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Supreme Court conservatives appear ready to OK Trump’s census citizenship question

JustBecause

By JustBecause
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Mojo Hand
Mojo Hand

Hopefully people are starting to realize that the president "can" do whatever people let him do.   Our institutions are only as good as the people who run them.  The Senate has abdicated virtually all

Huckleberry
Huckleberry

No, it's not. "Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed

hayden_horn
hayden_horn

yeah, so i have some unique insight on this, given that i worked for the 2010 census. immigrant populations, hell, even native spanish speaking citizens, are wary of the census, just as crazy fun

Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32543

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Hugo Stiglitz said:

This seems like a situation that is not supposed to happen under any circumstances 

Yeah, well, here we are.  Of course, this can apply to most everything the Executive branch has done since January 2017.

 

 

Edited by Francisco 2.0
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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9918

Posted
Posted

Good to know that the majority of the country disagrees with the Surly group think 

 

 
Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on CensusTwo-thirds of voters support allowing the U.S. census to include a question about an individual’s citizenship status, disagreeing with the Supreme Court’s decision to block the question.In a Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released Tuesday, 67 percent of respondents said the question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” should be allowed on the census. That number included about 88 percent of Republicans, 52 percent of Democrats, and 63 percent of independents agreed.”The public here agrees with the administration that it makes sense to ask citizenship on the census,” said poll director Mark Penn. “It is a clear supermajority of Americans on this issue.”
 
 
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Hugo Stiglitz

Hugo Stiglitz 23367

Posted
Posted
33 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Good to know that the majority of the country disagrees with the Surly group think 

 

 
Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on CensusTwo-thirds of voters support allowing the U.S. census to include a question about an individual’s citizenship status, disagreeing with the Supreme Court’s decision to block the question.In a Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released Tuesday, 67 percent of respondents said the question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” should be allowed on the census. That number included about 88 percent of Republicans, 52 percent of Democrats, and 63 percent of independents agreed.”The public here agrees with the administration that it makes sense to ask citizenship on the census,” said poll director Mark Penn. “It is a clear supermajority of Americans on this issue.”
 
 

Cool straw man.  Now do universal healthcare, gun control, and climate change. 

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bolverk

bolverk 30228

Posted
Posted

I'm fairly certain a majority of Americans haven't really thought this rather technical and relatively obscure issue through, but those who have - and are still in favor adding the question - want an undercount along with its intended consequences.

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Js1

Js1 86929

Posted
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, bolverk said:

I'm fairly certain a majority of Americans haven't really thought this rather technical and relatively obscure issue through, but those who have - and are still in favor adding the question - want an undercount along with its intended consequences.

In theory, the question looks fine. In practice, it will lead to undercount or a conservative Commerce Dept manipulating results once the counts come in and/or a conservative DOJ using it to roundup undocumented persons. They don’t say that second part in a poll. 

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bolverk

bolverk 30228

Posted
Posted
Just now, Js1 said:

In theory, the question looks fine. In practice, it will lead to undercount or a conservative Commerce Dept undercounting once the results come in and/or a conservative DOJ using it to roundup undocumented persons. They don’t say that second part in a poll. 

Palabra. Es no bueno.

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thrillhammer

thrillhammer 686

Posted
Posted
57 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Good to know that the majority of the country disagrees with the Surly group think 

 

 
Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on CensusTwo-thirds of voters support allowing the U.S. census to include a question about an individual’s citizenship status, disagreeing with the Supreme Court’s decision to block the question.In a Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released Tuesday, 67 percent of respondents said the question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” should be allowed on the census. That number included about 88 percent of Republicans, 52 percent of Democrats, and 63 percent of independents agreed.”The public here agrees with the administration that it makes sense to ask citizenship on the census,” said poll director Mark Penn. “It is a clear supermajority of Americans on this issue.”
 
 

count me in with the 1/3 majority of intelligent, rule of law, constitutional protection minority.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9918

Posted
Posted (edited)

The Harvard numbers don’t lie. 

Party over country. 

When the California elites/government decides to give free illegal immigrant health care without a public vote or approval the citizens damn well have a right to know the price tag of what they were unwittingly committed to. 

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9918

Posted
Posted (edited)

Easy. First example is your state. Your government just enacted free illegal immigrant health care without a vote of the people without having any clue how many illegal immigrants actually reside in the state. They have given a fairy tale estimate of 98 million dollars. Based on what exactly?

With 12% of the population but 1/3 of the country’s welfare recipients, how is this policy going to help the struggling citizens?

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henrygandorf

henrygandorf 29218

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Easy. First example is your state. Your government just enacted free illegal immigrant health care without a vote of the people without having any clue how many illegal immigrants actually reside in the state. They have given a fairy tale estimate of 98 million dollars. Based on what exactly?

is this directed at me?

census counts persons currently living in the country.  how does including the question help the accuracy of the purpose of the census?

i'm not asking about the impact or the implications.  i'm asking you to explain your claim.

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ChickenSandwich

ChickenSandwich 9918

Posted
Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, henrygandorf said:

is this directed at me?

census counts persons currently living in the country.  how does including the question help the accuracy of the purpose of the census?

i'm not asking about the impact or the implications.  i'm asking you to explain your claim.

Rewarding states with house representatives for incentivizing illegal immigrations disenfranchises citizen voters from states that don’t. 

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elfenix

elfenix 34658

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Easy. First example is your state. Your government just enacted free illegal immigrant health care without a vote of the people without having any clue how many illegal immigrants actually reside in the state. They have given a fairy tale estimate of 98 million dollars. Based on what exactly?

they already know that from the american community survey.

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Ghost of LL

Ghost of LL 15664

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

 

TO THE HONORABLE UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE:

COMES NOW the United States Department of Justice, counsel of record for the Defendant United States in the above-styled and -numbered action, and due to (1) irreconcilable differences of opinion as to the effect of legal authority and strategy for these proceedings going forward and (2) inability to communicate with and obtain coherent instruction from its client respectfully moves the Court to grant it leave to withdraw as counsel . . . .

 

 

 

 

 

 

Note: I never begin pleadings with "TO THE HONORABLE UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE," and I damned sure as shit don't do any of the "COMES NOW" bullshit.  But it makes for a funnier post.  So there you have it.

Edited by Ghost of LL
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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13350

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Good to know that the majority of the country disagrees with the Surly group think 

 

 
Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on CensusTwo-thirds of voters support allowing the U.S. census to include a question about an individual’s citizenship status, disagreeing with the Supreme Court’s decision to block the question.In a Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released Tuesday, 67 percent of respondents said the question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” should be allowed on the census. That number included about 88 percent of Republicans, 52 percent of Democrats, and 63 percent of independents agreed.”The public here agrees with the administration that it makes sense to ask citizenship on the census,” said poll director Mark Penn. “It is a clear supermajority of Americans on this issue.”
 
 

Good to know the law disagrees with 2/3s of the country.

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hobbes2702

hobbes2702 13350

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Posted
37 minutes ago, ChickenSandwich said:

The Supreme Court dies a little when transparency and accuracy are not valid reasons. 

That’s probably why they didn’t accept those as reasons... because adding this question makes the census less transparent and less accurate. Try again.

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

Posted
Posted
51 minutes ago, Js1 said:

In theory, the question looks fine. In practice, it will lead to undercount or a conservative Commerce Dept manipulating results once the counts come in and/or a conservative DOJ using it to roundup undocumented persons. They don’t say that second part in a poll. 

Thing is, though, while it makes intuitive sense that unlawful immigrants won't answer a census question on citizenship or a census containing such a question, I have to question whether they respond to the census in any great numbers with or without such questions.

Everyone that assumes this results in an undercount (compared to the usual undercount) seems to be rather speculating.  And that includes GOP strategists.

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bolverk

bolverk 30228

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Thing is, though, while it makes intuitive sense that unlawful immigrants won't answer a census question on citizenship or a census containing such a question, I have to question whether they respond to the census in any great numbers with or without such questions.

 Everyone that assumes this results in an undercount (compared to the usual undercount) seems to be rather speculating.  And that includes GOP strategists.

The Census Bureau's internal statisticians aren't just making assumptions. They've already studied this matter pretty thoroughly.

Quote

 

The addition of a citizenship question to the 2020 census could affect the self-response rate, a key
driver of the cost and quality of a census. We find that citizenship question response patterns in
the American Community Survey (ACS) suggest that it is a sensitive question when asked about
administrative record noncitizens but not when asked about administrative record citizens. ACS
respondents who were administrative record noncitizens in 2017 frequently choose to skip the
question or answer that the person is a citizen. We predict the effect on self-response to the entire
survey by comparing mail response rates in the 2010 ACS, which included a citizenship question,
with those of the 2010 census, which did not have a citizenship question, among households in
both surveys. We compare the actual ACS-census difference in response rates for households that
may contain noncitizens (more sensitive to the question) with the difference for households
containing only U.S. citizens. We estimate that the addition of a citizenship question will have an
8.0 percentage point larger effect on self-response rates in households that may have noncitizens
relative to those with only U.S. citizens. Assuming that the citizenship question does not affect
unit self-response in all-citizen households and applying the 8.0 percentage point drop to the 28.1
% of housing units potentially having at least one noncitizen would predict an overall 2.2
percentage point drop in self-response in the 2020 census, increasing costs and reducing the quality
of the population count.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6165808/U-S-Census-Bureau-Working-Paper-Understanding.pdf

 

A good portion of me doing a good job at in my professional life relies on obtaining accurate data on the population of communities throughout Texas. While an inaccurate population count undoubtedly affects matters in the political realm, it also results in adverse decisions in the business world due to a poor understanding of the consumer market.

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David Dennison

David Dennison 19440

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

The Harvard numbers don’t lie. 

Party over country. 

When the California elites/government decides to give free illegal immigrant health care without a public vote or approval the citizens damn well have a right to know the price tag of what they were unwittingly committed to. 

You don't get to say party over country.

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TexArcher

TexArcher 38816

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Good to know that the majority of the country disagrees with the Surly group think 

 

 
Poll: Two-Thirds of Voters Say Citizenship Question Should Be Allowed on CensusTwo-thirds of voters support allowing the U.S. census to include a question about an individual’s citizenship status, disagreeing with the Supreme Court’s decision to block the question.In a Harvard CAPS/Harris poll released Tuesday, 67 percent of respondents said the question, “Is this person a citizen of the United States?” should be allowed on the census. That number included about 88 percent of Republicans, 52 percent of Democrats, and 63 percent of independents agreed.”The public here agrees with the administration that it makes sense to ask citizenship on the census,” said poll director Mark Penn. “It is a clear supermajority of Americans on this issue.”
 
 

And this is one reason among many why the average American isn't qualified to be a Supreme Court Justice.

But it's cool that Republicans occasionally give a shit about what the majority of the country wants.  I guess.

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CO Horn

CO Horn 172

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, ChickenSandwich said:

Easy. First example is your state. Your government just enacted free illegal immigrant health care without a vote of the people without having any clue how many illegal immigrants actually reside in the state. They have given a fairy tale estimate of 98 million dollars. Based on what exactly?

With 12% of the population but 1/3 of the country’s welfare recipients, how is this policy going to help the struggling citizens?

How will the citizenship question provide the number of illegal immigrants in a state?

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, bolverk said:

The Census Bureau's internal statisticians aren't just making assumptions. They've already studied this matter pretty thoroughly.

A good portion of me doing a good job at in my professional life relies on obtaining accurate data on the population of communities throughout Texas. While an inaccurate population count undoubtedly affects matters in the political realm, it also results in adverse decisions in the business world due to a poor understanding of the consumer market.

I'm not arguing that there's no ill intent here, I just think those who think its a big deterrent are overestimating the effect.  And there's a glaring flaw in what you quoted:

Quote

We compare the actual ACS-census difference in response rates for households that
may contain noncitizens (more sensitive to the question) with the difference for households
containing only U.S. citizens.

I think there is an inherent under reporting from "households that may contain noncitizens" that isn't affected by the presence of a citizenship question.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32543

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Message Board User said:

JFC.

 

 

From the article:

Quote

"If the president of the United States were to issue an executive order, supported by his full Article II powers, directing that the citizenship question be included in the 2020 census, I believe the Supreme Court would affirm the constitutional power of the president to include the citizenship question in the census.”

Look, I'm a mouth breather who's grasp of constitutional issues is limited.  But, if this is the case, then why have a Supreme Court, since the President can just issue an Executive Order at any time overriding what the Supremes have decided.  Going further, if this is the case, then the rest of the constitution is invalid, since the President can just issue an Executive Order for whatever he wants, right?

 

Is there still room on the ledge?

 

 

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swraith

swraith 348

Posted
Posted
JFC.
 


People still think that Trump plays by some similar ruleset of decency. He doesn’t. He would love to be an all powerful ruler. No Congress. No Supreme Court. No Federal Reserve. Just him and his tanks and planes.

That is why I was shocked upthread when DOJ announced so quickly that census was moving forward without the question. No way that Trump signed off on that DOJ decision.
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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31987

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, HenryJames said:

All they have to do is come up with a better lie, and Roberts will buy it.

Lmao yeah.  Not sure how you escape having a pretextual justification once the original justification is ruled to be a pretext.

Noooo, this is the REAL reason we want it.  Pinky swear.

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