Baytown Cop kills Pregnant Woman

[Neonmoon 38130]

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/14/us/texas-officer-shoots-woman/index.html

Quote

 

A shaky cell phone video captured the moments before a Texas police officer shot and killed a woman who claimed she was pregnant.A family member identified the woman as Pamela Shantay Turner. Police Lt. Steve Dorris said Turner was not pregnant.

The officer was patrolling an apartment complex in the Houston suburb of Baytown late Monday when he saw a woman he knew from previous encounters, Baytown police said.The officer knew the 45-year-old woman had outstanding warrants and started trying to arrest her, police said.

A witness' cell phone video showed the woman yelling at the officer: "I'm walking! I'm actually walking to my house!" the woman screams at him. She later says the officer is "harassing" her. The video shows the officer apparently trying to handcuff the woman, but she breaks free. The officer then fires his Taser stun gun, and the woman slowly drops to the ground.

A scuffle ensues. The woman keeps yelling "Why?" but the officer isn't heard answering.As the officer keeps trying to arrest the woman, she flails her arms and yells, "I'm pregnant!" The struggle continued, and according to Baytown police, the woman "was able to gain control of the Taser and used it on the officer."

In the video, the woman appears to reach for the officer, who stands back and fires five shots toward her. Baytown police said the officer tried to give first aid to the woman, but she was pronounced dead at the scene.

Floyd Rubin, who shares two children with Turner, told CNN that police have not shared any details with his family about the shooting.

Turner's sister Antoinette told CNN affiliate KPRC that the woman has two children in their 20s and three grandchildren. The officer's name has not been released, but Baytown police said he is an 11-year veteran of the department. He is on paid administrative leave as authorities investigate.

"The Harris County District Attorney's Office is on scene and assisting in the investigation, as is normal in these types of incidents," police said. Police are asking the person who shot the cell phone video to come forward to help with the investigation, Dorris said.

But he said it was "unfortunate" that the witness shared footage of the killing online."It's unfortunate that somebody take a tragic incident like this and start posting it on social media," he said. "That's extremely disrespectful for everybody involved."

 

Cop killed someone. Blue Line caught covering it up. 

[Augustus 3061]

I can't help but think it's a bad idea to wrestle a taser gun away from a police officer and use it on him, as he's attempting to arrest you.

It's like she's never seen the internet.

[Huckleberry 33096]

I'm not watching any video at work, but I don't see in the quoted portion what they're covering up.

Now the comment about the video being released is standard police bullshit. Yeah, it's unfortunate that the public knows the facts. Real shame.

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

So, was she actually pregnant?  Did she actually have warrants?  There's a lot missing here.  

[MAROON 445]

8 minutes ago, Longhornfan1024 said:

So, was she actually pregnant?  Did she actually have warrants?  There's a lot missing here.  

appears no to pregnancy and yes to two warrants.  One for allegedly assaulting the apartment complex manager and another for throwing a log through the windshield of a car. Bad decisions like deaths, sometimes come in threes.

Edited May 15, 2019 by MAROON

[South Austin 52600]

15 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

Now the comment about the video being released is standard police bullshit. Yeah, it's unfortunate that the public knows the facts. Real shame.

That's the quote that pissed me off.  The only people that think it's disrespectful to post the video are the police.  I'm sure the victim's family is fine with shining a light on this incident. 

[Brisketexan 105332]

I'm no friend of police use of deadly force.

BUT....she wasn't pregnant.  She did have warrants out for her.

What this case stands for is another example of how shitty it is that law enforcement is our first line of mental health care.  She was schizophrenic.  People in psychosis make bad decisions -- that's kinda the thing with psychosis.  Yes, she fought back against an armed cop and tried to hurt him.  That is the kind of thing that can get you shot.

The intersection of armed law enforcement and people in a state of psychosis is often a bad outcome waiting to happen.

[Lhorn 4960]

Not interested in watching anyone get shot but if she got to his taser and attempted to use it on him, all bets are off. She not likely to kill him with a taser but if she incapacitated him with a taser, she can easily get to his gun.

 

[Augustus 3061]

7 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

I'm no friend of police use of deadly force.

BUT....she wasn't pregnant.  She did have warrants out for her.

What this case stands for is another example of how shitty it is that law enforcement is our first line of mental health care.  She was schizophrenic.  People in psychosis make bad decisions -- that's kinda the thing with psychosis.  Yes, she fought back against an armed cop and tried to hurt him.  That is the kind of thing that can get you shot.

The intersection of armed law enforcement and people in a state of psychosis is often a bad outcome waiting to happen.

I agree with you, although the fact that she's been diagnosed with schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean she was having a psychotic episode.

I've worked with a lot of schizophrenics in substance abuse treatment, and they've pretty much run the gamut of lucidity/functionality.  Who knows what was going on with her that day?

 

[TwiceHorn 31535]

13 minutes ago, Augustus said:

I agree with you, although the fact that she's been diagnosed with schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean she was having a psychotic episode.

I've worked with a lot of schizophrenics in substance abuse treatment, and they've pretty much run the gamut of lucidity/functionality.  Who knows what was going on with her that day?

 

Aside from the warrants, schizophrenia, and fake pregnancy, wrasslin with a cop and taking one of his weapons starts to push this towards justifiable. Not quite justified. 

Be interesting to see how this would have shaken out had the cop been unarmed. That is an interesting thought experiment for all of these shootings. Ask if the public would have been greatly endangered had the cop not been emboldened to engage with arms. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Brisketexan 105332]

53 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Be interesting to see how this would have shaken out had the cop been unarmed. That is an interesting thought experiment for all of these shootings. Ask if the public would have been greatly endangered had the cop not been emboldened to engage with arms. 

Excellent point.  When you show up at a fight, and you bring a gun, you know what it just became?  A gunfight.

Figuring out how to get people in custody safely -- even if it takes time, and the person is disrespecting your authority and whatnot -- should be the highest, most praise-worthy skill out there.  If she is a known schizophrenic, having an episode, the BEST path is to make sure others are safe (tell them to go inside and close their doors), and call for backup and work on talking her into peaceful custody.

I'm not saying that's what the law obligates you to do.  It's not.  But it's what any notion of smart and decent policy obligates you to do.

[Brisketexan 105332]

16 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

There is an adage we non-police folk that train in things other than guns use.

If all you have is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

The point is, sometimes your problem is a nail and you should be great with a hammer, but more often than not it might be a nitting issue and you need a needle or a bolt issue and you need a wrench.

What that translates to is for self defense you need a tool chest of abilities. Few cops have them or don't opt to determine the proper issue and/or tool type if they do.

 

What I wish more folks would realize is just because you SPECIALIZE in one thing, that doesn't mean that way is the only way to solve problems.  In fact, you better serve your client/patient/citizens when you can consider and utilize all the options.

I'm a fighting lawyer....but I solve a lot of problems for my clients by negotiation, the political process, even the legislative process.  Define your goal (for a cop, it should be "take this person into custody"), and then consider all of the possible ways that you can achieve that goal.

A doctor may be a great surgeon, but he's a great doctor if he looks at a patient's problem and goal, and evaluates medical/non-surgical solutions.

A cop may be a badass, and a crack shot, but he's a great cop if he gets through his career having successfully navigated challenging situations without ever firing his weapon.  Hell, for self-defense, in most situations the BEST path is "retreat to a safe distance."  

Good post, BurntEyes.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Brisketexan

[crash_davis 23115]

i hate cops as much as the next guy but if you are going to fight with a police officer and take his weapon, be it his gun or his taser, you are going to get shot, most likely multiple times.

not saying she deserved it but it sounds like she had bad decision issues to begin with.

 

[RPM 26353]

FTP is my motto, but I'm having a very hard time finding outrage in this case. If she had taken care of the warrants he wouldn't have tried to arrest her. If she hadn't taken his taser he wouldn't have shot her. She was in full control of her destiny.

[Brisketexan 105332]

3 minutes ago, RPM said:

FTP is my motto, but I'm having a very hard time finding outrage in this case. If she had taken care of the warrants he wouldn't have tried to arrest her. If she hadn't taken his taser he wouldn't have shot her. She was in full control of her destiny.

Well, except for the fact that she may not have been in full control of her faculties.  People in active psychosis make bad decisions -- that's kinda the thing with psychosis.

I think most of us would agree that we don't want cops to shoot crazy people unless it's absolutely necessary to protect the life of someone else.  So, we should approach dealing with crazy people in ways that minimize the risk of creating a situation where a cop needs to shoot a crazy person.  That also means that you begin your interaction with them differently than you would with a rational actor.

[TwiceHorn 31535]

7 minutes ago, RPM said:

FTP is my motto, but I'm having a very hard time finding outrage in this case. If she had taken care of the warrants he wouldn't have tried to arrest her. If she hadn't taken his taser he wouldn't have shot her. She was in full control of her destiny.

File Transfer Protocol? 

[Beau Vine 54428]

3 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

Police are asking the person who shot the cell phone video to come forward to help with the investigation, Dorris said.

But he said it was "unfortunate" that the witness shared footage of the killing online."It's unfortunate that somebody take a tragic incident like this and start posting it on social media," he said. "That's extremely disrespectful for everybody involved."

Yeah, no fucking chance that person comes forward "to help the investigation," especially now.

[RPM 26353]

9 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, except for the fact that she may not have been in full control of her faculties.  People in active psychosis make bad decisions -- that's kinda the thing with psychosis.

I think most of us would agree that we don't want cops to shoot crazy people unless it's absolutely necessary to protect the life of someone else.  So, we should approach dealing with crazy people in ways that minimize the risk of creating a situation where a cop needs to shoot a crazy person.  That also means that you begin your interaction with them differently than you would with a rational actor.

I didn't see anything about her having mental issues. That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Cops shouldn't have to be the reaction arm of mental healthcare. But from the story, he recognized her as having outstanding warrants. He had no choice but to arrest her.

[Longhorn Al 440]

Cops need to bring back an old school tool for these situations: a net.  Wrap these psychos up before they start grabbing your pistols.

[Brisketexan 105332]

44 minutes ago, RPM said:

He had no choice but to arrest her.

That's not entirely true.  He did have a choice of whether to arrest her then and there, under those circumstances.  Again, if there's a better and safer time and place to take a mentally ill person into custody, that should be what they do.

[RPM 26353]

38 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

He did have a choice of whether to arrest her then and there, under those circumstances.  Again, if there's a better and safer time and place to take a mentally ill person into custody, that should be what they do.

No, Brisket. He didn't. I guess he could pick and choose which laws and warrants to enforce, but that's not how it works. You keep bringing mental illness into play. What evidence of mental illness are you using, or is it just a gut feeling?

[Neonmoon 38130]

I watched the video and I didn’t see her grab his taser and try to taser him. I definitely don’t think deadly force was warranted whatsoever. 

The hammer and nail post is spot on. If he didn’t have a gun, if he actually believed his life was in danger, there are other options than kill. 

[Clintonaldo 2576]

She fought the law and the law won. 

[Brisketexan 105332]

24 minutes ago, RPM said:

No, Brisket. He didn't. I guess he could pick and choose which laws and warrants to enforce, but that's not how it works. You keep bringing mental illness into play. What evidence of mental illness are you using, or is it just a gut feeling?

Time and place of execution on a warrant is absolutely within an officer's discretion.  Come on, man.

And from the reports I've read, she was being treated for schizophrenia, and it is REPORTED (note -- remains to be verified) that the officer was familiar with her AND with the fact that she was schizophrenic.

[RPM 26353]

Got links? I'm not arguing with you, I just haven't seen anything that even suggests that was the case. It very well may be. But getting back to the warrant, he couldn't just let her walk. She could have taken care of them and this never would have happened.

[Brisketexan 105332]

1 minute ago, RPM said:

Got links? I'm not arguing with you, I just haven't seen anything that even suggests that was the case. It very well may be. But getting back to the warrant, he couldn't just let her walk. She could have taken care of them and this never would have happened.

KPRC and KHOU stories online.

And he doesn't have to just "let her walk."  He can realize that she's agitated as shit -- which happens with crazy people -- and work on coming up with a different time and place to deal with her.  That doesn't mean "next month, at Luby's."  It could simply be "after backup arrives, and after she's safely away from other folks."  And talk to her.  Talk her down.  The goal is to take her into custody peacefully.  Patience is the most important tool in his toolbox, not his authority.;

[RPM 26353]

OK, no links. I don't have time to hunt down a story while I'm at work. I'll check after I get home.

[TwiceHorn 31535]

10 minutes ago, RPM said:

Got links? I'm not arguing with you, I just haven't seen anything that even suggests that was the case. It very well may be. But getting back to the warrant, he couldn't just let her walk. She could have taken care of them and this never would have happened.

That's all true, but brisket is absolutely right that while warrants give good and sufficient grounds for immediate arrest, they don't require that an officer do it at the first opportunity.  It's just another element of discretion that they can exercise.

Which is why I advocate the mental exercise of what if he did it differently.

I fear that too often existence of warrants is viewed as carte blanche by many officers to go RoboCop® on people. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[RPM 26353]

2 hours ago, RPM said:

Cops shouldn't have to be the reaction arm of mental healthcare.

Just in case you didn't see what I said earlier.

[Not that Bob 739]

4 hours ago, Brisketexan said:

What this case stands for is another example of how shitty it is that law enforcement is our first line of mental health care. 

I worked in direct care in mental health for 5+ years, and this is the most insightful thing I have read about the current state of mental health care. Brisket, I've read your posts since 360 and this sentence is at the top of your work. 

[Brisketexan 105332]

Just now, Not that Bob said:

I worked in direct care in mental health for 5+ years, and this is the most insightful thing I have read about the current state of mental health care. Brisket, I've read your posts since 360 and this sentence is at the top of your work. 

Bozo Casanova's thoughts on this are much better and more detailed than mine.  Wish he would show up on this thread.

[Texas_Rocks 347]

Damn video and fake babies. Without all of that the cop could have easily claimed that the fetus made “furtive movements”.

[TwiceHorn 31535]

I'm fairly sure that even if we had a better system for mental health, cops would still be a first-line interface with the system.

[Not that Bob 739]

In the past we just "locked 'em up." There were State Hospitals  and State Schools all over the place. I don't remember exactly how many, but 10's of thousands were locked up. Then, with things like "Free the Slow" and "least restrictive environment" the pendulum swung the other way, which sounds great, but to a large extent we just put them on the streets. Not so "freeing".  I don't know the answer.  

[RPM 26353]

Had a few minutes so I ran down the KPRC story. This is from an eyewitness:

Quote

“She said, ‘Get off of me. I’m pregnant,’ and (then) he turned around and stung her," Carr said. "She took (the Taser) from him and shot him. And that’s when you turn around and he says, ‘Bam, bam, bam,’ and just shot her like that."

I did see where a family member said she was on schizo meds. Was the cop aware of this? If so, then a softer approach would be the way to go. From what I saw on the tape everything was fine until she suddenly started fighting.

Now you can debate whether the cop should have done his job and enforce the law or just let a person with 3 warrants (2 criminal mischief, one assault resulting in bodily injury) go free and continue to terrorize the neighborhood. What if she beat the shite out of someone? What if she vandalized somebody's car? They would be all over HPD and that cop for not doing their job.

Go back and look at my record of posting about police. I'm not normally on their side and almost never in excessive force situations. This one is different.

Our mental healthcare system needs a massive overhaul, but we can't even get children covered by health insurance as it is.

[TwiceHorn 31535]

47 minutes ago, Not that Bob said:

In the past we just "locked 'em up." There were State Hospitals  and State Schools all over the place. I don't remember exactly how many, but 10's of thousands were locked up. Then, with things like "Free the Slow" and "least restrictive environment" the pendulum swung the other way, which sounds great, but to a large extent we just put them on the streets. Not so "freeing".  I don't know the answer.  

Yeah, the new paradigm became "care in the community."  We don't want to go back to the old way, I don't think.  There's a happy medium.  It's a worldwide problem.

[mulletpelini 5216]

If you're gonna use a gun, how bout a net gun.  

[RPM 26353]

Unless she was walking around with a sign that said "I'm schizophrenic and not in control of my faculties" , how is a cop supposed to know?

I get it. Cops shouldn't be the front line in mental healthcare. Why wasn't family escorting her? Why didn't she take care of her warrants? Why didn't her family make sure she did?

But blame it all on the cop for defending himself from someone that attacked him and took his taser then shot him with it. Totally the cops fault.

[Lhorn 4960]

I’d agree that the best strategy to take someone down is waiting for backup and doing it with numbers. I don’t think 1 on 2 or 1 on 3 it would likely get to a situation where the LEO feels that his life is endangered. I’d be surprised if that plan would be practical much of the time. The person likely isn’t waiting around for your backup. In this situation where she’s outside of her apartment, you don’t want to let her get to her apartment because she might have weapons or assistance. Being mentally ill probably makes it less likely that she can be talked down. 

Wonder what the departments policy is about such an apprehension?  While we can second guess the LEO, it wouldn’t surprise me to learn that what he did was with within guideline as far as how he approached her. 

[RPM 26353]

3 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

1.How did he know she had warrants?

2.She attacked him? We sure about that?

3.Is a warrant a death worthy crime?

4.Were those warrants a result of mental illness? Did she even have the faculty to know she had them?

5.Does she even have family to take care of her? It so can they afford the fiduciary aspects of the warrents?

6.Is it her fault he sucks at hand to hand and got his weapon taken?

 

1.Story said he was aware she had warrants. It's called a computer.

2. You obviously did not watch the video or choose to ignore it.

3. Taking a weapon away from a cop and shooting him with it usually is.

4. Unknown

5. Story said she has multiple family members. It costs nothing to sit it out in jail.

6. Yes. She shouldn't have resisted arrest.

 

You can SJW this all you want. The cop was not at fault in this one.

[hayden_horn 11365]

6 minutes ago, RPM said:

1.Story said he was aware she had warrants. It's called a computer.

2. You obviously did not watch the video or choose to ignore it.

3. Taking a weapon away from a cop and shooting him with it usually is.

4. Unknown

5. Story said she has multiple family members. It costs nothing to sit it out in jail.

6. Yes. She shouldn't have resisted arrest.

 

You can SJW this all you want. The cop was not at fault in this one.

sure he was.

nasa has been attributed the quote "failure is not an option." though it's a misappropriation, that was the mentality.

this should be the mentality of cops. when a suspect dies, that's a failure. now, when it gets to the point where the cop thinks his/her life in danger, we can understand the decision tree. shoot to kill is pretty much it.

but there were things that led to that point that were entirely in the control of the cop. one of those things might be retreat and observe. one of those things might actually be "let the suspect go for now."

that's the whole mentality behind abandoning high-speed chases, due to the danger they represent to the public at large, but also to the cops in pursuit.

cops do not have to respond to "no" or "fuck you" or "fuck off, pig" with violence. he engaged her. she did not represent a danger to herself or others at the time, she just claimed the cop was harassing her on her way home. and so what if she goes home? wait her out, try and arrest her later. this woman was not armed until after she was tazed by the cop for non-compliance. that's the red line for cops - that non-compliance. it turns a switch in their head. teachers face non-compliance in the classroom every day. my wife doesn't have to shoot he kid that runs out of the classroom who is a behavior problem. they deescalate and handle the situation in as calm a way as possible.  that's how they solve problems.

burnteyes is spot on with the hammer/nail thing. sometimes, it just takes no tool at all, just a soft cloth. take it easy. calm down the situation, do not escalate. i don't think that's in the cop rulebook, i guess.

[RPM 26353]

3 minutes ago, BurntEyes said:

Okay we've established he knew about her history. Which means he should have been aware of her mental health issues.

You're incorrect about being talked down.

Brisket already covered the warrant issue and lack of requirement to arrest her immediately.

So goes into her home she's a threat to nobody outside and maybe her family can talk her down.

It also allows time for a back up to arrive.

I'm getting tired of debating people who think the hammer is the only tool available.

It's not.

She had an illness.

Her illness got her a death sentence.

 

Yup, you're deep in SJW turf. Anyone that disagrees with you is a horrible person. Got it.

Cop wasn't the bad guy here for once. Sorry bout that.

[RPM 26353]

Let's do a little experiment @BurntEyes . You run out and get 3 warrants on you including one for assault with injury. Now when a cop stops you and tries to arrest you, tell him he's harassing you, you're going home and resist arrest. Go ahead and grab his weapon and shoot him while you're at it. I'm interested in what the result will be.

[ztejas 43537]

Don't tase me hoe?

[RPM 26353]

Just now, BurntEyes said:

I don't suffer from mental illness.

Are you sure?

[Nivek 16986]

I agree with you, although the fact that she's been diagnosed with schizophrenia doesn't necessarily mean she was having a psychotic episode.
I've worked with a lot of schizophrenics in substance abuse treatment, and they've pretty much run the gamut of lucidity/functionality.  Who knows what was going on with her that day?
 

And then you log on here?

[RPM 26353]

1 minute ago, BurntEyes said:

Wow. We are done, you and I.

So not gonna tase a cop. Got it.

[Texaus 377]

The taser was the right tool for the job. If the cop can’t incapacitate and safely arrest an unarmed woman with his taser, it shoulda come down to fisticuffs and a billy club. Shooting her was a pussy move.

[Lhorn 4960]

You can second guess the LEO action based on the fact that she had a history of mental illness but what does the department’s policy say about how this should be handled?  I be surprised if the LEO is given the option of not arresting her because she MIGHT not understand the consequences of her actions. So why bring it up.  Mentally ill or not she got warrants and she’s gonna get arrested. Then the system decides how her mental illness effects her punishment. 

I’d also be surprised if the law agrees with you that it would be better for them or her to allow her to get behind her locked door before trying to arrest her. She wasn’t going to comply which means they break down the door, guns drawn.  What could go wrong?

Edited May 16, 2019 by Lhorn

[hayden_horn 11365]

4 minutes ago, Lhorn said:

You can second guess the LEO action based on the fact that she had a history of mental illness but what does the department’s policy say about how this should be handled?  I be surprised if the LEO is given the option of not arresting her because she MIGHT not understand the consequences of her actions. So why bring it up.  Mentally ill or not she got warrants and she’s gonna get arrested. Then the system decides how her mental illness effects her punishment. 

I’d also be surprised if the law agrees with you that it would be better for them or her to allow her to get to her behind her locked door before trying to arrest her. She wasn’t going to comply which means they break down the door, guns drawn.  What could go wrong?

um, so why do they have to break down the door, guns drawn? that seems like a good way to get someone killed.