel is a country...Jews are a religion/race.  

I don't like Iran but I have no issue with Persian people.

 

So you don't think Israel should exists as a country?

 

2 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

You see what I fuckin mean with this dumb shit @Brisketexan? I mean, this is borderline trolling but still.

 

Fuck you, don't like what I say put me on ignore

[DixonHur 11296]

Just now, Huckleberry said:

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

[DixonHur 11296]

Just now, Smax said:

So you don't think Israel should exists as a country?

It's a bit more nuanced.

I don't think it should have been created, but I recognize that it was and thus think it has the right to exist.

[Huckleberry 32850]

1 minute ago, Smax said:

 

So you don't think Israel should exists as a country?

 

 

Fuck you, don't like what I say put me on ignore

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

[Smax 3800]

5 minutes ago, DixonHur said:

This might sound insensitive, but so...

Sadly there are lots of groups that fall into this category.  Why is it more important for this particular group of people to have a "refuge" than it is for any of the other displaced peoples of the world?

 

 

People who think like you, decided to get together and try kick them out of Israel. Those people got their ass whooped multiple times. We sit here and debate and argue in this forum about a number of topics none of us are experts in. We dish opinions on right and wrong but you know whats right in the world?

Might, might makes right, hate it love it doesn't matter because its what rules the world.

 

You want take Israel land away from them? Good fucking luck, but play and say it happens why stop there. What other of the MANY countries in existence now can we kick out the people and give it to someone else

[956 Worldwide 34705]

10 minutes ago, 'stache said:

Ugh, I really need to avoid this thread. Millions of Jews live safely in the United States and in Europe. You're far more likely to get murdered in an elementary school than a Synagogue in the US. The tiki torch maga anti-Semites seem more like nutless incels than serious threats. Terrorists are just as angry at Americans in general than specifically Jews, hence 9/11 as an attack on America in general, even when support for Israel is their underlying beef. 

If an Israel-Palestine thread prompts you to say that the neo-Nazi torch wavers who sparked a deadly riot aren’t that big of a deal, actually, again—— time for an inventory. 

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, Huckleberry said:

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

Youre conflating the government and the country, why?

[956 Worldwide 34705]

7 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

You are making your position look weaker with every post you make and don't even realize it. Here you equate opposition to government leaders with using a slur and you think you make a good point. 

The oppressed can and do become the oppressors. Christians were once persecuted and slaughtered. Now in many places around the world they treat others like shit and subject them to second class citizenship (and are trying to do the same again here). Opposition to those efforts is not religious bigotry but in your view it is.  

Theocratic ethnostates suck. All of them. 

Dude, I don’t know what to tell you. When you go overseas and hear people say “9/11 was an inside job,” don’t make the incredibly stupid assumption that they are just anti-Bush or anti-Republican or something. They’re anti-Americans, full stop.

“October 7 was provoked or an inside job or is fake” is not legitimate criticism of the Israeli government and you’re being willfully ignorant to pretend like it is. 

[Brian Fantana 6682]

4 minutes ago, Smax said:

 

 

People who think like you, decided to get together and try kick them out of Israel. Those people got their ass whooped multiple times. We sit here and debate and argue in this forum about a number of topics none of us are experts in. We dish opinions on right and wrong but you know whats right in the world?

Might, might makes right, hate it love it doesn't matter because its what rules the world.

 

You want take Israel land away from them? Good fucking luck, but play and say it happens why stop there. What other of the MANY countries in existence now can we kick out the people and give it to someone else

This is the worst post in this thread by a mile. I feel like someone just took a nail gun to my frontal lobe. Holy shit.

3 minutes ago, Smax said:

Youre conflating the government and the country, why?

 

17 minutes ago, Smax said:

No one is anti Israel and likes jews

This you?

[DixonHur 11296]

8 minutes ago, Smax said:

You want take Israel land away from them?

Please point to the post where I said anything like that?

You're a disingenuous poster

[Smax 3800]

1 minute ago, DixonHur said:

Please point to the post where I said anything like that?

You're a disingenuous poster

 

There's a question mark there

 

You're an illiterate poster

[Willfully Horn 8002]

I’ve tried to find reports of Palestinians protesting attacks on, or in support of, Jews, but have failed to find them. If someone could direct me to these reports, I’d be grateful.

Conversely, there are myriad reports of Jewish protests condemning attacks on, and in support of, Palestinians.

[DixonHur 11296]

1 minute ago, Smax said:

 

There's a question mark there

 

You're an illiterate poster

Ah the disingenuousness continues.  You know damn well you were asking a rhetorical question.

[DDD Dad 14331]

40 minutes ago, Brian Fantana said:

Whoops, here you go with the Palestinians = Hamas shit, yet again. Stop it.

While Palestinians does not equal Hamas completely, it gets really complicated trying to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians generally.  It's been many years ago, but they were elected into power by a majority of the Palestinian voters.  They still, even today, garner considerable support (regardless of how misguided it may be) from a substantial portion of Gaza's population.  Many Palestinians want peace and nothing to do with Hamas' violence.  Yet, many support them, shelter and hide them, and seem to be accepting of having their military/terroristic command and control centers buried beneath or inside of civilian hospitals, places of worship, etc.

In contrast, I think it is much easier to distinguish the Israeli government (which, by the way, has members of the Knesset who are Palestinian Israeli citizens) from Jews and Israelis of all faiths and ethnicities.

Edited November 10, 2023 by DDD Dad

[Hermanator 7032]

4 hours ago, 'stache said:

Americans were overwhelmingly in support of efforts to root out terrorism in the middle east after 9/11. Public support faded when it became full scale wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. It's obviously difficult to root out individuals and terrorist cells as opposed to flighting state armies, but that's the reality of the situation in that region and should be waged as such, in my opinion.

Waged for how long? And how severely? 

No matter which way Netanyahu's government goes it'll suffer an image crisis. Pull back and look weak. Keep going and look barbaric. That's the catch 22. Israel isn't the US. They don't have the stranglehold the US had on global commerce in 2001 to be in a position to alienate everyone. The US has taken great damage to it's image and alliances with it's actions post 9/11 and Israel risks taking greater damage if it tries to go this alone and isolates itself.

Besides, how many examples do we need of heavy handed tactics making things worse? The rise of Hezbollah, ISIS, etc all coming from this type of situation. Even if they manage to root out and deal a ton of damage to Hamas over the coming months/years the nature of the destruction will just create new enemies. It never ends. 

[956 Worldwide 34705]

14 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

It's more that it's just a really stupid thing to say if that makes you feel better. There are millions of Jews who hate the current Israeli government. So yes, there are lots of people who love Jews but are against Israel. Such as, you know, lots of Jews themselves. 

Lots of people on one of the two sides of the debate here thinks all Jewish people are the same. Interestingly it's not the side opposed to Israel's actions. 

Hundreds of millions of Americans hated the Trump administration, me included, and I would never in a million years say “I’m against America.”  Neither would most of the others who worked like hell to get him out. 
 

A good test of whether it’s legitimate criticism or just bigoted conspiracy theory is to sub in entirely different political actors and see if the point changes or likely line of attack changes at all. Such it is with the extremely bigoted accusation that 9/11 was an inside job or that Israel allowed 10/7 to happen to themselves. 

[wildcat09 29348]

2 minutes ago, DDD Dad said:

While Palestinians does not equal Hamas completely, it gets really complicated trying to distinguish Hamas from Palestinians generally.  It's been many years ago, but they were elected into power by a majority of the Palestinian voters.  They still, even today, garner considerable support (regardless of how misguided it may be) from a substantial portion of Gaza's population.  Many Palestinians want peace and nothing to do with Hamas' violence.  Yet, many support them, shelter and hide them, and seem to be accepting of having their military/terroristic command and control centers buried beneath or inside of civilian hospitals, places of worship, etc.

In contrast, I think it is much easier to distinguish the Israeli government (which, by the way, has members of the Knesset who are Palestinian Israeli citizens) from Jews and Israelis of all faiths and ethnicities.

Hamas was never elected by a majority of Palestinians. And when they were elected, roughly half of the Palestinians alive today either weren’t alive or were children well below voting age.