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2nd Round: Raptors vs. Sixers

BigOrange1

By BigOrange1
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2nd Round: Sixers vs. Raptors  

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  1. 1. Who you got?

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  • Poll closed on 04/27/19 at 11:45 PM

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52-80

52-80 19259

Posted
Posted
41 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Sixers are never going to do anything in the playoffs as long as Simmons is on the roster.  They are playing legitimately 4 on 5 on offense in the half court.

 

Let's not act like Troell Embiid is lighting it up, either. 

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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57 minutes ago, 52-80 said:

Let's not act like Troell Embiid is lighting it up, either. 

Oh, hell no.  The Ringer had a great article about him yesterday.  Apparently, his diet is absolute shit and he's lax at conditioning:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5/7/18534684/nba-playoffs-joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-marc-gasol

When Landry Shamet was with the team, one of his rookie tasks was supplying Chik Fil A to the entire team before road trips.  Embiid in particular had a special request:

 

Quote

“Chick-Fil-A, it’s about a $200 or $220 tab … road trips, anytime we get on a plane, I have to get Chick-Fil-A … Joel [Embiid] specifically has his four cookies and cream milkshakes he requests.” Shamet stated.

 

 

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d2o

d2o 1602

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On 5/8/2019 at 9:25 AM, Francisco 2.0 said:

Oh, hell no.  The Ringer had a great article about him yesterday.  Apparently, his diet is absolute shit and he's lax at conditioning:

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2019/5/7/18534684/nba-playoffs-joel-embiid-philadelphia-76ers-marc-gasol

When Landry Shamet was with the team, one of his rookie tasks was supplying Chik Fil A to the entire team before road trips.  Embiid in particular had a special request:

 

 

 

He clearly is in shitty shape.   Talking heads keep trying to say its cause he hasn't played the full season.   That's bullshit.   He has had more than enough time to be in shape this yr.   There is more at play and this makes sense.

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Bartles

Bartles 769

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Embiid: I don't know what's wrong the last couple games, but he had a great year for the 64 games he played. He went over 30 minutes in 52 of those games, and had four 40+ minute games. He had to play to the end against some bad teams to ensure the Sixers got wins while the new guys adjusted to the system.  Was dominant in the last three games vs. Brooklyn and at times during the current series. I wouldn't make to much of this week even if he gets punked again tonight

Simmons: Is obviously not a typical guard. Extremely frustrating to have such a key player offer absolutely nothing on the offensive end. I think he's done all he can to defend Kawhi who has been superhuman - there's no way that hasn't detracted from his offense this series. Only a handful of teams have enough size/athleticism to take him out of the offense despite his lack of shooting. He terrorizes most defenses with his passing, penetration and speed. But the last two years in round two of the playoffs, he's been shut down.

In short, I get that people have "process fatigue" hearing about these guys but they aren't as bad as the internet nor Bill Simmons would have you believe. Ben is 22, Joel is 24 - very few players that age are still getting minutes at all right now.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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2 hours ago, Bartles said:

Embiid: I don't know what's wrong the last couple games, but he had a great year for the 64 games he played. He went over 30 minutes in 52 of those games, and had four 40+ minute games. He had to play to the end against some bad teams to ensure the Sixers got wins while the new guys adjusted to the system.  Was dominant in the last three games vs. Brooklyn and at times during the current series. I wouldn't make to much of this week even if he gets punked again tonight

Simmons: Is obviously not a typical guard. Extremely frustrating to have such a key player offer absolutely nothing on the offensive end. I think he's done all he can to defend Kawhi who has been superhuman - there's no way that hasn't detracted from his offense this series. Only a handful of teams have enough size/athleticism to take him out of the offense despite his lack of shooting. He terrorizes most defenses with his passing, penetration and speed. But the last two years in round two of the playoffs, he's been shut down.

In short, I get that people have "process fatigue" hearing about these guys but they aren't as bad as the internet nor Bill Simmons would have you believe. Ben is 22, Joel is 24 - very few players that age are still getting minutes at all right now.

Embiid is uber-talented but he is already brittle and doesn't take of himself.   For a dude that size it is a recipe for disaster.   

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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3 hours ago, d2o said:

Embiid is uber-talented but he is already brittle and doesn't take of himself.   For a dude that size it is a recipe for disaster.   

Speaking of:

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/26655483/why-world-does-joel-embiid-fall-much

 

Quote

Tally up all the falling down, and in this victory over the Celtics, Joel Embiid has tipped over no fewer than nine times.

Sound like a lot? It is a lot. To study it further is to discover that it's less of an anomaly than a matter of course: A possession-by-possession video analysis of Embiid's season reveals that he has fallen 244 times since the start of the 2018-19 campaign, which comes out to 3.3 times per game or roughly one fall for every 10 minutes the Sixers center spends on the court.

 

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How does that falling down stack up? Although no falls-per-36-minutes metric exists on a leaguewide scale, we studied five games of video on five other players known for regularly denting the floor: Ersan Ilyasova, who led the NBA this season in drawing charges; Blake Griffin, second in charges; Jusuf Nurkic, who, like Griffin, gets hit constantly; Russell Westbrook, perhaps the sport's most aggressive player; and James Harden, the reigning MVP who drives to the basket -- and, well, flops -- more than anyone.

 

Quote

The takeaway: Embiid indeed belongs on the NBA's Mount Rushmore of Frequent Fallers. He falls more often, on a per-minute basis, than Griffin (every 14 minutes), Nurkic (every 13 minutes) and Westbrook (every 12 minutes) and at roughly the same rate as Ilyasova (every nine minutes) and remains upright a bit more frequently than Harden (every eight minutes). But among true big men -- those with farther to fall and bigger bones to bust -- Embiid stands alone in his inability to remain standing.

 

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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6 hours ago, Bartles said:

Simmons: Is obviously not a typical guard. Extremely frustrating to have such a key player offer absolutely nothing on the offensive end. I think he's done all he can to defend Kawhi who has been superhuman - there's no way that hasn't detracted from his offense this series. Only a handful of teams have enough size/athleticism to take him out of the offense despite his lack of shooting. He terrorizes most defenses with his passing, penetration and speed. But the last two years in round two of the playoffs, he's been shut down.

In short, I get that people have "process fatigue" hearing about these guys but they aren't as bad as the internet nor Bill Simmons would have you believe. Ben is 22, Joel is 24 - very few players that age are still getting minutes at all right now.

He's the Sixer's Andre Roberson.  But Roberson will at least take 3's and force a defense to at least pretend to guard him.  Simmons won't even do that.

 

 

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ztejas

ztejas 43542

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Posted
26 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

He's the Sixer's Andre Roberson.  But Roberson will at least take 3's and force a defense to at least pretend to guard him.  Simmons won't even do that.

 

 

Did you just compare Ben Simmons to Andre Roberson? Really?

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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42 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Did you just compare Ben Simmons to Andre Roberson? Really?

Yes, yes I did.

In this series, Ben Simmons is having the same kind of effect on the Sixers that Andre Roberson did for the Thunder when he was healthy.  Solid defender, non existent on the other end of the floor.

If all they did was run up and down the floor, Simmons would be all world.  But he's averaging 9 points a game this series.  9.

Andre Roberson's career playoff average scoring?  8.6 per 36 minutes.

To be fair, I'm not comparing the talent level of the two.  Simmons is far, far more gifted.  But until he figures out the offensive side of the equation, he's limited himself as a player.  No one is bragging about his offensive game this playoffs.  All pundits are either A)bitching about his offense or B) lauding his defense.  

Sounds Andre Roberson-ish to me.

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ztejas

ztejas 43542

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4 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Yes, yes I did.

In this series, Ben Simmons is having the same kind of effect on the Sixers that Andre Roberson did for the Thunder when he was healthy.  Solid defender, non existent on the other end of the floor.

If all they did was run up and down the floor, Simmons would be all world.  But he's averaging 9 points a game this series.  9.

Andre Roberson's career playoff average scoring?  8.6 per 36 minutes.

To be fair, I'm not comparing the talent level of the two.  Simmons is far, far more gifted.  But until he figures out the offensive side of the equation, he's limited himself as a player.  No one is bragging about his offensive game this playoffs.  All pundits are either A)bitching about his offense or B) lauding his defense.  

Sounds Andre Roberson-ish to me.

Are you even watching the game? Simmons has 10 pts and 6 dimes on 5/7 shooting in the first half. You are comparing players that are in completely different stratospheres as far as I'm concerned.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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3 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Are you even watching the game? Simmons has 10 pts and 6 dimes on 5/7 shooting in the first half. You are comparing players that are in completely different stratospheres as far as I'm concerned.

Yep, I'm watching the game.  He's had a good half.  In the meantime, here's his stats for games 1-5:

 

Game 1   14  9 3

Game 2.   6 7 5

Game 3    10  7  7

Game 4    10  5  4

Game 5   7  7  4

Again, I'm not saying they are equal talent wise.  Simmons is head and shoulders better than Roberson ever will be there.  But there's the numbers of an All-Star 6' 10" point guard in the second round of the playoffs.  Tell me; are those the kinds of numbers someone with Simmons credentials should have?  

Open court, absolutely.  He's gifted.  But once the game slows down, two years now....he becomes a non-factor on the offensive side of the floor.  OKC hid Roberson on offense as much as they could.  Philly has done that with Simmons this series:

https://www.theringer.com/2019/5/9/18537564/play-ben-simmons-at-center-philadelphia-76ers-joel-embiid

 

Quote

The equation changes in the playoffs. There isn’t much that Simmons can do against teams that can control the tempo of the game, pack the paint, and take away his ability to drive. The 76ers run an unorthodox offense in the regular season to maximize the abilities of their young star: They were tied for no. 2 in the NBA in the percentage of their offense that comes from dribble handoffs (8.2), and in the bottom two in the percentage of their offense that comes from pick-and-roll ball handlers (11.5) and roll men (3.5). Those numbers normalize in the playoffs: Dribble handoffs have dropped to 6.1 percent of their total offense, while the percentage that comes from ball handlers in the pick-and-roll increases to 15.3. It all goes back to Simmons. Philadelphia isn’t running as much offense through him against Toronto as it did in the regular season.

 

Quote

One of the big adjustments that Brown has made in the series is to empower Jimmy Butler. The Sixers acquired Butler, a 6-foot-8 and 232-pound wing who can shoot off the dribble from all over the floor, to give themselves a Plan B that they didn’t have last season. He has handled the ball about as much as Simmons over the past four games. He went from averaging 51.6 touches per game in the regular season, with an average time of possession of 3.0 seconds, to 68.0 touches per game against the Raptors, with an average time of possession of 5.6 seconds. Butler has been everything they could have hoped for, averaging 25.8 points on 46.5 percent shooting and 6.3 assists in the past four games.

 

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The downside of making that switch is that Simmons doesn’t have much to do. There are a lot of possessions where he brings the ball up the court, gives it to Butler, and then hangs out on the baseline. His poor shooting means that he can’t play on the perimeter without the ball in his hands, and the lack of shooting around him means that he can’t make cuts to the basket, either. Butler has encouraged Simmons to be more aggressive on offense, but the way he’s being used doesn’t give him many avenues to funnel his aggression. The result is a player who looks passive and indecisive. Simmons has not made an impact on the series: The 76ers have a net rating of minus-5 in his 178 minutes on the floor.

 

 

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ztejas

ztejas 43542

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Posted
20 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Yep, I'm watching the game.  He's had a good half.  In the meantime, here's his stats for games 1-5:

 

Game 1   14  9 3

Game 2.   6 7 5

Game 3    10  7  7

Game 4    10  5  4

Game 5   7  7  4

Again, I'm not saying they are equal talent wise.  Simmons is head and shoulders better than Roberson ever will be there.  But there's the numbers of an All-Star 6' 10" point guard in the second round of the playoffs.  Tell me; are those the kinds of numbers someone with Simmons credentials should have?  

Open court, absolutely.  He's gifted.  But once the game slows down, two years now....he becomes a non-factor on the offensive side of the floor.  OKC hid Roberson on offense as much as they could.  Philly has done that with Simmons this series:

https://www.theringer.com/2019/5/9/18537564/play-ben-simmons-at-center-philadelphia-76ers-joel-embiid

 

 

 

 

Oh sorry I was trying to having a discussion, not just quoting what some journalist wrote on the matter. 

Comparing Simmons to Roberson is fucking retarded. Have a nice night.

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Francisco 2.0

Francisco 2.0 32430

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1 minute ago, ztejas said:

Oh sorry I was trying to having a discussion, not just quoting what some journalist wrote on the matter. 

Comparing Simmons to Roberson is fucking retarded. Have a nice night.

Hey, that's fine.  But until it's no longer 4 on 5 for Philly on offense (and yes, he's having an outstanding game tonight)  because of Simmons limitations on offense, then there's plenty of valid comparisons (Ben Wallace?) to make.  And in games 4 and 5, Ben Simmons was as worthless on offense as Andre Roberson was for OKC on offense.  But how about that defense!

 

And I will take issue at use of "retarded".  Just don't.

 

 

 

 

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ztejas

ztejas 43542

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, Francisco 2.0 said:

Hey, that's fine.  But until it's no longer 4 on 5 for Philly on offense (and yes, he's having an outstanding game tonight)  because of Simmons limitations on offense, then there's plenty of valid comparisons (Ben Wallace?) to make.  And in games 4 and 5, Ben Simmons was as worthless on offense as Andre Roberson was for OKC on offense.  But how about that defense!

 

And I will take issue at use of "retarded".  Just don't.

 

 

 

 

Ben Simmons plays point guard and runs their entire offense. It is never 4 on 5 when he is on the court. 

And if you take offense to that word then don't make comments that elicit it. 

Edited by ztejas
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Bartles

Bartles 769

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Bizarre series with teams exchanging what should be soul-crushing blowouts, and each having won a road game. The Bucks have to be loving this, but I wouldn't be surprised if TOR-PHI rides the momentum to snatch at least a game at MIL next week.

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9677

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, ztejas said:

Ben Simmons plays point guard and runs their entire offense. It is never 4 on 5 when he is on the court. 

And if you take offense to that word then don't make comments that elicit it. 

If you don't wanna be compared to a scrub then don't play like a fucking scrub.

 

The man plays point guard and he can't shoot a basketball. His shooting mechanics are pure garbage. That's a problem. 

Edited by Pam Cummings
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d2o

d2o 1602

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1 hour ago, Pam Cummings said:

If you don't wanna be compared to a scrub then don't play like a fucking scrub.

 

The man plays point guard and he can't shoot a basketball. His shooting mechanics are pure garbage. That's a problem. 

There are many PGs that are not great shooters.    The PGs primary job is not to shoot despite what many PGs seem to think.     The problem is Brett Brown decided to move Simmons off the ball.    If he is off the ball then he would be required to shoot.   Especially if Brown is not going to run plays to get him the ball while he is moving toward the basket.   He is an elite athlete, with elite passing skills and finishing ability.   Yes, if he had a slightly reliable jumpshot it would be better however,  he hasn't been put in the best spot to succeed in this series by his coach.

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Bartles

Bartles 769

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This is the thing with unorthodox players: sometimes it looks magnificent and genius, and other times it just looks weird. The key is not to lose sight of the former when experiencing the latter. Sometimes, you’ve just gotta have faith.

From the SB Nation post above. He's just a polarizing, unusual player. I suspect if you had a league-wide re-draft of the whole NBA, most GMs would have him slotted mid 2nd round i.e. top 50 in the league. But I guess it's easy to just pluck the negatives and try to brand him as overrated, scrub, etc.

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9677

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28 minutes ago, d2o said:

There are many PGs that are not great shooters.    The PGs primary job is not to shoot despite what many PGs seem to think.     The problem is Brett Brown decided to move Simmons off the ball.    If he is off the ball then he would be required to shoot.   Especially if Brown is not going to run plays to get him the ball while he is moving toward the basket.   He is an elite athlete, with elite passing skills and finishing ability.   Yes, if he had a slightly reliable jumpshot it would be better however,  he hasn't been put in the best spot to succeed in this series by his coach.

It goes beyond "not being a great shooter". He is literally not a threat to shoot the basketball. You can sag way off and just pack the paint and then what's he gonna do.

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Message Board User

Message Board User 12396

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Vic Mackey said:
43 minutes ago, Message Board User said:
 

One game makes up for his whole career? He still can't shoot a ball. That's a problem in today's game. Until he develops some sort of shot outside of 15 feet to be able to spread the floor, he's a liability on offense.

There's a lot of truth in this and I also believe that his complete absence of an outside shot is going to be a millstone around whatever franchise he happens to be on.  I also worry about him being Kardashian'd.  

But we're also in the playoffs are "overreaction" mode.  After Game 5, Simmons was a scrub and the 76ers were a joke and Brett Brown was about to receive his pink slip.  After last night?  Simmons is now a transcendent talent and Philly has momentum.  Neither extremes are probably 100% correct and Simmons isn't the only 2nd year player to have struggles in the playoffs (Mitchell & Tatum come immediately to mind).

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UTDD

UTDD 362

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One can debate Simmons' long-term game all they want, but the bottom line is that so far he has not performed at his talent level this series even without an outside shot.  I saw Rondo many years ago and even just recently with New Orleans (to be fair Rondo could shoot with New Orleans) with similar deficiencies and much less overall talent dominate playoff games/series (at his much shorter height too) in ways that Simmons can draw from and try to emulate.  To be fair, Brown has not really tried to push tempo enough and has maybe allowed Butler to play a little too much PG at times and in my eyes has not maximized Simmons' potential in this series.  Plus Simmons is still so young so it is reasonable to expect a player that age to take control of their own destiny a little more?  I am really curious to see how he, Embiid, and Harris play in Game 7.  (I am confident Butler will be ready to play)    

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d2o

d2o 1602

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3 hours ago, Pam Cummings said:

It goes beyond "not being a great shooter". He is literally not a threat to shoot the basketball. You can sag way off and just pack the paint and then what's he gonna do.

If that was the case how/why was he ever successful?    People have been backing off all season.   He still was in the lane constantly.

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d2o

d2o 1602

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2 hours ago, UTDD said:

One can debate Simmons' long-term game all they want, but the bottom line is that so far he has not performed at his talent level this series even without an outside shot.  I saw Rondo many years ago and even just recently with New Orleans (to be fair Rondo could shoot with New Orleans) with similar deficiencies and much less overall talent dominate playoff games/series (at his much shorter height too) in ways that Simmons can draw from and try to emulate.  To be fair, Brown has not really tried to push tempo enough and has maybe allowed Butler to play a little too much PG at times and in my eyes has not maximized Simmons' potential in this series.  Plus Simmons is still so young so it is reasonable to expect a player that age to take control of their own destiny a little more?  I am really curious to see how he, Embiid, and Harris play in Game 7.  (I am confident Butler will be ready to play)    

All of this.   All the kneejerking is over the top.  He hasn't played well but he hasn't been set up to succeed either.    He is still VERY young as well.    We will see if he ever develops an outside shot but he is a great young player that I'd be willing to bet just about every fan base would be happy to have on their team.     He is taking his lumps now as young players tend to do in the playoffs.

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Goo Punch

Goo Punch 4275

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everyone who keeps harping in his lack of a shoot while comparing him to other PGs keeps acting as if that's the entire story, as if we can't just turn around and say, "yeah and none of those other PGs are 6'10", 250 lbs, which makes him a huge mismatch for most opponents who have no choice but to sag off him and hope that their team D is enough to slow him down." The fact that he can't shoot doesn't tell the whole story, and as has been pointed out he's still very young and developing. harping on his shooting as if it totally defines him as a player is just lazy and slanted. 

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Pam Cummings

Pam Cummings 9677

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, d2o said:

If that was the case how/why was he ever successful?    People have been backing off all season.   He still was in the lane constantly.

He's 6'10 and can handle. He gets plenty of opportunities in the open court to shine. He can bully smaller guys in the post and score or pass. You can have success and put up numbers doing that. But to me, someone with that bad of a shot that plays that position and needs the ball in their hand that often is just not a complete enough player to be considered among the best in the league.

Edited by Pam Cummings
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