(Houston) Dad shoots at teens who had paintball guns, kills 19-year-old: police

[Asithappens 974]

1 minute ago, Gene Parmesan said:

Do weapons even have to be involved to be justified under Texas self defense/castle doctrine laws?

No sir! Weapons are not a required element when defending your castle.

[smuggs 9354]

17 minutes ago, destroya said:

Why is it the Dad’s responsibility to guess the mob’s intent? 15 teens and adults came to his house in the middle of the night to fight his son and shoot it up with paintballs. His greater moral responsibility is to his family’s safety not the mob outside. 

 

I have firearms in my safe that I can access within seconds. I also realize the stupidity of running into the yard, guns blazing, to confront a "mob" of people.

Do you think this would have turned out well for the homeowner if the teens had real firearms?

Call the cops, stay inside your locked house with your family, and rain fire on any moron that actually tries to enter your home.

[ztejas 43566]

Misread

Edited May 23, 2019 by ztejas

[SquishMitten 10450]

3 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Negative Ghost Rider...Texas allows the use of deadly force to protect against criminal mischief at night. Especially at one's own home.

Shows how much I remember about crim law. I’ll get back in my own lane now

[NotActuallyALonghorn 4979]

To be fair that's pretty unique to Texas.

[Samson's Wig 3195]

12 hours ago, FartingMonk said:

Real or not.  They showed up at his house around midnight.  Yelling that they were going to kill his son.  These guys ranged from 16-22 years old.  The bullet sponge was 19.  His kid is 17.  I don't feel sorry for him the dead guy one bit. 

This.  Teenagers and young men have been raised with the realization that they can get away with whatever they want without adults laying a hand on them.  This wasn't always the case, but it's turned a generation or two into a bunch of entitled dicks.  When you start playing grown-up games, you deal with the grown-up consequences.  And a large mob of 16 to 22-year-olds isn't something one guy, even if he's Chuck fucking Norris, is going to deal with barehanded.  It sucks that someone is dead, but that's his (and likely his parents to a degree) own damn fault. 

If a mob shows up at your home threatening harm to your family, call the police.  But a father has an obligation to protect his family.  Based on the information we have, I wouldn't like to see him charged.  Should he have fired a warning shot?  Probably, but without knowing more that's speculation.  Fuck every kid who showed up there (even if the son may have deserved a beating on some level).  This is the shit that happens when we don't let boys fight it out with fists when they're young to learn about the consequences of confrontation. 

I agree completely with those above who said he should have stayed inside and waited for the cops, and defended as necessary.  Dad sounds reactionary at best.  But he didn't cause the situation either. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Samson's Wig

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

9 minutes ago, Asithappens said:

The only thing I find odd here is that dad used a rifle and not a shotgun.

Yep I'd have a shotgun with bird shot followed by buck shot. If the bird shot didn't persuade him to go away.

[Gene Parmesan 4016]

 

9 minutes ago, smuggs said:

 

I have firearms in my safe that I can access within seconds. I also realize the stupidity of running into the yard, guns blazing, to confront a "mob" of people.

Do you think this would have turned out well for the homeowner if the teens had real firearms?

Call the cops, stay inside your locked house with your family, and rain fire on any moron that actually tries to enter your home.

Given the facts this is exactly what I would have done and I don't think anyone would argue that that isn't the smartest move.  For the question of legal or illegal my understanding is the bar for self defense on your property doesn't come with those requirements. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, smuggs said:

 

I have firearms in my safe that I can access within seconds. I also realize the stupidity of running into the yard, guns blazing, to confront a "mob" of people.

Do you think this would have turned out well for the homeowner if the teens had real firearms?

Call the cops, stay inside your locked house with your family, and rain fire on any moron that actually tries to enter your home.

Not waiting for them to enter my home.  They need to GTFO my property and disperse.

 

Fuck this mentality of one way respect. Not saying shooting someone would have been my first reaction, but if I felt threatened, I would let them know what’s about to happen.

Edited May 23, 2019 by slorch

[hornbri 1419]

48 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

There seems to be a focus on the paintball guns.  Assuming the half of the story about being there to fight the son is true, wouldn't you still be justified in shooting had their been no weapons at all?  Threat of serious bodily harm doesn't have to be from a weapon.

15 people showing up with paintball guns to beat someone up is an odd point to the story, but teenagers are dumb.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were there to do some hazing on the kid. 

This - There does not even need to be a focus on if he thought they were paintball guns or real guns. If a mob shows up to fight his son and destroy his property he is within his rights to protect his son and property.

Hell even if he knew they were paint guns if there were 12-15 of them and 2 of them that seems like a credible threat. 

[Pato del Muerto 52649]

You use what you have. Maybe rifle was the only thing in his arsenal. 

[TwiceHorn 31633]

2 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I just don't understand how everyone is okay with the father killing one of the teenagers. I'm not saying the mob wasn't the instigator or at fault, or whatever. But it feels like the same people who complain about police being too trigger happy are cheering the same thing with this father. 

There were so many things that could have been done before taking someone's life.

There's an easy distinction here.  A cop is supposed to be trained, in weapons and in responding to a threatening situation in the manner least likely to get someone hurt.  And, cops roam around armed 24-7 and frequently expose themselves (and are exposed to) threatening situations.

Joe six pack might be deserving of a break in a situation where a cop is not. 

 

Neither the cop nor the non-cop situation fills me with warm fuzzies.  Both are tragic and accidental, but I think our tolerance for tragic accidents from the police has to be lower than from the average citizen.  Particularly the way police conduct edges from the accidental toward the deliberate.

Edited May 23, 2019 by TwiceHorn

[Dahobbs 17706]

41 minutes ago, riloh05 said:

do you not think it is too early to be this invested?...why are you so invested? were you one of the 15 or parent/guardian? curious.

You're reading me wrong guy. I'm not the one invested in a particular outcome. I'm not the one saying "yeah, kid totally deserved it." I'm the one saying, wait a minute, this sounds a bit strange and it isn't adding up, we should get more information.

Also, apparently it was 4 kids, not 15. 

[Dahobbs 17706]

36 minutes ago, NotActuallyALonghorn said:

Negative Ghost Rider...Texas allows the use of deadly force to protect against criminal mischief at night. Especially at one's own home.

That isn't the whole truth. There are a lot of other factors that must be met:

Quote

 

Texas Penal Code - PENAL § 9.42. Deadly Force to Protect Property

 A person is justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or tangible, movable property:

(1) if he would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.41 ;  and

(2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:

(A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime;  or

(B) to prevent the other who is fleeing immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the property;  and

(3) he reasonably believes that:

(A) the land or property cannot be protected or recovered by any other means;  or

(B) the use of force other than deadly force to protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Dahobbs

[gyroprotagonist 2595]

need to see if this turns out to be like the cop that was convicted of murder in the Balch Springs shooting.  At the end of the day, when all the facts were sorted out, that cop shot his rifle at a car that was driving away with teenagers in it and posed no threat to him.

If the dad shot at fleeing car, he may face more heat.  

 

[Judge Roybeanbag 11821]

12 hours ago, Neonmoon said:

I’m guessing calling the police was out of the question?

 

Not out of the question but probably would have gotten more people killed.

[Dahobbs 17706]

27 minutes ago, hornbri said:

This - There does not even need to be a focus on if he thought they were paintball guns or real guns. If a mob shows up to fight his son and destroy his property he is within his rights to protect his son and property.

Hell even if he knew they were paint guns if there were 12-15 of them and 2 of them that seems like a credible threat. 

But apparently there weren't 12-15 of them. There were 4 of them. And the dad only saw one of them, the rest were fleeing in the truck. As I said, we need more information to know whether this was justified. The new information is not in the father's favor. You can shoot at a fleeing vehicle IF it is fleeing with your property AND shooting is the only way to get your property back. There are no indications anything was stolen here, so the father doesn't get to use this particular defense. 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Dahobbs

[Fondren & Main 6744]

All this Monday morning quarterbacking is ridiculous.  Yeah, he shouldn’t have gone Joe Horn, but if a group of dumbfucks wakes your ass up in the middle of the night threatening your family members how are you gonna react?  You gonna sit there and think it through rationally?  I’m getting all the guns and calling the cops.  Anyone makes a move towards the door is getting fucking dropped.

[destroya 381]

44 minutes ago, smuggs said:

 

I have firearms in my safe that I can access within seconds. I also realize the stupidity of running into the yard, guns blazing, to confront a "mob" of people.

Do you think this would have turned out well for the homeowner if the teens had real firearms?

Call the cops, stay inside your locked house with your family, and rain fire on any moron that actually tries to enter your home.

I agree with you and would have done the same thing.  But when a group of folks show up in the middle of the night to a house looking to fight the homeowner's son and vandalize his house, getting shot and killed is a real possibility.

Edited May 23, 2019 by destroya

[Longhornfan1024 1707]

Putting aside whether the father was justified, I do wonder whether this could rise to felony murder for the other kids involved.  I'm unsure (and too lazy to check) if trespassing with the intent to commit aggravated assault and property damage is a felony.  If so, the other kids could be super-fucked.

[hornbri 1419]

2 minutes ago, Dahobbs said:

But apparently there weren't 12-15 of them. There were 4 of them. And the dad only saw one of them, the rest were fleeing in the truck. As I said, we need more information to know whether this was justified. The new information is not in the father's favor. You can shoot at a fleeing vehicle IF it is fleeing with your property AND shooting is the only way to get your property back. There are no indications anything was stolen here, so the father doesn't get to use this particular defense. 

I get we need more information about this case to know. What I said was "Even IF he knew they were paint guns and IF there were 12-15 of them and 2 of them that seems like a credible threat. "

[Onboard 2.0 9083]

2 minutes ago, Fondren & Main said:

All this Monday morning quarterbacking is ridiculous.  Yeah, he shouldn’t have gone Joe Horn, but if a group of dumbfucks wakes your ass up in the middle of the night threatening your family members how are you gonna react?  You gonna sit there and think it through rationally?  I’m getting all the guns and calling the cops.  Anyone makes a move towards the door is getting fucking dropped.

And that's fair.  Giving chase, and then firing ?  Not so fast Kimosabe..

[TwiceHorn 31633]

Also, on the charging decision.  I could go either way, as I said.

What is kind of annoying or disturbing is the announcement or statement, at this early stage, that he will not be charged.  I'm not sure that has actually been said, but if it has, that's no bueno.

[gecko 1104]

One thing is confirmed at this point....Houston media reporting on this is crap.  God they are lazy....

[hornbri 1419]

5 minutes ago, gecko said:

One thing is confirmed at this point....Houston media reporting on this is crap.  God they are lazy....

Totally agreed - none of us know what really happened here or if the first story or second story is correct. 

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

51 minutes ago, smuggs said:

 

I have firearms in my safe that I can access within seconds. I also realize the stupidity of running into the yard, guns blazing, to confront a "mob" of people.

Do you think this would have turned out well for the homeowner if the teens had real firearms?

Call the cops, stay inside your locked house with your family, and rain fire on any moron that actually tries to enter your home.

 

This is the correct answer. You only shoot as an absolute last resort. Going out guns blazing-- what if your rifle shot kills a neighbor's kid asleep in their bed?

At the very least use a shotgun and not a rifle.

 

Also paint gun "bullets" hitting a house I imagine would sound nothing like real bullets.

[clapclapclap 9000]

11 minutes ago, destroya said:

I agree with you and would have done the same thing.  But when a group of folks show up in the middle of the night to a house looking to fight the homeowner's son and vandalize his house, getting shot and killed is a real possibility.

Especially during Paranoia May, destroya.

[Gene Parmesan 4016]

6 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

This is the correct answer. You only shoot as an absolute last resort. Going out guns blazing-- what if your rifle shot kills a neighbor's kid asleep in their bed?

At the very least use a shotgun and not a rifle.

 

Also paint gun "bullets" hitting a house I imagine would sound nothing like real bullets.

The father doesn't have to believe they were real guns in order to be legally justified. 

[Reagan1k 3024]

10 minutes ago, TwiceHorn said:

Also, on the charging decision.  I could go either way, as I said.

What is kind of annoying or disturbing is the announcement or statement, at this early stage, that he will not be charged.  I'm not sure that has actually been said, but if it has, that's no bueno.

Good point - That statement reported as fact in the media might have been a throw-away comment made by an officer at the scene and has no bearing on the actual outcome.

It would seem that a formal announcement would have been made and reported on if that decision was in fact made.

I'm guessing we'll hear more about this and that the actual decision is yet to come.

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

2 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The father doesn't have to believe they were real guns in order to be legally justified. 

 

I wasn't making a legal argument.

[Asithappens 974]

11 minutes ago, High Plains Drifter said:

You only shoot as an absolute last resort.

While that may be the preferred mentality, it most definitely is not (legally) true.

But I would still disagree with that statement. One should not be required (legally or otherwise) to wait until the "absolute last resort" before one can shoot.

Not that I'm saying go trigger happy.

[High Plains Drifter 11054]

Just now, Asithappens said:

While that may be the preferred mentality, it most definitely is not (legally) true.

But I would still disagree with that statement. One should not be required (legally or otherwise) to wait until the "absolute last resort" before one can shoot.

Not that I'm saying go trigger happy.

 

Again, I'm not making a legal argument. I really dgaf what the home owner is legally allowed to do.

 

If there were a 100% chance that innocent bystanders (in other houses or where ever) not going to be injured in a shootout, then I honestly would have no problem with everyone of those fucking idiots getting raked with machine gun fire (regardless whether such a response is legal or not).

 

 

 

[Dahobbs 17706]

19 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

The father doesn't have to believe they were real guns in order to be legally justified. 

How so? Under the information we have, I'm not seeing where deadly force is authorized. He doesn't get there via criminal mischief at night because he apparently shot after they were leaving. He wasn't protecting anything at that point and there is not indication they stole anything. His other option is fear of serious bodily injury, but again, how do you get there if they were fleeing at the time he fired? 

[Gene Parmesan 4016]

Just now, Dahobbs said:

How so? Under the information we have, I'm not seeing where deadly force is authorized. He doesn't get there via criminal mischief at night because he apparently shot after they were leaving. He wasn't protecting anything at that point and there is not indication they stole anything. His other option is fear of serious bodily injury, but again, how do you get there if they were fleeing at the time he fired?  

I'm not saying he was justified, I'm saying the paintball vs real gun is a red herring.  Threat of bodily harm doesn't have to come from a weapon.  We don't know what he was or wasn't protecting.  Protecting your property doesn't have to be done with the perpetrator carrying a weapon either.  We also don't know that they were fleeing when he shot the kid.  We know that he also hit their car, but do we know that it was fleeing?

What I gathered from the update was as clear as mud.

[Dahobbs 17706]

11 minutes ago, Gene Parmesan said:

I'm not saying he was justified, I'm saying the paintball vs real gun is a red herring.  Threat of bodily harm doesn't have to come from a weapon.  We don't know what he was or wasn't protecting.  Protecting your property doesn't have to be done with the perpetrator carrying a weapon either.  We also don't know that they were fleeing when he shot the kid.  We know that he also hit their car, but do we know that it was fleeing?

What I gathered from the update was as clear as mud.

But it isn't a red-herring. If the father thought the guns were real, it would go a long way to establishing his reasonable fear of serious bodily injury, and thus justifying the use of deadly force. What is true is that him knowing the guns weren't real doesn't 100% preclude that the use of force was justified. But that doesn't make the issue a red-herring. It just means that whether deadly force was justified isn't completely determined by the father's belief in the realness of the guns. Instead, that belief is one of several factors that must be considered.

Edited May 23, 2019 by Dahobbs

[irishtexan 11530]

This is what happens when stupid meets stupid. I expect stupid out of teenagers. The dad, however...

Houston really is the Florida of Texas.

[crash_davis 23121]

i hope i never get as excited as some of you mofos are about shooting people.  

[Texas007 195]

1 hour ago, High Plains Drifter said:

 

This is the correct answer. You only shoot as an absolute last resort. Going out guns blazing-- what if your rifle shot kills a neighbor's kid asleep in their bed?

At the very least use a shotgun and not a rifle.

 

Also paint gun "bullets" hitting a house I imagine would sound nothing like real bullets.

I imagine most people don't know what real bullets hitting their house sounds like.

Could someone outside shooting a paintball gun be mistaken for someone shooting a .22? I believe so. 

[Texas_Rocks 347]

I bet they were pretty hyped when imagining the 17 vs 1 can of whip ass they were about to open. That shit obviously did not go as planned. Who the fuck is parenting the losers?

 

[irishtexan 11530]

It's almost comical how so many posters are always so quick to imagine hypotheticals absolving someone of killing another person in the name of liberty, property, or some other vague concept draped in an American flag.

[crash_davis 23121]

1 minute ago, Texas_Rocks said:

I bet they were pretty hyped when imagining the 17 vs 1 can of whip ass they were about to open. That shit obviously did not go as planned. Who the fuck is parenting the losers?

 

or the contrary.  how big of an asshole do you have be to make 17 dudes so pissed that they want to kill you.  

[Texas_Rocks 347]

or the contrary.  how big of an asshole do you have be to make 17 dudes so pissed that they want to kill you.  

lol! Too good.

[crash_davis 23121]

1 minute ago, irishtexan said:

It's almost comical how so many posters are always so quick to imagine hypotheticals absolving someone of killing another person in the name of liberty, property, or some other vague concept draped in an American flag.

it's the fucking gun mythos.  doesn't get more american than shooting people.

[Gene Parmesan 4016]

3 minutes ago, irishtexan said:

It's almost comical how so many posters are always so quick to imagine hypotheticals absolving someone of killing another person in the name of liberty, property, or some other vague concept draped in an American flag.

Outside of porn there is no better use of the internet imo.

[Foosters 17893]

So the two versions we have are:

1) Group of 15 19-22 year olds show up to house and announce to dad they are going to kill his son so dad kills one in order to save his son.

2) Group of 4 teenagers are driving away and dad shoots them as they are fleeing.

Hmmm

[Trey3216 15379]

18 minutes ago, Texas_Rocks said:

I bet they were pretty hyped when imagining the 17 vs 1 can of whip ass they were about to open. That shit obviously did not go as planned. Who the fuck is parenting the losers?

 

The public school system, and reality tv 

Edited May 23, 2019 by Trey3216

[SDG 3319]

3 hours ago, Dahobbs said:

We dont know any of that from the article. The only thing in the article is that the police thought the group was there to "fight" the other kid, which is pretty fucking ambiguous. Yall are making a shit ton of assumptions without much information. I am just trying to honestly evaluate the various possibilities. There exist some where he was justified, and others where he wasnt. To me, it seems way early for the cops to be making that call. That is all. 

As already pointed out but some don’t seem to grasp.  The police have arrested a few of the kids but not the dad; we don’t know all the facts, but that tells us the lean. 

 

Note te to self: read full thread before commenting...  Carry on.

Edited May 23, 2019 by SDG

[Nice Guy Eddie 13530]

This comes across as the scene from Can't Buy Me Love where they are vandalizing the home on Halloween but in this case the father broke out a gun instead of a water hose.

[RDCanecutter 26500]

2 hours ago, Asithappens said:

The only thing I find odd here is that dad used a rifle and not a shotgun.

What we know has been filtered through the mind of a reporter who may struggle to distinguish pistols from Ma Deuces, or M113s from tanks.

It'd be cooler if it turns out the dad used a throwing star.

Edited May 23, 2019 by RDCanecutter

[smuggs 9354]

2 hours ago, slorch said:

Not waiting for them to enter my home.  They need to GTFO my property and disperse.

 

Fuck this mentality of one way respect. Not saying shooting someone would have been my first reaction, but if I felt threatened, I would let them know what’s about to happen.

 

I respect the fact that my wife and kids need me around. And confronting multiple people with a weapon, alone, over the damage of some property, is not in the best interest of my family.

The guy's kid was safe inside the house. Call the cops and let the morons shoot paintballs at your vinyl siding. If they test the front door, escalate.