Turns Out E-Scooters Might Be The End of Society

[Brisketexan 105158]

4 minutes ago, ztejas said:

Well, it's impossible with everything else that is self-operated, too. 

Not true.  We built road systems for cars, with cars in mind.  The vast majority of drivers are on infrastructure built for their vehicles, operating them as intended.

Scooters are on roads that weren't built for tiny vehicles going 15-20 mph.  And on sidewalks made for pedestrians, not vehicles careening at 15-20 mph.  And if you thought cyclists didn't obey traffic signals.....scooter users laugh at the notion.

[ajax 2618]

24 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Why isn’t the alternative walking?

The guy in the video I posted has a 30 mile 1-way commute to work every day. You want him to walk 60 miles every day? He doesn't own a car. 

My commute is 6 miles one way. I could walk to the 12 miles every day. But fuck no, I'm not walking.

[ztejas 43479]

3 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Not true.  We built road systems for cars, with cars in mind.  The vast majority of drivers are on infrastructure built for their vehicles, operating them as intended.

Scooters are on roads that weren't built for tiny vehicles going 15-20 mph.  And on sidewalks made for pedestrians, not vehicles careening at 15-20 mph.  And if you thought cyclists didn't obey traffic signals.....scooter users laugh at the notion.

No, it is true, not driving/riding/skating/skiing like an idiot is impossible because there are always idiots doing idiot things regardless of the mode of transportation. 

I agree that our infrastructure is not designed for the wave of scooters - I think that's the debate worth having. Let's just not pretend that there aren't thousands of people dying in car accidents every day while we discuss it. 

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

9 minutes ago, ajax said:

The guy in the video I posted has a 30 mile 1-way commute to work every day. You want him to walk 60 miles every day? He doesn't own a car. 

My commute is 6 miles one way. I could walk to the 12 miles every day. But fuck no, I'm not walking.

These e scooter rentals are just for downtown areas aren’t they?  I envision 1/2 mile to 2 mile trips. 

They should be limited to about 10 mph if designed for sidewalk navigation. 

Havent watched your video but if the guy goes 30 miles 1 way he needs to be on the road doing it on a moped or similar. 

[Brisketexan 105158]

8 minutes ago, ztejas said:

No, it is true, not driving/riding/skating/skiing like an idiot is impossible because there are always idiots doing idiot things regardless of the mode of transportation. 

I agree that our infrastructure is not designed for the wave of scooters - I think that's the debate worth having. Let's just not pretend that there aren't thousands of people dying in car accidents every day while we discuss it. 

I'm certainly never going to pretend that all drivers are safe and smart -- dude, I live in Austin.

But per-mile....come on.  And I sure as shit know this.  When I am walking around downtown Austin (which I do quite regularly) I don't have much reason to be afraid of a car taking me out.  In downtown, at least, cars stop at red lights, yield to pedestrians, etc.  Whereas if I see a scooter in motion within 300 feet of me, I know that I have to keep my eye on it, because they will fly down the sidewalk with no regard for the people there, they will run a light while I'm crossing the street, etc.  That's the real-world picture where there is a high density of scooters.  Per mile of usage, the idiocy on scooters is several orders of magnitude greater than the idiocy I see behind the wheel.  And that is NOT praise of Austin car drivers.  It just tells you how bad the f'n scooter users are.

[ajax 2618]

8 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

These e scooter rentals are just for downtown areas aren’t they?  I envision 1/2 mile to 2 mile trips. 

They should be limited to about 10 mph if designed for sidewalk navigation. 

Havent watched your video but if the guy goes 30 miles 1 way he needs to be on the road doing it on a moped or similar. 

The thing he rides is faster than a moped. He can beat the vast majority of cars off the line as opposed to a slow-ass moped and when he gets to his office, he can take it up with him instead of clogging up the streets with parking, as opposed to a big-ass moped.

How is a moped in any way better. Is it just because you've heard of a moped?

Why are you even talking about scooters belonging on sidewalks? Are you even paying attention or are you just drive-by posting?

Edited May 14, 2019 by ajax

[Deej 76833]

58 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

All available data indicates that this is effectively impossible.  The number of scooter riders I see who AREN'T 1) running traffic signals, 2) weaving in and out of traffic, 3) damned near running down pedestrian after pedestrian is so miniscule as to not be worth mentioning.

Maybe if APD would start ticketing these dumbasses? Seems like a great way to increase revenue.

[Brisketexan 105158]

2 minutes ago, Deej said:

Maybe if APD would start ticketing these dumbasses? Seems like a great way to increase revenue.

Why they haven't is a mystery to me.  They could set up a a dozen cops on a given evening and make a kajillion dollars.

[Deej 76833]

5 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Why they haven't is a mystery to me.  They could set up a a dozen cops on a given evening and make a kajillion dollars.

I wonder how many they could pop for DUI in the evenings?

[ajax 2618]

1 hour ago, El Diablo said:

Yes, like SE Asia, some areas of Europe and Central/South America. It does appear that there are no traffic laws as such and yet they seem to manage.

Oddly enough...

Why Street Signs Make Traffic More Dangerous

Monderman removed not only the traffic lights but virtually every other traffic control. Instead of a space cluttered with poles, lights, “traffic islands,” and restrictive arrows, Monderman installed a radical kind of roundabout

A year after the change, the results of this “extreme makeover” were striking: Not only had congestion decreased in the intersection—buses spent less time waiting to get through, for example—but there were half as many accidents, even though total car traffic was up by a third. Students from a local engineering college who studied the intersection reported that both drivers and, unusually, cyclists were using signals—of the electronic or hand variety—more often.

 

[mycox 582]

43 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

These e scooter rentals are just for downtown areas aren’t they?  I envision 1/2 mile to 2 mile trips. 

Would you rather walk over a mile when it's 98 degrees outside, Uber/Lyft, or just grab a scooter and pay $1.75? The scooter will get you your destination in 5 minutes.

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

48 minutes ago, ajax said:

The thing he rides is faster than a moped. He can beat the vast majority of cars off the line as opposed to a slow-ass moped and when he gets to his office, he can take it up with him instead of clogging up the streets with parking, as opposed to a big-ass moped.

How is a moped in any way better. Is it just because you've heard of a moped?

Why are you even talking about scooters belonging on sidewalks? Are you even paying attention or are you just drive-by posting?

The one time I was around these things, 5 months ago, they were universally being used on the sidewalk. 

I chose moped as the alternate because it’s cheap and street legal. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by Pato del Muerto

[El Diablo 4232]

8 minutes ago, ajax said:

Oddly enough...

 

 

My first exposure to this sort of controlled chaos was in Naples, Italy. Traffic circles, aka roundabouts, are common as are honking and pointing. It gets the job done. It convinced me that Mario Andretti must have gotten his start as a taxi driver there.

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

2 minutes ago, mycox said:

Would you rather walk over a mile when it's 98 degrees outside, Uber/Lyft, or just grab a scooter and pay $1.75? The scooter will get you your destination in 5 minutes.

Do you think my post was advocating walking instead of renting a scooter?  

 

[ajax 2618]

2 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

The one time I was around these things, 5 months ago, they were universally being used on the sidewalk. 

But they don't belong on the sidewalk. No one here thinks they belong on the sidewalk and if they're limited to 10mph, then you're talking about a toy. Then yes, it's better to walk. I'm talking about an alternative to a car. 30 miles is extreme, but under 10 miles is completely doable for nearly everyone on a small vehicle.

Think about it this way - the majority of energy used in driving a car is used to move a hunk of metal. When you get to your destination, you have to find, and usually pay, for a place to store the hunk of metal, which takes up a lot of space. Most drivers are only transporting themselves. We have the technology right now to take the hunks of metal out of the equation .

When you drive to work, do you say "I have to take my car to work"? No. You say "I have to go to work". We could use our energy and public space to transport people instead of the hunks of metal.

What we lack is the infrastructure. But imagine if we had it. Imagine how much more space it would free up for people who need to drive cars.

 

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

13 minutes ago, ajax said:

But they don't belong on the sidewalk. No one here thinks they belong on the sidewalk and if they're limited to 10mph, then you're talking about a toy. Then yes, it's better to walk. I'm talking about an alternative to a car. 30 miles is extreme, but under 10 miles is completely doable for nearly everyone on a small vehicle.

Think about it this way - the majority of energy used in driving a car is used to move a hunk of metal. When you get to your destination, you have to find, and usually pay, for a place to store the hunk of metal, which takes up a lot of space. Most drivers are only transporting themselves. We have the technology right now to take the hunks of metal out of the equation .

When you drive to work, do you say "I have to take my car to work"? No. You say "I have to go to work". We could use our energy and public space to transport people instead of the hunks of metal.

What we lack is the infrastructure. But imagine if we had it. Imagine how much more space it would free up for people who need to drive cars.

 

Ok so we are in agreement. On the streets or in dedicated lanes, adhering to the rules of the road. And the user assumes all risk and liability. Whether rentals or owned. 

[ajax 2618]

13 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Ok so we are in agreement. On the streets or in dedicated lanes, adhering to the rules of the road. And the user assumes all risk and liability. Whether rentals or owned. 

You don't even agree with yourself.

 

2 hours ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Why isn’t the alternative walking?

 

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

31 minutes ago, ajax said:

But they don't belong on the sidewalk. No one here thinks they belong on the sidewalk and if they're limited to 10mph, then you're talking about a toy. Then yes, it's better to walk. I'm talking about an alternative to a car. 30 miles is extreme, but under 10 miles is completely doable for nearly everyone on a small vehicle.

Think about it this way - the majority of energy used in driving a car is used to move a hunk of metal. When you get to your destination, you have to find, and usually pay, for a place to store the hunk of metal, which takes up a lot of space. Most drivers are only transporting themselves. We have the technology right now to take the hunks of metal out of the equation .

When you drive to work, do you say "I have to take my car to work"? No. You say "I have to go to work". We could use our energy and public space to transport people instead of the hunks of metal.

What we lack is the infrastructure. But imagine if we had it. Imagine how much more space it would free up for people who need to drive cars.

 

So much space for activities. 

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

7 minutes ago, ajax said:

You don't even agree with yourself.

 

 

Jesus Christ, learn some reading comprehension. 

For the short downtown trips from work to food or coffee place, the alternative to the scooter should be walking and not Uber. 

[ajax 2618]

5 minutes ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Jesus Christ, learn some reading comprehension. 

For the short downtown trips from work to food or coffee place, the alternative to the scooter should be walking and not Uber. 

Who really needs to learn reading comprehension. This is what you were replying to with your "why not walk". Do you think I was talking about a trip to the corner Starbucks?

Again I ask, are you even fucking paying attention?

On 5/13/2019 at 9:28 AM, ajax said:

The scooters don't belong on sidewalks. They shouldn't be on the road with cars either. There should be a network of dedicated lanes for these types of vehicles. 

But you don't get there magically. No city's going to build the infrastructure without a crisis to drive it. A few lanes here and there isn't enough to get people from A to B. Hence this clusterfuck is a necessary step. I hope it gets worse so we can build the damn thing.

Remember, the alternative is these people hailing Ubers and Lyfts, which has made traffic fuck-awful.

[ajax 2618]

19 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

So much space for activities. 

Like this before and after

 

[mycox 582]

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

Do you think my post was advocating walking instead of renting a scooter?  

 

Yes. This was your response earlier

Quote

Why isn’t the alternative walking?

 

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

1 minute ago, mycox said:

Yes. This was your response earlier

 

 

1 hour ago, Pato del Muerto said:

 

For the short downtown trips from work to food or coffee place, the alternative to the scooter should be walking and not Uber. 

 

[mycox 582]

Cool. You just didn't point that out on post #100

What is considered a short trip? I walk when possible because I hate driving. I have a short 2 mile commute to work. I bike when the weather is nice. I will use a scooter when it's hot. 

Edited May 14, 2019 by mycox

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

2 minutes ago, mycox said:

Cool. You just didn't point that out on post #100

I was laboring  under the disillusion that these rental e scooters were only used for the short urban commutes at that time, so I thought it was implied. 

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

Even if we are talking short urban commutes walking is still very limited.  It takes about 20 minutes to walk a mile at normal pace.  You can pick up the speed and cut that down but you are still talking 30-40 minutes round trip.  Factoring in temperature makes it less appealing.  Anything you are doing on a time constraint like lunch break means it's a no go outside of 1/2 mile.  It's not so much a laziness issue as much as time constraints involved.

[Auto Driller 2506]

Any notion that scooters replace driving is dead wrong. City of Austin data showed that the average trip length was 0.7 miles. They replace walking. If what we need as a society is a Silicon Valley solution to the “problem” of walking, then we are truly fucked.

They look like shit all over the sidewalks, roads, parks, etc.

They are dangerous.

They provide little to no contribution to the local economy.

Ban them.

[NeverMarryAStripper 21907]

The average American would drop dead if they walked 0.7 miles

[Pato del Muerto 52528]

3 minutes ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

The average American would drop dead if they walked 0.7 miles

That’s why they need to do it. Cull those that are too far gone, rehab the rest. 

[Gene Parmesan 4008]

Laziness is some of it for sure, but walking 1.4 miles round trip takes some time.  It's nothing if you've got nowhere else to be, but that's not always typical. 

[WBT 20618]

6 hours ago, El Diablo said:

Yes, like SE Asia, some areas of Europe and Central/South America. It does appear that there are no traffic laws as such and yet they seem to manage. I suspect that most of those folks have their heads on swivels and are infinitely more aware of their surroundings than the average American driver. What appears as chaos to you may not be to them.We're a country that wants to use cruise control, text, etc... all at the same time. I think it will take a cultural shift in attitudes about what constitutes responsible driving  and a greater appreciation for physics to make the transition.

 

5 hours ago, ajax said:

Oddly enough...

 

 

About that...

http://www.searo.who.int/thailand/areas/roadsafety/en/

Quote

Strengthening Road Safety in Thailand

Thailand has the second highest road traffic fatality rate in the world at 36.2 per 100 000 with an annual estimate of over 24 000 deaths or 66 deaths every day. While globally 49% of road traffic deaths are among vulnerable road users (pedestrians, cyclists and motorcyclists), it is 83% in Thailand including 73% among motorcyclists or 48 per day. Additionally Thailand loses 3 to 5 % of its GDP due to road traffic crashes.

 

[ajax 2618]

26 minutes ago, WBT said:

 

About that...

http://www.searo.who.int/thailand/areas/roadsafety/en/

 

1. Totally different things

2. Thai people are crazy

[Brisketexan 105158]

3 minutes ago, ajax said:

1. Totally different things

2. Thai people are crazy

The roads are incredibly dangerous there, so they very much recommend airbags in Thailand.  Although they don't call them airbags -- they just refer to them by what they do: pad Thai.

[Beau Vine 54256]

12 hours ago, 2005 said:

I'm gonna leap the Grand Canyon on one of those. 

Snake River Canyon for me.  

[Grade of D as in David 13253]

On 5/13/2019 at 12:16 PM, Trey3216 said:

I guess we should start regulating walking down the streets as well...

Do you even jaywalking fine bro?

[Deej 76833]

58 minutes ago, Beau Vine said:

Snake River Canyon for me.  

Waller Creek.

[Lhorn 4916]

5 hours ago, BurntEyes said:

Someone should invent a highly fuel efficient two wheel vehicle with enough power to keep up with cars but small enough to park in a small space like a bike.

I like it. A motorized cycle of sorts.  Seems like someone would have invented that by now. I’d call it the “auto velo fantastique.”  Probably have two cast iron wheels for durability and be powered by a coal fired steam engine. 

[ajax 2618]

Speaking of 2 wheels, this electric bike goes 60 mph. That's insane. And its only $3.6k

https://onyxmotorbikes.com

 

 

[ajax 2618]

I don't think the Onyx is intended to be a solution to anything. It's a high powered electric bike at a low price point and enthusiasts will snap them up. I don't even know how they can make them at a profit at that price.

Are people taking cafe racers off road? 

[ajax 2618]

5 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

It's only $1000 less than the bike I just referenced and does a lot less shit.

My Ninja 1000 makes 138 mph and while I don't take it off road I did ride it:

Austin-OKC-KC-Souix Falls-Sturgis-Yellow Stone-Glacier National-Coure de Laine- Seattle

That would be a tough peddle post Pflugerville.

Per your typical MO. Either you are being obtuse or intentionally bringing up shit to unsuccessfully support your bullshit point.

You always have a hollier than you, smarter than you, and I'm right you're wrong to every fucking thread you post in.

I am that enthusist you referenced and I know a lot of them, they aren't snapping up this worthless over priced thing.  

Next obtuse point please.

Ignoring your personal attack.

Just to be clear, I don't like the Onyx and I hate it goes that fast. It doesn't solve any of the issues that I care about and actually makes it worse.

But, people will buy them. That's my point. The market for electric bikes is completely separate from the market for motorcycles. They serve completely different purposes. Nobody who is looking at an Onyx will consider a Ninja as an alternative or vice versa. 

As for price point, there are electric bikes that have way worse stats that are selling for $7k.

[ajax 2618]

Fair point. I thought it was interesting/scary that an electric bike will be hitting the market soon that could theoretically go that fast. One that doesn't require a license or insurance.

Btw - I rode a Ninja for a while but never again, at least not in SF. Too many rails in the streets, too much mist on the rails, too many idiot drivers. This has got to be one of the worst cities for motorcyclists.

[elfenix 34321]

On 5/13/2019 at 11:28 AM, ajax said:

The scooters don't belong on sidewalks. They shouldn't be on the road with cars either. There should be a network of dedicated lanes for these types of vehicles.

yup.  go to amsterdam.  they've got this figured out. 

On 5/13/2019 at 8:52 AM, ztejas said:

I don't think it's any more dangerous than snow skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding, riding a bike, etc.

bikes have much larger gyro inertia. ridden responsibly and not like a moron, bikes are almost certainly much safer than these glorified razors.   

[ChickenSandwich 9843]

I thought most electric bikes were limited to 20mph because anything faster would be a different classification of vehicle. 

Maybe that is only in Europe but it is in the manual of my E Bike. (There are mods to add a second motor to take it over 40mph)

[justhookit 4191]

we don’t have them yet, but Port Aransas is probably going to pass a city ordinance to ban them before they try to put them in. I hope we get it done.

I’m in Austin right now and staying downtown. I’ve walked everywhere like I always do and haven’t seen the need to use a scooter. But I’m not fat. I did see a drunk idiot last night outside of Cedar Door hop on one to take a video selfie. So I guess they are useful for that.

 

 

[triplehorn 2664]

I had pole position at a red light on a two lane one way street facing downhill when what looked like a homeless dude on a green e-scooter turned onto the road in front of me and started making giant slalom turns across both lanes down the hill.  Saw another homeless dude running off with a dead scooter up a sidewalk, probably to make a tent pole out of it.  Scooters vs. homeless looks like mutually assured destruction, but homeless probably outlast.

[HRSchenker 2271]

My problem with the scooters is only with the people who ride them that choose to completely ignore traffic laws. Running through stop signs, running red lights, never yielding, riding on the sidewalk, etc. I know, I know cars and trucks do the same but find one car driver who stops at a stop sign and that's more than what I've seen the last few years coming from cyclists in the area. 

[dingleberryswitzer 2724]

Solution: self driving scooters.

[Samson's Wig 3192]

Solution: ban the fucking scooters, kids and tourists learn how to drive or use the Uber app.

[utee94 15834]

I've had some pretty terrifying Uber drivers, so that one won't work either. Unless it's a self-driving Uber, which would be fine.

[ajax 2618]

Congestion pricing is coming to NYC and possibly SF, which means fewer cabs and Ubers will be available.

 

Quote

New York City has a new plan to place tolls on some of its busiest public streets in hopes of relieving paralyzing Manhattan traffic—a move that could increase pressure on San Francisco to follow suit.

San Francisco has considered so-called “congestion pricing,” a toll that would dispel traffic during the busiest times on key roadways, for nearly a decade, going back to City Hall’s 2010 study examining the feasibility of time-sensitive tolls on downtown streets.

Quote

Starting in 2021, drivers will pay between $10 and $15 to access Manhattan’s central business district (CBD)—loosely defined as the area below 60th Street in the borough—during busy hours.

https://sf.curbed.com/2019/4/3/18293205/san-francisco-congestion-pricing-traffic-tolls-new-york