Houston Prop B deemed unconstitutional

[Storm the Field 5294]

[elfenix 34232]

huh.

[DaysOff 7947]

If has to do with cops that sounds good to me. Although I don't know what's going on.

[South Austin 52475]

1 minute ago, DaysOff said:

Although I don't know what's going on.

Somebody strenuously objected.

[Storm the Field 5294]

For those of you that don't know, Prop B was a ballot measure in the last election that would have required pay parity between HPD and HFD.

So, a 20-year Captain in HFD would have to be paid the same as a 20-year Captain in HPD.

It passed, but was going to cost the city upwards of $100M/year. Hiring freezes, layoff notices, and lawsuits have been the main result so far.

It's also the main issue driving Tony Buzbee's run for Mayor in the next election. He has been representing HFD.

[Brisketexan 105097]

I'd be curious to see the briefing, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Article XI Section 5 problem was that it created an unconstitutional debt (that is, it created the liability, but didn't fund it):

Quote

and no debt shall ever be created by any city, unless at the same time provision be made to assess and collect annually a sufficient sum to pay the interest thereon and creating a sinking fund of at least two per cent.

If someone has the cliffs notes, I'd prefer to read that.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

The proposition was fairly weak in its logic that it was saying that a Fire Captain was equal to a Police Captain because they shared the same title. To my knowledge, there was no analysis on whether the two roles were equal in responsibilities.  And it was also setting up a problem that based on other compensation, fire fighters would overall be paid more than police.

I believe fire fighters were going to get a 25% bump, but mainly the senior members would receive the bulk of it. They had previously turned down a 9% raise.

The real comparison should have been whether the fire employees were receiving compensation based on similar cities and factor in Houston cost of living. What the police earn or don't earn should have little to do with them. Different job and requirements.

No shock that a court had to step in.

[Storm the Field 5294]

I wonder what percentage of the electorate voted for it because "of course I support our hero firefighters" without realizing that it requires a lot of money to implement.

I'd wager that less than the half the people who voted yes would vote for a follow-up measure regarding a funding mechanism.

[Trey3216 15346]

8 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

I wonder what percentage of the electorate voted for it because "of course I support our hero firefighters" without realizing that it requires a lot of money to implement.

I'd wager that less than the half the people who voted yes would vote for a follow-up measure regarding a funding mechanism.

The Firefighters' Union is the biggest supporter of it, even though they were going to have to layoff a bunch of firefighters and halt the advancement of cadets that were going to Fire School.   

 

https://abc13.com/politics/no-need-for-layoffs-after-prop-b-ruling-mayor-says/5301491/

[Lazarus Bocanegra 304]

17 minutes ago, Storm the Field said:

I wonder what percentage of the electorate voted for it because "of course I support our hero firefighters" without realizing that it requires a lot of money to implement.

I'd wager that less than the half the people who voted yes would vote for a follow-up measure regarding a funding mechanism.

I did, but I was hoping they'd fire cops

[El Diablo 4232]

The fired department?

 

[Js1 85313]

So a union is relying on Texas courts to save them?

HAHAHAHAAHA.

They're fucked.  Every level up to the SCOTX will rule against them.  

[TwiceHorn 31452]

2 minutes ago, Js1 said:

So a union is relying on Texas courts to save them?

HAHAHAHAAHA.

They're fucked.  Every level up to the SCOTX will rule against them.  

Don't think so.  Seems like bad form for the HPD Union to sue over this.  But HPD and the City wound up allied and HFD came out on the shit end of the stick.

I have some sympathy for the firefighters, and less for the popo, but they're bankrupting Texas cities.

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

29 minutes ago, Js1 said:

So a union is relying on Texas courts to save them?

HAHAHAHAAHA.

They're fucked.  Every level up to the SCOTX will rule against them.  

Police and Firefighter unions are the only unions that aren't considered unions by Republicans. Cops and Firefighters are troops, and according to the chart Respecting the Troops trumps Fucking the Unions. It's confusing, but that's the law. 

[Deej 76759]

1 hour ago, Storm the Field said:

For those of you that don't know, Prop B was a ballot measure in the last election that would have required pay parity between HPD and HFD.

So, a 20-year Captain in HFD would have to be paid the same as a 20-year Captain in HPD.

 

Ridiculous. Everyone knows there is a lot more work involved in committing and covering up murders than fighting fires. Of course the cops should be paid more. 

[RPM 26318]

Surprised there isn't a civil servant system in place that pays according to rank across the board like the military.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Houston is great at having votes, and then, when they don't go the way the city wants, figuring out a way to invalidate them. 

How many times did light rail lose?  

[Js1 85313]

4 minutes ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Houston is great at having votes, and then, when they don't go the way the city wants, figuring out a way to invalidate them. 

This is the 2nd time I've read this.

How did Turner/the City "figure out a way" to invalidate it?  A judge declared the proposition was against the Texas Constitution.

[Fuck Tim Beck 3815]

I'm just here to say fuck the police. What were we talking about again? 

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

1 minute ago, Js1 said:

This is the 2nd time I've read this.

How did Turner/the City "figure out a way" to invalidate it?  A judge declared the proposition was against the Texas Constitution.

Yep, sua sponte.  No chance the thing was worded so that the unconstitutional argument would be available if it passed.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Liquor and Poker

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

54 minutes ago, thestud said:

That’s not even close to an accurate synopsis. I suggest reading into it in depth, especially if you’re a Houston taxpayer.

I’ve never promoted and only have 6 years on the job with my current department, and I make $3900/year more than a 21 year veteran Senior HFD Captain. To achieve Senior Captain rank you have to have promoted 3 times. Cadets coming out of the fire academy are eligible for food stamps, wic and Medicaid. It’s already hard enough to find people willing to do the job, even harder to find ones willing to live in poverty and do the job.

 

 

Come on. First year HFD earn a 42K base.  That's poverty? Unless they're supporting a household of 6, they don't receive food stamps.  And if they have a spouse and 4 kids, wtf are they doing as a new firefighter.  And why do they need Medicaid?   Or are you claiming that HFD employees do not receive medical benefits?  

And let's look at comparables:

HPD: 5100 headcount,  HFD: 4100 headcount

HPD Captains: 41  HFD "equivalents": 126

HPD lieutenants: 213  HFD "equivalents": 237

Police pay for their own equipment, fire fighters don't.

HPD cover sick co-workers without extra pay, HFD pays OT for off-duty firefighters to replace them.

HFD work 9-day, 24-hour shifts per month.  Cops would jump all over that opportunity to work 1/3 of the month including sleep. And have plenty of time for outside work.

Not to mention that HFD has rejected previous pay raises so its bs when they complain that their salaries haven't risen at the same level as police. Besides they get a slightly better pension.

 

I have a lot of respect for the fire dept but they have horrible representation. They're going to end up with nothing again because this was a poor plan from the beginning.

 

 

[irishtexan 11518]

 

2 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Come on. First year HFD earn a 42K base.  That's poverty? Unless they're supporting a household of 6, they don't receive food stamps.  And if they have a spouse and 4 kids, wtf are they doing as a new firefighter.  And why do they need Medicaid?   Or are you claiming that HFD employees do not receive medical benefits?  

And let's look at comparables:

HPD: 5100 headcount,  HFD: 4100 headcount

HPD Captains: 41  HFD "equivalents": 126

HPD lieutenants: 213  HFD "equivalents": 237

Police pay for their own equipment, fire fighters don't.

HPD cover sick co-workers without extra pay, HFD pays OT for off-duty firefighters to replace them.

HFD work 9-day, 24-hour shifts per month.  Cops would jump all over that opportunity to work 1/3 of the month including sleep. And have plenty of time for outside work.

Not to mention that HFD has rejected previous pay raises so its bs when they complain that their salaries haven't risen at the same level as police. Besides they get a slightly better pension.

 

I have a lot of respect for the fire dept but they have horrible representation. They're going to end up with nothing again because this was a poor plan from the beginning.

 

 

Sounds like those cops should have chosen to be firefighters. I guess someone made all those cops be cops?

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

Just now, irishtexan said:

 

Sounds like those cops should have chosen to be firefighters. I guess someone made all those cops be cops?

God is the one who makes cops. To protect and serve. 

[RPM 26318]

24 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

 

Sounds like those cops should have chosen to be firefighters. I guess someone made all those cops be cops?

When was the last time a firefighter got to shoot somebody and get a paid vacation? Hardly a tough choice.

[Hanrahan 1306]

Yep, sua sponte.  No chance the thing was worded so that the unconstitutional argument would be available if it passed.

I guess you didn’t bother did read the wording before criticizing it because it copied the charter amendment drafted by the firefighter union verbatim.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

42 minutes ago, Hanrahan said:

 

I guess you didn’t bother did read the wording before criticizing it because it copied the charter amendment drafted by the firefighter union verbatim.

 

Fair point - I had not, and that's something they should have seen coming.  You are right.

Did the city allege that the proposition was unconstitutional when stating their case to the voters?  I am assuming it got petitioned/signatured onto the ballot and the city didn't put it there.  

 

[NeverMarryAStripper 21901]

The city has already made about $25 million in payments for back pay under the proposition. I wonder if they can get those back now.

The only reason to increase fire fighter pay is if the city has a shortage of people who want to be fire fighters. Free market and all that. Apparently, there is no shortage of fire fighters so their pay scale must be acceptable.

 

[mycox 582]

1 hour ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Fair point - I had not, and that's something they should have seen coming.  You are right.

Did the city allege that the proposition was unconstitutional when stating their case to the voters?  I am assuming it got petitioned/signatured onto the ballot and the city didn't put it there.  

 

This is what was on the ballot. 
https://ballotpedia.org/Houston,_Texas,_Proposition_B,_City_Firefighters_Charter_Amendment_(November_2018)

Back in the early early 2000's HPD agreed to raises in exchange for pension and benefit cuts, while firefighters rejected the raises and continued to bulk up their pension. This lead to the 25 percent pay gap between the two entities. In 2017 Houston was going bankrupt paying the firefighter pensions, so Mayor Turner went to the Texas Legislature and they approved the city's pension reform plans.

Firefighters voted down 4% pay increase in 2014. A 9.5 percent raise over three years 9.5 percent salary increase was proposed earlier in 2018.

How the hell is a city supposed to find $100 million dollars without layoffs? 

Does HFD deserve more pay now that their pensions have been reduced? yes
Should it cost Houston $100 million a year when it wasn't budgeted? no
Are both the city and HFD union being assholes? yes

[Blotto 23498]

This doesnt seem like the kind of issue that should be decided via city wide election  when the vast majority of voters probably had no idea of the measure when they stepped in the ballot box in Nov.

Its foolish to take a position either way without a full understanding of the difference in pension plans as well as the financial impact on the city, and the mechanisms that the city has to cover the 100 million dollar annual budget gap. 

I understand the argument that firefighters feel like they got fucked after their pensions were reduced, but I see no language in the ballot proposal that tries to equate "total compensation" of HPD vs HFD. Is it possible with equal pay, that HFD employees now enjoy better total compensation than HPD emoyees due to a pension differences? It's impossible to tell by the ballot language.

So the voters have no way of making an informed decision and will vote largely on the emotion generated by the wording of the proposition. That seems fucked up when the vast majority of voters were probably there to vote Beto vs Cruz and had zero understanding of the facts/history  that caused propB to be on the ballot in the first place.

 

[mycox 582]

^^^exactly. Most people who voted for Prob B did so without any research or blindly voted because firefighters are good people who risk their lives.

 Firefighters gathered more than 32000 signatures on petitions, so that's how it go on the ballot.

[Murfdogg21 4412]

There was something else about HFD putting their pensions in a wiser investment vehicle than HPD that left their pensions with the City of Houston. Then Houston was in some way trying to raid HFD’s retirement fund or cut other funding to HFD to offset the different values of their respective pension/retirement funds. 

I thought the solution would be to reduce some cops’ salaries while increasing most HFD salaries until they were approximately equivalent. 

[DaysOff 7947]

The problem is right, wrong or indifferent HFD forewent multiple payraises in order to keep their retirement intact. They knew they were sacrificing money in the short term so they could benefit greater in the end. Sly Turdner sought their endorsement and backing on the grounds that he wouldn’t go after their pension. One of his first acts after elected was to go after and reduce their pension. Can you blame them for now wanting to be equally compensated?

Those guys seem as dumb as airline pilots.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

Is Turner just a bad guy?  I have only lived here for 8 months or so and I have never heard as much vitriol about a mayor outside NYC.  I don’t remember hearing much negative about his predecessors - mostly positive stuff actually, especially about Bill White.  But I lived in Dallas at the time.  

[Hanrahan 1306]

13 hours ago, thestud said:

The problem is right, wrong or indifferent HFD forewent multiple payraises in order to keep their retirement intact. They knew they were sacrificing money in the short term so they could benefit greater in the end. Sly Turdner sought their endorsement and backing on the grounds that he wouldn’t go after their pension. One of his first acts after elected was to go after and reduce their pension. Can you blame them for now wanting to be equally compensated?

Yes, because state law requires that firefighter compensation be tied to other firefighter compensation, not to police compensation.  And that's one of the reasons the judge declared the charter amendment void.

[Sandman 3403]

15 hours ago, NeverMarryAStripper said:

 Apparently, there is no shortage of fire fighters so their pay scale must be acceptable.

 

No shit. I always hear that crap about "they do a job that no one else wants to do!". I guess that explains why there's a line down the fucking block when they are accepting applications for the academy. I'm not saying it's a gravy job but let's not act like they're hurting for applicants. People know about the benefits. I worked a shit job at the county jail, that job sucked ass and the pay was horrible. But we always had people waiting for an opening, they wanted the county insurance, pension and the pipe dream of being on patrol one day.

[mycox 582]

1 hour ago, Liquor and Poker said:

Is Turner just a bad guy?  I have only lived here for 8 months or so and I have never heard as much vitriol about a mayor outside NYC.  I don’t remember hearing much negative about his predecessors - mostly positive stuff actually, especially about Bill White.  But I lived in Dallas at the time.  

He's done OK, not great but not bad. Most of that bitching is from the suburbs and because he has a "D" next to his name. Same with the new County Judge.

[Liquor and Poker 3659]

The bitching I hear is decidedly not suburban.  All folks inside the Loop.  

Now that I think about it, mostly not people who voted for him - or even can.  They don’t live in actual Houston.  That’s interesting. 

[Johnny Sack 8397]

The main benefit is working 9 days a month and having the other 21 off.  Most work second jobs because they have plenty of time.

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

1 hour ago, Liquor and Poker said:

The bitching I hear is decidedly not suburban.  All folks inside the Loop.  

Now that I think about it, mostly not people who voted for him - or even can.  They don’t live in actual Houston.  That’s interesting. 

I don't personally hear many people complaining about Turner. Overall I think the city does a good job of taking care of their responsibilities and getting out of the way of the citizens. I know there are examples where that breaks down, and I admit that I have relatively little interaction with city employees.  

 

[TwiceHorn 31452]

15 hours ago, Blotto said:

This doesnt seem like the kind of issue that should be decided via city wide election  when the vast majority of voters probably had no idea of the measure when they stepped in the ballot box in Nov.

Its foolish to take a position either way without a full understanding of the difference in pension plans as well as the financial impact on the city, and the mechanisms that the city has to cover the 100 million dollar annual budget gap. 

I understand the argument that firefighters feel like they got fucked after their pensions were reduced, but I see no language in the ballot proposal that tries to equate "total compensation" of HPD vs HFD. Is it possible with equal pay, that HFD employees now enjoy better total compensation than HPD emoyees due to a pension differences? It's impossible to tell by the ballot language.

So the voters have no way of making an informed decision and will vote largely on the emotion generated by the wording of the proposition. That seems fucked up when the vast majority of voters were probably there to vote Beto vs Cruz and had zero understanding of the facts/history  that caused propB to be on the ballot in the first place.

 

But democracy!!!

Seriously, though.  Straight popular votes have their limitations, and this is one of them.  California's penchant for doing it on a statewide basis is a big part of their problem.

Edited May 16, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Nice Guy Eddie 13511]

Propositions should be required to provide some reasonable expectation of cost to the taxpayers.

Vote to give fire fighters the fair wage they deserve:  Wins with 59%

Vote to give fire fighters the fair wage they deserve, by charging the average Houston taxpayer $100/year:  Loses with 95%

 

 

[tokamak 6422]

2 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Propositions should be required to provide some reasonable expectation of cost to the taxpayers.

Vote to give fire fighters the fair wage they deserve:  Wins with 59%

Vote to give fire fighters the fair wage they deserve, by charging the average Houston taxpayer $100/year:  Loses with 95%

 

 

Yeah the conversation around the original proposition didn't seem to go much beyond "do you support our brave firefighters or not???". Anything beyond the most superficial possible analysis revealed that it was going to cost a bunch of money that the city simply doesn't have.

[Lhorn 4913]

3 minutes ago, tokamak said:

Yeah the conversation around the original proposition didn't seem to go much beyond "do you support our brave firefighters or not???". Anything beyond the most superficial possible analysis revealed that it was going to cost a bunch of money that the city simply doesn't have.

Unfortunately that’s become the norm for those types of things. “Vote for prop 9 if you are in favor of children, healthcare, the elderly, the poor, better roads, first responders.”

Turns our prop 9 allows insurance agencies to reduce payout of claims. (A fictional scenario)

The ads are so disingenuous it’s insulting.  Problem is it seems a large portion of voters believe the nonsense ads.  

[elfenix 34232]

Nm I did read it wrong

[Walden Ponderer 12639]

The important question is, would Houston actually elect Buzbee? Seriously? That's a joke, right?

I'm with Jorge Luis Borges:  "Democracy is an abuse of statistics."

[Hank Scorpio 17729]

Buzbee is going to win. Either that or storm city hall in his tank and take it by force. 

[tokamak 6422]

I've been thinking recently that what Houston needs right now is a batshit arch-aggy mayor. What could possibly go wrong?

His press has been pretty hilarious so far, though. He basically admits in interviews that his reason for running is "I'm fucking rich, so why not?".

[sullhorn 0]

18 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

I don't personally hear many people complaining about Turner. Overall I think the city does a good job of taking care of their responsibilities and getting out of the way of the citizens. I know there are examples where that breaks down, and I admit that I have relatively little interaction with city employees.  

 

I’m in West Memorial.  Between Turner and Lina both getting flood control  dollars passed and then putting it elsewhere, the torches and pitchforks are out in force.

 

also the trash service woes have been pretty dumb.  Turner is a subpar mayor.

[mycox 582]

Can you tell me where the money for flood control is going? You are also telling us Lina Hidalgo decided to divert money after months on the job?

What about the trash service have you not liked? There were issues with the recycling trucks because most were out of service due to mechanical problems. That has been resolved.
 

[Js1 85313]

The amount of people who have found everything to be Lina Hidalgo's fault after 5 months on the job is hilarious.