Supreme Court conservatives appear ready to OK Trump’s census citizenship question

[David Dennison 18658]

2 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Ironically because of slave states.

And also because of the whole no taxation without representation thing.

Non-citizens, documented and otherwise, pay taxes.

[FondrenRoad 4378]

I would think that in 2020, we could get a fairly accurate count without sending out forms. 

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

It's kind of funny.  Take away all the value judgments, or most of them, and here's what you have.

The Department of Commerce is charged by Congress with carrying out the census.  Art. 1, s. 2, United States Constitution; Title 13, United States Code.  The Secretary of Commerce "shall prepare questionnaires, and shall determine the inquiries, and the number, form, and subdivisions thereof, for the statistics, surveys, and censuses provided for in this title."  The DoC generates its own rules and regulations for the Census at Chapter 1, Title 15, Code of Federal Regulations.

The question then is what kind of question can the DoC put in the census given the above framework?  Seems simple, pretty straightforward.

But then you inject all the politics and it goes bananas.

If there were no judicial review, there would be a simple, straightforward answer that most of you that don't like judicial review wouldn't like.

 

So Auer Deference could come into play? Ironic that it is also being debated by SCOTUS at the moment.

[TxTower 650]

And also because of the whole no taxation without representation thing.
Non-citizens, documented and otherwise, pay taxes.

You mean only sales taxes right?
Undocumented immigrants do not file income taxes.

[hayden_horn 11360]

22 minutes ago, TxTower said:

Thanks for the thoughtful response Hayden.
I do realize there is the possibility that my beloved Texas could suffer in terms of representation and funding due to under reporting of non-citizens but as you said they can still fill it out without even answering the question. I still question fundamentally if the purpose of the census is used to determine representation and funding for our citizens, why it should extend to non-citizens?

If the only real non-political answer is “well they’re here so we just have to deal with it” that to me anyways is disappointing.

well, they are here, and we do have to deal with it.

i knocked on a lot of doors where the respondent was translating through their very fluent english speaking children, who were obviously american citizens. their parents? probably not. maybe illegal, maybe not.

but let's think for a minute about your first question. let's say there is a venezuelan man, here legally, married to a white woman with a couple kids watches the news and sees how the administration treats foreign nationals. let's say he fled maduro's regime, and would very much not like to go back "home".

what is his incentive to fill out the form? what is his incentive to answer the door when the inevitable and very dogged census workers keep coming to close out his address? especially if he feels the government is going to use his answers against him. and let's be honest, the intent of the administration is very fucking clear. they want to intimidate. they want to turn their base against non-citizens, and they are gaslighting that non-citizens must be here illegally. they purposefully conflate their rhetoric on these points.

however, that non-citizen deserves representation. we govern for that person just as much as for you, and we offer them a path to citizenship, hard as it is. that non-citizen also pays taxes, sales and federal and property. 

this is the same thing around sanctuary cities. we have to be pragmatic. ask any police chief with a very diverse city: minority reporting of crime and cooperation with investigation is hard enough without people worrying about ICE detainers and the like.

hell, we have one family friend that i assumed was a US citizen get popped for a dwi. hard worker, contributor to society, was just brought here as an infant. she's got a son, who is a citizen. i think she's actually got a green card, but nevertheless she got to cool her heels in county until that ICE detainer was resolved. almost lost her job, and she's lucky she had a real support system for her son while that whole thing got sorted. i realize a significant number of our population would like to see her deported. she doesn't even speak spanish. 

it's complicated. this only further complicates things, and it is entirely intentional.

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, TxTower said:

You mean only sales taxes right?
Undocumented immigrants do not file income taxes.

their employers frequently withhold. and they never file for a return. many absolutely pay income tax.

[Johnny Sack 8397]

2 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

their employers frequently withhold. and they never file for a return. many absolutely pay income tax.

You don't think they're smart enough to game exemptions?

[TxTower 650]

their employers frequently withhold. and they never file for a return. many absolutely pay income tax.

So their employers withhold to keep the IRS off their backs but don’t worry about ICE?
That’s fucked up.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

If I were a non-citizen (legal or illegal) I don't think I would complete an unnecessary document asking me about my citizenship.  If I were illegal, I would probably not want to complete it regardless of the question.  

I'm a citizen and I don't want to answer any question. The mail service at my house is shoddy. I doubt that a mailed questionnaire would actually make it to my hands. Prove that I received it.

[DigglerontheHoof 21063]

Yep, I'll just refuse to answer the question.

[TwiceHorn 31280]

32 minutes ago, Cheeseweasel said:

So Auer Deference could come into play? Ironic that it is also being debated by SCOTUS at the moment.

Yeah, there's some administrative deference questions in it, which Gorsuch, among others, is on record for curtailing.  I haven't dug deep into it.

These things that are administratively "proper" but have sub rosa bad intentions pose quite the legal conundrum.

[hayden_horn 11360]

25 minutes ago, Johnny Sack said:

You don't think they're smart enough to game exemptions?

who? the employer or the employee?

18 minutes ago, TxTower said:

So their employers withhold to keep the IRS off their backs but don’t worry about ICE?
That’s fucked up.

here's the thing. in order to withhold, the undocumented person needs a SSN. frequently, they obtain one, so that they can get a paycheck. not every illegal does cash only home depot parking lot jobs. and yes, it's fucked up, but it's also complicated. we need the dishwashers and the fruit pickers and the sheetrock guys and the painters. we don't REALLY want to solve this problem, because it would affect so many industries.

7 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

If I were a non-citizen (legal or illegal) I don't think I would complete an unnecessary document asking me about my citizenship.  If I were illegal, I would probably not want to complete it regardless of the question.  

I'm a citizen and I don't want to answer any question. The mail service at my house is shoddy. I doubt that a mailed questionnaire would actually make it to my hands. Prove that I received it.

someone will come knocking. be nice to them. they are just trying to do a job. i can't even scratch the surface of stories of how badly i could be treated at people's doors. one trucker guy who lived in a trailer was about 7' tall and i thought he was going to crush me like a bug at one point.

3 minutes ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

Yep, I'll just refuse to answer the question.

and that's what will likely happen. which renders the question largely moot. but where yall won't answer the question, it will cause many non-citizens to simply refuse to report anything.

[TxTower 650]

If I were a non-citizen (legal or illegal) I don't think I would complete an unnecessary document asking me about my citizenship.  If I were illegal, I would probably not want to complete it regardless of the question.  

You probably hit on something here. Does it really matter if illegals are likely not to respond anyway - citizenship question or no?

[Jive Turkey 12568]

1 hour ago, TwiceHorn said:

There was no real conception of US citizenship at the time of the Constitution, or at least none articulated in it.  Accordingly, no one was here illegally.

Correct.  But the concept of citizenship certainly existed in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment recognizes that all “persons” born in the U.S. “are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

However, section 2 states:

”Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed.”

Clearly, the drafters knew the difference between “citizens” and “persons.”  And they specifically used the word “persons” instead of “citizens” with respect to the counting of people to determine how representatives should be apportioned.

So the plain language argument should be that you count persons, not citizens, and adding a question about citizenship is antithetical to the 14th Amendment.

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Jive Turkey

[hayden_horn 11360]

one last thought, as a guy who knocked on non-respondents doors to gather information, having to ask that citizen question would make an already uncomfortable conversation even more so.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

It makes absolute sense that reps and other benefits are based on people and not citizens.  Say that 500K non-citizens moved to Wyoming tomorrow because a few employers created a need for a tremendous number of employees.  Wyoming would be overrun by doubling their population overnight.  Why shouldn't they receive their fair share of fed govt services.

 

[Js1 85110]

14 minutes ago, TxTower said:

 

You probably hit on something here. Does it really matter if illegals are likely not to respond anyway - citizenship question or no?

 

Yes, because federal dollars and accurate representation.  End of story. 

[jimmyjazz 45558]

2 hours ago, wildcat09 said:

Love to see original intent proponents switch to "oh that term is antiquated so let's invent another standard to use" when it suits their politics. 

No shit.  2A!  Militia!  Freedumb!!!

[TxTower 650]

one last thought, as a guy who knocked on non-respondents doors to gather information, having to ask that citizen question would make an already uncomfortable conversation even more so.

So if someone doesn’t respond to the census questionnaire that shows up in their mailbox, someone is sent to their door to ask census questions?
Does this happen to all non-respondents?

[jimmyjazz 45558]

1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

I would think that in 2020, we could get a fairly accurate count without sending out forms. 

Well sure, but TrumpCo doesn't want an accurate count.

[David Dennison 18658]

1 hour ago, TxTower said:

You mean only sales taxes right?
Undocumented immigrants do not file income taxes.

Undocumented immigrants absolutely pay taxes.

And in the past 20 years, the Internal Revenue Service has made it easier for workers to pay taxes if they don’t have a social security number (or a fake one, for that matter). Workers who are paid illegally in cash can still pay their taxes with an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN), filing a return just like any other taxpayer; having a history of paying taxes can be an important step in securing legal status. In 2010, about 3 million people paid over $870 million in income taxes using an ITIN, and according to the IRS, ITIN filers pay $9 billion in payroll taxes annually. (The IRS says it does not share ITIN information with immigration authorities.)

Edited April 24, 2019 by David Dennison

[hayden_horn 11360]

1 minute ago, TxTower said:

So if someone doesn’t respond to the census questionnaire that shows up in their mailbox, someone is sent to their door to ask census questions?
Does this happen to all non-respondents?

yep. and they'll keep coming until they get some kind of answer.

i learned a whole lot about south austin. trailer parks i didn't know were there. pockets of homeless people, where they live when they aren't on street corners. hell, east of 35 off stassney, someone had built a cottage in the woods, a bona fide cottage.

[TwiceHorn 31280]

37 minutes ago, Jive Turkey said:

Correct.  But the concept of citizenship certainly existed in 1868 when the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified. Section 1 of the 14th Amendment recognizes that all “persons” born in the U.S. “are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”

However, section 2 states:

”Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed.”

Clearly, the drafters knew the difference between “citizens” and “persons.”  And they specifically used the word “persons” instead of “citizens” with respect to the counting of people to determine how representatives should be apportioned.

So the plain language argument should be that you count persons, not citizens, and adding a question about citizenship is antithetical to the 14th Amendment.

 

The drafters of the 14th Amendment, certainly.  But the argument extends all the way back.  Representation was based on number of persons, not citizens, and not voters, because women counted and slaves counted 3/5 and couldn't vote.

Edited April 24, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Gil Bang 25898]

1 hour ago, TxTower said:

You mean only sales taxes right?
Undocumented immigrants do not file income taxes.

You. believe that renters don't pay property taxes as part of the rent?

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

Undocumented immigrants absolutely pay taxes.

a very important part of the article for those who won't click the link:

Quote

The Social Security system has grown increasingly reliant on this stream of revenue, particularly as aging Baby Boomers start to retire. Stephen Goss, the chief actuary of the Social Security Administration, estimates that about 1.8 million immigrants were working with fake or stolen Social Security cards in 2010, and he expects that number to reach 3.4 million by 2040. He calculates that undocumented immigrants paid $13 billion into the retirement trust fund that year, and only got about $1 billion in benefits. “We estimate that earnings by unauthorized immigrants result in a net positive effect on Social Security financial status generally, and that this effect contributed roughly $12 billion to the cash flow of the program for 2010,” Gross concluded in a 2013 review of the impact of undocumented immigrants on Social Security.

they are here, and we kind of have to deal with it. but we don't want to deal with it, because of the benefits to most americans. seriously. we don't actually want to solve this problem, or we'll break significant parts of our economy.

Edited April 24, 2019 by hayden_horn

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

we need an accurate account of citizens in our country.  We need an accurate account of the number of illegal immigrants in our country.  Someone refusing to comply with the census should not be reason to not seek transparency.  The tax paying citizens deserve to know the truth and the actual cost.

 

[TwiceHorn 31280]

3 minutes ago, hayden_horn said:

a very important part of the article for those who won't click the link:

they are here, and we kind of have to deal with it. but we don't want to deal with it, because of the benefits to most americans. seriously. we don't actually want to solve this problem, or we'll break significant parts of our economy.

Goes both ways though.  That's 10% of undocumented.  Fix it and maybe we get all 12 million.  And also have to pay benefits.

[hayden_horn 11360]

Just now, TwiceHorn said:

Goes both ways though.  That's 10% of undocumented.  Fix it and maybe we get all 12 million.  And also have to pay benefits.

granted. i don't think that refutes my post, but i agree.

fun fact: hispanics usually DO NOT want to be called white. frequently they would self-identify as "guatemalan," or "mexican" for race: "some other race," whereas the census considers hispanic as ethnicity, not a race.

[jimmyjazz 45558]

3 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

we need an accurate account of citizens in our country.  We need an accurate account of the number of illegal immigrants in our country. 

Predictably, you left out a group.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

27 minutes ago, Js1 said:

Yes, because federal dollars and accurate representation.  End of story. 

Well, why should California be rewarded for breaking US immigration laws with MORE voting power?  They have the fastest receding middle class that they are rapidly replacing with illegal immigrants.  Those tax payers forced to leave by the repressive government are disenfranchised when CA is allowed to simply replace them with no consequence.  The market doesn't have a chance to properly correct, and the income divide expands.

The amount of people who suddenly don't answer can be compared to local population studies and numbers to get a more accurate representation of the illegal population.

[TwiceHorn 31280]

The odd thing to me in all this is that it seems like undocumented that are afraid to answer the census dgaf about what it asks, they just don't want to be on record, period.

[ChickenSandwich 9798]

1 hour ago, TxTower said:

You mean only sales taxes right?
Undocumented immigrants do not file income taxes.

The lack of Citizenship question and verification has lead to approximate 25,000 undocumented immigrants receiving Federal Housing Assistance through the HUD.  I would rather American Homeless and Vets be given priority with these dollars.  The FEAR of asking the question hurt the American Tax payer.  The time has come to stop pretending it isn't a HUGE problem and get the numbers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/us/politics/hud-public-housing-immigrants.html

[Cheeseweasel 26437]

7 minutes ago, jimmyjazz said:

Predictably, you left out a group.

Aggies?

[David Dennison 18658]

6 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

The lack of Citizenship question and verification has lead to approximate 25,000 undocumented immigrants receiving Federal Housing Assistance through the HUD.  I would rather American Homeless and Vets be given priority with these dollars.  The FEAR of asking the question hurt the American Tax payer.  The time has come to stop pretending it isn't a HUGE problem and get the numbers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/17/us/politics/hud-public-housing-immigrants.html

25,000 is not a huge problem in a country of 300 million.

[Laxtonto 11933]

19 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

The drafters of the 14th Amendment, certainly.  But the argument extends all the way back.  Representation was based on number of persons, not citizens, and not voters, because women counted and slaves counted 3/5 and couldn't vote.

But Indians didn’t count  back then.... why? Was it the it the idea that native Americans were their own tribe and therefore had citizenship tied to another institution?  Was it that Native Americans had no ties to the US and were migratory? Was it because Native Americans didn’t fit any of the boxes and they punted the issue? 

That is the argument people need to try and rectify if we are going to dive into word smithing of who is eligible to be counted based on what is written back then.

If Native Americans were excluded because they held allegiance, ie were them beholden to another entity, to their tribe and not the US, would that not require those counted by the census not to beholden to another entity, such as citizenship to another country while not holding US citizenship? That argument would support adding the question.

 

If there is no way to circumvent the Native American exclusion argument how can we  then say that parts of this should be interpreted one way, but let’s not worry about this other part.

 

 

[hayden_horn 11360]

2 minutes ago, Laxtonto said:

But Indians didn’t count  back then.... why? Was it the it the idea that native Americans were their own tribe and therefore had citizenship tied to another institution?  Was it that Native Americans had no ties to the US and were migratory? Was it because Native Americans didn’t fit any of the boxes and they punted the issue? 

That is the argument people need to try and rectify if we are going to dive into word smithing of who is eligible to be counted based on what is written back then.

If Native Americans were excluded because they held allegiance, ie were them beholden to another entity, to their tribe and not the US, would that not require those counted by the census not to beholden to another entity, such as citizenship to another country while not holding US citizenship? That argument would support adding the question.

 

If there is no way to circumvent the Native American exclusion argument how can we  then say that parts of this should be interpreted one way, but let’s not worry about this other part.

 

 

yeah, so the important part of that exclusion is the "not taxed" part of it. that means sovereign tribes living on the reservation or on their traditional unsettled lands.

but 1868 was still a crazy time of indian wars. custer was still a thing, battling with the cheyenne. little big horn was a decade later, so the exclusion probably also had plenty to do with the fact that indians were persona non grata during this time period, unless they joined america and paid taxes.

[jimmyjazz 45558]

35 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

25,000 is not a huge problem in a country of 300 million.

It's not even a huge problem compared to, say, the population of Puerto Rico (3.4M).  Ahem.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

Let’s talk about this bullshit about the upcoming census that some idiots in the Iranian-American community want to do and label us under a new category that ISN’T WHITE. I have sent blistering letters to the Iranian groups behind this bullshit. I am glad that it hasn’t been approved and I had a hand in doing so with my letter writing. Remember, I was the one with my letter writing crew that got the Titans games off the air on KEYE in favor of the Texans. I will ALWAYS select white as my race and always will. Idiots want us to grab on the minority POC gravy train. 

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-census-middle-east-north-africa-race/

Edited April 24, 2019 by Iconoclast Texan

[CooterBrown 17911]

All citizens should just leave that question blank or mark it illegal just to fuck with them.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

1 hour ago, David Dennison said:

25,000 is not a huge problem in a country of 300 million.

I was told that 1 illegal vote, out of the past 5 billion votes cast, is the reason for new laws.

[David Dennison 18658]

6 minutes ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Let’s talk about this bullshit about the upcoming census that some idiots in the Iranian-American community want to do and label us under a new category that ISN’T WHITE. I have sent blistering letters to the Iranian groups behind this bullshit. I am glad that it hasn’t been approved and I had a hand in doing so with my letter writing. Remember, I was the one with my letter writing crew that got the Titans games off the air on KEYE in favor of the Texans. I will ALWAYS select white as my race and always will. Idiots want us to grab on the minority POC gravy train. 

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-census-middle-east-north-africa-race/

I wonder if white people think you're white. That's what really matters in America.

[Jiggy-Z 3432]

3 hours ago, Johnny Sack said:

You don't think they're smart enough to game exemptions?

They can't game their way out of FICA, which they have no hope of ever seeing.

[GHOSTUSER 361]

52 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I wonder if white people think you're white. That's what really matters in America.

Wow, you and I agree for once

[Foosters 17733]

55 minutes ago, David Dennison said:

I wonder if white people think you're white. That's what really matters in America.

They don't.  That's what hurts so bad. They're never going to let him in the cool kids group.

[Enchubben 5509]

3 hours ago, David Dennison said:

Undocumented immigrants absolutely pay taxes.

And in the past 20 years, the Internal Revenue Service has made it easier for workers to pay taxes if they don’t have a social security number (or a fake one, for that matter). Workers who are paid illegally in cash can still pay their taxes with an Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN), filing a return just like any other taxpayer; having a history of paying taxes can be an important step in securing legal status. In 2010, about 3 million people paid over $870 million in income taxes using an ITIN, and according to the IRS, ITIN filers pay $9 billion in payroll taxes annually. (The IRS says it does not share ITIN information with immigration authorities.)

That $870M does not look like a net number; just total payments from those with an ITIN that are paying.  That does not include immigrants that had a net refund due to fully refundable child tax credits and earned income tax credits which were probably multiples of that.  It's a half truth.

When I did low income families taxes in Austin, yes you would get the occasional $2-$3K payment due, but for every one of those there were probably 5 or 6 refunds in that amount or more.

[JustBecause 112]

11 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

There’s little doubt of the purpose of this question: to scare some illegal or legal immigrants from answering.  Census experts told Wilbur Ross that other methods are more accurate to count citizenship status but he has the inherent wisdom of knowing how to count people.

But does this rise to a level of shameful behavior that will convince Roberts to take action?  Who knows. My guess is that he punts that this is an Admin function and not for the courts to intervene.

Make up call for the ACA decision?

[TxTower 650]

They can't game their way out of FICA, which they have no hope of ever seeing.

Well join the club!

[Asithappens 974]

18 hours ago, CooterBrown said:

All citizens should just leave that question blank or mark it illegal just to fuck with them.

This.

Accidently, of course. Not intentionally. That would be wrong.

[wildcat09 29256]

18 hours ago, Iconoclast Texan said:

Let’s talk about this bullshit about the upcoming census that some idiots in the Iranian-American community want to do and label us under a new category that ISN’T WHITE. I have sent blistering letters to the Iranian groups behind this bullshit. I am glad that it hasn’t been approved and I had a hand in doing so with my letter writing. Remember, I was the one with my letter writing crew that got the Titans games off the air on KEYE in favor of the Texans. I will ALWAYS select white as my race and always will. Idiots want us to grab on the minority POC gravy train. 

https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-census-middle-east-north-africa-race/

You're not white. Us real whites had a secret meeting and held a vote on whether Persians could be white and it was overwhelmingly a no. I take no pleasure in breaking this traumatic news to you.

[David Dennison 18658]

10 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

You're not white. Us real whites had a secret meeting and held a vote on whether Persians could be white and it was overwhelmingly a no. I take no pleasure in breaking this traumatic news to you.

I voted off white. Was that wrong of me?