Voter Suppression

[Horn Dog 9674]

Not only do the long lines discourage “undesirable” voters(people who work without benefits or time off) it has an added important benefit:

”Vote for me cause gov is the enemy!” --> get in power and do everything you can to fuck up government —> citizens hate the inefficient  gov —> “vote for me cause gov is the enemy!”

[Buzzrock 14871]

it was also a holiday for many people. vote on your day off

That certainly added to it. But we’re going to have Saturday and Sunday voting as well.

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

3 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

That certainly added to it. But we’re going to have Saturday and Sunday voting as well.

 

psst, not everyone has Saturday and Sunday off.

[lemonlime 5503]

It's telling that so many people want to criticize others for waiting in line, instead of criticizing a system designed for this to happen.

[Buzzrock 14871]

psst, not everyone has Saturday and Sunday off.

If you don’t get another day off for the next 18 days then a) that sucks, b) yes yesterday was the only day you could vote early in person and c) you can still get an absentee ballot until 10/30, no questions asked.

That said, the only entities I know that take off for Columbus Day are government and banks. They do t typically work 18-day shifts.

I expect most people who stood in long lines yesterday did so because they wanted to or somehow didn’t know better. It’s not voter suppression.

[Firemans4Horn 17834]

1 minute ago, Buzzrock said:

 

If you don’t get another day off for the next 18 days then a) that sucks, b) yes yesterday was the only day you could vote early in person and c) you can still get an absentee ballot until 10/30, no questions asked.

That said, the only entities I know that take off for Columbus Day are government and banks. They do t typically work 18-day shifts.

I expect most people who stood in long lines yesterday did so because they wanted to or somehow didn’t know better. It’s not voter suppression.

 

11 hour waits to vote is 💯 voter suppression. Because for every person that voted yesterday 4 people probably said fuck that and didn’t get in line or went home. 

[hobbes2702 12847]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

If you don’t get another day off for the next 18 days then a) that sucks, b) yes yesterday was the only day you could vote early in person and c) you can still get an absentee ballot until 10/30, no questions asked.

That said, the only entities I know that take off for Columbus Day are government and banks. They do t typically work 18-day shifts.

I expect most people who stood in long lines yesterday did so because they wanted to or somehow didn’t know better. It’s not voter suppression.

 

What the fuck? Yes it is. How is this even an argument?

[Nivek 16861]

22 minutes ago, Horn Dog said:

Not only do the long lines discourage “undesirable” voters(people who work without benefits or time off) it has an added important benefit:

”Vote for me cause gov is the enemy!” --> get in power and do everything you can to fuck up government —> citizens hate the inefficient  gov —> “vote for me cause gov is the enemy!”

/Republican St. Ronnie Reagan 

[4th&Five 41461]

 

[Brisketexan 104628]

MAGAts setting up a gauntlet that you have to run to get into a polling place, while they shout at you?  Cool, cool....

 

[gmr548 16517]

What kind of broke ass “democracy” do we have that results in people waiting 4+ hours to vote?
 
... 1st world standards. 

Not that kind.

[Voldemort86 2259]

4 hours ago, bolverk said:

Which county do you live in?

Tarrant county 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

32 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

If you don’t get another day off for the next 18 days then a) that sucks, b) yes yesterday was the only day you could vote early in person and c) you can still get an absentee ballot until 10/30, no questions asked.

That said, the only entities I know that take off for Columbus Day are government and banks. They do t typically work 18-day shifts.

I expect most people who stood in long lines yesterday did so because they wanted to or somehow didn’t know better. It’s not voter suppression.

 

lol, that's EXACTLY what that is. how do you not see that? it shouldn't take more time than walk in, register with the polling official, get your ass in front of a machine, and do your thing. having it take more than 15 minutes total is part of what makes people stay home. Hell, fucking Estonia allows their citizens to vote online. There is literally no reason we cannot do the same. Except Republicans. That's a big fucking reason.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Longhorn_Fan68

[Dahobbs 17448]

Just now, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

lol, that's EXACTLY what that is. how do you not see that? it shouldn't take more time than walk in, register with the proctor, get your ass in front of a machine, and do your thing. having it take more than 15 minutes total is part of what makes people stay home. Hell, fucking Estonia allows their citizens to vote online. There is literally no reason we cannot do the same. Except Republicans. That's a big fucking reason.

Voting online is a terrible idea. Estonia can do it for a bunch of reasons that we can't, mainly that they've completely eliminated voter anonymity. We shouldn't do that. 

[Gap03 3287]

17 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

MAGAts setting up a gauntlet that you have to run to get into a polling place, while they shout at you?  Cool, cool....

 

Are Social Distancing Sticks permitted at voting locations in VA?   

 

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

Voting online is a terrible idea. Estonia can do it for a bunch of reasons that we can't, mainly that they've completely eliminated voter anonymity. We shouldn't do that. 

wrong. if my brainwashing... I mean education has taught me anything it is that we are the greatest country on earth that is capable of literally anything. there are real, simple solutions to making online voting viable. stop saying we can't and start saying, how can we?

[wildcat09 29258]

19 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

MAGAts setting up a gauntlet that you have to run to get into a polling place, while they shout at you?  Cool, cool....

 

Every one of these assholes should be arrested.

[lemonlime 5503]

Just now, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

wrong. if my brainwashing... I mean education has taught me anything it is that we are the greatest country on earth that is capable of literally anything. there are real, simple solutions to making online voting viable. stop saying we can't and start saying, how can we?

Sure we can.  But given how many online data breaches there have been, it makes no sense to do so.  There are plenty of safer, convenient ways for people to vote.  If the government chooses to allow them, as opposed to what's going on now in red states.

[Dahobbs 17448]

4 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

wrong. if my brainwashing... I mean education has taught me anything it is that we are the greatest country on earth that is capable of literally anything. there are real, simple solutions to making online voting viable. stop saying we can't and start saying, how can we?

By perfecting cryptography? We don't have the ability to do it securely right now. We just don't. It isn't a simple problem. It isn't a question of will/desire.  

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

1 minute ago, Dahobbs said:

By perfecting cryptography? We don't have the ability to do it securely right now. We just don't. It isn't a simple problem. It isn't a question of will/desire.  

well, then fucking get on it. I'm sure we could use one or two fewer F35's. That should pay for it.

[wildcat09 29258]

I was told blockchain could do it.

[Captainant 27467]

10 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

Voting online is a terrible idea. Estonia can do it for a bunch of reasons that we can't, mainly that they've completely eliminated voter anonymity. We shouldn't do that. 

This is a dumb take. We do extremely sensitive and information-critical actions online every second of every day. The idea that we cannot provide the information security and assurance of those votes in a digital context is such a massive failure.

These are not hard to solve problems, and we can retain voter anonymity AND information assurance with some basic cryptographic signing and encoding

[Longhorn_Fan68 33843]

Here, it's real simple. ~80% of Americans have a smartphone. You set up a voting time and have a video call with your election official, they verify your identity, you use your fingerprint to authenticate yourself, then you vote on your phone. You review your choices and submit your ballot. Election official confirms (blindly) your ballot and you get shown a summary screen of your selections. You confirm audibly and with your fingerprint that you accept this as your ballot. You get a copy texted to you confirming receipt and selections. bingo bango. figure out the security breech possibilities within that framework and we're onward to safe online voting. The other 20% can go vote in person or absentee. 

[Neonmoon 38127]

5 minutes ago, Captainant said:

This is a dumb take. We do extremely sensitive and information-critical actions online every second of every day. The idea that we cannot provide the information security and assurance of those votes in a digital context is such a massive failure.

These are not hard to solve problems, and we can retain voter anonymity AND information assurance with some basic cryptographic signing and encoding

Ding Ding Ding. Thank you

 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

35 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

MAGAts setting up a gauntlet that you have to run to get into a polling place, while they shout at you?  Cool, cool....

 

 

15 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Every one of these assholes should be arrested.

Um this.  WTF?  This is a felony.

[Dahobbs 17448]

1 minute ago, Captainant said:

This is a dumb take. We do extremely sensitive and information-critical actions online every second of every day. The idea that we cannot provide the information security and assurance of those votes in a digital context is such a massive failure.

These are not hard to solve problems, and we can retain voter anonymity AND information assurance with some basic cryptographic signing and encoding

No, it is the correct take. And the take of pretty much everyone that does security for a living. We can do a ton of things online securely because any damage can be limited or corrected and the incentive to causing damage is accordingly limited. Voting doesn't have that mechanism. But, sure, let's just add some "basic cryptograph signing and encoding," as that those have clearly solved all online security problems... oh wait, no, no they haven't.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/09/why-online-voting-is-harder-than-online-banking/

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/researchers-say-online-voting-tech-used-in-5-states-is-fatally-flawed/

https://www.aaas.org/programs/epi-center/internet-online-voting

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3269297/online-voting-is-impossible-to-secure-so-why-are-some-governments-using-it.html

https://www.welivesecurity.com/2020/06/09/security-concerns-online-voting-platform/

Voting can be done safely, securely, and effectively without resorting to online platforms. Let's implement those ideas first.  

[SydneyCarton 47884]

8 minutes ago, Longhorn_Fan68 said:

well, then fucking get on it. I'm sure we could use one or two fewer F35's. That should pay for it.

Lol. This is a country that can't even figure out how masks and basic science works. I think you're setting yourself up for disappointment. Voting online for us is stupid and risky. But read the half dozen other comments posters on this thread have made about how easy it has been to vote in their blue states. We don't have to go online to make voting easy. We need to kick a bunch of shitfaces out of office to make voting easy. 

[Biff Tannen 45499]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

No, it is the correct take. And the take of pretty much everyone that does security for a living. We can do a ton of things online securely because any damage can be limited or corrected and the incentive to causing damage is accordingly limited. Voting doesn't have that mechanism. But, sure, let's just add some "basic cryptograph signing and encoding," as that those have clearly solved all online security problems... oh wait, no, no they haven't.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/09/why-online-voting-is-harder-than-online-banking/

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/researchers-say-online-voting-tech-used-in-5-states-is-fatally-flawed/

https://www.aaas.org/programs/epi-center/internet-online-voting

https://www.csoonline.com/article/3269297/online-voting-is-impossible-to-secure-so-why-are-some-governments-using-it.html

https://www.welivesecurity.com/2020/06/09/security-concerns-online-voting-platform/

Voting can be done safely, securely, and effectively without resorting to online platforms. Let's implement those ideas first.  

IIRC, Dahobbs works in the industry, so I'll defer to him.

[SydneyCarton 47884]

You know what else would make voting fucking easy? Limited reservation systems. Sign up online, then show up at your requested time, confirm your identity, and get to vote in a special fucking tent with no line. It'll be like the Disney Fastpass but for voting. Shit, I'll pay extra for it, let take my tax dollars and give me the fucking family plan. There's about 3 dozen ways to make voting faster and better before we even need to crack the online nut. 

[Dahobbs 17448]

Maybe Apple should have just implemented some "some basic cryptographic signing and encoding" in its T2 security chip?

https://9to5mac.com/2020/10/13/t2-exploit-team/

Or maybe AMD and Intel should have done that to avoid all sorts of side-channel hacks related to speculative execution? 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/how-the-spectre-and-meltdown-hacks-really-worked

This stuff ain't simple and it ain't solved. We can put some impressive locks in place, but so far the best way to secure something is to not even put in a door. 

 

[bolverk 29405]

47 minutes ago, Voldemort86 said:

Tarrant county 

I can't speak to the veracity of the information, but here you go.

https://www.livevoterturnout.com/tarrant-nov-03-2020/Early Voting Dashboard.html

[pyrohornIII 4809]

45 minutes ago, wildcat09 said:

Every one of these assholes should be arrested.

They are the wrong color to be arrested.  

 

29 minutes ago, Biff Tannen said:

 

Um this.  WTF?  This is a felony.

 Yep, but they mean well, right?  Just expressing their opinions.

[gmr548 16517]

Voting online is how you get president Jimbo and VP Looch

[atomheartbevo 89449]

3 hours ago, tx 3 putt said:

Abbott - expanding voting rights !!!!!!!!!!

He may regret his shenanigans.  I'm having a hard time picturing Texas turning blue this year, but all this early voting has got to be making the Texas GOP sweat buckets.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13414]

8 minutes ago, atomheartbevo said:

He may regret his shenanigans.  I'm having a hard time picturing Texas turning blue this year, but all this early voting has got to be making the Texas GOP sweat buckets.

Harris County is projected to have 120K early in-person voters today. In 2016, there were a total of 1.3m voters with Hillary winning by 12 points. Does anyone think Trump is performing as well in Harris County this go-around? 

[gmr548 16517]

Harris County is projected to have 120K early in-person voters today. In 2016, there were a total of 1.3m voters with Hillary winning by 12 points. Does anyone think Trump is performing as well in Harris County this go-around? 

I doubt he'll perform much worse. He got like 42 percent last time. Parts of this county are very trumpy and that's very close to the baseline cult number.

[tokamak 6352]

Didn't see it posted. Texas GOP sues to stop drive-thru voting in Harris County.

Quote

Hours before early voting began, the Texas Republican Party filed a new lawsuit Monday night challenging Harris County’s efforts to provide more voting options during the coronavirus pandemic, this time asking a court to limit curbside voting and halt the county's drive-thru voting programs.

State election law has long allowed voters with medical conditions to vote curbside. After they arrive at a polling location, a ballot is brought outside to them in their vehicle by an election worker. In addition to urging qualified voters to use the curbside option this year, Harris County also opened designated "drive-thru" polling locations for all voters, where poll workers hand people a voting machine through their car window after checking their photo identification.

The state GOP's lawsuit, filed in a state appeals court in Houston, seeks to halt the drive-thru voting program and limit curbside voting to those who have submitted sworn applications saying they qualify for it. Glenn Smith, a senior strategist with Progress Texas, said Tuesday he could find nothing in the law requiring an application to vote curbside. Texas election law instructs election officers to deliver an on-site curbside ballot if a voter is “physically unable to enter the polling place without personal assistance or likelihood of injuring the voter's health.”

https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/13/texas-republicans-voting-harris-county/

[Buzzrock 14871]

11 hour waits to vote is voter suppression. Because for every person that voted yesterday 4 people probably said fuck that and didn’t get in line or went home. 

What the fuck? Yes it is. How is this even an argument?

lol, that's EXACTLY what that is. how do you not see that? it shouldn't take more time than walk in, register with the polling official, get your ass in front of a machine, and do your thing. having it take more than 15 minutes total is part of what makes people stay home. Hell, fucking Estonia allows their citizens to vote online. There is literally no reason we cannot do the same. Except Republicans. That's a big fucking reason.

It’s not. Sorry. It doesn’t matter how much you want it to be.

Think about your logic: every polling place should have short lines on every day of every election in every case no matter what. That makes no sense.

Every person in Georgia has 19 days to vote early in person plus Election Day and every person in Georgia can get an absentee ballot until 10/30. That’s the opposite of voter suppression.

Those are facts. It doesn’t matter how you feel about it.

[hobbes2702 12847]

5 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

 

 

It’s not. Sorry. It doesn’t matter how much you want it to be.

Think about your logic: every polling place should have short lines on every day of every election in every case no matter what. That makes no sense.

Every person in Georgia has 19 days to vote early in person plus Election Day and every person in Georgia can get an absentee ballot until 10/30. That’s the opposite of voter suppression.

Those are facts. It doesn’t matter how you feel about it.

 

 

 

Why are there long lines? Why can’t there be more polling locations? Having to wait in multiple hours long lines is voter suppression. This is truly one of the more ridiculous takes about voter suppression I’ve ever seen. This is like the most basic obvious version of it. The fact that you’re even arguing it is truly bizarre.

Edited October 14, 2020 by hobbes2702

[immamac 42519]

8 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

Maybe Apple should have just implemented some "some basic cryptographic signing and encoding" in its T2 security chip?

https://9to5mac.com/2020/10/13/t2-exploit-team/

Or maybe AMD and Intel should have done that to avoid all sorts of side-channel hacks related to speculative execution? 

https://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/hardware/how-the-spectre-and-meltdown-hacks-really-worked

This stuff ain't simple and it ain't solved. We can put some impressive locks in place, but so far the best way to secure something is to not even put in a door. 

 

sorry dude, but you don't know what you are talking about and it's kinda funny to watch the logic which I can definitely follow, but since you don't know what the technical answer is you make assumptions that are incorrect. 

Spectre/meltdown and speculative execution is only valid for snooping on your "neighbors" especially in a cloud setting. Why the fuck would you put shared workloads with random ass fucking people next to the systems that are processing election results? Let alone on hardware that the State Gov didn't own and entirely restrict access to, likely physically. As in no remote execution or access at all. 

Second to that there are so many "unbreakable" cryptographic cyphers that exist that don't rely on hardware solutions and that don't take very long to implement that would ensure the security of the election. There isn't enough computing power on planet earth to crack some simple cyphers, let alone 150M+ unique ones. RSA 2048, go do some light, eye opening reading.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we shouldn't move there FIRST, but to discount it as a possibility is bogus in it's entirety. 

The articles you linked above in your other response are also completely bogus fearmongering from people who have no idea how infosec works. The entire IC can't even fucking figure out telegram and you want to fucking tell me voting on the internet is hard? It's not hard, it's just not the right solution for the american people (or others) at this time. Forcing people to a medium they don't fully understand and don't trust is even more bogus than your arguments which is why I share your sentiment.

[Dahobbs 17448]

1 hour ago, immamac said:

sorry dude, but you don't know what you are talking about and it's kinda funny to watch the logic which I can definitely follow, but since you don't know what the technical answer is you make assumptions that are incorrect. 

Spectre/meltdown and speculative execution is only valid for snooping on your "neighbors" especially in a cloud setting. Why the fuck would you put shared workloads with random ass fucking people next to the systems that are processing election results? Let alone on hardware that the State Gov didn't own and entirely restrict access to, likely physically. As in no remote execution or access at all. 

Second to that there are so many "unbreakable" cryptographic cyphers that exist that don't rely on hardware solutions and that don't take very long to implement that would ensure the security of the election. There isn't enough computing power on planet earth to crack some simple cyphers, let alone 150M+ unique ones. RSA 2048, go do some light, eye opening reading.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that we shouldn't move there FIRST, but to discount it as a possibility is bogus in it's entirety. 

The articles you linked above in your other response are also completely bogus fearmongering from people who have no idea how infosec works. The entire IC can't even fucking figure out telegram and you want to fucking tell me voting on the internet is hard? It's not hard, it's just not the right solution for the american people (or others) at this time. Forcing people to a medium they don't fully understand and don't trust is even more bogus than your arguments which is why I share your sentiment.

I wasn't pointing to spectre/meltdown related attacks as specific mechanisms that would be used to attack election security. Rather, I was pointing to them as examples of sophisticated attacks on newly discovered vulnerabilities in systems. Hardware, software, and people-ware all present vectors of attack. We do not have a reliable way of securing all of them at present. We should certainly be working on the problem of online voting, but it isn't something we are ready to implement. For instance, if we abandoned voter anonymity, perhaps we could implement a system today. But that presents host of other problems that we simply do not need to introduce. And the risks associated with a voting system zero day attack are infinitely greater than anything else. We don't need to introduce those risks to make voting easier and faster to do. We just need to stop our existing voter suppression efforts. 

Point me to anybody serious about infosec that actually thinks online voting is a good idea and that isn't a snake oil salesmen. I haven't seen one. 

[Buzzrock 14871]

Why are there long lines? Why can’t there be more polling locations? Having to wait in multiple hours long lines is voter suppression. This is truly one of the more ridiculous takes about voter suppression I’ve ever seen. This is like the most basic obvious version of it. The fact that you’re even arguing it is truly bizarre.

There are long lines because there is historic demand and people are motivated and excited to vote and chose to come out in person on the busiest day. That’s it.

That you find that somehow sinister is just as strange to me as your bewilderment at my take. I have presented facts.

Long lines do not automatically equal suppression. Lines were already shorter on day 2.

[DigglerontheHoof 21065]

7 minutes ago, Buzzrock said:

 

There are long lines because there is historic demand and people are motivated and excited to vote and chose to come out in person on the busiest day. That’s it.

That you find that somehow sinister is just as strange to me as your bewilderment at my take. I have presented facts.

Long lines do not automatically equal suppression. Lines were already shorter on day 2.

 

So shutting down polling places in low income neighborhoods, reducing drop-off boxes to one per county and hamstringing the Postal Service isn't voter suppression?

Please, tell us more. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by DigglerontheHoof

[Guest Lobo]

I will say the number of voting locations in East and North Austin are adequate.  I wouldn't say substantial, but adequate.  That they are adding several more for the back half of that last week of early voting plus a really wide expansion on Election Day proper is...again...adequate.  Should be okay on the in-person voting.  
 

But each and every day...I shake my head in disgust at the single dropoff site.  Our children are going to read about this election until they are very old men and women...and candidates aside...we're going to have to try to explain to them why counties with 1, 2, 3, and 4 million people all headed to a single place where Janice from the County collected the most important ballot of the 21st century in a single bin.  I mean, that's some Shirley Jackson novella kinda shit.  

[lemonlime 5503]

There are long lines because there is historic demand and people are motivated and excited to vote and chose to come out in person on the busiest day. That’s it.

That you find that somehow sinister is just as strange to me as your bewilderment at my take. I have presented facts.

Long lines do not automatically equal suppression. Lines were already shorter on day 2.

Are you suggesting that our voting systems should be set up for an apathetic electorate? We want people motivated to vote, no? Our systems need to be designed to accommodate voters when they are motivated, or at the very least not make it more difficult for motivated voters to vote.

You have yet to explain why this is okay. No (other?) country with free and fair elections has hours long lines, regardless of how motivated and excited their voters are. Many (most?) states don’t have these lines either. I have yet to see the video of the hours long line in Boston or San Francisco. Why are you ok with your government setting up voting processes that result in your neighbors standing in line multiple hours to cast a ballot?

[CooterBrown 17913]

The SC gave Trump the okay to end the census count early which according to the Census Bureau will result in millions not being counted. So much for representation. I wonder if they conveniently saved the areas with changing demographics for last.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-grants-trump-administration-request-end-census/story?id=73595066

[Bookman 4611]

Someone needs to take a class in operations management.

[immamac 42519]

6 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

I wasn't pointing to spectre/meltdown related attacks as specific mechanisms that would be used to attack election security. Rather, I was pointing to them as examples of sophisticated attacks on newly discovered vulnerabilities in systems. Hardware, software, and people-ware all present vectors of attack. We do not have a reliable way of securing all of them at present. We should certainly be working on the problem of online voting, but it isn't something we are ready to implement. For instance, if we abandoned voter anonymity, perhaps we could implement a system today. But that presents host of other problems that we simply do not need to introduce. And the risks associated with a voting system zero day attack are infinitely greater than anything else. We don't need to introduce those risks to make voting easier and faster to do. We just need to stop our existing voter suppression efforts. 

Point me to anybody serious about infosec that actually thinks online voting is a good idea and that isn't a snake oil salesmen. I haven't seen one. 

*Raises hand*

The main problem with online voting is the people voting not the technology. 

Pick 100 random people over the age of 60 and tell them to create a poll on telegram using encrypted channels. 

I bet 95 of them fail or give up. 3 of them persevere and finish and only 2 actually feel good about knowing what they did. 

Ok, now think about this. There's 50M+ citizens over 60. 

That's the problem. Not that secure methods don't exist. It's that they are complex and to be safe they have to be done one time and one time only then thrown away with the exception of the encryption key used (saved on device) then after election results are confirmed poof delete everyone's keys and delete the voter data all completely unnecessary after the fact. 

This mechanisms are SIMPLE and the simplicity is what makes the entire process extremely safe, but also complex. simple for 220M+ people is what's hard not the individual voting. 

Ask anyone in telecom how many breaches they have on data that isn't even encrypted over the wire, then start thinking about 5G and every device on earth being connected, but probably not allowed to share data and how the fuck do they get that to work? Magic? 

[Dahobbs 17448]

31 minutes ago, immamac said:

*Raises hand*

The main problem with online voting is the people voting not the technology. 

Pick 100 random people over the age of 60 and tell them to create a poll on telegram using encrypted channels. 

I bet 95 of them fail or give up. 3 of them persevere and finish and only 2 actually feel good about knowing what they did. 

Ok, now think about this. There's 50M+ citizens over 60. 

That's the problem. Not that secure methods don't exist. It's that they are complex and to be safe they have to be done one time and one time only then thrown away with the exception of the encryption key used (saved on device) then after election results are confirmed poof delete everyone's keys and delete the voter data all completely unnecessary after the fact. 

This mechanisms are SIMPLE and the simplicity is what makes the entire process extremely safe, but also complex. simple for 220M+ people is what's hard not the individual voting. 

Ask anyone in telecom how many breaches they have on data that isn't even encrypted over the wire, then start thinking about 5G and every device on earth being connected, but probably not allowed to share data and how the fuck do they get that to work? Magic? 

I think maybe we are agreeing here. Yes, it is possible to create a single, secure message. Creating a system for over 200 million people to securely vote is different. The best systems can fail because people are vulnerable.  Encryption is just one part of system security. Again, best lock in the world, but if the window is open or the door itself is weak, it doesn't really matters. 

I'm not sure I understand your telecom comparison. The ReVoLTE vulnerability was announced a month ago or so. 

 https://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2020/08/12/attack-of-the-week-voice-calls-in-lte/

My personal philosophy is to assume that every system can be compromised. But, you want to design it so that in order to effectuate an attack, the attacker will have to present a large surface, making him easy to discover. That's why the simple paper ballot is nice. Yes, voter fraud is possible. But to achieve it at scale that could impact a national election the attack will necessarily involve a lot of people and contacts that would likely result in easy discovery. Online systems make it much easier to hide the attack, and that is the dangerous one. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by Dahobbs

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28 minutes ago, CooterBrown said:

The SC gave Trump the okay to end the census count early which according to the Census Bureau will result in millions not being counted. So much for representation. I wonder if they conveniently saved the areas with changing demographics for last.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/supreme-court-grants-trump-administration-request-end-census/story?id=73595066

It is harder and takes more time to get an accurate count for lower income areas, for several reasons.  The administration knows this, and it’s their strategy to limit that count and their representation.   Since we only count once every 10 years, it makes a big difference.