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Schulz2.0

Schulz2.0 29,000

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On 4/14/2020 at 6:59 PM, Knoxtnhorn said:

I've been watching Sunderland Til I Die and I've got 3 questions about professional futbol in general. 

1.  Sunderland's owner is being a cheap ass.  Why would a club owner, that just had his team relegated from the EPL, not want to spend money on transfers?  In American professional leagues, you might lose some money here and there per merchandise sales/gate, etc... But in the tiered system, aren't you kind of risking your entire franchise by not keeping up with other clubs financially?  If you don't spend, you're not going to make it to the EPL and garner the extra 60 million or so alone in TV revenue.  If you get knocked down to the 2nd or 3rd division, you're really risking the entire club/$$$.

2.  Easy one.  Sunderland paid some guy a rather expensive 5-year contract, then got relegated.  During the transfer window, the manager was almost begging the player to transfer.  If a player is under contract, does the team not have any say-so whatsoever in what they can do with him?  If they cut/release him, I'm assuming they'd still have to pay him.  If he accepts a transfer, would Sunderland be off the hook for his transfer AND get paid by his new club?

3.  Hypothetical.  Is there ever a reason in which a fan might not want their team to be promoted to the EPL?  Or is promotion the end-all, be-all of every team?  I'm thinking of a scenario in which a team is very competitive at the Championship level but knows the team could never compete with the EPL blue-bloods.  Said fan might accept a 2nd tier life in which the team competes every week over scraping the bottom of the barrel in the EPL.

 

Short spent a lot at Sunderland. When he finally sold the club he are around £200m in losses. Before being relegated from the EPL, Sunderland's wages to turnover had climbed to around 80% which is really, really high and in no way sustainable. Anything over 70% is generally considered a bad sign that the club is hemorrhaging money. He didn't really bankroll the team the last year in the EPL because of how bad the financial losses were abd the fact that they were barely scraping by. In the Championship they had arguably the highest wage bill but really needed to move players on and bring in players that were motivated and more suited to the Championship.

The problem wasn't Short spending money. The problem was that money wasn't spent wisely. At the end, they had a lot of bad contracts that hamstrung the club. This season was the first where they were finally getting financially stable.

In regards to Khan and Fulham, he absolutely has spent money. They spent money to get promoted and then spent around £100m on new players for the EPL. Part of the issue was they tried to playing attacking football which usually doesn't work for newly promoted teams. This year in the Championship they resisted selling Mitrovic and are paying him around £40k/week. Anything over £25k/week is considered a really high wage for the Championship.

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Captain Ron

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On 4/14/2020 at 8:59 PM, Knoxtnhorn said:

I've been watching Sunderland Til I Die and I've got 3 questions about professional futbol in general. 

2.  Easy one.  Sunderland paid some guy a rather expensive 5-year contract, then got relegated.  During the transfer window, the manager was almost begging the player to transfer.  If a player is under contract, does the team not have any say-so whatsoever in what they can do with him?  If they cut/release him, I'm assuming they'd still have to pay him.  If he accepts a transfer, would Sunderland be off the hook for his transfer AND get paid by his new club?

 

On 4/15/2020 at 1:25 PM, Knoxtnhorn said:

thanks @Cheeseweasel

 

As per #2.  A player on team A is making, say, 10 mil a year on a 5 year contract.  He's good but hurt and/or not performing (like the Sunderland dude).  If team B offers to take him as a transfer, is team A's goal to negotiate a fee to try to make up for the lost money on the contract?  I.E. we owe him 50 mil, you take him for 4 years and pay us 25 mil, we eat the rest?  Is that how it works?

 

Cheese was right on about the contract. There isn't cutting a player like the NFL. Soccer contracts are like NBA, MLB or Hockey - the team owes them the full terms of that contract.

On your follow up to #2 - If a player transfers to a new team a few things need to happen:

  1. The teams need to agree to the transfer, this includes the amount of money sent from B to A to take the player.
  2. The player needs to also agree to be sold. This is their leverage in the deal, they can say they won't show up for Team B and basically kill the deal from the get go.

If the player is sold, then Team B is buying up that contract and can keep the player at those terms, thus in your example if the player is sold between seasons 2 and 3 of that deal, Team A paid them their 20 MIllion for the first 2 years, Team B either pays them for the remaining 3 years or ....

We get to optional #3 on the list above, they tear up the deal made between Team A and the player and renegotiate a completely new deal. This is what happens a lot in cases where players are sold at the end of existing deals with 1 year or less on them. Team B buys the player once they have agreed to new terms of a contract.

This can go both ways too. A lot of times you hear about teams shopping players (agreeing in principle to sell a player) and other times you hear about players shopping themselves (players coming to terms for a contract with a new team), and then the other half of the deal has to happen.

 

The new thing we see happening a bit now is players running down their contracts and then leaving on "a free" to sign with whoever they want. It gives players the chance to earn a lot more money because their new team doesn't need to pay for the transfer. In a day/age when transfers are off the charts, it's a way for players to see more money.

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Schulz2.0

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2 hours ago, Captain Ron said:

 

 

Cheese was right on about the contract. There isn't cutting a player like the NFL. Soccer contracts are like NBA, MLB or Hockey - the team owes them the full terms of that contract.

On your follow up to #2 - If a player transfers to a new team a few things need to happen:

  1. The teams need to agree to the transfer, this includes the amount of money sent from B to A to take the player.
  2. The player needs to also agree to be sold. This is their leverage in the deal, they can say they won't show up for Team B and basically kill the deal from the get go.

If the player is sold, then Team B is buying up that contract and can keep the player at those terms, thus in your example if the player is sold between seasons 2 and 3 of that deal, Team A paid them their 20 MIllion for the first 2 years, Team B either pays them for the remaining 3 years or ....

We get to optional #3 on the list above, they tear up the deal made between Team A and the player and renegotiate a completely new deal. This is what happens a lot in cases where players are sold at the end of existing deals with 1 year or less on them. Team B buys the player once they have agreed to new terms of a contract.

This can go both ways too. A lot of times you hear about teams shopping players (agreeing in principle to sell a player) and other times you hear about players shopping themselves (players coming to terms for a contract with a new team), and then the other half of the deal has to happen.

 

The new thing we see happening a bit now is players running down their contracts and then leaving on "a free" to sign with whoever they want. It gives players the chance to earn a lot more money because their new team doesn't need to pay for the transfer. In a day/age when transfers are off the charts, it's a way for players to see more money.

The correct answer here is that Knoxtnhorn needs to play Football Manager to learn the rules and find out what a time sink that game is.

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yoladu

yoladu 4,094

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On 4/14/2020 at 7:59 PM, Knoxtnhorn said:

3.  Hypothetical.  Is there ever a reason in which a fan might not want their team to be promoted to the EPL?  Or is promotion the end-all, be-all of every team?  I'm thinking of a scenario in which a team is very competitive at the Championship level but knows the team could never compete with the EPL blue-bloods.  Said fan might accept a 2nd tier life in which the team competes every week over scraping the bottom of the barrel in the EPL.

 

There is absolutely a level of this sentiment that runs through the fanbases of smaller clubs. As a fan it's not easy to find joy in getting your head bashed end week after week as you find the whole season is just a brutal slog to not get relegated. Its bad football, not fun to watch,  and you just get sick and tired of losing. It wears on you.

You start dreaming of a season where there is more winning than losing. A season where it is fun to watch your club play on the pitch. A level of sentimitality for the good ole days creeps in longing for a time when "football wasn't all about the money".

Long time supporters also romanticize the rise of the club thought the English Divisions, as they finally breaking through to the top flight. Those memories are strong and cherished, so when a club levels out to a level of mediocrity in the top flight one starts to dream of the good ole days.

Southampton (the team i follow) has suffered through 3 pretty awful seasons, so do i want them to go down? No. I am an American whose only real access is through NBC. Much more difficult to follow a team that is playing in the Championship when living in Texas. Are there some season ticket holders on the South Coast that often pine for good ole fun days in the Championship or even League 1? You better believe it.

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mdmost

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I think Bayern's dominance plays into why I never got into the Bundesliga. It seemed to be Bayern with Dortmund jumping up occasionally. Sort of like when United was dominating the EPL. I've actually seen Dortmund play live twice, beating Liverpool both times in friendlies over here. Plus there's the Klopp connection. 

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midtown

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I think Bayern's dominance plays into why I never got into the Bundesliga. It seemed to be Bayern with Dortmund jumping up occasionally. Sort of like when United was dominating the EPL. I've actually seen Dortmund play live twice, beating Liverpool both times in friendlies over here. Plus there's the Klopp connection. 

This is the reason why not to really get into any other league. La Liga. Series A. And Bundesliga all generally dominated by one or two teams. Same reason PL has so many clubs go far onto CL imo as a newb

 

Italian seems to have the second most depth. I started watching dortmund because my daughtrs club borrowed their jerseys and Pulisic but it got kind of boring

 

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Knoxtnhorn

Knoxtnhorn 6,065

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Well, after finishing up Season 2 of Sunderland, I now get why soccer managing games are a thing.  I never really paid much attention to the transfer process as mentioned in my earlier posts.  Kind of assumed it wasn't too different than what goes on in American professional sports.  Wrong.  

As per the doc... 

Spoiler

The last couple of episodes of Season 2 were hard to watch.  Some of the fans had never seen a trophy, or win at Wembley.  Add to that how well the team was doing an how close they were to being promoted.  That was tough.

 

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C-Man

C-Man 27,240

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On 4/23/2020 at 2:55 PM, mdmost said:

I will definitely take any football I can get and I've never really gotten into the Bundesliga. That's about to change. 

I admittedly haven't watched too much Bundesliga but I'll flip over occasionally in the weekend as the games are staggered from EPL matches. I've noticed that nearly every TV broadcast is shot from a much lower angle than EPL matches. I don't like it.

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midtown

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Tottenham have overtaken both Manchester United and Manchester City to be crowned the most valuable club in the Premier League, according to a study conducted by football finances expert Kieran Maguire and the University of Liverpool.

Valuations were broadly based on the 'Markham Multivariate Model' valuation method, which concludes that Spurs are now worth £2.567billion - an increase of just under £700m in a year.

Discuss

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Cheeseweasel

Cheeseweasel 26,438

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14 minutes ago, midtown said:

Tottenham have overtaken both Manchester United and Manchester City to be crowned the most valuable club in the Premier League, according to a study conducted by football finances expert Kieran Maguire and the University of Liverpool.

Valuations were broadly based on the 'Markham Multivariate Model' valuation method, which concludes that Spurs are now worth £2.567billion - an increase of just under £700m in a year.

Discuss

Well, when you go 5 years without spending any money on players, your balance sheet looks pretty solid.

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mdmost

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It's interesting seeing the replies to that being either the EPL needs to cancel the season, Brighton is lying because they risk being relegated, or the player needs to be in jail since he broke social distancing and got Covid19 when he was supposed to be sheltering in place. 

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