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Immigration effects on our Health Care System

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JohnnyRage

JohnnyRage 1,617

Posted
Posted
On 6/1/2019 at 3:59 PM, Onboard 2.0 said:

No, what we need is a guest worker visa program, and a zero tolerance policy for illegal border crossings.

All we need to do is punish employers that hire illegals directly or through a contractor model. It's not complicated. There would be near zero immigration if income was unavailable.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted
All we need to do is punish employers that hire illegals directly or through a contractor model. It's not complicated. There would be near zero immigration if income was unavailable.

Punishing mostly white people...FASCINATING idea. And it’s not hard to find them - employers are largely fixed in location. This is a great idea!

I wonder why we haven’t done it, if immigration is such a NATIONAL EMERGENCY? Man...I wonder why...
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Thetexashammer

Thetexashammer 1,062

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Posted
1 hour ago, JohnnyRage said:

All we need to do is punish employers that hire illegals directly or through a contractor model. It's not complicated. There would be near zero immigration if income was unavailable.

11 employers were prosecuted last year for hiring illegals.

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TDunk

TDunk 590

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Posted
1 hour ago, Thetexashammer said:

11 employers were prosecuted last year for hiring illegals.

Without providing evidence, let's go with those 11 employers escaped prosecution and shit on the streets of San Francisco.  

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workswithseed

workswithseed 2,204

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Posted
15 hours ago, Incredulity said:

That’s right the city council’s and mayors of Seattle, Portland, San Francisco and LA are made up entirely of conservatives.  Also, the governors of each of those states are conservatives too.

Wait... I am pretty sure it is actually the exact opposite.  You fucking moron.

I remember when Dallas got rid of thier camp years back which got most ofnthem moved out of the city. I moved here to Portland and they are everywhere, the whole damn city is a homeless camp.

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,097

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DigglerontheHoof said:

hahahaha, yeah, they all left Dallas

I was just about to say, I live in Dallas and can tell you they haven’t “gotten rid” of jack shit. We still have people sleeping on sidewalks, we still have panhandlers, we still have people walking the streets screaming incoherent nothings, etc. I have that Nextdoor app and cannot tell you how many emails I’ve gotten that are about posts that read along the lines of “homeless guy on [intersection] seen masturbating.”

Acting as if Dallas, or any other major city for that matter, is some sort of homeless-free paradise is an exercise in Make Believe and Pretend. I suppose that’s to be expected with that particular crowd, given their propensity to automatically assume absolute horseshit.

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DigglerontheHoof

DigglerontheHoof 21,558

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15 minutes ago, hpslugga said:

I was just about to say, I live in Dallas and can tell you they haven’t “gotten rid” of jack shit. We still have people sleeping on sidewalks, we still have panhandlers, we still have people walking the streets screaming incoherent nothings, etc. I have that Nextdoor app and cannot tell you how many emails I’ve gotten that are about posts that read along the lines of “homeless guy on [intersection] seen masturbating.”

Acting as if Dallas, or any other major city for that matter, is some sort of homeless-free paradise is an exercise in Make Believe and Pretend. I suppose that’s to be expected with that particular crowd, given their propensity to automatically assume absolute horseshit.

Hell, they line up on entrance/exit ramps in the mix master during rush hour to panhandle.   They didn't go anywhere, they just scattered and regrouped. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,097

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Posted
Just now, DigglerontheHoof said:

Hell, they line up on entrance/exit ramps in the mix master during rush hour to panhandle.   They didn't go anywhere, they just scattered and regrouped. 

And it was largely a reaction to that very short-lived ordinance that stated the DPD had the right to ticket them. That lasted about...a month.

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FondrenRoad

FondrenRoad 4,378

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6 hours ago, TDunk said:

Without providing evidence, let's go with those 11 employers escaped prosecution and shit on the streets of San Francisco.  

Even if they didn't, there are 100's of 1000's of employers hiring illegal immigrants in this country. 11 may as well be zero if it's supposed to scare employers straight. The threat of prosecution from jaywalking is higher. 

In that same year, 1000s of businesses that employ illegals have been inspected and shut down for health code violations.  If they really wanted to make a dent, all those border patrol new hires should be doing employer inspections instead of border patrol. 

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hpslugga

hpslugga 4,097

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Posted
1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

If they really wanted to make a dent, all those border patrol new hires should be doing employer inspections instead of border patrol. 

That and stop imposing unlivable living conditions on peoples of other countries in the region via imposing/supporting vicious dictators and other right wing regimes that do absolutely nothing but enrich themselves and their small pocket of

Bottom line, and I’ve said this over and over: if you don’t want people illegally coming here, don’t give them a reason to. When you support Contra-esque regimes and when you allow employers to hire illegal immigrants with zero fear of prosecution, you are giving those people reasons to come here. This is not a Have-Your-Cake-And-Eat-It-Too proposition; you either care about illegal immigration or you don’t. If you don’t want to address root causes, then by definition, you don’t care.

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Js1

Js1 87,220

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, FondrenRoad said:

Even if they didn't, there are 100's of 1000's of employers hiring illegal immigrants in this country. 11 may as well be zero if it's supposed to scare employers straight. The threat of prosecution from jaywalking is higher. 

In that same year, 1000s of businesses that employ illegals have been inspected and shut down for health code violations.  If they really wanted to make a dent, all those border patrol new hires should be doing employer inspections instead of border patrol. 

That's cute except that most of those large employers are donators to the Republicans.  Perry Homes, Walmart, Trump Org.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted (edited)

Y'all notice a common thread between the rhetoric on drugs and the rhetoric on illegal immigration?  Both are supply and demand issues.  Brown countries supply us drugs because we have a demand for them.  Brown countries supply us cheap labor because we have a demand for it.

So, who do we blame, demonize, and threaten?  Only one side of the equation -- the supplier.  How DARE you sell me the drugs that I consume voraciously!  How DARE you send me the cheap labor that I can't get enough of!  For brown countries, we have 100% blame.  For Americans...we have 0% accountability.

You know how we enlightened Westerners like to condemn and mock any islamic leader who preaches about how women are really to blame for immorality, and they should dress modestly so as not to tempt poor men, etc. etc.?  In other words, all blame goes to the supply side, and none goes to the demand side?

Yeah....we're no better than a backwards-ass imam in Batshitistan.

You want to end illegal immigration tomorrow?  Mandatory 20 year federal prison sentence for any person who employs an illegal immigrant, either individually or as an officer/manager of a corporation doing so.  Start rounding up white guys living out by Lake Travis who run XYZ contracting, or LMNOP restaurant group, etc., and sending them to hard-ass time.....and illegal immigration will dry right up.

But that would require sacrifice on our end -- we'd lose the cheap labor we really want.  And we'd put "good people" in jail (note how the contractor who hires illegal labor, but is the coach of the Little League team etc. is a "good guy," but the brown guys he hires, who work their asses off for a day's pay and send most of it back to their families, are "criminals?").  We can't have THAT, no sir.  Best to shift all the blame to someone else, and continue with our zero responsibility or accountability plan.

Edited by Brisketexan
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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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Posted
18 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You want to end illegal immigration tomorrow?  Mandatory 20 year federal prison sentence for any person who employs an illegal immigrant, either individually or as an officer/manager of a corporation doing so.  Start rounding up white guys living out by Lake Travis who run XYZ contracting, or LMNOP restaurant group, etc., and sending them to hard-ass time.....and illegal immigration will dry right up.

I believe more people would be for that than you are assuming.  I've hired illegal labor a grand total of 0 times, so I'm certain it can be done.  For the jobs that "only illegals will do", make them guest workers.  When they no longer have a job to support them, adios.  Or make my strawberries $10 a carton instead of $4, idgaf.  But having a record of who is in your country is absolutely necessary.  As Amercians, we should know who we are either inviting in, or who is trespassing in our country.

You are also making the assumption every illegal comes here for work.  Where are the kids they are dragging over going to work (they should be in school)?  The elderly parents?  What about the few who are actually leaving with legitimate asylum claims who wouldn't have left otherwise; they didn't come for a job?  

I'm pretty sure most everyone supports some type of work visa system.  You want a better life for your family, come have at this work.  Pay us some taxes and be a good citizen and your ticket is punched.  You remain a good citizen and really like it here, hell become a permanent citizen and help this country grow.   What is not supported by many is bringing the elderly parents and 5 kids over for one person to have a low paying (by US standards) job.   So the parents of said immigrant, wife, and kids get taken care of by the tax payer (me and you) so dad can pick strawberries?  How is that a net positive? What are these very poor and very likely uneducated people who are NOT working bringing to the table?  Are the taxes from dad's field work a surplus to the US system supporting the medical and school the the rest of the family; I don't believe so.  You might believe that is a great use of your tax dollars; I'd rather fix the social issues we already have.  

And I'm certain you understand at the same time, you have many who want to jack up minimum wage, provide everyone a house, provide everyone free college, free child care.  We also laugh and smirk at the entire country being made up of "idiots".  "Trump is what we deserve because we are stupid" etc.   But we should invite millions of VERY poor and uneducated people over because...feels.  Idiots indeed.  

It's easy to say, yeah "Brown people".  But do you really honestly believe if tomorrow, we literally had millions of Italians who couldn't speak English, didn't have a dime to their name, and were entering illegally up and down the east coast with their families in tow no one would be bitching, or calling all stop - let's figure out what we are doing to our economies/schools/medical needs/taxes/disease/assimilation etc.  If you honestly feel that way, that really sucks, and I feel sorry for you. 

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Foosters

Foosters 18,286

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Posted
4 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

But do you really honestly believe if tomorrow, we literally had millions of Italians who couldn't speak English, didn't have a dime to their name, and were entering illegally up and down the east coast with their families in tow no one would be bitching, or calling all stop - let's figure out what we are doing to our economies/schools/medical needs/taxes/disease/assimilation etc.  If you honestly feel that way, that really sucks, and I feel sorry for you. 

This did happen. People were pissed. People predicted the end of America as we know it. How'd that turn out?

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted
1 minute ago, fattyflattie said:

I'm pretty sure most everyone supports some type of work visa system.  You want a better life for your family, come have at this work.  Pay us some taxes and be a good citizen and your ticket is punched.  You remain a good citizen and really like it here, hell become a permanent citizen and help this country grow.   What is not supported by many is bringing the elderly parents and 5 kids over for one person to have a low paying (by US standards) job.   So the parents of said immigrant, wife, and kids get taken care of by the tax payer (me and you) so dad can pick strawberries?  How is that a net positive? What are these very poor and very likely uneducated people who are NOT working bringing to the table?  Are the taxes from dad's field work a surplus to the US system supporting the medical and school the the rest of the family; I don't believe so.  You might believe that is a great use of your tax dollars; I'd rather fix the social issues we already have.  

Yet we've built a stupid, draconian immigration system that - by being harsh and restrictive -- incentivizes EXACTLY what you are preaching against.

If Mr. Martinez can go back and forth, and see his family in Chiapas, then he will be much less inclined to bring them with him while he works and makes money to send home.  But as-is, if he wants to see his family, he has to bring them, because once you get across that river, you ain't going back so you have to cross it a second time.  And everyone does NOT support a work visa program -- the folks in charge now support pointless, draconian idiocy.

3 minutes ago, fattyflattie said:

It's easy to say, yeah "Brown people".  But do you really honestly believe if tomorrow, we literally had millions of Italians who couldn't speak English, didn't have a dime to their name, and were entering illegally up and down the east coast with their families in tow no one would be bitching, or calling all stop - let's figure out what we are doing to our economies/schools/medical needs/taxes/disease/assimilation etc.  If you honestly feel that way, that really sucks, and I feel sorry for you. 

I don't have to imagine that.  We did that back in the day.  Used the same rhetoric etc. that we're using today.  We dusted off the good old American nativist playbook, scratched out where it said Italian/Irish/Chinese, and wrote in "Messicans from all the messicos."  You think your anti-immigrant stance is original.  It's not.  It's painfully cliche.

A sane guest worker program, with mechanisms to get people on the grid and track their employment and pay taxes.  A humane asylum system.  Real efforts to provide safety and stability in countries people are fleeing, so they don't have to run here.  There's myriad common-sense and multi-dimensional approaches to fixing our immigration system.  And the folks in power are interested in precisely NONE of them.  Brown people are too valuable as a bogeyman for us to fix that problem.

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

This did happen. People were pissed.

Yes, a very long time ago.  I'd like to think things have changed since then, but I guess not.

2 minutes ago, Foosters said:

People predicted the end of America as we know it. How'd that turn out?

Donald Trump is our president.  


In all seriousness, immigration has to happen.  It is healthy and needed.  But that doesn't mean we cannot manage it better than what we have in the past, or now, going forward.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted
3 minutes ago, Foosters said:

This did happen. People were pissed. People predicted the end of America as we know it. How'd that turn out?

Well, it gave us Scalia.  His mother was the daughter of poor italian immigrants.  I'm sure fatty HATED that, right?

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted
Just now, fattyflattie said:

Yes, a very long time ago.  I'd like to think things have changed since then, but I guess not.

Donald Trump is our president.  


In all seriousness, immigration has to happen.  It is healthy and needed.  But that doesn't mean we cannot manage it better than what we have in the past, or now, going forward.

Good post.  All these things are correct.  But we are broken, and cannot fix them.  

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

You think your anti-immigrant stance is original.

I absolutely do not.   But I also don't believe our entire country's immigration system is made up of "ooh, let's fuck the brown people".  This administration has turned shit up to 11, but Obama was sticking people in cages as well.  I don't believe Obama disliked "brown people".  

 

4 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

A sane guest worker program, with mechanisms to get people on the grid and track their employment and pay taxes.  A humane asylum system.  Real efforts to provide safety and stability in countries people are fleeing, so they don't have to run here.  There's myriad common-sense and multi-dimensional approaches to fixing our immigration system.  And the folks in power are interested in precisely NONE of them.  Brown people are too valuable as a bogeyman for us to fix that problem.

Why?  I know, I know, Trump/repubs etc.    But why wasn't it fixed during the 8 years years Obama had the show?  Or when Clinton was running the show?   I don't need to remind you the Republicans haven't been solely in power for the last 25 years.   And if ALL folks in power aren't interested in it, then why are they any better than the current folks in power?  

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fattyflattie

fattyflattie 4,640

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Posted
6 minutes ago, Brisketexan said:

Well, it gave us Scalia.  His mother was the daughter of poor italian immigrants.  I'm sure fatty HATED that, right?

I like Mexican food and Italian food more than American food.  I am also a fan of their women and cars (well, not Mexico's cars).  IMO, we need to import more. 

I just want them documented.  It would be even better if we could get the types that won't further burden our already strained social systems.  Even better yet if they can be a net positive on the social systems and I don't have to lose any more tax dollars to feeding and housing than we already do.  But those are on the horizon wants and we have folks shitting on sidewalks in San Fran, so we should probably figure that out first.

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CO Horn

CO Horn 172

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Posted
8 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Illegal immigrants aren't paying into the healthcare system are they ?

You sure about this? What percentage of illegals would you say do not contribute to our healthcare system?

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13,740

Posted
Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

Illegal immigrants aren't paying into the healthcare system are they ?

That was my question. I assume that doctors don't normally see them for free.  You can get evaluated for free at ERs. Free treatment depends on the "emergency."  Other treatment costs money.  

If there are any healthcare options coming from the city, county or state, then illegal immigrants contribute.  Directly thru sales tax and indirectly via property tax.  Unless illegal immigrants get tax discounts at stores, gas stations or their landlords aren't required to pay prop tax. I assume none of that happens.

EDIT: I have zero evidence to support this statement, but I would doubt that illegal immigrants overly abuse the free ER option. I'm sure they utilize that option but not like the people from the other thread that are going to the ER almost daily.  That's asking for attention that I doubt they want.

Edited by Nice Guy Eddie
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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9,083

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Posted
Just now, Nice Guy Eddie said:

That was my question. I assume that doctors don't normally see them for free.  You can get evaluated for free at ERs. Free treatment depends on the "emergency."  Other treatment costs money.  

If there are any healthcare options coming from the city, county or state, then illegal immigrants contribute.  Directly thru sales tax and indirectly via property tax.  Unless illegal immigrants get tax discounts at stores, gas stations or their landlords aren't required to pay prop tax. I assume none of that happens.

I'd say it's all the ER visits. And, sales and gas taxes are not off setting the costs of ER trips, based on the fee rates We've encountered when someone in out family has had to use one.

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9,083

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3 minutes ago, CO Horn said:

You sure about this? What percentage of illegals would you say do not contribute to our healthcare system?

If they don't have a health insurance how are they contributing ?  Do you think the majority of illegals have health insurance ?  I honestly don;' know, but can't imagine they do.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13,740

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Posted
2 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

I'd say it's all the ER visits. And, sales and gas taxes are not off setting the costs of ER trips, based on the fee rates We've encountered when someone in out family has had to use one.

Once again, I'm asking the question of how much are these ER visits?  

I would assume that the biggest (and most costly) reason for an illegal immigrant in visiting the ER would be to give birth.  And if you want to follow the Constitution, it's the birth of an American citizen and not an illegal immigrant. 

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lemonlime

lemonlime 5,503

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Posted
17 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Back on the topic, are there studies on how much immigrants cost our healthcare system vs how much they pay in?  

That wasn't the topic.  The topic was racism.  The OP posted a link that had nothing whatsoever to do with immigration, or even immigartion.  And accused immigrants, without any actual facts, of spreading typhus in the U.S.   Kinda similar to the president accusing them of being vermin.

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CO Horn

CO Horn 172

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Posted
1 minute ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If they don't have a health insurance how are they contributing ?  Do you think the majority of illegals have health insurance ?  I honestly don;' know, but can't imagine they do.

I don't know either, but I know from personal experience that some do.  I have a client on the Eastern Plains that got raided by ICE about 5 years ago.  They had 25 illegals working for them (all had social security numbers).  Of this amount, about 1/2 were covered by the employer's health insurance.  Even for those that were not, they were all W-2 employees that had Medicare taxes withheld from their paychecks.  I'd say that this is contributing to the healthcare system.

I don't know how many illegals are paid under the table, as independent contractors, etc., but I'd assume a good number have ITINs or social security numbers and are contributing in some fashion. 

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Onboard 2.0

Onboard 2.0 9,083

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3 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Once again, I'm asking the question of how much are these ER visits?  

I would assume that the biggest (and most costly) reason for an illegal immigrant in visiting the ER would be to give birth.  And if you want to follow the Constitution, it's the birth of an American citizen and not an illegal immigrant. 

I'm sure that's part of it, but it's already been shown that ER's are abused, and hospitals are the only places that can't refuse treatment.

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Nice Guy Eddie

Nice Guy Eddie 13,740

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, Onboard 2.0 said:

If they don't have a health insurance how are they contributing ?  

Cash.  ERs ask for money and they don't have to give free treatment for non-emergencies.  I imagine they all have different policies on how they treat patients that can't fully pay for the services.  They balance care vs business needs.

And some ERs are run by the govt.  The best ER (trauma center) in Houston is owned by the county, which is funded by the county property taxes. In Houston, I believe the county hospital district get about 7% of all property taxes. Indirectly illegal immigrants in Houston pay for this service in the same manner that a citizen paying rent pays.

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Brisketexan

Brisketexan 106,966

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Posted

To the original topic, an interesting anecdote from a few years ago.  I worked with the CEO of a semi-rural/small town hospital.  In recent years, the area saw an influx of hispanics, adding to the crowd who used the hospital and the ER.

In discussing the low pay rate for ER use in general, he noted that it was always an issue with the local poor.  They'd use it, they'd get a $1,000 invoice, and it would just go in the trash.  But these new folks...they might show up with $20 one month, $50 the next.  But they often actually paid at least SOME of what they owed.

I know, that ain't statistics, but it does go to how culture affects the cost sink that is our healthcare system.  The things that are broken about our healthcare system aren't broken because of illegal immigrants.  Not even close.  Fix the system, and illegal immigrant use isn't going to be much of an issue.  In fact, arguing about illegal immigration's effect on our broken-ass system is nothing but a useful distraction from the fact that it's broken as fuck.  The people pushing the issue WANT you to think that illegal immigrants are the problem -- man, if we'd just get rid of them, then all would be good.  They're just a convenient scapegoat and distraction.

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