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Love Your Enemies

TwiceHorn

By TwiceHorn
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Anastasis

Anastasis 23469

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Social scientist Arthur Brooks says you should really think twice before calling someone a liar.

"When you're talking to somebody else, you're not positioned to say that that person is a pathological liar," he says. "What you know, or what you believe, is that person is saying something is untrue — and that's what you should take on."

Brooks' new book is called Love Your Enemies: How Decent People Can Save America from the Culture of Contempt. It aims to guide people on different sides of the political divide to have constructive conversations.

"If you actually want to persuade somebody else, attacking that other person will drive that person farther in the other direction and it will alienate the people who are listening to your interchange," Brooks says. " ... To condemn the person is suboptimal because you will never persuade somebody else that what you're doing is anything more than a character assassination."

Brooks, the president of the American Enterprise Institute, talks about how he thinks we can disagree better, and why he believes "getting along" is a "garbage standard."

 

 

Well shit.  This dude could turn surly politics board into a dataset that could pump out manuscripts for a decade. 

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26443

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Basically, nobody's read their Machiavelli. In The Prince, he advises his reader to either be completely polite to others, or else destroy them. Nothing in between.

People scream and spit when they have no power to destroy, which is tactically unsound.

I do hope you all have a wonderful day.

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XYZ

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7 minutes ago, RDCanecutter said:

Basically, nobody's read their Machiavelli. In The Prince, he advises his reader to either be completely polite to others, or else destroy them. Nothing in between.

People scream and spit when they have no power to destroy, which is tactically unsound.

I do hope you all have a wonderful day.

Did you buy the air cooled VW yet?

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RDCanecutter

RDCanecutter 26443

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3 minutes ago, XYZ said:

Did you buy the air cooled VW yet?

No. I got cancer instead. Seriously. But they think they chopped it all out, which will be awesome if true. I am kinda laying back and enjoying life a month at a time. Maybe if it stays away for a year I'll spring for a Bug. I did at least spring for a set of jack stands and checked the brakes on my non-Bug.

Edited by RDCanecutter
i spel how i want to spel.
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TwiceHorn

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Have to listen to the podcast, but he had some good insight on social media and twitter in particular.  The first interesting observation is that we dehumanize ourselves and then dehumanize others.  He sort of proposed abolishing anonymity, which seems draconian or something, but certainly effective.

He also mentioned that there are three stages to the life of a new communications medium and that we seem to be in the second one, which is damaging.  One analogy was the telephone.  There apparently was a point at which relatively new telephone users barely left their homes.

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NBMisha

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Back when I worked for Evil Oil, our work culture was such that personal attacks such as calling someone a liar, or any other personal criticism, was out of bounds.  Discussions were to be about ideas.  Further, ideas weren't to be attacked, but alternatives offereed, and the discussion then to be taken to the pro's and con's of the various alternatives.  

But all of the above was for "work" topics.  Only after about 2008 did politics become an issue, and we had to regulate what TV channels were on, if any, in the break rooms.

I can't imagine society generally accepting the sort of cultural rules that we had at work.  The "freedom to hate" is too strong.  Somewhere there in the 1.607th ammendment.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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5 hours ago, MaybeACoordinator said:

Typical Surly. Supposed to be a thread about a matter of tremendous importance and we end up talking about banging 2s. Oh well. Doesn’t banging five 2s equal one 10? Or is that just in math?

Why do I get the distinct impression it's actually 5's banging posters who are 2's thinking they're 10's.....

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Nivek

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Have to listen to the podcast, but he had some good insight on social media and twitter in particular.  The first interesting observation is that we dehumanize ourselves and then dehumanize others.  He sort of proposed abolishing anonymity, which seems draconian or something, but certainly effective.
He also mentioned that there are three stages to the life of a new communications medium and that we seem to be in the second one, which is damaging.  One analogy was the telephone.  There apparently was a point at which relatively new telephone users barely left their homes.

This did not seem that insightful to me. Been pretty obvious that since the 90s people were more assholish on the Internet than in real life. The first play in taking a position is to dehumanize, it makes killing the japs and Huns morally acceptable. It makes declarations by the Spanish (in Spanish) to the natives of America acceptable as those heathens needed God.
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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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10 minutes ago, Nivek said:


This did not seem that insightful to me. Been pretty obvious that since the 90s people were more assholish on the Internet than in real life. The first play in taking a position is to dehumanize, it makes killing the japs and Huns morally acceptable. It makes declarations by the Spanish (in Spanish) to the natives of America acceptable as those heathens needed God.

This trend has been going on since about the time of the first Reagan election.  Partisanship has become the game over governing.

A great documentary on the Carter Ford election.  The difference is startling how people treated the opposing candidate, and the supporters of each party.  The fringes have pulled the center of each party away from each other.

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Js1

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10 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Have to listen to the podcast, but he had some good insight on social media and twitter in particular.  The first interesting observation is that we dehumanize ourselves and then dehumanize others.  He sort of proposed abolishing anonymity, which seems draconian or something, but certainly effective.

He also mentioned that there are three stages to the life of a new communications medium and that we seem to be in the second one, which is damaging.  One analogy was the telephone.  There apparently was a point at which relatively new telephone users barely left their homes.

And once phone sex lines started, they had no reason to leave! 

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TwiceHorn

TwiceHorn 31472

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2 hours ago, Nivek said:


This did not seem that insightful to me. Been pretty obvious that since the 90s people were more assholish on the Internet than in real life. The first play in taking a position is to dehumanize, it makes killing the japs and Huns morally acceptable. It makes declarations by the Spanish (in Spanish) to the natives of America acceptable as those heathens needed God.

Dehumanization of others is accepted, the acknowledgement that you dehumanize yourself first I though insightful.

Another thing he mentioned is that contemnacious shitposting actually causes a little dopamine hit.  It's a bit addictive.  People continue to do it even though they acknowledge on a conscious level that it's bad and they may even wish they didn't.

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Nueces River Rat

Nueces River Rat 5539

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9 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Dehumanization of others is accepted, the acknowledgement that you dehumanize yourself first I though insightful.

Another thing he mentioned is that contemnacious shitposting actually causes a little dopamine hit.  It's a bit addictive.  People continue to do it even though they acknowledge on a conscious level that it's bad and they may even wish they didn't.

Twitter and Facebook have put this on overdrive.   And really I have concerns if we have possibly crossed a point of no return.   Honestly I think if we were faced with WW II today with all the events and players being the same, we'd lose.  No one really wants to shake the hand of someone who is on the other side because the Twitter mob will hammer him/her to death even if the goal they seek might be at play or at least they might get part of it.   We are a nation of "get even with them" instead of we won  and  let's find a way to mutually disagree, but move on.  That's why you get reaction bills filed in the State Legislatures across this country such as the Chic-Fil-A bill here in Texas which was a direct response to the City of San Antonio snubbing  Chic Fil A.   I know what I am going to say  here might get me a few curse words, but ok have at it  and let it be a case study on how things have gone to crap.

I fully acknowledge the LBGT community has taken a lot of unnecessary crap over the years from people of all stripes including people who just against things like gay marriage who conveniently flipped the switch before the 2012 and 2016 elections and suddenly supported it.   Me, I really never, ever really cared in the first place and I consider myself a religious person.  But I've never subscribed to the notion the state should be involved in marriage in the first place.    But what some in the  LBGT community are doing now with their new found power is doing exactly what they have long accused the hard core religious right of doing and showing intolerance of those who they disagree with.  I mean they've  chosen Chic Fil A for a reason because it's obviously a very profitable venture and the ownership is very vocal about their christian views .   And for the record as someone who has eaten at Chic Fil A on occasion for about three decades, I've never been asked if I was gay before I placed an order and have been waited on plenty of individuals who I would venture are gay themselves including management.  So I really don't get the vitriol towards Chic Fil A other than it's a social media mob obsession to get even with someone and they are the best face because  of their outward support of christian beliefs.   

 But I bet many (even in the LGBT)  honor business whose  ownership and/or major stockholders contribute to causes or have beliefs which are even harsher towards people in the LBGT community.  I mean if they have major holdings in the Middle East or in Asia, you better check their contributions and   human rights records before you spend a dime in their establishments here in the states or overseas if you are visiting their countries.  I mean there is documented video stuff about what some of those countries do to LGBT people in those countries and you can bet your bottom dollar some of it's being funded by the uber rich who allow the ruling class to stay in power.   The same uber rich who will put on a smile and say they are tolerant here in the states, but when the money makes it to it to it's ultimate destination, it's not the case.

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Helobious

Helobious 9454

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1 hour ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Twitter and Facebook have put this on overdrive.   And really I have concerns if we have possibly crossed a point of no return.   Honestly I think if we were faced with WW II today with all the events and players being the same, we'd lose.  No one really wants to shake the hand of someone who is on the other side because the Twitter mob will hammer him/her to death even if the goal they seek might be at play or at least they might get part of it.   We are a nation of "get even with them" instead of we won  and  let's find a way to mutually disagree, but move on.  That's why you get reaction bills filed in the State Legislatures across this country such as the Chic-Fil-A bill here in Texas which was a direct response to the City of San Antonio snubbing  Chic Fil A.   I know what I am going to say  here might get me a few curse words, but ok have at it  and let it be a case study on how things have gone to crap.

I fully acknowledge the LBGT community has taken a lot of unnecessary crap over the years from people of all stripes including people who just against things like gay marriage who conveniently flipped the switch before the 2012 and 2016 elections and suddenly supported it.   Me, I really never, ever really cared in the first place and I consider myself a religious person.  But I've never subscribed to the notion the state should be involved in marriage in the first place.    But what some in the  LBGT community are doing now with their new found power is doing exactly what they have long accused the hard core religious right of doing and showing intolerance of those who they disagree with.  I mean they've  chosen Chic Fil A for a reason because it's obviously a very profitable venture and the ownership is very vocal about their christian views .   And for the record as someone who has eaten at Chic Fil A on occasion for about three decades, I've never been asked if I was gay before I placed an order and have been waited on plenty of individuals who I would venture are gay themselves including management.  So I really don't get the vitriol towards Chic Fil A other than it's a social media mob obsession to get even with someone and they are the best face because  of their outward support of christian beliefs.   

 But I bet many (even in the LGBT)  honor business whose  ownership and/or major stockholders contribute to causes or have beliefs which are even harsher towards people in the LBGT community.  I mean if they have major holdings in the Middle East or in Asia, you better check their contributions and   human rights records before you spend a dime in their establishments here in the states or overseas if you are visiting their countries.  I mean there is documented video stuff about what some of those countries do to LGBT people in those countries and you can bet your bottom dollar some of it's being funded by the uber rich who allow the ruling class to stay in power.   The same uber rich who will put on a smile and say they are tolerant here in the states, but when the money makes it to it to it's ultimate destination, it's not the case.

The SA mayor (a straight man) said the #1 reason he didn't want Chick fil a in the airport was that there's limited food court options to begin with, and he wanted every restaurant there to be open 7 days a week. It was some of the (also straight) city council members who brought political reasoning into their decision.

But yes continue to blame the gays for everything. Your post is actually a prime example of why we're so divided. People like you blame entire communities of people for things that aren't their fault or that they have little actual power/influence over to begin with. 

Edited by Helobious
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Nueces River Rat

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The SA mayor (a straight man) said the #1 reason he didn't want Chick fil a in the airport was that there's limited food court options to begin with, and he wanted every restaurant there to be open 7 days a week. It was some of the (also straight) city council members who brought political reasoning into their decision.
But yes continue to blame the gays for everything. Your post is actually a prime example of why we're so divided. People like you blame entire communities of people for things that aren't their fault or that they have little actual power/influence over to begin with. 

No where in my post did I blame gays for everything. And back at you as a prime reason we are so divided. From the get go “saying people like you.”

The only reason the Chic Fil A was excluded from the from the contract is a councilman brought it up and not based on it needing to be open for 7 days/365. He used a web story put out by Talking Points Memo citing Chic Fil A’s donations. Look it up! The others jump on it for political expediency and the Mayor even realized he screwed up, but used the cover of the seven days a week needing to be open for a reason to not revisit. Coincidentally he’s in a runoff now in an election he should have ran away with. Also not being open on Sunday not with standing, Chic Fil As in most airports and malls are still the most profitable food operations.

Here’s my solution. Any public entity that wants to exclude business owners of all stripes or backgrounds if you will, should cede any sales tax revenue generated by those venues. In other words don’t even collect. because cities are trying to have it both ways. The councilman in SA cited the story noting their donations to the Salvation Army for one. Ok. The city of San Antonio should immediately cease referring people to services the Salvation Army provides then if they are going to be consistent. The FCA was another group. You know the group of kids who get together at middle and high schools and might study the Bible and exercise their first amendment rights. A fairly non denomination group that appears to be lumped in now with Jerry Falwells moral majority. As someone who has a kid who participates in FCA that is the furthest from the truth. But thanks to that one Councilman you would of thought they were all part of the Christian Taliban.
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Helobious

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31 minutes ago, Nueces River Rat said:


No where in my post did I blame gays for everything. And back at you as a prime reason we are so divided. From the get go “saying people like you.”
 

“People like you” means any person who goes through life with a magnifying glass looking for reasons to feel victimized or offended. The OP had nothing to do with gays, christianity, chick fil a or anything like that and you brought all of that up in an attempt to bring to light how you feel oppressed as a Christian in one of the most christian nations in the world. Had no relevance to the topic at hand and yet you managed to inject all of it in the thread anyway. It’s a perfect example of how hyper-politicized everything has become. 

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TwiceHorn

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5 hours ago, TwiceHorn said:

Dehumanization of others is accepted, the acknowledgement that you dehumanize yourself first I though insightful.

Another thing he mentioned is that contemnacious shitposting actually causes a little dopamine hit.  It's a bit addictive.  People continue to do it even though they acknowledge on a conscious level that it's bad and they may even wish they didn't.

Godalmighty. Contemptuous. Something about forums makes me a terrible speller and even make up words. 

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GringoSalado

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5 hours ago, Helobious said:

People like you blame entire communities of people for things that aren't their fault or that they have little actual power/influence over to begin with. 

?

 

He literally said "some" in the community, and also made the point that others in that community supported the chicken place.

Edit: Also, I love you.

Edited by GringoSalado
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Macanudo

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8 hours ago, Nueces River Rat said:

Any public entity

I'm going out on a limb here.   Chick-Fil-A is not a public entity.   They are private.  I have always thought that businesses should be allowed to do business with whoever they want.  I know the law says that you can not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, creed, etc.   But I think they should be able to.   In this day of social media, those who refuse to do business with someone "different" than themselves will suffer.    Yes, in Podunk, MS or Bumfuck, AL where there is only one baker who does wedding cakes and decides they wont make them for a non-white, straight Christian couple, the non-white straight Christian couples who want cakes will need to seek other avenues.   

But guess what?  Some of those white, straight Christians out there will not like that and will do business with Mary Beth Jenkins, the cake maker who sells to ANYONE.  And in bigger towns and cities, those companies who wont do business with non-white, straight Christians will see their business dry up as the rest of us who don't give a shit what people look like, who they worship or who's dick they suck (or don't)  will support them because they produce a good product at a fair price.      

That is how the world works now.  

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Brisketexan

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I'm going out on a limb here.   Chick-Fil-A is not a public entity.   They are private.  I have always thought that businesses should be allowed to do business with whoever they want.  I know the law says that you can not discriminate on the basis of race, religion, creed, etc.   But I think they should be able to.   In this day of social media, those who refuse to do business with someone "different" than themselves will suffer.    Yes, in Podunk, MS or Bumfuck, AL where there is only one baker who does wedding cakes and decides they wont make them for a non-white, straight Christian couple, the non-white straight Christian couples who want cakes will need to seek other avenues.   
But guess what?  Some of those white, straight Christians out there will not like that and will do business with Mary Beth Jenkins, the cake maker who sells to ANYONE.  And in bigger towns and cities, those companies who wont do business with non-white, straight Christians will see their business dry up as the rest of us who don't give a shit what people look like, who they worship or who's dick they suck (or don't)  will support them because they produce a good product at a fair price.      
That is how the world works now.  

We’d like to think so. We’ve seen that it’s not true.

Give this society permission to be shamelessly racist, and it will run with that like a fucking greyhound. You’ll have a shitload of places and areas that become Jim Crow as hell.
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SuckitKevin

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10 hours ago, Helobious said:

The SA mayor (a straight man) said the #1 reason he didn't want Chick fil a in the airport was that there's limited food court options to begin with, and he wanted every restaurant there to be open 7 days a week. It was some of the (also straight) city council members who brought political reasoning into their decision.

But yes continue to blame the gays for everything. Your post is actually a prime example of why we're so divided. People like you blame entire communities of people for things that aren't their fault or that they have little actual power/influence over to begin with. 

Ron Nuremberg was and still is full of shit. 

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Helobious

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1 hour ago, Macanudo said:

Yes, in Podunk, MS or Bumfuck, AL where there is only one baker who does wedding cakes and decides they wont make them for a non-white, straight Christian couple, the non-white straight Christian couples who want cakes will need to seek other avenues.   

1) If a business came out and said “we will no longer serve X minority group” their sales would absolutely soar through the roof. The 8chan mob would make sure of it. And most people not in the impacted group would still do business with them, not out of prejudice but because “hey it’s not me they’re talking about”. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them put non-discriminatory businesses out of business, leaving those in X group even fewer options.

2) So if I work in the oil industry, and I find myself assigned to work in Barrow, Alaska, where the supermarket owner refuses to serve hispanics, I have to go buy a plane ticket any time I need groceries?

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High Plains Drifter

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On 5/17/2019 at 9:07 PM, TwiceHorn said:

Have to listen to the podcast, but he had some good insight on social media and twitter in particular.  The first interesting observation is that we dehumanize ourselves and then dehumanize others.  He sort of proposed abolishing anonymity, which seems draconian or something, but certainly effective.

He also mentioned that there are three stages to the life of a new communications medium and that we seem to be in the second one, which is damaging.  One analogy was the telephone.  There apparently was a point at which relatively new telephone users barely left their homes.

 

No anonymity on the internet would be a good thing. I've advocated for that on another thread a while back and was slammed for it.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9083

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8 hours ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

No anonymity on the internet would be a good thing. I've advocated for that on another thread a while back and was slammed for it.

Yeah, that isn't working out on FB too well. People names, and faces are front and center, and they're still complete, snd utter assholes about any topic they seem to disagree with others about.

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TwiceHorn

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19 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Yeah, that isn't working out on FB too well. People names, and faces are front and center, and they're still complete, snd utter assholes about any topic they seem to disagree with others about.

Don't do the facing book, but I'll take your word.  Seems it's not solely anonymity; it's not having to look your opponent in the eye or be within striking range when  you say stuff.

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Onboard 2.0

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10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Don't do the facing book, but I'll take your word.  Seems it's not solely anonymity; it's not having to look your opponent in the eye or be within striking range when  you say stuff.

Yeah it's still internet tough guy stuff from the safety of your keyboard.  There's an FB  VCU basketball fan site. 2 kids have just announced they're transferring.  One was a decent, if unspectacular starter, and the other a rising sophomore who was showing promise. "Fans" were saying good riddance, they were the worst players on the team, things like that.  I was amazed people would say shit like that about a couple kids who see those posts, and who have parents who visited those sites from time to time.

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Macanudo

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9 hours ago, Helobious said:

1) If a business came out and said “we will no longer serve X minority group” their sales would absolutely soar through the roof. The 8chan mob would make sure of it. And most people not in the impacted group would still do business with them, not out of prejudice but because “hey it’s not me they’re talking about”. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them put non-discriminatory businesses out of business, leaving those in X group even fewer options.

2) So if I work in the oil industry, and I find myself assigned to work in Barrow, Alaska, where the supermarket owner refuses to serve hispanics, I have to go buy a plane ticket any time I need groceries?

Well, see all my ideas aren't 100% brilliant.   And some of them are alcohol fueled.  

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